What is your opinion on the IDF?

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

I'm againt recruitment to the IDF because the IDF is the first army since 60 years that has committed ethnic cleansing against Jews based upon their religion and race. It starts with expulsion, and ends with extermination. The Elite uses the IDF as a tool against the Jews and silence any resistance to the Arab occupation.

[muman613]

I must say that I am deeply upset at the IDF command for their being used to remove Jews from their homes. It is shocking to see the brutality they employ against Jews and the sensitivity they employ towards arabs... There is certainly something deeply wrong with the current leadership...

[Herutnik]

I finished serveing in the IDF, and i think there's no excuse for not  recruiting and Not taking part in Israel's wars (while others are dying).
only when the time comes for removing Jews from their homes, you should alway's refuse orders and sit in the Military Prison for a month or so (I sat there as well, it's not that bad).

[Yaakov Mendel]

Tsahal definitely needs new leadership. Now, it is commanded by people with a leftist agenda and wrong defeatist attitudes, often caring more about the Arabs than about the Jews. That MUST stop.

HOWEVER, it is vital for the survival of Israel that Israeli Jews learn how to combat and be operational in the event of sudden mobilization. The Arabs may lauch an offensive any time. Israeli Jews must be ready to defend themselves. The Arabs vastly outnumber the Jews, so Israel needs to sustain an army of the people.

In my opinion, there is no excuse for not serving in the army when you call yourself a patriot. It is irresponsible, selfish and childish.

Only you have to bear in mind that you will have to refuse orders that are hostile to your fellow Jews. Also, you will likely be exposed to various forms of anti-Jewish behaviour that will upset you. It is not easy, it takes courage and dedication to go through all this. May HaShem bless all the brave Israeli Jews who serve in the Israeli army and manage to remain true and loyal Jews while they are doing their military duty. THEY are the backbone of Israel, not the deserters who make Israel an easy prey for the Arab ennemies.

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

The IDF should have no penalties for Jews who refuse to do things against Halakcha.  I think Haredi [and all Israelis] should be required to serve in the IDF, provided they do not get put in a situation that has them going against Halakcha [if its good enough for Joshua and Caleb, King David, the Maccabees, and Rabbi Akiva and Bar Kovah, its good enough for all adherents of Ultra Orthodox Judaism].  I also think that 1 year in a Yeshiva, after high school, getting a "maximal" education in Judaism should be required before going into the IDF.  The IDF needs to be purged of disgusting anti-Jewish, complete failures of human beings, and miscreants like Ehud Brog [are we sure this guy is even Jewish?!?!].

Of course I think Israel should be run by the moral Torah, Tanakh, Talmud, and Halakcha in the first place [and the Bolsheviks sent back to Europe where they belong].

[Yaakov Mendel]

I also think that 1 year in a Yeshiva, after high school, getting a "maximal" education in Judaism should be required before going into the IDF. 

Personally, I also think that the idea to provide more Jewish instruction is good, but :

1) If you add one year of Yeshiva to three years of military service, it is all getting very burdensome !

2) There are true Israeli patriots who are not religious, and it would be an infringement on their liberty of conscience to force them to attend a Yeshiva

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

I also think that 1 year in a Yeshiva, after high school, getting a "maximal" education in Judaism should be required before going into the IDF. 

Personally, I also think that the idea to provide more Jewish instruction is good, but :

1) If you add one year of Yeshiva to three years of military service, it is all getting very burdensome !

4 years of post highschool requirements may be too much.  I do waiver on the idea.  Perhaps some classes taking place in religious education as part of the entire educational experience instead.

2) There are true Israeli patriots who are not religious, and it would be an infringement on their liberty of conscience to force them to attend a Yeshiva

No one would be forced to be religious, or believe in G-d.  But as a Jew, all Jews should know what Judaism is just as much as what geometry or physics are.  A Jew without a knowledge of Judaism is not really capable of being a real a Jew.  My conscience is not bothered by making any Jew undertake a strong lesson in Judaism as an academic subject; my soul is quite troubled when I, of all people, need to explain to my fellow Jews that Abraham came before Moses, and King David came after him [and who these Jews actually were].

[/quote]

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

I finished serveing in the IDF, and i think there's no excuse for not  recruiting and Not taking part in Israel's wars (while others are dying).
only when the time comes for removing Jews from their homes, you should alway's refuse orders and sit in the Military Prison for a month or so (I sat there as well, it's not that bad).

In my opinion, there is no excuse for not serving in the army when you call yourself a patriot. It is irresponsible, selfish and childish.

Only you have to bear in mind that you will have to refuse orders that are hostile to your fellow Jews. Also, you will likely be exposed to various forms of anti-Jewish behaviour that will upset you. It is not easy, it takes courage and dedication to go through all this. May HaShem bless all the brave Israeli Jews who serve in the Israeli army and manage to remain true and loyal Jews while they are doing their military duty. THEY are the backbone of Israel, not the deserters who make Israel an easy prey for the Arab ennemies.

The IDF should have no penalties for Jews who refuse to do things against Halakcha.  I think Haredi [and all Israelis] should be required to serve in the IDF, provided they do not get put in a situation that has them going against Halakcha [if its good enough for Joshua and Caleb, King David, the Maccabees, and Rabbi Akiva and Bar Kovah, its good enough for all adherents of Ultra Orthodox Judaism].  I also think that 1 year in a Yeshiva, after high school, getting a "maximal" education in Judaism should be required before going into the IDF.  The IDF needs to be purged of disgusting anti-Jewish, complete failures of human beings, and miscreants like Ehud Brog [are we sure this guy is even Jewish?!?!].

Of course I think Israel should be run by the moral Torah, Tanakh, Talmud, and Halakcha in the first place [and the Bolsheviks sent back to Europe where they belong].

Joining the IDF is not defending Israel.

In almost every country in the Exile in which Jews lived, although the persecutions and the anti-Semitism, and
although they were second class citien - the government's army was defending the Jews the same way it was
defending other citizens.

For example, in Soviet Russia, Stalin made sure to evacuate millions (!) of Jews from the territories the Nazis
occupied, thus saving them from certain death.

Now, does it mean that a Jew who recruited to the Red Army is actually doing a "Mitzvaht Aseh" (A positive commandment)
from the Torah (Milchemet Mitzvah L'Ezrat Israel Me'yad Tzar Ha'aba Ale'hem - A Commanded war of helping Israel against
those who come to slay them)? maybe. But, it certainely doesn't mean that the Communist army was a Jewish army of which
whole purpose was to defend Jews.

It goes the same way with the IDF. Even though the IDF really prevents terrorist attacks (sometimes) and kills terrorists (sometimes),
but the army still doesn't have criterias for a Jewish army is supposed to have.

- The IDF harasses the Jews from Judea and Samaria, and works like a neutral army - if not worse.
- the IDF is the first army since the Wehrmacht that violently expelled Jews from their houses.
- the IDF is the army that abandons its soldiers to die for the sake of the idol worship called "purity of arms" (defending
Arab Nazi so-called "citizens" even with the cost of Jewish lives).
- the IDF uses massive Bolshevik brainwash on every recruiter in special education sessions.
- the IDF has Arab and Druze officers who are not loyal to the Jewish people at all.
- the Commanders of the military are apostates such as Dan Chalutz who is a declared Atheist, and do not stand for the values of the Jewish people.
- according to the rules, an Arab can also be a commander in chief (chief of general staff). Then, even the most brainwashed would have problems
calling this army a Jewish army.

If you say a Jewish army is an army of which most recrutiers who serve in it are children of a Jewish mother - then yes, you are right - the IDF is a Jewish army.

But if you say a Jewish army is a army that serves the interests of the Jewish people as they are defined in the Torah, then the answer is a big NO -
the IDF is not a Jewish army at all.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

As I already proved, the fact that an army saves Jewish lives in one way or another, doesn't mean that this army
is fighting for the interests of the Jewish people. In accordance to what we wrote above, it's not a Jewish army.
And this, is because the interets of the Jewish peope according to the Torah do not end in this or that saving action,
but in a broad and general policy, both tactical and strategical.

Therefore, an army that prevents terrorist attacks here and there, but eventually helps terror by handing out land
to the terrorists, expelling Jews, removing barriers, buliding walls and barriers as a "method" - does not fight for the interests
of the Jewish people, but against them.

We all remember how during Operation "Defensive Shield", that some of you may argue that it was good
for our security, the reserve soldiers were forced to enter Janin and commit suicide - in order to satisfy
the Left's crave for Jewish blood. Now, if you want to sacrifice your life so that the officers of the IDF will be satisfied
from its fake morals - it's your right. But demanding it for others will be arrogance.

Also, we cannot ignore the fact that the IDF works systemtically for the erasure of the Jewish identity
of the soldiers by promoting assimilation, fictitious "conversions", close friendship between Jews and Bedouines,
Druze and Russian Gentiles, and also systemtic brainwashing that promotes the ideas of the Left, service under
officers who are apostates and heretics and sometimes even complete Gentiles - all of those of course prove that
the IDF is not only an army that is not Jewish but an anti-Semitic army which is dangerous for the Jewish people
just like Hamas and Hezbollah if not more, for our Sages teach us that one who causes the other to sin is worse than
his killer.

Regarding influence from the inside - I think you really believe in what you write and there was a time I had the same view.
But throught the time I became sober, and realized that in the field, you cannot influence. There is no chance that an officer
with the "wrong" views will reach the top, and if he will - his opinions will be completely after rains of brainwashing that he will
experience during the different courses. And regarding the change of the whole leadership - there's nothing to talk about.

And it comes to the battlefield - For with wise advice thou shalt make thy war. But in an ideoogical battle you can't
screw the system. The system is built in a specific way, a specific shape - and you cannot turn it around in 180 degrees.
I hate to say it but anyone who thinks there's a way to influence from the inside - lies to himself and sins against his surrounding
and his relatives. He who chooses the path of truth, shall go through this path without tricks and wisecracks, without trying to turn the Likud
into a religious party like Feiglin.

He who starts compromising, will not know where to stop. When Rav Kahane ZTVK"L was disqualified from running to the Knesset,
he could have done something very simple: change a few words in his platform and run to the Knesset. But he couldn't do it, because
it was a matter of principles, and his son Binyamin after him didn't do it when he tried to run to the Knesset after the murder. He who
thinks you can be part of the military system without compromising on the principles of Jewish Nationalism, is making a destructive mistake.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

In short, those who recruit are the real cowards who give up on their principles - those who do not are brave and are examples of a Jew
that social pressure will never be able to defeat.

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

Earthquake, I agree with all of what you are saying.  Perhaps I should have phrased myself differently and said that instead of there being no penalty in refusing orders that go against Halakcha, simply, no orders against Halakcha should be allowed, period.  The lack of Judaism influencing IDF command is heart wrenching.  The IDF should be Torah driven, and in the current moment, thrashing Islam [and all illegal aliens] out of Israel's borders.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Earthquake, I agree with all of what you are saying.  Perhaps I should have phrased myself differently and said that instead of there being no penalty in refusing orders that go against Halakcha, simply, no orders against Halakcha should be allowed, period.  The lack of Judaism influencing IDF command is heart wrenching.  The IDF should be Torah driven, and in the current moment, thrashing Islam [and all illegal aliens] out of Israel's borders.

Hebrew for the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) is "Tzvah Haganah L'Israel" (צבא הגנה לישראל). It is named after the Communist military
organization of Ben Gurion and his fellow criminals. Just like during the British era joining the Haganah will bring no good to Jews,
so it will be now. The IDF's very existence is based on foreign, hostile idealogy which is threatening the very survival of the Jews in Judah.
Filling its ranks with suicidal, cowards with no principles who join the army that does a better Arab job than the Arabs could ever do (the Arabs
were never able to take over Jewish lands by themeselves, not Hamas, not Hezbollah, not Egypt, not Jordan, not Syria, etc) will change nothing
- they will us to be the first ones to die under the suicidal "moral" codes, if those who recruit will not surrender their principles in their hearts.
of "purity of arms" - for the sake of Arab imperialism and Jewish defeatism.

Hence, my opposition of wasting time and Jewish lives by recruiting.

[Yaakov Mendel]

Earthquake,

I agree with you that the IDF is not a Jewish army.

But, before a true Kahanist movement takes power in Israel and turns Tsahal into a Jewish army, Israel still needs trained soldiers who can defend the country if an Arab aggression occurs. Desertion is not an option.

[MassuhDGoodName]

A huge dilemma, made all the more confusing by one's choice of terminology used whenever anyone refers to "Israel" in speaking or writing.

The term "Israel" is used loosely in daily conversation and in the media to refer to the Jewish People of the Bible ('the Children of Israel') and their modern day descendants.

However, Eretz Yisrael "The Land of Israel" is according to Torah the land and territory gifted by Ha'Shem to the Jewish People.

Medinat Yisrael, Hebrew for The State of Israel , is NOT Eretz Yisrael (The Land of Israel), and neither is it Am Yisrael - and these three terms are not interchangeable when speaking about or referring to "Israel".

The terms state and nation-state are relatively modern ideas used to define and speak of modern day nations as we know them today.

Such ideas did not exist in ancient times during the days of the Second Temple and earlier.

So when speaking or writing about the IDF (Israel Defence Forces), almost everyone assumes that it is the Army of the Jewish People fighting to defend The Land of Israel!

Not so, however! -- The IDF is the ARMY OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

"The STATE of Israel", a modern State in the Middle East, is referred to every day by almost all Jews and non-Jews with their use of the word "Israel".

The same word, "Israel", is also used by the same Jews and non-Jews when casually referring to all Jewish People as well as when referring to the land Torah defines as belonging to the Jewish People ("from the Nile to the Euphrates").

NOW...IF THOSE POSTERS DISCUSSING THE IDF IN THE POST TO WHICH THIS COMMENT REFERS, WILL RE-WRITE THE ENTIRE POST TOGETHER WITH ALL OF ITS COMMENTS AND ARGUMENTS, AND USE THE CORRECT TERMINOLOGY ABOVE WHEN REFERRING TO DISTINCT ENTITIES WHICH ARE NOT IDENTICAL, FAR LESS CONFUSION OF THE DILEMMA POSED BY THE IDF WILL BE THE RESULT.

HOWEVER, THE BASIC DILEMMA ITSELF, WHILE BETTER UNDERSTOOD, WILL REMAIN.

AND THIS IS BECAUSE THE IDF IS THE ARMY OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL AND NOT THE ARMY OF EITHER AM YISRAEL OR ERETZ YISRAEL!

The largest part of this confusion and dilemma results because Medinat Yisrael as the State Entity creation of the Zionist Political Party, intentionally expropriated the terms and symbols of Eretz Yisrael, Am Yisrael, and Torah Judaism and incorporated them in such a manner as to lend a false sense of "Torah Judaism credibility" to its State apparatus and ideology; both of which are democratic/secular in nature and only indirectly related to the Jewish People and the Jewish religion.

In short:  Jews are led to believe that aliyah to the State of Israel is equivalent to achieving The Redemption in Eretz Yisrael, and therefore tend to believe that the IDF is a Jewish Army defending the Jewish People inside the Land of the Jews, when it fact it is an Army full of Jews fighting to defend the State of Israel and Israeli Government within lands and borders yet to be recognized by the UN and International Community.

That same Israeli State defines itself both as a socialistic western style democracy as well as a Jewish State - the two concepts being mutually incompatible!

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Almost forgot, the 2 almost last massages I wrote are a part of an article written by a Hebrew administrator, Ha'Elkoshi.

המביא דברים בשם אומרו מביא גאולה לעולם

[Christian Zionist]

Supposed to be G-d's army but it lacks the Zionist vision.

Its Main Doctrine - Basic Point # 2 says:

Defensive on the strategic level, no territorial ambitions...

http://dover.idf.il/IDF/English/about/doctrine/main_doctrine.htm

No territorial ambitions?  How can G-d use this army to liberate all the lands between Nile and Euphrates?

Technologically it is the best in the world composed of world's most brilliant men and women.  They are the ones who rush to the corners of earth to help suffering humanity in the event of natural calamities.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "How can G-d use this army to liberate all the lands between Nile and Euphrates? "

Easily.

The same way it used this army to defeat all the Arab armies in 1967 and possess the Sinai, Gaza, Golan, all of Jerusalem, and Judea and Samaria.

Whatever G-d wants, G-d is going to get, and He really isn't interested in what others think about it! 

                                                                           

[muman613]

Re:  "How can G-d use this army to liberate all the lands between Nile and Euphrates? "

Easily.

The same way it used this army to defeat all the Arab armies in 1967 and possess the Sinai, Gaza, Golan, all of Jerusalem, and Judea and Samaria.

Whatever G-d wants, G-d is going to get, and He really isn't interested in what others think about it! 

                                                                           

"What G-d Wants, G-d Gets!" is a Roger Waters {Pink Floyd bassist} song from the Amused to Death album..

I haven't listened to RW for a while because he turned out to be a anti-zionist antisemite...

But the lyrics are interesting non-the-less...

http://www.lyricsdepot.com/roger-waters/what-god-wants-pt-1.html

Part I
What God wants God gets God help us all
What God wants God gets
The kid in the corner looked at the priest
And fingered his pale blue Japanese guitar
The priest said
God wants goodness
God wants light
God wants mayhem
God wants a clean fight
What God wants God gets
Don't look so surprised
It's only dogma
The alien prophet cried
The beetle and the springbok
Took the Bible from its hook
The monkey in the corner
Wrote the lesson in his book
What God wants God gets God help us all
God wants peace
God wants war
God wants famine
God wants chain stores
What God wants God gets
God wants sedition
God wants sex
God wants freedom
God wants semtex
What God wants God gets
Don't look so surprised
I'm only joking
The alien comic cried
The [censored] and hyena
Took the feather from its hook
The monkey in the corner
Wrote the joke down in his book
What God wants God gets
God wants boarders
God wants crack
God wants rainfall
God wants wetbacks
What God wants God gets
God wants voodoo
God wants shrines
God wants law
God wants organized crime
God wants crusade
God wants jihad
God wants good
God wants bad
What God wants God gets

Part II
Do you believe in a better day
Do you have faith in a golden way
If you do then we must come together this day
Come together as one united
Television audience
Brought together by the sound of my voice
United united financially united socially
United spiritually and all possible ways
Through the power of money
And the power of prayers
What God wants God gets God help us all
God wants dollars
God wants cents
God wants pounds shillings and pence
God wants guilders
God wants Kroner
God wants Swiss francs
God wants French francs
Oui il veut des francs francais
God wants escudos
God wants pesetas
Don't send lira
God don't want small potatoes
God wants small towns
God wants pain
God wants clean up rock campaigns
God wants windows
God wants solutions
God wants TV
God wants contributions
What God wants God gets God help us all
God wants silver
God wants gold
God wants his secret
Never to be told
God wants gigolos
God wants giraffes
God wants politics
God wants a good laugh
What God wants God gets God help us all
God wants friendship
God wants fame
God wants credit
God wants blame
God wants poverty
God wants wealth
God wants insurance
God wants to cover himself What God wants
God gets God help us all

Part III
Don't be afraid it's only business
The alien prophet sighed
The vulture and the magpie took
The cash box from its hook
The monkey in the corner wrote
The figures in his book
Crazed the checkout lady's fingers
Flash across the till
The captain posts
The menu for the day
And in banks across the world
Christians Moslems Hindus Jews
And people of every
Race creed colour tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog
Neatly make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
Christ it's freezing inside
The veteran cries
The hyenas break cover
And stream through the meadow
And the fog rolls in
Though his bottle of gin
So he picks up a stone
That looks like a bone
And the bullets fly
And the rivers run dry
And the fat girls sigh
And the network anchor persons lie
And the soldier's alone
In the video zone
But the monkey's not watching
He's slipped out to the kitchen
To pile the dishes
And answer the phone

[The One and Only Mo]

Israel is way too left wing as it is.....as if we didn't already know that.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Right now, my opinion is that it is a joke.

[TruthSpreader]

The IDF is a joke. Not Jewish or Zionist at all.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

While I don't agree with the animals running the army, it is the only vehicle that can currently fulfill the milchemet mitzvah that is binding on every Jew right now against the Arabs, and I would be happy to some day participate in fulfilling that mitzvah even if it is under these criminals' direction.   There is always conscientious objection to certain orders, and I am willing to sit in prison for that, and there are ways around their evil.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

2) There are true Israeli patriots who are not religious, and it would be an infringement on their liberty of conscience to force them to attend a Yeshiva

True patriots.  Truly ignorant ones.

The character of army service changing to incorporate Jewish eduction into its program would be very positive, and it's certainly NOT an infringement of liberty more than any other govt program, govt sponsored education etc etc.   It really doesn't make sense to make anything associated with Judaism into some kind of taboo under the umbrella of "religion!" ooh spooky.   If they can teach you how to load a weapon, they can force you to clean the base and peel potatoes, and none of these things are infringement on your liberties, then teaching you something about your heritage and why you're even there in the army in the first place - that they can also do.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

In short:  Jews are led to believe that aliyah to the State of Israel is equivalent to achieving The Redemption in Eretz Yisrael,

Making aliyah to the state of Israel (as per the state requirements and specifications for that process they term "aliyah" - a borrowed term) indeed is one of several ways to fulfill the Biblical commandment to "make aliyah" meaning to go up to live in the land of Israel.   So if someone thinks that by going to live in the state of Israel, even by "making aliyah" in the political sense that the state today defines that, is achieving redemption for themself and they achieve the actual mitzvah of aliyah, then that is true.  They are correct in thinking that.   Of course, there are ways to make aliyah the mitzvah without making "aliyah" the process outlined by the state of Israel.   Some people live as residents in Eretz Yisrael, without full citizenship to the state of Israel.

to defend the State of Israel and Israeli Government within lands and borders yet to be recognized by the UN and International Community.

This (the bold) part matters why?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Also, the idea that there was no notion of a nation-state is hardly relevant.  In those days, political entity was viewed in terms of monarchy and kingdom.   Yet the sovereign entity, however you term it, did indeed exist, and the Jewish sovereign entity was indeed a matter of great importance just as it is today.