Enough with the Catholic Bashing

[Dr. Dan]

Respectfully, it's not right to do this out in the open.  If both of you need to sort out your misunderstandings do so privately, please.

Ruby,

You started thsi thread and you bash plenty of people.  You're just selective in who you go after, Muman being your all time favorite.  I dont buy it--even a little bit.

I can't remember Ruby ever bashed anyone except for trolls.

I posted something wrong that caused hurt feelings but I'm trying to figure out what it was with some private messages. I think I did do something wrong but I'm not sure exactly what it was yet.

I don't think you did do something wrong, Rubystars.

JTFenthusiast - Why was it wrong for Ruby to start this thread? 

Being told that you are worse then your worst enemy...it's not a nice feeling.
At least Ruby is a decent enough person to realize how hurtful that is.
That is why she put herself out there to defend the Catholic members.
Don't you think something is wrong when you can drive a staunch ally away?
You can't have a better friend, or ally, then MasterWolf. 
I think Chaim can vouch for MasterWolf on that front.

Muman, in my opinion, should not presume to question how I practice my faith.  What doctrines of the church I choose to follow.  I would never do that to him.  I would never make fun of his beliefs.  A word like Jeebus (which he uses often) is offensive to Christians.  I can tell you that.  Maybe other members are afraid to say that.  The last time, I just tried to ignore that he wrote it that way.  Maybe, just maybe, that is why people are on the offensive when it comes to him.

Now...I know that a truce was called within the last few posts of this thread.  I do realize that.  Still, I had to speak my peace.  Sorry.

Thank you, Ruby.  I appreciate that you stuck your neck out to defend the Catholic friends you have on the forum.  BullCat

BullCat3,

I have explained why I said what I said. Concerning the issues you bring up, we can discuss them in private messages rather than continue this thread. I do not do things in order to offend others. I say things which I believe my faith teaches me to do. I am sorry if I have said things which irritate you.

I do not believe that your faith instructs you to write Jeebus.
I have many Jewish friends.  We are respectful of each other.  They would never think to do that.  So I can't understand why you want me to believe that is part of your faith.
Not one of them ever told me that their religion expected them to make fun of mine.
In fact, I never heard the expression Jeebus until I met you.
I live in New York where there are a lot of Jewish people.
I don't really use private message.  If we have something to say to each other, it is best out in the open.

[muman613]

I'm not sure how this thread turned into a Serbs vs. non-Serbs thread. Boyana and voo-yoo, I don't know why you two feel the need to leave. You can have whatever opinion of Catholicism you desire, and neither of you have ever caused trouble. Nobody has a problem with you and Serbs in general thinking the Vatican is evil. This was never about you to begin with and I'm not sure why you feel that it is. Of course Chaim and the rest of us, Catholic members included, know what was done to Serbs in the name of Catholicism.

What this is really about is one poster here who is constantly making snide insults against Christians in general (and yes, Orthodox are included within that), and then pretends to have accidentally misspoken. If you want that person to win, go ahead and leave. If you don't, continue to post at JTF.

I didn't say I wanted to leave. That would be only in case if Chaim says that the Pope and his organization are not to be spoken of in negative context. I wouldn't accept that. That doesn't mean I would bash Catholic theology. For me, the Pope is a politician.
About Muman, I don't have a problem with him. He wouldn't speak about "Jeebus" if some Christian members didn't feel the the need to constantly mention Christian holidays, what Jesus said etc. This is after all, a Jewish forum. There are many other theological forums, this one is primarily political. And let's be honest here, Jews have every right to be suspicious about Christianity. 2000 years of history prove that. As I see it, every non Jew is here to show support as an individual, not as a member of some church or a nation, because churches and nations don't support Israel and Jews.
 

What?
Muman brings up Christianity and Catholics more then any Catholic member of the forum does.
Remember there were Christian members here long before Muman, and some other agitators, and there was never this level of tension.
So stop it.

BC3,

You will note that it was not I who started this topic, nor the other topic on Catholicism, nor the topic about the Pope....How am I the one to blame for this? My original response has already been duplicated 2-3 times in this thread and I will not duplicate it again. I said what I said, it was not intended to be offensive to anyone...

I do regret calling into question the religiousity of Catholics. I do not intend to tell them what a good Catholic is. I drew a comparison to what my opinion of the reform-movement in Judaism is to those who do not abide by the teachings of the Church. But I am not the final judge or jury on this. From my Jewish perspective I do not decide if the Torah is right or wrong, I judge myself according to the absolute measure of the Torah. Sometimes {many times} I am lacking, and many times I fulfill the demands of the Torah. In those areas I am lacking I seek to strengthen myself, in those I have observed I try to make myself stronger in understanding. I do not discard parts of the Torah which I find inconvenient to my own personal life. I try to fit my life into the Torah perspective.

[JTFenthusiast2]

JTFenthusiast - your last post is way over the line.  Very unlike you.  I don't consider you mean spirited.  You are way more intelligent then that.

 If he can dish it out, so can I.  I dont hear any of you saying anything when he drives other members away or makes our forum look to the outsider like a Jewish version of a Fred Phelps' get together. Too bad if he doesnt like it.  It's the LEAST he f-ing deserves. Sorry, but I've had enough from this punk.

[cjd]

You started thsi thread and you bash plenty of people.  You're just selective in who you go after, Muman being your all time favorite.  I dont buy it--even a little bit.

Says the poster who loves to bash heterosexuals. 

   DBF, I know that when you don't take your medications, you become psychotic.  Please take your meds as prescribed.  But assuming you were telling the truth (you are a consummate liar as Muman points out), if I bashed heterosexuals, what would that have to do with you??  You'd be all in the clear as far as I, and anyone else who can read a book, can see.  You and one or two other members here know more about homosexuality than anyone, any of us  have ever met combined.  I mean you constantly talk about 'butch sodomites' vs. 'effeminate queers.' Let's face it girl: you know more about faggotry than 99.999 percent of the population!!!  What is with that brother?  Do you get your knickers in a twist when your monthly issue of playgirl is late?  Come on, your secret is safe (well not really) with your brothas and sistas at JTF, mm hmmm

JTFenthusiast2 I have to say your post here is very disappointing... This is not like you to post this way... DBF has been here with us for years... He has always been a good member...What your saying about him is really not nice... Its very bad to cast that sort of aspersion on someone you really don't know... DBF may have a posting style that is different then other members here however I don't see what that has to do with his personal life... I think you owe DBF an apology.

[TheViper]

Im sorry but I dont respect Catholicism. History shows the Jews that the Catholic church is our enemy. How many Jews were sent to their deaths by Catholic priests, how many Inquisitions, how many popes who lecture about Jews being devils and that the church replaced the Jewish people as the Chosen nation?

I do not forgive the church. I do not hold what the church did to the Jewish people against those who may have been born into this religion. But I cannot understand how someone can call themselves Catholic yet reject the basic tenets of the religion? This is like those non-Orthodox Jews who try to tell the world what Judaism is... Those Catholics who do not listen to the pope are not good Catholics.... Those who do not follow the pronouncements of the person deemed by the Catholic religion to be the mouthpiece of their messiah and gods..

I will condemn the church to everlasting suffering...

Muman, by you saying that you have no respect for Catholicism it means you have no respect for Catholics in general.
When people read that first sentence they will get the impression you hate Catholics because they believe in Catholism.
When I first read this answer from you that was the feeling I got that you hate Catholics.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

You started thsi thread and you bash plenty of people.  You're just selective in who you go after, Muman being your all time favorite.  I dont buy it--even a little bit.

Says the poster who loves to bash heterosexuals. 

   DBF, I know that when you don't take your medications, you become psychotic.  Please take your meds as prescribed.  But assuming you were telling the truth (you are a consummate liar as Muman points out), if I bashed heterosexuals, what would that have to do with you??  You'd be all in the clear as far as I, and anyone else who can read a book, can see.  You and one or two other members here know more about homosexuality than anyone, any of us  have ever met combined.  I mean you constantly talk about 'butch sodomites' vs. 'effeminate queers.' Let's face it girl: you know more about faggotry than 99.999 percent of the population!!!  What is with that brother?  Do you get your knickers in a twist when your monthly issue of playgirl is late?  Come on, your secret is safe (well not really) with your brothas and sistas at JTF, mm hmmm

JTFenthusiast2 I have to say your post here is very disappointing... This is not like you to post this way... DBF has been here with us for years... He has always been a good member...What your saying about him is really not nice... Its very bad to cast that sort of aspersion on someone you really don't know... DBF may have a posting style that is different then other members here however I don't see what that has to do with his personal life... I think you owe DBF an apology.

Perhaps, but DBF reacts this way to him all the time.   What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

I suggest both members work out their conflict through private message where there is less tendency to "flame" one another and it is more geared toward true understanding of each other.   Both should cease the attacks.

[Dr. Dan]

Lock this thread somebody...and throw away the key...

[JTFenthusiast2]

You started thsi thread and you bash plenty of people.  You're just selective in who you go after, Muman being your all time favorite.  I dont buy it--even a little bit.

Says the poster who loves to bash heterosexuals. 

   DBF, I know that when you don't take your medications, you become psychotic.  Please take your meds as prescribed.  But assuming you were telling the truth (you are a consummate liar as Muman points out), if I bashed heterosexuals, what would that have to do with you??  You'd be all in the clear as far as I, and anyone else who can read a book, can see.  You and one or two other members here know more about homosexuality than anyone, any of us  have ever met combined.  I mean you constantly talk about 'butch sodomites' vs. 'effeminate queers.' Let's face it girl: you know more about faggotry than 99.999 percent of the population!!!  What is with that brother?  Do you get your knickers in a twist when your monthly issue of playgirl is late?  Come on, your secret is safe (well not really) with your brothas and sistas at JTF, mm hmmm

JTFenthusiast2 I have to say your post here is very disappointing... This is not like you to post this way... DBF has been here with us for years... He has always been a good member...What your saying about him is really not nice... Its very bad to cast that sort of aspersion on someone you really don't know... DBF may have a posting style that is different then other members here however I don't see what that has to do with his personal life... I think you owe DBF an apology.  

 I dont owe him shi* and shame on you for taking up for him.  

[JTFenthusiast2]

Thank you KWBRT.  That's exactly right!  DBF and his closet buddies do just that.

[muman613]

Im sorry but I dont respect Catholicism. History shows the Jews that the Catholic church is our enemy. How many Jews were sent to their deaths by Catholic priests, how many Inquisitions, how many popes who lecture about Jews being devils and that the church replaced the Jewish people as the Chosen nation?

I do not forgive the church. I do not hold what the church did to the Jewish people against those who may have been born into this religion. But I cannot understand how someone can call themselves Catholic yet reject the basic tenets of the religion? This is like those non-Orthodox Jews who try to tell the world what Judaism is... Those Catholics who do not listen to the pope are not good Catholics.... Those who do not follow the pronouncements of the person deemed by the Catholic religion to be the mouthpiece of their messiah and gods..

I will condemn the church to everlasting suffering...

Muman, by you saying that you have no respect for Catholicism it means you have no respect for Catholics in general.
When people read that first sentence they will get the impression you hate Catholics because they believe in Catholism.
When I first read this answer from you that was the feeling I got that you hate Catholics.

I don't hate Catholics. But it is true that from my position there are some very important theological problems with the entire history of Catholic theology. Now I don't want to re-iterate the differences again. But I have related an incident {in previous posts} when I was a young boy a friend of mine, who was Catholic, told me that he was taught that Jews go to hell and are from the devil. I was shocked at that age to learn that they were being taught to hate Jews. When I grew up and wondered why there was so much hatred against the Jewish people it made sense to me, that antisemitism is sometimes taught in the churches.

Now many years have gone by. And I too want to believe that the Church wants to reconcile with the Jewish people. But things are not progressing very quickly.

I agree that the many righteous Catholics who are JTF members are a testament to the good nature of some Catholics. I am very honored to know you and I appreciate the effort you spend to support JTF and the Jewish people. If only these sentiments could make it up to the leaders of the Church who have a lot of resources at their disposal...

It is very sad that we have these kinds of distractions every few months...

[cjd]

You started thsi thread and you bash plenty of people.  You're just selective in who you go after, Muman being your all time favorite.  I dont buy it--even a little bit.

Says the poster who loves to bash heterosexuals. 

   DBF, I know that when you don't take your medications, you become psychotic.  Please take your meds as prescribed.  But assuming you were telling the truth (you are a consummate liar as Muman points out), if I bashed heterosexuals, what would that have to do with you??  You'd be all in the clear as far as I, and anyone else who can read a book, can see.  You and one or two other members here know more about homosexuality than anyone, any of us  have ever met combined.  I mean you constantly talk about 'butch sodomites' vs. 'effeminate queers.' Let's face it girl: you know more about faggotry than 99.999 percent of the population!!!  What is with that brother?  Do you get your knickers in a twist when your monthly issue of playgirl is late?  Come on, your secret is safe (well not really) with your brothas and sistas at JTF, mm hmmm

JTFenthusiast2 I have to say your post here is very disappointing... This is not like you to post this way... DBF has been here with us for years... He has always been a good member...What your saying about him is really not nice... Its very bad to cast that sort of aspersion on someone you really don't know... DBF may have a posting style that is different then other members here however I don't see what that has to do with his personal life... I think you owe DBF an apology.  

 I dont owe him shi* and shame on you for taking up for him.  

Well that's up to you.... Yes on this one I stand with DBF 100%

[Lisa]

Hello everyone.  I'm going to step in here and lock this thread shortly.  But first I want to say a few things.  

Muman, Chaim has said in the past that religious Jews can use the word "Yeshu" to describe Jesus.  So I don't understand the need to use the  Simpson's version of his name, especially when it bothers other members here.

As for the Roman Catholic Church, we're all in agreement about their terrible history towards the Jews and Serbs.  No one is asking you to forgive the church.  There was nothing in any thread here about that.  

Also, we Jews have our own beliefs G-d.  The Christians/Catholics have a different view.  Why beat them over the head about it?  When Bullcat3 and Viper write that they have never been taught to hate Jews, and that they were never taught to believe that Jews killed Jesus, I frankly, am inclined to believe them.  Why else do you think they would post here, and come to the JTF meetings? If the topic comes to discussing our differences, I don't understand why it can't be done respectfully.  In all my time here, I have never seen Chaim tell a Christian on the forum, or in person, that his messiah is false.  Come to think of it, I've never seen heard other religious Jews here like Kahane Was Right BT, Lubab, who is a Rabbi, Shlomo, Mishmaat, or David Ben Ze'ev Aryeh ever post such a thing here.  

In short, please don't take it out your hatred of the RCC on the individual Catholics here, who have been with us from the very beginning.  That also means not writing that they're somehow "fake" Catholics for not believing that Jews killed Jesus.  (The RCC hasn't held that position officially since the Second Vatican Council of 1964.)  

For our great Serb members, I also understand your feelings about the RCC.  No one here is attempting to white wash what the RCC has done.  But please remember what Chaim said a while back on a past Ask JTF show about conservative Catholics in the United States, and how they can potentially be allies for the struggle of Serbian independence.  

Anyway, I'll leave this thread open a bit longer, then I'm locking it, since it's already nine pages long.