The Ongoing Debates with Imerica

[Dr. Dan]

So let me get this straight guys, it's not fair to compare the slave trade to the Holocaust but it is fair to to compare the slave trade to outsourcing labor. Call me a liberal, but this type of concept just blows my mind!

I didn't read the previous posts about slave trading = Shoah...but the slave trade does not equal the Shoah.

Africa, like Europe, has many nationalities.  So what nationalities in Africa was anyone trying to commit genocide at the time of the slave trade?

[Imerica]

Erica, nobody here DEFENDS slavery. It was not nice, but do you honestly think white Southern farmers, particularly poor ones (who were the vast majority) were treated nicely either by those in power? And do you have any clue what the Irish went through? The Chinese? Or, most of all, the Native Americans?

The instances of abuse/torture/murder of slaves were really quite rare. Most white Southerners would have rather been castrated than miscegenate, for instance, using the allegation of rape. Certainly they were treated better than their fellow African and Muslim overlords ruled over them in their native land.

And no, they did not ask to come to America, but I know for a fact that they had infinitely better lives as slaves to white Southerners than as slaves to other Africans.

Oh, really? We weren't talking about the Irish or the Chinese. But since you brought it up...it was equally screwy for everyone who were enslaved. And the Native Americans were whiped out when Columbus showed up..then finished of when the British showed up and claimed the land.

And please don't minimize the suffering of black slaves. The were paid NOTHING for their work. And it wasn't until the 1800's that they started having to earn their freedom. I also want to offer that the result of the rapes by the masters were bi racial children back then. Black women have the right to choose who they want to be with now but back then they were raped all of the time because they were thought to be worthless, black, ugly whores. And with the number of slaves who didn't want to be there in the first place, there was insolence all over the place. Some who refused to be enslaved were beaten, hanged or burned. Those who ran away to be free were beaten, hanged or burned. So much for your theory that 'the instances of torture/rape/murder were quite rare'.

[cjd]

What is the truth that they were importing Black Geniuses to teach the stupid white man how to farm? By all means tell the unvarnished truth but don't give me and other people who know better revisionism.

The truth is that the white plantation owners were too lazy to farm for themselves. I liken it to people who live beyond their means then find cheap labor to do their dirty work for them. The unvarnished truth is that the slaves didn't ask to come to America. They didn't ask to be sold by their own people to people who would separate their families, beat them, rape the women, hang and burn them. The unvarnished truth is that there were people against slavery (otherwise there wouldn't have been any free states in America) but it took 400 years for slavery to be abolished.

And I don't remember who said this but "This all was an accepted way of life and the way things were done back then. "... that's a crazed statement right there. If I'd told you that rape should be acceptable because it happens, what would you say, cjd?

Very few whites owned signifigant numbers of slaves, only the top three percent of Southern Farmers could afford to have a plantation run by slaves. Most farmers had to make do with paid labor and working themselves.

Violence against slaves was actually rare, provided they didnt run away. It may sound callous but hurting your slave would be like taking a sledgehammer to your tractor, you would be hurting the very source of your livelihood.

And you should know that though the vast majority of black slaves that were sent out of Africa went to the Arab world their are very few blacks in the Arabs world. why? Because Muslims castrate their male slaves, something Whites never did.

I did mention that there were free states. I'm not saying that every white person owned slaves. I'm putting the blame where it belongs.

I agree with some of what you say here but plantation owners weren't lazy they ran farms that needed armies of people to work they needed cheap labor.
I said that slavery was an accepted way of life back then. It wasn't against the law and it was an accepted way of life back then. I read accounts where the slave holders had a distaste for it but economics prevailed in most slave states till after the civil war.
Slavery is  not the same as rape it may be as evil or worse  but its was not against the law back then. Slaves were considered property of the slave holder and as such were subjected to the whims of their owners.  Rape is against the law in modern society.  Its comparing apples and oranges. Once again Imerica I have no love for the slave period that America went through I feel it left  a very bad scar on the country.

[Imerica]

What is the truth that they were importing Black Geniuses to teach the stupid white man how to farm? By all means tell the unvarnished truth but don't give me and other people who know better revisionism.

The truth is that the white plantation owners were too lazy to farm for themselves. I liken it to people who live beyond their means then find cheap labor to do their dirty work for them. The unvarnished truth is that the slaves didn't ask to come to America. They didn't ask to be sold by their own people to people who would separate their families, beat them, rape the women, hang and burn them. The unvarnished truth is that there were people against slavery (otherwise there wouldn't have been any free states in America) but it took 400 years for slavery to be abolished.

And I don't remember who said this but "This all was an accepted way of life and the way things were done back then. "... that's a crazed statement right there. If I'd told you that rape should be acceptable because it happens, what would you say, cjd?

Very few whites owned signifigant numbers of slaves, only the top three percent of Southern Farmers could afford to have a plantation run by slaves. Most farmers had to make do with paid labor and working themselves.

Violence against slaves was actually rare, provided they didnt run away. It may sound callous but hurting your slave would be like taking a sledgehammer to your tractor, you would be hurting the very source of your livelihood.

And you should know that though the vast majority of black slaves that were sent out of Africa went to the Arab world their are very few blacks in the Arabs world. why? Because Muslims castrate their male slaves, something Whites never did.

I did mention that there were free states. I'm not saying that every white person owned slaves. I'm putting the blame where it belongs.

I agree with some of what you say here but plantation owners weren't lazy they ran farms that needed armies of people to work they needed cheap labor.
I said that slavery was an accepted way of life back then. It wasn't against the law and it was an accepted way of life back then. I read accounts where the slave holders had a distaste for it but economics prevailed in most slave states till after the civil war.
Slavery is  not the same as rape it may be as evil or worse  but its was not against the law back then. Slaves were considered property of the slave holder and as such were subjected to the whims of their owners.  Rape is against the law in modern society.  Its comparing apples and oranges. Once again Imerica I have no love for the slave period that America went through I feel it left  a very bad scar on the country.

The horrific fact is that slavery of any kind by anyone against anyone is evil. I wasn't likening slavery to rape but I was saying that in slavery against blacks, it was a common practice that masters were into. It dosen't mean that the person being raped was all for it jumping for joy that some sweaty person came after them in the night. That's just crazy.

[Allen-T]

It's total BS that slave owners raped the slave women. Do you know what the current statistic is for white men in jail in the US for raping black women? 0% which means literally less than 10 if any in the whole country. Of course the black geniuses will all say "well dat's because dey lets all da white rapists goes free" but we know better. Sure, some black slave women probably willingly had sex with the slave owners for preferential treatment, but this notion of white men raping these women is total BS and current stats prove this is a totally ridiculous concept to begin with, whitey raping THEM.    

[ftf]

I'll be disagreeing with you here Allen, I've seen a documentary about slavery  in which accounts were given of slaves being raped.

[Allen-T]

I'll be disagreeing with you here Allen, I've seen a documentary about slavery  in which accounts were given of slaves being raped.

And lies don't get told in documentaries? Use some common sense and more importantly white men raping black women goes against every known psychological profile of the mindset of a rapist. A minority of attractive ones had sex for benefits. Use common sense, why would a wealthy white man who can get attractive white women choose instead to force himself on something that looks like Tracey Chapman? No, BS. Let blacks pish and moan all they want, that's just an attempt to bring us down to the animal level of black men.

[Allen-T]

Imerica, I am commenting on what other people are saying here. If you address me personally I am deleting your posts as your answers to me are idiotic. You just talk over topics without reason.  

[Imerica]

Imerica, I am commenting on what other people are saying here. If you address me personally I am deleting your posts as your answers to me are idiotic. You just talk over topics without reason.  

I was the first person here to bring up the dispicable acts of slavery...Daniel followed. Delete my posts all you want.

But check out this website...
http://www.saidit.org/archives/nov00/rememberthis.html

"During slavery, white men's rape of female slaves was explicitly legal. During colonialism, white men's rape of Native American women was rampant, and went unpunished by white law. Men's rape of their own wives was explicitly legal until the 1980s, and still remains legal in some circumstances".

It offers proof that there was rape during slavery times. My responses would only be idiotic if I added the "ummm-hmmm" crap you speak of in this site. I think my responses were well thought-out.

[Allen-T]

Imerica, I am commenting on what other people are saying here. If you address me personally I am deleting your posts as your answers to me are idiotic. You just talk over topics without reason.  

I was the first person here to bring up the dispicable acts of slavery...Daniel followed. Delete my posts all you want.

But check out this website...
http://www.saidit.org/archives/nov00/rememberthis.html

It offers proof that there was rape during slavery times. My responses would only be idiotic if I added the "ummm-hmmm" crap you speak of in this site. I think my responses were well thought-out.

Thank you for proving my point, I should listen to Angela communist Davis for my historical information? Thank you. I think I will now go research history as recycled by Spike Lee. And anyone that would quote Angela Davis would certainly quote equally worthless trash.   

[Bannedfan]

And please don't minimize the suffering of black slaves. The were paid NOTHING for their work.

I suspect nothing except room, board, and health care is what you meant to say. 

they were raped all of the time because they were thought to be worthless, black, ugly whores.

And your evidence for this is... ? 

And with the number of slaves who didn't want to be there in the first place, there was insolence all over the place.

Do you think Chinese workers liked being enslaved on the railroads or poor NORTHERN (!) whites liked having their lungs slowly rot in the coal mines for incomes that today would be comparable to what child laborers earn in Bangladesh?

Some who refused to be enslaved were beaten, hanged or burned. Those who ran away to be free were beaten, hanged or burned.

Again, evidence?

So much for your theory that 'the instances of torture/rape/murder were quite rare'.

So much for what? So much for us ever having hopes of finding a black person who does not expect us to recoil, with jaws agape, at the unique and unmatched sufferings of other blacks? You are right, Erica. It was infinitely worse that slaves got whipped from time to time than that 6 1/2 million Jews got burned alive, gassed with insecticide, packed like sardines into boxcars filled with lime, etc. Making blacks work in the fields is much more evil than going through black villages, killing all the men and boys and raping all the women, like the Sudanese Arabs are doing right now. You've convinced me that blacks are the only race in the world capable of suffering and being oppressed. 

[Imerica]

And please don't minimize the suffering of black slaves. The were paid NOTHING for their work.

I suspect nothing except room, board, and health care is what you meant to say. 

they were raped all of the time because they were thought to be worthless, black, ugly whores.

And your evidence for this is... ? 

And with the number of slaves who didn't want to be there in the first place, there was insolence all over the place.

Do you think Chinese workers liked being enslaved on the railroads or poor NORTHERN (!) whites liked having their lungs slowly rot in the coal mines for incomes that today would be comparable to what child laborers earn in Bangladesh?

Some who refused to be enslaved were beaten, hanged or burned. Those who ran away to be free were beaten, hanged or burned.

Again, evidence?

So much for your theory that 'the instances of torture/rape/murder were quite rare'.

So much for what? So much for us ever having hopes of finding a black person who does not expect us to recoil, with jaws agape, at the unique and unmatched sufferings of other blacks? You are right, Erica. It was infinitely worse that slaves got whipped from time to time than that 6 1/2 million Jews got burned alive, gassed with insecticide, packed like sardines into boxcars filled with lime, etc. Making blacks work in the fields is much more evil than going through black villages, killing all the men and boys and raping all the women, like the Sudanese Arabs are doing right now. You've convinced me that blacks are the only race in the world capable of suffering and being oppressed. 

The slaves and Jews's suffering was the same. Horrific and terrible... AND needless.

I offered proof of rape in slavery times  in the article i posted. But treat it the way you want to though. At least I read what websites you all post.

[Daniel]

I'll be disagreeing with you here Allen, I've seen a documentary about slavery  in which accounts were given of slaves being raped.

And lies don't get told in documentaries? Use some common sense and more importantly white men raping black women goes against every known psychological profile of the mindset of a rapist. A minority of attractive ones had sex for benefits. Use common sense, why would a wealthy white man who can get attractive white women choose instead to force himself on something that looks like Tracey Chapman? No, BS. Let blacks pish and moan all they want, that's just an attempt to bring us down to the animal level of black men.

Not only is this post extremely racist, it defies common sense. Rape has nothing to do with wealth, status, or attraction. It has to do with control, power, and violence. So your claim that a wealthy white man who can get an attractive white women would never rape an ugly black woman holds absolutely no water.

[Daniel]

So let me get this straight guys, it's not fair to compare the slave trade to the Holocaust but it is fair to to compare the slave trade to outsourcing labor. Call me a liberal, but this type of concept just blows my mind!

I didn't read the previous posts about slave trading = Shoah...but the slave trade does not equal the Shoah.

Africa, like Europe, has many nationalities.  So what nationalities in Africa was anyone trying to commit genocide at the time of the slave trade?

The issue of nationalities isn't the critical issue here. The most critical issue is the total number of "humans" that were killed. I have a problem with some blacks who say, "Oh, why are you bitching about 6 million when 10 million were killed in the slave trade." I also have a problem with Jews who state, "Oh, the slave trade can't be compared to the holocaust. The blacks had it so much better in the slave trade than the Jews did in the holocaust and they weren't systematically slaughtered." This is not a contest about who suffered the worst. It's about realizing that both of us have suffered gross inequities and instead of trying to compete about who suffered worse and trying to scapegoat each other, we should be sypathizing and working together with each other.

Also, the point I was trying to make is that the Holocaust is much more comparible to the slave trade than trying to compare outsourcing labor to the slave trade which cannot be reasonably compared.

[Daniel]

We abhor holocaust deniers. But it seems like some of you are denying things that took place during the slave trade. That's just as abominable.

[cjd]

We abhor holocaust deniers. But it seems like some of you are denying things that took place during the slave trade. That's just as abominable.

As I said  before how does one thing have anything to do with the other.

[Daniel]

We abhor holocaust deniers. But it seems like some of you are denying things that took place during the slave trade. That's just as abominable.

As I said  before how does one thing have anything to do with the other.

They were both dispicable human events which caused massive amounts of suffering and loss of life. If you don't want to see any similarities between the two, then that's your right. But the point I was trying to make was to ftf who was arguing that slavery is comparible to outsourcing of labor to which I was responding that slavery is more comparible to the holocaust than it is to outsourcing of labor.

[ftf]

I wasn't saying it was on the same level as outsourcing of labour, I just said it was based on the same idea, making more money with less effort.

[cjd]

Although repugnant to us slavery was acceptable and legal in its day. The attempted extermination of an entire people was not in 1940.

[cjd]

I wasn't saying it was on the same level as outsourcing of labour, I just said it was based on the same idea, making more money with less effort.

Stick to your guns you were correct in what you said.

[Daniel]

I wasn't saying it was on the same level as outsourcing of labour, I just said it was based on the same idea, making more money with less effort.

I understand what you're saying and where you're coming from. I'm just stating that the consequences of the two are drastically different. That's all.

[ftf]

I wasn't saying it was on the same level as outsourcing of labour, I just said it was based on the same idea, making more money with less effort.

Stick to your guns you were correct in what you said.

THis is what I said, if it were interpreted to mean anything different that was not my intention.

[cjd]

I wasn't saying it was on the same level as outsourcing of labour, I just said it was based on the same idea, making more money with less effort.

Stick to your guns you were correct in what you said.

THis is what I said, if it were interpreted to mean anything different that was not my intention.

That was the impression I got from it when you said it the first time. You said nothing wrong. Do you honestly think that the people are working under ideal conditions in China and in some of the other backwater places they outsource work to. Its slavery just the same it may not have all the humanitarian abuses they had 200 years ago but its still borderline slavery.

[Daniel]

How did this whole debate get started anyway? I think it was when a couple of you made remarks to Erica that she should be thankful for the slave trade and that it was the greatest thing to happened for American Blacks. I at lesat hope most of us can reach a consensus that that is preposterous.

[Daniel]

I wasn't saying it was on the same level as outsourcing of labour, I just said it was based on the same idea, making more money with less effort.

Stick to your guns you were correct in what you said.

THis is what I said, if it were interpreted to mean anything different that was not my intention.

That was the impression I got from it when you said it the first time. You said nothing wrong. Do you honestly think that the people are working under ideal conditions in China and in some of the other backwater places they outsource work to. Its slavery just the same it may not have all the humanitarian abuses they had 200 years ago but its still borderline slavery.

That is true. I guess the point I was trying to make about the black slave trade is that millions of people ended up dying. That's how it's similar to the holocaust in some respects. But I understand that you disagree with this analysis.