what if ww1 never happened?

[Meerkat]

what do you all think the world would look like today if world war 1 just never happened?

how would Israel be created without a ww1? from what i heard, the ottoman empire was on its way to hell by than, so that would make Eretz Israel free for the taking. how would the Jews reclaim it?

there would be no Soviet Union, or any communist country for that matter. there would be no nazi germany.a lot of the muslim nazi states would not exist because they would get colonized as soon as oil was found.

[muman613]

It is immaterial about what might have happened.... WWI did happen as a result of Germany's ambition...

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Germany was a Jew-hating nation regardless. Sooner or later those pink-skinned Arabs would have done some form of Shoah.

[Meerkat]

Germany was a Jew-hating nation regardless. Sooner or later those pink-skinned Arabs would have done some form of Shoah.

the reason germany went crazy during the 30s and 40s is because they got screwed over by the entente and the treaty of Versailles.

without a ww1, that might have been delayed for long enough for the jews to return home.

[muman613]

Germany was a Jew-hating nation regardless. Sooner or later those pink-skinned Arabs would have done some form of Shoah.

the reason germany went crazy during the 30s and 40s is because they got screwed over by the entente and the treaty of Versailles.

without a ww1, that might have been delayed for long enough for the jews to return home.

There was not much talk about Jews returning till during or after WWII.

[Meerkat]

Germany was a Jew-hating nation regardless. Sooner or later those pink-skinned Arabs would have done some form of Shoah.

the reason germany went crazy during the 30s and 40s is because they got screwed over by the entente and the treaty of Versailles.

without a ww1, that might have been delayed for long enough for the jews to return home.

There was not much talk about Jews returning till during or after WWII.

the jews wern't fully emancipated yet before ww1. maybe a dead ottoman empire (and an open palestine), along with europes antisemitism would have forced all the jews to move to israel and establish a state there.

[Zelhar]

It is such a cataclysmic history shaping event that we can't guess what would have been otherwise. And moreover it was a very avoidable event.

[briann]

WWI was COMPLETELY game changing, far more so than any other war, including WWII.  And there is no question that 6 million Jews would not have been exterminated had it not been for its consequences.

Huge dynasties that had existed for hundreds of years dissapeared.  It was the end of the End of the German, Russian, Ottoman, and Austro-Hungarian empires.  It lead to the beginning of Bolshevism on a massive scale in Russia, and victory by the west was horrifically handled by the treaty of Versailles.

Also, the view that Germany before the 30's was more evil than other european countries is nonsense.  Outside of America, Germany was ironically considered the most accepting and tolerant to the Jews, which is why many Jews came there, including my great grandmother, who fled from Russia.  Many Jews also fought in WWI in the Kaisers army.

ALSO, almost every historian will tell you that the reason that the 2 wackjob totalitarian parties (Bolshevic and Nazi) became the 2 largest parties in Germany in 1932 was was because of incredible hate towards the Treaty of Versailles, the Dawes act, the whole missmanagement of the Weimar republic (which seemed like an occupational government) and and of course, the great depression was the nail on the head.   Nearly all this stuff has its roots in WWI.

That doesnt EXCUSE 39% of a population voting for such an evil party, but it DOES explain why a wacko socialist fringe pagan movement that had 1% popularity could suddenly become appealing to morons.  Its akin to Obama, who clearly had a wacko hateful upbringing could be elected.  People became so angry at Bush, and so freaked out by what looked like economic doom, that they voted for a Muslim communist, who painted himself as a liberator.  THankfully, Obama has very little chance of pulling off a totalitarian takeover (even though Im sure he would love one).

[Dr. Dan]

If WWI never happened, then France would have never humiliated Germany which might have less likely brought about Hitler and WWII.

[Yaakov Mendel]

You guys are pathetic trying to find excuses for the Germans by saying that the advent of Hitler and Nazism was because the poor Germans had been humiliated by France and the treaty of Versailles. You make it sound like Germans were the victims of WWI and that turning to Hitler was a legitimate response to their humiliation.
First, Germany was largely responsible for WWI by backing Austria's invasion of Serbia and invading Belgium and France after it had stolen Alsace-Lorraine to France in 1870. The Germans launched the horrible trenche warfare which caused terrible human suffering.
Secondly, there are specific cultural factors that made Nazism possible in Germany and not anywhere else. The belief in the superiority of the Germans viewed as a race was prevalent long before Hitler was even born, as well as the contempt for democracy and liberalism. Antisemitism is also deeply rooted in German culture and history. Persecution of Jews had been widespread in Germany long before the Nazis, during the Middle Ages, under the Prussian empire. Luther is one of the most vicious Jew haters in history. Jews have always been considered as a harmful and an alien element in German culture.
It wasn't an accident if Nazism rose in Germany and Germans were not victims. Other countries suffered badly from the crisis in the 30s, yet they did not enthusiastically support an evil beast such as Hitler as almost all Germans did. The Germans WANTED to exterminate the Jews. The Germans WANTED to conquer and rule the world because they believed they were superior to every other nation. They were not the innocent victims of France and Britain.

[Zelhar]

You guys are pathetic trying to find excuses for the Germans by saying that the advent of Hitler and Nazism was because the poor Germans had been humiliated by France and the treaty of Versailles. You make it sound like Germans were the victims of WWI and that turning to Hitler was a legitimate response to their humiliation.
First, Germany was largely responsible for WWI by backing Austria's invasion of Serbia and invading Belgium and France after it had stolen Alsace-Lorraine to France in 1870. The Germans launched the horrible trenche warfare which caused terrible human suffering.

Germany was not more responsible for WWI then either France or Russia. IMO, the three countries are equally responsible. Moreover, the UK is mainly responsible for refusing to reach a cease fire and the continuation of the war into 1917-18. Alsace-Lorraine should have gone to Germany as they originally used to be part of the German lands and it was the French Louis XIV who had stolen it.

Secondly, there are specific cultural factors that made Nazism possible in Germany and not anywhere else. The belief in the superiority of the Germans viewed as a race was prevalent long before Hitler was even born, as well as the contempt for democracy and liberalism. Antisemitism is also deeply rooted in German culture and history. Persecution of Jews had been widespread in Germany long before the Nazis, during the Middle Ages, under the Prussian empire. Luther is one of the most vicious Jew haters in history. Jews have always been considered as a harmful and an alien element in German culture.
It wasn't an accident if Nazism rose in Germany and Germans were not victims. Other countries suffered badly from the crisis in the 30s, yet they did not enthusiastically support an evil beast such as Hitler as almost all Germans did. The Germans WANTED to exterminate the Jews. The Germans WANTED to conquer and rule the world because they believed they were superior to every other nation. They were not the innocent victims of France and Britain.

Here I think you're speculating just as much yourself. The Germans were not the worst anti-semitic Europeans until the Nazis came by. The Russians, the Ukrainians, the Poles, outrank them by far. Even compared to the French, the Italians, and the Brits I don't think the Germans were worse Jew-haters.

Moreover, I don't see the roots of  Nazism in The Prussian state, rather they came from Bavaria and Austria mainly.

My point is, the Germans were pretty normal people, albeit with exceptional culture and strength, and they chose to become Nazi beasts.

[Meerkat]

if there was no ww1, both germany and austro-hungaria would remain monarchies. meaning hitler would not be able to get power even if the germans were about to go crazy.

[Rubystars]

The only way someone like Obama could have the dictatorship they want is if the constitution is re-written. I think this will be in the works. There has been at least one generation of school children brought up to believe that the constitution is a racist, outdated document. That's what they taught me when I was in elementary school, or at least implied heavily, and I'm 32. Who knows how bad it is now?

[Meerkat]

The only way someone like Obama could have the dictatorship they want is if the constitution is re-written. I think this will be in the works. There has been at least one generation of school children brought up to believe that the constitution is a racist, outdated document. That's what they taught me when I was in elementary school, or at least implied heavily, and I'm 32. Who knows how bad it is now?

really? im 16 and there was none of that,i had a constitutional unit at the bigging of the year.

[Rubystars]

The only way someone like Obama could have the dictatorship they want is if the constitution is re-written. I think this will be in the works. There has been at least one generation of school children brought up to believe that the constitution is a racist, outdated document. That's what they taught me when I was in elementary school, or at least implied heavily, and I'm 32. Who knows how bad it is now?

really? im 16 and there was none of that,i had a constitutional unit at the bigging of the year.

I'm glad it's not always pushed blatantly. I'll give you one example, the 2nd amendment. What I was taught was that guns made sense back when it was the times of expanding frontiers, the American revolution, etc. but they said we don't need guns now in modern society (what a joke). There were so many distortions of American history it wasn't even funny. They even tried to make Manifest Destiny sound like a bad thing, when it's one of our great American triumphs that all loyal Americans should be very proud of.

[Yaakov Mendel]

Zelhar,

You're blind if you can't see the roots of Nazism in German culture and if you think that it was an accident that Nazism happened in Germany.
Look at their history, at their political institutions, read their authors, read Luther.
Also, don't fall for the myth that Germans had "exceptional culture and strength" before the Nazis. In science, medicine, music, literature, other large European countries were just as brilliant. A substantial number of writers who wrote in German were not German. A large number of German scientists and artists were Jewish. The French were certainly not less good than the Germans at mathematics. The Italians were certainly not less good than the Germans at arts. It was the French and the British who designed the political institutions and principles of our modern age, while the Germans had backward authoritarian regimes. It was the British who pioneered free trade and free markets, not the Germans. As far as "strength" is concerned, the French fought just as bravely as the Germans who invaded them during WWI.

[Yaakov Mendel]

KahanistLiberal,

How can you be so sure to know how history would have unfolded if WWI had not happened ? There is no way you can be sure of anything in this matter.

[Meerkat]

I'm glad it's not always pushed blatantly. I'll give you one example, the 2nd amendment. What I was taught was that guns made sense back when it was the times of expanding frontiers, the American revolution, etc. but they said we don't need guns now in modern society (what a joke). There were so many distortions of American history it wasn't even funny. They even tried to make Manifest Destiny sound like a bad thing, when it's one of our great American triumphs that all loyal Americans should be very proud of.

they made us give presentations on the amendments, luckily i got the 2nd so i was able to push some pro-2nd amendment stuff.

KahanistLiberal,

How can you be so sure to know how history would have unfolded if WWI had not happened ? There is no way you can be sure of anything in this matter.

we can't, this is just speculation

[Zelhar]

Zelhar,

You're blind if you can't see the roots of Nazism in German culture and if you think that it was an accident that Nazism happened in Germany.
Look at their history, at their political institutions, read their authors, read Luther.
Also, don't fall for the myth that Germans had "exceptional culture and strength" before the Nazis. In science, medicine, music, literature, other large European countries were just as brilliant. A substantial number of writers who wrote in German were not German. A large number of German scientists and artists were Jewish. The French were certainly not less good than the Germans at mathematics. The Italians were certainly not less good than the Germans at arts. It was the French and the British who designed the political institutions and principles of our modern age, while the Germans had backward authoritarian regimes. It was the British who pioneered free trade and free markets, not the Germans. As far as "strength" is concerned, the French fought just as bravely as the Germans who invaded them during WWI.

I think I am a realist. The German civilization was strong and brilliant and much of that was contribution of non-ethnic Germans like Jews, Czechs, Poles etc. The same way that America's technological leadership came in large parts due to brain draining Europe, and India, and China, and Israel.

My opinion is that Germany (including Austria, Switzerland, and all these germanized Jews and east Europeans of course) overtook France as the leader in Math in the late 18th century. But I suppose that is arguable. However, the German might of arms and industry was certainly the leading power in turn of the century Europe. The French fought bravely but the Germans fought on two fronts, and still France would have been overrun by 1914 unless the Brits rescued it. Had America not entered the war in 1917, the conflict would have likely ended in either a stalemate or even a German victory.

[Yaakov Mendel]

The German civilization was strong and brilliant and much of that was contribution of non-ethnic Germans like Jews, Czechs, Poles etc. The same way that America's technological leadership came in large parts due to brain draining Europe, and India, and China, and Israel.

Yes, it was strong and brilliant but not significantly more brilliant than other European nations, and its achievements in science and arts were due to a large extent by non-ethnic Germans, as you now admit.

However, the German might of arms and industry was certainly the leading power in turn of the century Europe. The French fought bravely but the Germans fought on two fronts, and still France would have been overrun by 1914 unless the Brits rescued it. Had America not entered the war in 1917, the conflict would have likely ended in either a stalemate or even a German victory.

Indeed, in terms of industry and military might, it was the leading country. That is why these bastards inflicted so much pain and suffering.

[Yaakov Mendel]

Here is a list of the main German Jews only in science, to give you an idea of what the Jews contributed to that country's reputation, despite the discriminations some of them faced (note that there is no Nobel Prize in Mathematics) :

Natural Scientists
Max Abraham, physicist
Adolf von Baeyer, industrial chemist, Nobel Prize (1905) (Jewish mother)[27]
Norbert Berkowitz, physicist[28]
Hans Bethe, nuclear physics, Nobel Prize (1967)[29]
Sir Walter Bodmer, medical researcher [9]
Max Born, quantum mechanics, Nobel Prize (1954)[30]
Heinrich Caro, industrial chemist[31]
Nikodem Caro, industrial chemist[32]
Albert Einstein, theoretical physics, Nobel Prize (1921)[33]
Erwin Finlay-Freundlich, astronomer[34]
James Franck, quantum physics, Nobel Prize (1925)[35]
Adolph Frank, industrial chemist[36]
Herbert Fröhlich, physicist[37]
Eugen Glueckauf, chemist, expert on atomic energy [38]
Hans Goldschmidt, industrial chemist[39]
Eugen Goldstein, physicist
Leo Graetz, physicist
Fritz Haber, developed the Haber process, Nobel Prize (1918)[40]
Walter Heitler, chemist [41]
Arthur Korn, physicist[42]
Ernst Ising, statistical mechanics[43]
Albert Ladenburg, chemist[10]
Fritz London, quantum mechanics[11]
Leonard Mandel, quantum optics[44]
Kurt Mendelssohn, German-born British medical physicist[12]
Viktor Meyer, organic chemist[45]
Leonor Michaelis, biochemist[46]
Albert Michelson, measured speed of light, Nobel Prize (1907) (Jewish father)[13][47]
Ludwig Mond, chemist & industrialist[48]
Sir Rudolf Peierls, solid state theory[49]
Arno Penzias, co-discoverer of CMB, Nobel Prize (1978)[50]
Alfred Philippson, geologist [51]
John Charles Polanyi, chemist, Nobel Prize (born Berlin) [52]
Ernst Pringsheim, spectrometry, black-body radiation[53]
Michael Rossmann, physicist and microbiologist (Jewish mother)[54]; [55]
Rudolf Schoenheimer, biochemist[56]
Arthur Schuster, spectroscopist[57]
Karl Schwarzschild, physicist & astronomer[58]
Franz Simon, physicist, separation of Uranium 235[14]
Jack Steinberger, particle physics, Nobel Prize (1988)[59]
Otto Stern, experimental physicist, Nobel Prize (1943)[60]
Otto Wallach, chemist, Nobel Prize (1910)[15]
Richard Willstätter, chemist, Nobel Prize (1915)[61]
Nathan Zuntz

[edit] Physicians and Medical Researchers
Adolph Baginsky, pediatrician, diphtheria researcher[62]
Alfred Bielschowsky, ophthalmologist[63]
Max Bielschowsky, neuropathologist[64]
Konrad Bloch, biochemist, Nobel Prize (1964)[65]
Marcus Elieser Bloch, physician[66]
Gustav Born, professor of pharmacology[67]
Edith Bulbring, Professor of pharmacy (Jewish mother)[68]
Sir Ernst Chain, developed penicillin, Nobel Prize (1945)[69]
Ferdinand Cohn, pioneer in microbiology[70]
Julius Friedrich Cohnheim, pathologist[4]
Julius Dreschfeld, physician[16]
Paul Ehrlich, developed magic bullet concept, Nobel Prize (1908)[71]
Arthur Eichengrün, possible inventor of aspirin[72]
Wilhelm Feldberg, biologist[73]
Heinz Fraenkel-Conrat, biochemist[74]
Hermann Friedberg, physician[4]
Carl Friedländer, bacteriologist
Salome Gluecksohn-Waelsch, geneticist[75]
Ernst Gräfenberg, obstetrician, the G-spot[76]
Martin Gumpert, physician, writer[77]
Friedrich Gustav Jakob Henle, physician[78]
Lipman Heilprin, neurologist and recipient 1952 Israel Prize for medicine
Sir Bernard Katz, biophysicist, Nobel Prize (1970)[79]
Hans Kornberg, biochemist researcher[80]
Hans Kosterlitz, discovered endorphins[81]
Sir Hans Adolf Krebs, biochemist, Nobel Prize (1953)[82]
Fritz Lipmann, biochemist, Nobel Prize (1953)[83]
Jacques Loeb, physiologist[84]
Otto Loewi, pharmacologist, Nobel Prize (1936)[85]
Elisabeth Mann, biologist (Jewish mother) [17]
Otto Meyerhof, biochemist, Nobel Prize (1922) (Jewish father)[86]
Oskar Minkowski, physiologist[87]
Albert Moll, psychiatrist, sexologist, skeptic
Hermann Munk, German physiologist who studied threadworms
Albert Neisser, physician, discovered the cause of gonorrhea (Jewish father)[88]
Emin Pasha, physician, naturalist, explorer[89]
Nathanael Pringsheim, botanist[90]
Ottomar Rosenbach, physician[4]
Moritz Traube, biochemist[91]
Wilhelm Traube, physician, inventor of the fever thermometer
Carl Warburg, doctor of medicine and clinical pharmacologist.[18]
Otto Heinrich Warburg, physiologist, Nobel Prize (1931) (Jewish father)[92]
Karl Weigert, pathologist[93]

[edit] Mathematicians

Felix Bernstein, set theory[94]
Maurice Block, statistician [95]
Richard Brauer, modular representation theory[96]
Paul Cohn, algebraist [19]
Richard Courant, mathematical analysis & applied mathematics[97]
Max Dehn, topology[98]
Paul Epstein, number theory[99]
Adolf Fraenkel, set theory[100]
Hans Freudenthal, algebraic topology[101]
Felix Hausdorff, topology[102]
Heinz Hopf, topology (Jewish father)[103]
Adolf Hurwitz, mathematician[104]
Carl Gustav Jakob Jacobi, analysis[105]
Leopold Kronecker, number theory[106]
Edmund Landau, number theory[107]
Rudolf Lipschitz, mathematician[108]
Kurt Mahler, mathematician[109]
Hermann Minkowski, geometrical theory of numbers[20]
Claus Moser, Statistician [110]
Leonard Nelson, mathematician, philosopher[111]
Bernhard Neumann, mathematician[112]
Emmy Noether, algebra & theoretical physics[113]
Alfred Pringsheim, analysis, theory of functions[114]
Richard Rado, combinatorics[115]
Abraham Robinson, nonstandard analysis[116])[117]
Arthur Moritz Schönflies, mathematician[118]
Issai Schur, mathematician[119]
Otto Toeplitz, linear algebra & functional analysis[120]

[Zelhar]

Yaakov Mendel, I have a notion that Jews in France (and Britain) didn't achieve the same level of success in math and science as the Jews in Germany, and Russia, and America, am I right ?

[Yaakov Mendel]

Yaakov Mendel, I have a notion that Jews in France (and Britain) didn't achieve the same level of success in math and science as the Jews in Germany, and Russia, and America, am I right ?

It is true as regards Mathematics (there are several Nobel Prize winners in physics and chemistry who are French Jews).

[Yaakov Mendel]

My opinion is that Germany (including Austria, Switzerland, and all these germanized Jews and east Europeans of course) overtook France as the leader in Math in the late 18th century. But I suppose that is arguable.

The talent of the French people in mathematics is exceptional. The approximate equivalent of the Nobel Prize in Mathematics is the Fields Medal. It has been awarded every four years since 1936.
Since 1936, there have been 10 French Fields Medals laureates. The only country in the world that has done better is the USA with 12 Fields Medal laureates. But the US is almost 5 times more populated than France !
There has not been a single German mathematician who has got a Fields Medal.
Those who have a tendency to sneer at France on this forum should think about this. The French have their shortcomings and their weaknesses but there is no question that they have brought to the world many, many brilliant minds, discoveries and achievements.

[muman613]

My opinion is that Germany (including Austria, Switzerland, and all these germanized Jews and east Europeans of course) overtook France as the leader in Math in the late 18th century. But I suppose that is arguable.

The talent of the French people in mathematics is exceptional. The approximate equivalent of the Nobel Prize in Mathematics is the Fields Medal. It has been awarded every four years since 1936.
Since 1936, there have been 10 French Fields Medals laureates. The only country in the world that has done better is the USA with 12 Fields Medal laureates. But the US is almost 5 times more populated than France !
There has not been a single German mathematician who has got a Fields Medal.
Those who have a tendency to sneer at France on this forum should think about this. The French have their shortcomings and their weaknesses but there is no question that they have brought to the world many, many brilliant minds, discoveries and achievements.

Yes, like Crepes, Croissants, and French rolls...