Mosheh katzav found guilty of rape

[Dr. Dan]

Now they need to find the others guilty if treason

[wonga66]

The President Katsav verdict reminds one of the advisability of keeping to the Code of Jewish Law's Hilchot Yichud  - "The Laws of Modesty" - that govern with whom and when a Jewish man can be alone with a woman.

Personal female secretaries are a recipe for disaster, laying both open to suspicions and charges.
 
In Even Haezer section of the Code of Jewish Law there is a section Lihitrachek min hanashim - "On distancing from women", which states tzarich ha'adam lihtrachek min hanashim me'od me'od - "a man must keep away from women very very much"!
 
The Talmud views men and women as two different 'species' who should not over mix: "Do not overly converse with a woman, even one's own wife, let alone another's...he will bring evil on himself, neglect Torah study, and in the end will inherit Gehinnom!" (Pirke Avot 1:5)
 
Like the US White House under Clinton, Israel's Beit Hanassi has been brought somewhat into disrepute. One of the signs of the Chevlei Moshiach - "the Pre-Messianic Pangsl" - is when Beit Hava'ad l'znut  - "the High Offices will become bordellos" (Mishna Sotah 9)!

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

You just barely beat me to this topic, Dan.

It's good this chazir will do some time, but now how about some of the other Israeli Bolsheviks that have done a thousand times worse?

[muman613]

The President Katsav verdict reminds one of the advisability of keeping to the Code of Jewish Law's Hilchot Yichud  - "The Laws of Modesty" - that govern with whom and when a Jewish man can be alone with a woman.

Personal female secretaries are a recipe for disaster, laying both open to suspicions and charges.
 
In Even Haezer section of the Code of Jewish Law there is a section Lihitrachek min hanashim - "On distancing from women", which states tzarich ha'adam lihtrachek min hanashim me'od me'od - "a man must keep away from women very very much"!
 
The Talmud views men and women as two different 'species' who should not over mix: "Do not overly converse with a woman, even one's own wife, let alone another's...he will bring evil on himself, neglect Torah study, and in the end will inherit Gehinnom!" (Pirke Avot 1:5)
 
Like the US White House under Clinton, Israel's Beit Hanassi has been brought somewhat into disrepute. One of the signs of the Chevlei Moshiach - "the Pre-Messianic Pangsl" - is when Beit Hava'ad l'znut  - "the High Offices will become bordellos" (Mishna Sotah 9)!

On this topic I agree with wonga66...

I have had to work with women in my office and have witnessed workplace romances which have destroyed marriages.

Luckily where I work today I do not have to work with any women...

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

On this topic I agree with wonga66...

I have had to work with women in my office and have witnessed workplace romances which have destroyed marriages.

Luckily where I work today I do not have to work with any women...

No comment.

[Spiraling Leopard]

The President Katsav verdict reminds one of the advisability of keeping to the Code of Jewish Law's Hilchot Yichud  - "The Laws of Modesty" - that govern with whom and when a Jewish man can be alone with a woman.

Personal female secretaries are a recipe for disaster, laying both open to suspicions and charges.
 
In Even Haezer section of the Code of Jewish Law there is a section Lihitrachek min hanashim - "On distancing from women", which states tzarich ha'adam lihtrachek min hanashim me'od me'od - "a man must keep away from women very very much"!
 
The Talmud views men and women as two different 'species' who should not over mix: "Do not overly converse with a woman, even one's own wife, let alone another's...he will bring evil on himself, neglect Torah study, and in the end will inherit Gehinnom!" (Pirke Avot 1:5)
 
Like the US White House under Clinton, Israel's Beit Hanassi has been brought somewhat into disrepute. One of the signs of the Chevlei Moshiach - "the Pre-Messianic Pangsl" - is when Beit Hava'ad l'znut  - "the High Offices will become bordellos" (Mishna Sotah 9)!

I think you are right too. Being with a woman too much will make you too cozy and weak.

[wonga66]

What we want now is Katsav to threaten to throw a news conference where he'll spill the beans on secrets he knows eg the Rabin killing etc, so that they have to immediately take him out, like Zeevi, Elassar & Eitan!

[Rubystars]

I don't particularly like working around other women because of how chatty they are. When I go to work I just want to do my tasks and be left alone pretty much to do them, rather than chatting about the weather, boyfriends, other workers, movies, etc. I don't mind a little bit but when someone wants to chat chat chat I get annoyed. I prefer working around men because they pretty much have the same attitude I do toward that.

[wonga66]

Men make much better personal secretaries, telephone operators, bank staff, nurses and dental nurses than women!

"Men must always make the blessing "...who has not made me a woman" with kavannah and gratitude to Hashem.....because it's better to be a man!" (Rabbi Avigdor Miller 1995)

[Zelhar]

I think Katzav is guilty as charged, but also that technically the judges were too severe with him in face of the concrete evidence laid before them.

[muman613]

It is always trying living with a wife who is jealous of other women. In my previous marriage my wife would constantly accuse me of having relationships with other women. The best strategy, in my opnion, is to avoid working with them {unless you have to}.

For a short time here where I work I had a woman supervisor, but she moved up in the organization and now we don't really have any women working in the work group I work in.

This is not any kind of comment on women or their ability to do the job. The issue from the Jewish standpoint is that a man should not look at or talk to a woman who is not his wife {if he is married}. The entire Jewish field of Yichud concerns the boundries which must be established between men and women.

Here is a brief talk about the concepts of Yichud:

http://www.koltorah.org/ravj/The%20Yichud%20Prohibition%20-%20Part%201.htm

The Yichud Prohibition- Part One:
To Whom Does It Apply?
by Rabbi Howard Jachter

Introduction

It is quite challenging to abide by the Yichud restrictions.  This prohibition restricts a man and a woman from being secluded unless they are married or very close relatives.  Abiding by this Halacha is, however, an essential component in maintaining a Torah lifestyle and Kedushat Yisrael (the holiness of the Jewish People).  In this issue and the next, we will discuss the parameters of this prohibition and how we abide by this prohibition in the modern context.

The Source of the Prohibition

The Gemara (Kiddushin 80b) notes that the Torah (Devarim 13:7) hints at the prohibition for a man and a woman to be secluded unless they are married or very close relatives.  The Rishonim debate whether this is a Torah level or a rabbinic level prohibition.  For a list of these Rishonim, see the Encyclopedia Talmudit 23:634-635.  The Bait Shmuel (Even Haezer 22:1) cites this debate but does not decide which view is accepted.  The Aruch Hashulchan (E.H. 22:2), however, rules that it is a Torah level prohibition.  The Gemara (Sanhedrin 21b) that states that Yichud is a Torah level prohibition appears to clearly support this view (though one could argue that the Gemara means that there is a basis for this prohibition in the Torah).  Rav Yitzchak Elchanan Spektor (Teshuvot Ein Yitzchak 1: E.H.8:4) notes, however, that even those Rishonim who believe that this prohibition is only rabbinic in nature agree that it is a very stringent prohibition, especially since this is a restriction that predates the time of David Hamelech and has a basis in the Torah.

The original Torah prohibition includes only a man’s seclusion with a woman defined as an “Erva” in the Torah, such as a married Jewish woman.  David Hamelech added the prohibition to engage in Yichud with an unmarried Jewish woman (Sanhedrin 21).  Later, Shammai and Hillel prohibited seclusion even with a non-Jewish woman (Avoda Zara 36b).  The Acharonim debate whether an unmarried woman who is a Nidda is included in the original prohibition or is part of the decree of King David (see Teshuvot Tzitz Eliezer 6:40:8:8 for a discussion of the issue).  The Aruch Hashulchan (E.H. 22:1) rules that that type of woman is included in the original prohibition.  The Mishna Berura (75:17) seems to agree.

Who is Excluded for the Prohibition?

The Gemara (Kiddushin 80b) states that the Yichud prohibition does not apply to a man and his mother.  In fact, the Gemara (Kiddushin 81b) states that a man is permitted to dwell in the same house with his mother or his daughter even if no one else lives there.  Rashi (ad. loc. s.v. Vedar) explains that the Yetzer Hara is not interested in such a case, as the Gemara (Sanhedrin 64a) records that the Anshei Knesset Hagedola convinced Hashem with their Tefilot to curtail the Yetzer Hara for incest.
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[muman613]

See this discussion of the Pirkie Avot which wonga66 brought:

http://torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter1-5b.html

Chapter 1, Mishna 5(b)
Marriage and the Dark Side of the Force

By Rabbi Dovid Rosenfeld

"Yossi ben (son of) Yochanan of Jerusalem said: Let your house be open wide, let the poor be members of your household, and do not chatter excessively with women. This was said regarding one's own wife, certainly with another's wife. Based on this the Sages have said, one who chatters excessively with women causes evil to himself, wastes time from Torah study, and will eventually inherit Gehenna."

For the past two classes we have been discussing the sanctity of the home. As the Sages instruct, religious practices and values must not be relegated to the synagogue or some other setting outside the home. Our homes must be permeated with sanctity, and both Torah scholars and the downtrodden should be welcome within.

We are now ready to discuss the second issue of our mishna, talking excessively with women. It is appropriate to approach this from the context of this and the previous mishna. The sanctity of the home to a great extent rests on the husband-wife relationship within. If their relationship is founded upon closeness and a sharing of values, the home will flourish. If it is based upon frivolity and lust -- or if the husband finds he has better "chatter" (what we today call "chemistry") with women outside the home -- the basic building blocks of the home will be lacking, and the home will only with difficulty survive.

Our mishna uses the term "sicha" for speech, which means light or trivial talk, kibitzing or banter. Regarding another man's wife the danger is evident. Empty, frivolous conversation may lead to a much more serious breakdown of behavior. We will learn later: "Jesting and lightheadedness accustom a person to immorality" (3:17). Interaction with women may be a regular part of our daily activities, but we must always take care that a certain sense of formality is maintained. This of course does not mean to imply coldness or aloofness. As always in Judaism, the correct balance must be sought. However, this is one area in which the Sages, in their wisdom and insight, warn us to take extra care. Dangers lurk -- sometimes only slightly beneath the thinnest veneer of propriety -- and caution must be constantly maintained.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

What does working with women have to do with rape? Are we trying to say that men can't control themselves around females in society? This pig Katzav (yimach schmo) deserves a lot more than a couple years in jail for what he did--to these women and the people of Israel.

It doesn't matter if a woman dresses like a total ho and shoves her butt in a man's face--rape is rape and deserves the death penalty. But none of the women Katzav attacked did any such thing.

[muman613]

What does working with women have to do with rape? Are we trying to say that men can't control themselves around females in society? This pig Katzav (yimach schmo) deserves a lot more than a couple years in jail for what he did--to these women and the people of Israel.

It doesn't matter if a woman dresses like a total ho and shoves her butt in a man's face--rape is rape and deserves the death penalty. But none of the women Katzav attacked did any such thing.

I was not commenting on the rape. I was just elaborating on what wonga was saying and my personal experience in the workplace. I do not know anyone personally who was raped, or raped anyone...

But concerning Katzav, he is a swine and deserves to be punished for his sexual immorality...


BTW, the Torah does not proscribe death for the crime of Rape... Only in cases of Adultery does Torah proscribe the death penalty. Rape is an entirely different topic from a Torah perspective.

http://www.torah.org/advanced/mikra/5757/br/dt.59.1.08.html
http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-1258/punishment-for-rape/

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

So in other words, you followed a rabbit trail set by a Torah-bashing troll.

[muman613]

So in other words, you followed a rabbit trail set by a Torah-bashing troll.

There are many things I do not agree with wonga on... I have clearly said when I disagree with what he writes. His fascination with the descendants of Essau is especially troubling for me... But sometimes he does say things which are correct...

Should I deny the truth just because there are things which I disagree with him about?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

What was correct about what he just said? He posted a screed against women that basically implied that these rapes were the fault of women mingling with men.

[muman613]

What was correct about what he just said? He posted a screed against women that basically implied that these rapes were the fault of women mingling with men.

That is what you read in what he said? I do not see such an implication... Please clarify what exactly he said which blames the rapes on the women? What he said is that Jewish laws are intended to prevent these kinds of things from happening... This does not blame the women for anything, the blame is still on the man, but the Jewish belief is that the man is weak when it comes to attraction to females, and he needs to control his heart and his eyes {We say this in the Shema prayer three times a day}.

I don't know why DBF but I will clarify what I am saying with another 'cut&paste' which you love so much:

http://www.torah.org/features/spirfocus/mindcontrol.html

In the last paragraph of the Shema prayer, we are commanded "Do not stray after your hearts and after your eyes" (Numbers, 15:39). Exercise control, we are told, and don't follow after the desires of your heart. Don't allow yourself to become jealous, angry, lustful, greedy, or have any other undesirable emotions and thoughts that are part of the human condition. Control yourself.

On the other hand, the Talmud makes a seemingly paradoxical statement: "No person is saved from thoughts of sin" (Bava Basrah 164b). No one, no matter how righteous he or she is, can escape provocative thoughts. It is part of what makes us human and no person is spared.

So how can God command us in the Shema not to stray after our hearts? Experiencing those dark thoughts and feelings is part of our human existence that He Himself created!

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Thanks for the cut & paste.

[wonga66]

The old style of sexually rampant womanizing Israeli brutes who had the 'hots' for women, like Dayan, Mordechai, Ramon, Peres and Katsav are a vanishing breed.

Indeed men worldwide are rapidly losing interest, and even becoming repulsed by women and marriage in general due to over-exposure to women, women becoming unattractive in soul and body, loss of the feminine mystique, men realising that women are just men but with longer hair with their gonads internalised, fear of family-upkeep litigation, divorce settlements and rape charges, testosterone and sperm levels falling due to dysgenics, pollution and as predicted, increase in homosexuality, together with ....the internet!

One has to take one's hat off to the Haredim, who even if they aren't particularly attracted to a woman, will still marry her out of a sense of mitzva duty and peer pressure.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

The old style of sexually rampant womanizing Israeli brutes who had the 'hots' for women, like Dayan, Mordechai, Ramon, Peres and Katsav are a vanishing breed.

Indeed men worldwide are rapidly losing interest, and even becoming repulsed by women and marriage in general due to over-exposure to women, women becoming unattractive in soul and body, loss of the feminine mystique, men realising that women are just men but with longer hair with their gonads internalised, fear of family-upkeep litigation, divorce settlements and rape charges, testosterone and sperm levels falling due to dysgenics, pollution and as predicted, increase in homosexuality, together with ....the internet!

One has to take one's hat off to the Haredim, who even if they aren't particularly attracted to a woman, will still marry her out of a sense of mitzva duty and peer pressure.

I think you are a WN.

[Dr. Dan]

Dbf practically speaking you are correct.  But there is a religious science to this in judaism.  Before you speak and defame, read what wonga and muman have to write.  And before you start to argue ask questions.

What does working with women have to do with rape? Are we trying to say that men can't control themselves around females in society? This pig Katzav (yimach schmo) deserves a lot more than a couple years in jail for what he did--to these women and the people of Israel.

It doesn't matter if a woman dresses like a total ho and shoves her butt in a man's face--rape is rape and deserves the death penalty. But none of the women Katzav attacked did any such thing.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Dbf practically speaking you are correct.  But there is a religious science to this in judaism.  Before you speak and defame, read what wonga and muman have to write.  And before you start to argue ask questions.

Wonga is always making smartarse posts desecrating religious Jews, Israelis, or Talmud. That's really all we need to know about his butt.

[Dr. Dan]

Dbf practically speaking you are correct.  But there is a religious science to this in judaism.  Before you speak and defame, read what wonga and muman have to write.  And before you start to argue ask questions.

Wonga is always making smartarse posts desecrating religious Jews, Israelis, or Talmud. That's really all we need to know about his butt.

Muman is posting information important for many religious jewish men.  Take the time to learn about judaism before you draw christian conclusions from them

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I said Wonga and what "Christian" conclusion did I draw?