We Must Have Mercy On The Remnant Left In Japan, But Pls Look-Zech Chapt 12

[AsheDina]

Israel did the right thing in sending Japan humanitarian relief. But pls look at this link.  AND, we are not EVER supposed to 'rejoice' in fellow mans suffering.

ZECH 12:
א  מַשָּׂא דְבַר-יְהוָה, עַל-יִשְׂרָאֵל:  נְאֻם-יְהוָה, נֹטֶה שָׁמַיִם וְיֹסֵד אָרֶץ, וְיֹצֵר רוּחַ-אָדָם, בְּקִרְבּוֹ.  1
The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The saying of the LORD, who stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundation of the earth, and formed the spirit of man within him: 
ב  הִנֵּה אָנֹכִי שָׂם אֶת-יְרוּשָׁלִַם סַף-רַעַל, לְכָל-הָעַמִּים--סָבִיב; וְגַם עַל-יְהוּדָה יִהְיֶה בַמָּצוֹר, עַל-יְרוּשָׁלִָם.  2
Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of staggering unto all the peoples round about, and upon Judah also shall it fall to be in the siege against Jerusalem. 
ג  וְהָיָה בַיּוֹם-הַהוּא אָשִׂים אֶת-יְרוּשָׁלִַם אֶבֶן מַעֲמָסָה, לְכָל-הָעַמִּים--כָּל-עֹמְסֶיהָ, שָׂרוֹט יִשָּׂרֵטוּ; וְנֶאֶסְפוּ עָלֶיהָ, כֹּל גּוֹיֵי הָאָרֶץ.  3
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will make Jerusalem a stone of burden for all the peoples; all that burden themselves with it shall be sore wounded; and all the nations of the earth shall be gathered together against it. 


The Japanese govt was against Israeli settlements.

http://www.watch.org/index.html?mcat=46

[mord]

Very true plus many allied servicemen were tortured and beheaded by the Japanese they also had the rape of Nanking and to this day they refuse to take responsibility..They also took women from all over Asia and made the comfort girls prostitutes for Japanese soldiers

[AsheDina]

Very true plus many allied servicemen were tortured and beheaded by the Japanese they also had the rape of Nanking and to this day they refuse to take responsibility..They also took women from all over Asia and made the comfort girls prostitutes for Japanese soldiers

But that was then, this is now.
 Japan became a very pro-American and pro-western nation. 
The problem with what happened here is that Japan turned on gods holy land.
Thats what has happened

[TheCoon]

I don't agree. Trying to find meaning when bad things happen to good people is pointless. Earthquakes happen because God's Earth is governed by physical laws he created. Tectonic plates shift to relieve pressure in the Earth. It's not Japan's support for the arabs. They live on an island that has volcanic and earthquake activity and a lot of their coastal area is at sea level.

Bad things happen to good people(Japan) because this world is imperfect. You can't control the world but you can control if you lead a good, moral life and if you do you are reward in the next world which is perfect.

If God controlled who got punishment he would annihilate the arabs.

[muman613]

I don't agree. Trying to find meaning when bad things happen to good people is pointless. Earthquakes happen because G-d's Earth is governed by physical laws he created. Tectonic plates shift to relieve pressure in the Earth. It's not Japan's support for the arabs. They live on an island that has volcanic and earthquake activity and a lot of their coastal area is at sea level.

Bad things happen to good people(Japan) because this world is imperfect. You can't control the world but you can control if you lead a good, moral life and if you do you are reward in the next world which is perfect.

If G-d controlled who got punishment he would annihilate the arabs.

This is not the Jewish belief. We believe in a concept called Hashgacha Pratis, meaning Divine Providence. Only a Jewish heretic would believe that there is anything in the world which Hashem does not have absolute control over. He is in control of the winds blowing, the rain falling, the earthquakes happening, the trees falling in the forest, etc...

I believe with absolute faith that Hashem has absolute power over every event in his world..

Maybe the arabs are a test for the Jewish people... Maybe they will not be rewarded in the world to come... There are many good reasons why Hashem allows evil to exist in this world..

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/80720/jewish/Led-By-G-ds-Hand.htm

Throughout the generations, the Sages of Judaism have endeavored to comprehend and explain the workings of the cosmic patterns of Hashgacha Pratis. Commonly translated as "Divine Providence," this describes the way in which every entity and action in this world is guided to its ultimate purpose by G-d's wisdom and choice.

With the revelation of the teachings of Chassidut by the Baal Shem Tov, unique insights penetrated many areas of Jewish thought. Particularly, with regard to Hashgacha Pratis, the Baal Shem Tov's approach enriched our understanding of these Divine patterns of causation and destiny.

From this book:

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As explained by our master, the Baal Shem Tov, not only are all the particular activities of the created beings [controlled by] Divine providence. This providence is the life-energy of the created being and maintains its existence. Moreover, every particular movement of an individual created being has a connection to the intent of the creation as a whole…. A slight movement of one blade of grass fulfills G-d’s intent for the creation as a whole.

Note a: The statements concerning Divine providence in Tanya, Shaar HaYichud VehaEmunah, ch. 2, and Iggeres HaKodesh, Epistle 25, involve the general concept of Divine providence. For there are people who deny it and even its possibility despite the fact that they admit that the entire creation was brought into being ex nihilo by G-d’s word, as apparent from [the Alter Rebbe’s] rebuttal of their position. In another source, their position is explained. They maintain that the creation was brought into being through a downward cause-and-effect directed chain of sequences. In such a situation, the effect [i.e., the lower level,] bring about changes in the cause [the higher level]. Therefore, according to their conception, it is impossible for G-d to invest Himself and manifest His providence in the lowly worlds, for that would be lowering Himself (Likkutei Torah, the second maamar entitled Shishim Heimah, sec. 2). And doing so would bring about multiplicity within Him [as it were] (Torah Or, the maamar entitled Eirda Na). Therefore they maintain that “G-d abandoned the earth,”1 and He is merely “the G-d of gods.”2 For this same reason, they deny the possibility of miracles (Torah Or, the maamar entitled ViEileh Shmos).

[TheCoon]

I think to look for reasons why something like an earthquake would happen to Japan is human arrogance at its worst. [censored] happens and you are a human being can't control it.

[muman613]

I think to look for reasons why something like an earthquake would happen to Japan is human arrogance at its worst. drek happens and you are a human being can't control it.

I agree, that is a different issue...

What happens is that the 'decree' which was passed for Japan was meted out on all who live or visited there... This is the same with every evil decree, even against the Jewish people themselves..

Sometimes the righteous are destroyed along with the wicked..

We are celebrating Purim this weekend... The evil decree which Haman instigated ultimately was a decree from Hashem himself to destroy the Jewish people. Only through teshuva and prayer did the Jews merit to be redeemed.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Remnant of what?

We rejoiced over the egyptians suffering because they oppressed us, and every day in the morning prayers we recite the song that the Jews spontaneously sang in praise of Hashem for drowning the egyptians and saving us just as its lyrics are written in the Torah.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

This is not the Jewish belief. We believe in a concept called Hashgacha Pratis, meaning Divine Providence. Only a Jewish heretic would believe that there is anything in the world which Hashem does not have absolute control over. He is in control of the winds blowing, the rain falling, the earthquakes happening, the trees falling in the forest, etc...

That's not true because the Rambam argued against your view in the Moreh Nevukhim.  I am sure you don't consider him to be a Jewish heretic.   I saw with my own eyes where he negates the view that the leaf blowing in the wind is God's will, saying that that is not the proper Jewish hashkafa (however this did come to be the view of the chassidim and notably rav tzadok hakohen who elaborates this and extends its logic to virtually negate free will almost entirely).  The Rambam limits hashgaha pratit to only those who have a commensurate level of intellect (ie humans) - the more rational thought, the more hashgaha God exerts on that group commensurate with the intelligence.  So rocks do not get hashgaha pratit.

[muman613]

Remnant of what?

We rejoiced over the egyptians suffering because they oppressed us, and every day in the morning prayers we recite the song that the Jews spontaneously sang in praise of Hashem for drowning the egyptians and saving us just as its lyrics are written in the Torah.

Yes, that was permitted, but there is a lot written that says we should not rejoice over our enemies downfall.. Even the angels protested when we sang at the shore of the Yam Suf.

I have quoted this, from Pirkie avos, before... It was written by the Sage who added the curse to the Amidah against the heretics...


http://www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/ch4-24.html

What We Think about Sinners
Chapter 4, Mishna 24

By Rabbi Dovid Rosenfeld

"Shmuel (Sh-moo-ail) the Small said, 'At your enemy's fall do not rejoice, and when he stumbles let your heart not be joyous, lest the L-rd see and be displeased and turn back His anger from him [to you]' (Proverbs 24:17-18)."

This week's mishna tells us that we must not gloat over the downfall of our enemy, even if such a downfall was eminently deserved. When G-d metes out justice to the wicked, we should find it unsettling. G-d's power has been unleashed in this world; am I so deserving that it will not be directed at me?

The commentator Rabbeinu Yonah adds that there *is* a certain sense of elation we may feel. G-d's honor has been restored. Wickedness does not last forever. G-d ultimately sees to it that His enemies are punished. If He does so in this world, just a small amount of His glory has been revealed to mankind. And for that, we may rejoice.

We should not, however, rejoice over the suffering itself our enemy endures. It may be necessary and it may be 100% *right*, but it is not a source of joy. The Talmud states that when the Egyptians were drowning in the sea, the angels wanted to sing their daily song of praise to G-d, and G-d quieted them: "The creations of My hands are drowning in the sea, and you are singing song?!" (Megillah 10b). One of the most wicked and immoral nations history has produced was at last experiencing its well-deserved fate, yet G-d Himself, so to speak, experienced no pleasure in the process.

Yet at the same time the angels were silenced, Moses and Miriam led the Jewish nation in our most glorious Song of the Sea. Were we so much better? If the angels could not sing, how could we?

The answer is that we sang not as a form of gloating over our enemies, but because we had witnessed G-d's salvation. And it was more than just a salvation. We caught a glimpse -- albeit a fleeting one -- of G-d's Divine guiding Hand. In a moment of inspiration, we were able to grasp the Big Picture -- to discern G-d's slow but directed guiding Hand throughout our history. Everything had come to a head. Jewish history had unfolded before our eyes. We realized that far beyond our puny comprehension G-d had been orchestrating events all along. Hundreds of years of exile and suffering had been purposeful and a part of G-d's master plan. We recognized that G-d had been purifying us in the crucible of Egypt, slowly molding us into His nation, and preparing us for this grand and glorious moment when we would see our Creator face to face.

Singing because people, even wicked people, are drowning we could never do. Singing because G-d had revealed Himself to His nation and to the world -- such a song would reverberate throughout all the generations.

[muman613]

That's not true because the Rambam argued against your view in the Moreh Nevukhim.  I am sure you don't consider him to be a Jewish heretic.   I saw with my own eyes where he negates the view that the leaf blowing in the wind is G-d's will, saying that that is not the proper Jewish hashkafa (however this did come to be the view of the chassidim and notably rav tzadok hakohen who elaborates this and extends its logic to virtually negate free will almost entirely).  The Rambam limits hashgaha pratit to only those who have a commensurate level of intellect (ie humans) - the more rational thought, the more hashgaha G-d exerts on that group commensurate with the intelligence.  So rocks do not get hashgaha pratit.

Rambams own 13 principles says that Hashem is Omnipotent and Omniscient... There is nothing which he is not able to do. Although I agree that Hashgacha is only limited to humans, all forces of nature are under the control of Hashem.

I believe that there is a belief that Hasgacha on non-humans occur as a group or species...

From that Book I quoted above:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/80723/jewish/Brief-on-Hashgachah-Pratis.htm
With regard to the manner in which His providence is manifest… as explained in the texts of Kabbalah, and particularly, in the text Ailimah, there are three categories of existence in this world which do not receive reward or punishment: animals, plants, and inanimate objects…. They are watched over by angels appointed over… each of the species… to draw down influence to each of the species as a whole. However, for there to be specific providence to determine whether a particular ox will live or die… the archangels do not have the power to watch over such matters….

There is no providence over a particular animal, and how much more so, not over a particular plant or inanimate object. For the intent in their [existence] can be achieved when considering the species as a whole. There is no need for His providence to be manifest on the particular members of the species. On the contrary, whatever happens to the particular members of the species is absolute coincidence and is not decreed by G-d at all, unless it somehow concerns man….

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Yes, that was permitted, but there is a lot written that says we should not rejoice over our enemies downfall.. Even the angels protested when we sang at the shore of the Yam Suf.  

The angels protested?  HUH?

The midrash says that the angels rejoiced themselves and were rebuked by Hashem.    WE HUMANS were NOT rebuked by Hashem for our massive celebration.  The Torah says we sang and danced, the women played cymbals and sang together with miriam and danced with each other.   There is no amount of sophistry that can change the basic facts that we do celebrate the death of the wicked especially our national enemies.

The injunction not to rejoice "over our enemy's downfall" refers to personal grudges with other Jews (or perhaps other people in general).   That means about something petty like an argument or a dispute between you and something bad happens to him and you rejoice because you view him as an enemy who offended you (or whatever).  It certainly does not refer to a situation such as our nazi enemies being destroyed.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Rambams own 13 principles says that Hashem is Omnipotent and Omniscient... 

So what?   This doesn't contradict that, and obviously since Rambam wrote them both, he doesn't find it a contradiction at all (which it isn't).   Rambam believed that Hashem's hashgaha on the world was only GRANTED commensurate with intelligence and rational thought.   

THAT is a fact.   That others think differently, especially hassidim, is also a fact, but don't call the opposing view heretical!

There is nothing which he is not able to do. Although I agree that Hashgacha is only limited to humans, all forces of nature are under the control of Hashem. 

You said two different things at the same time.  Rambam did NOT believe that forces of nature were always under control of Hashem, an example he gives is the leaf blowing in the wind if I remember correctly, and he says that is simply not an expression of God's will.   You of course don't have to agree and can think differently, just please don't act so high-and-mighty that those who disagree with you are heretics.   

I personally tend toward the view of the Rambam because I think it's the most sensible.

I believe that there is a belief that Hasgacha on non-humans occur as a group or species...

From that Book I quoted above:

There are beliefs in many things, but my point was what Rambam believed, and how it contradicted directly what you claimed.   I am of course not saying you are forced to think a certain way, but you should rethink your insistence that others are, that's all.

[muman613]

The angels protested?  HUH?

The midrash says that the angels rejoiced themselves and were rebuked by Hashem.    WE HUMANS were NOT rebuked by Hashem for our massive celebration.  The Torah says we sang and danced, the women played cymbals and sang together with miriam and danced with each other.   There is no amount of sophistry that can change the basic facts that we do celebrate the death of the wicked especially our national enemies.

The injunction not to rejoice "over our enemy's downfall" refers to personal grudges with other Jews (or perhaps other people in general).   That means about something petty like an argument or a dispute between you and something bad happens to him and you rejoice because you view him as an enemy who offended you (or whatever).  It certainly does not refer to a situation such as our nazi enemies being destroyed.

I think you are missing the point of the Pirkie Avot which I posted above. It is not about people we have a squible with, it is including our enemies. The only time we are to rejoice in their downfall is because it reveals Hashems awesome nature to the world... Aside from that we should not rejoice...

I am also surprised you did not hear about the angels who protested when Hashem drowned the Egyptians. It is a well known story that the angels said "These worship Idols and those worship idols" saying that the Jews were not very different from the Egyptians who were drowned in the sea...


http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/chrysler/archives/bamidbar65.htm

Consequently, when G-d killed all the firstborn in Egypt, they were not worthy of being saved from the widespread plague (as the Angel of Egypt would later argue at the Yam-Suf - 'These worshipped idols and these worshipped idols! Why does the one merit salvation more than the other?')

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:ciIj-79glNAJ:www.puretorah.com/resources/Peninim%2520Booklet%2520-%2520Parshat%2520Bo.pdf+this+one+worships+idols+that+one+worships+idols+angels+yam+suf&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESicItNlt09rJFSfyRnDkmxZeKc7vFZ-KXBvj7sG2u_J9Sw252ysaSGy2IZUpQnT6Q1ceuXzNBXvAybOESoyJaR7gSqLLj4VgDNS7s-tqcV0ho4Nzd6UG1v3ZVuatKrNoX-RAk9L&sig=AHIEtbRM1tn9jJJVBsZA9RmHzy9A8fPCdQ&pli=1

Klal Yisrael’s deficient level of spirituality became apparent during the makas bechoros, when the firstborns of the Egyptians were killed. The Baal Haggadah tells us that it was Hashem Who passed through Egypt on that fateful night. Only Hashem--not an angel--could have discerned between Egyptian and Jew. The realm of distinction between Egyptian and Jew had narrowed so much, as a result of the Jew’s spiritual degeneration that an angel would not have been able to distinguish between the two.

We find that at the Yam Suf, the angels complained to Hashem. "Why do You spare the Jews while the Egyptians are drowning? These are idol worshippers, and those are idol worshippers! What advantage do the Jews have over the Egyptians? They are both sinners."

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

BTW, what Rabbi Rosenfeld wrote is a somewhat interesting explanation, but please bear in mind that it quite possibly has little or nothing to do with what Shmuel the Small said or meant!    He, Rabbi Rosenfeld, has created that explanation of the sources and I don't really find it inescapable or particularly compelling way of explaining Shmuel the Small's statements or reconciling them.   It can be one way of viewing it, but that is in no way "the gospel" which you sort of present it as Muman by quoting it and suggesting it's authoritative view of Judaism no one can stray from!

[muman613]

BTW, what Rabbi Rosenfeld wrote is a somewhat interesting explanation, but please bear in mind that it quite possibly has little or nothing to do with what Shmuel the Small said or meant!    He, Rabbi Rosenfeld, has created that explanation of the sources and I don't really find it inescapable or particularly compelling way of explaining Shmuel the Small's statements or reconciling them.   It can be one way of viewing it, but that is in no way "the gospel" which you sort of present it as Muman by quoting it and suggesting it's authoritative view of Judaism no one can stray from!

I simply say that this is what I have learned. I am trying to apply it to what we are talking about. Do not think that what I am saying is the 'gospel' of Jewish belief. It is simply application of things I have learned.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I think you are missing the point of the Pirkie Avot which I posted above. It is not about people we have a squible with, it is including our enemies.  

No, I think what is more likely, is that I clearly disagree with your rabbi's EXPLANATION of Pirkei Avot and his own creative interpretation which flatly contradicts basic facts about Torah and Judaism.   On those grounds I reject his explanation and I have listened to Rabbi Bar Hayim give a shiur on this topic and his arguments were sound - the warning against rejoicing over your enemy indeed has to do with personal enemies and grudges and petty squabbles!    The MOST one can possibly say in regards to the suffering of our genocidal enemy nations is that we shouldn't OVERLY enjoy their downfall and destruction and suffering, but to say it's forbidden to rejoice AT ALL, is simply not plausible.     Otherwise cancel the Purim holiday right now!  (And stop saying Hallel on Pesah, stop drinking 4 cups of wine, etc etc etc - God forbid.)

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

BTW, some of the evidence I remember off the top of my head - That verse in Mishlay (Proverbs) is in the singular form - It says Your enemy in the singular and your heart in the singular. 

[muman613]

So you don't like Rabbi Rosenfields interpretation? There are more Rabbis who say the same thing:

http://www.torahweb.org/torah/2001/moadim/rwil_hallel.html

http://www.torahweb.org/torah/2001/moadim/rwil_hallel.html
The Meshech Chochma (Shemos 12:16) answers as follows: "Purim is not celebrated on the anniversary of the victory against our enemies. Am Yisroel does not rejoice over the downfall and death of its foes. We celebrate Pesach because we were saved, not because our enemies perished, and we rejoice and read the Megillah on the day that we rested, the day after the war, when no one died, but we were saved.

http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/kahn/archives/beshalach64.htm

 Summary

As the Egyptians drown, the angels are reprimanded for singing. All humans are created in the image of G'd. Abraham was the great lover of all people. The Jewish soldier kills if necessary but is distressed by killing. Jews do not rejoice when their enemy falls.

This week's Torah attitude is that since all humans are created in the image of G'd, we do not take pleasure when others fall, even if they are enemies who tried to kill us.
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These words were based on a talk given by Rabbi Avraham Kahn, the Rosh Yeshiva and Founder of Yeshivas Keser Torah in Toronto.

http://www.chabad.org/dailystudy/tehillim.asp?tDate=3/7/2011

Chapter 7
Do not rejoice if God causes your enemy to suffer—just as the suffering of the righteous is not pleasant. David, therefore, defends himself intensely before God, maintaining that he did not actively harm Saul. In fact, Saul precipitated his own harm, while David’s intentions were only for the good.

I will add that I fully understand that we must curse the heretic... It is very important to remember that the sage who instituted this curse is also Shmuel HaKatan...

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/948893/jewish/Why-Pray-for-the-Destruction-of-our-Enemies.htm

Examining Shmuel Hakatan's other sayings (there aren't that many), we find a character that appears in striking contrast to the Shmuel Hakatan who composed a prayer against the heretics. In Ethics of the Fathers we read:

   Shmuel Hakatan would say: "When your enemy falls, do not rejoice; when he stumbles, let your heart not be gladdened. Lest G‑d see, and it will be displeasing in His eyes, and He will turn His wrath from him to you."8

Shmuel Hakatan is simply quoting the Book of Proverbs,9 yet the Mishnah cites this in his name. Why? Because this was a statement that typified him; something that would be continually not just on his lips but reflected in his actions. Never mind not praying for the punishment of the wicked, Shmuel Hakatan is of the opinion that even when they are already punished we should not rejoice. Hardly the one you would expect to rise to the occasion of formulating a prayer for the wicked to be punished!

All this leads us to the conclusion that there must be different types of sinners. For some we are permitted to pray that they be punished, while for others we are not.

Again we quote the Ethics:

   One who causes the community to be meritorious, no sin will come by his hand. One who causes the community to sin is not given the opportunity to repent.10

Commentaries11 explain that this means to say that Heaven does not help such an individual repent. The doors of repentance are never locked, but for some people, they may require a lot of pounding before they open.

This is the sort of person to whom the blessing against the heretics in the Amidah refers. Yes, we would all prefer to pray that this person repent rather than be punished. Furthermore, even if we could not pray for him to repent for whatever reason, we could just leave him alone and out of our prayers altogether—as long as his actions are not affecting anyone else. Here is an instance, however, where we are simply left no choice. We are told that Heaven does not help him to repent, so of what use is it to pray for him? Yet neither do we have the option to leave him be while he causes others to sin, informing upon us to the authorities and endangering the entire nation physically and spiritually.


http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/kahn/archives/beshalach68.htm

[muman613]

No, I think what is more likely, is that I clearly disagree with your rabbi's EXPLANATION of Pirkei Avot and his own creative interpretation which flatly contradicts basic facts about Torah and Judaism.   On those grounds I reject his explanation and I have listened to Rabbi Bar Hayim give a shiur on this topic and his arguments were sound - the warning against rejoicing over your enemy indeed has to do with personal enemies and grudges and petty squabbles!    The MOST one can possibly say in regards to the suffering of our genocidal enemy nations is that we shouldn't OVERLY enjoy their downfall and destruction and suffering, but to say it's forbidden to rejoice AT ALL, is simply not plausible.     Otherwise cancel the Purim holiday right now!  (And stop saying Hallel on Pesah, stop drinking 4 cups of wine, etc etc etc - G-d forbid.)

As I pointed it, it is not just one Rabbi who says this... Read my last post...

[muman613]

No, I think what is more likely, is that I clearly disagree with your rabbi's EXPLANATION of Pirkei Avot and his own creative interpretation which flatly contradicts basic facts about Torah and Judaism.   On those grounds I reject his explanation and I have listened to Rabbi Bar Hayim give a shiur on this topic and his arguments were sound - the warning against rejoicing over your enemy indeed has to do with personal enemies and grudges and petty squabbles!    The MOST one can possibly say in regards to the suffering of our genocidal enemy nations is that we shouldn't OVERLY enjoy their downfall and destruction and suffering, but to say it's forbidden to rejoice AT ALL, is simply not plausible.     Otherwise cancel the Purim holiday right now!  (And stop saying Hallel on Pesah, stop drinking 4 cups of wine, etc etc etc - G-d forbid.)

What I said is that rejoicing because Hashems glory is revealed is certainly permitted. But to rejoice because you think you were victorious just because you are more capable or more cunning is not permitted {at least according to my understanding}...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Yes Muman, there is no shortage of PC rabbis, yet it doesn't make their position any stronger, even if 10 million of them shout it.   And certainly it doesn't exclude other MORE PLAUSIBLE explanations!

[muman613]

As I pointed it, it is not just one Rabbi who says this... Read my last post...

I believe we don't say the full Hallel on Pesach...

http://www.torahweb.org/torah/2001/moadim/rwil_hallel.html

The Hallel of Purim, Pesach, and the Final Redemption

I

In the period between Purim and Pesach, it is instinctive to analyze a passage in the Talmud which deals with both holidays. The Gemara says in Megillah (14a), "If shira was said when we were delivered from slavery to freedom at yetzias mitzrayim, then when we are delivered from death to life we must certainly say shira". This is the source for the mitzvah of reading the megillah on Purim, and would obligate us to say Hallel on Purim if not for three technical reasons that the Gemara lists.

Rashi adds that Hallel is shira and the shira of yetzias mitzrayim is Shiras Hayam. This means that Shiras Hayam teaches a halacha for all generations, i.e., if Am Yisroel is delivered from a threat to its life, there is an obligation to say Hallel.

An obvious question can be raised. The Shiras Hayam describes supernatural miracles. But on Purim, no laws of nature were broken. How then can the Gemara derive the obligations of Purim from yetzias mitzrayim? Perhaps only miracles which break natural law obligate us to say shira, but not hidden miracles like those of Purim. In addition, the Gemara in Megillah 10b asks a second question. The angels wanted to say shira the night that the miracle of kriyas yam suf occurred, but Hashem said, "My creatures are drowning in the sea, and you want to say shira?!" Now, if the angels were told not to say shira because the Egyptians were drowning, then why do we say shira? And why do we read the Megillah on Purim?
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We do not recite the full Hallel on the seventh day of Pesach. The Gemara in Erchin (10b) explains that Pesach differs from Sukkos, when Hallelis said every day, because on Pesach the same Musaf offering is brought each day, whereas on Sukkos each day has a different Musaf. However, the Medrash says that Pesach differs because on the seventh day we cannot say full Hallel, since the Egyptians drowned. It would be wrong to recite full Hallel on Chol Hamoed and not on the seventh day which is Yom Tov, so it is omitted on all days after the first.

The Medrash seems to contradict the Gemara, as it gives a different reason as to why we do not say full Hallel. Many answer as follows: the Gemara explains why Pesach’s status as a Yom Tov does not obligate us to say Hallel even on the seventh day. The reason is that Pesach is one long Yom Tov, and therefore does not require a new recitation of the full Hallel each and every day, whereas Sukkos is eight different Yomim Tovim, each of which warrants a recitation of the full Hallel. The fact that the Musaf is identical all seven days of Pesach but changes each day of Sukkos indicates this distinction.

The Medrash relates to a different issue: why we do not say Hallel because of the miracles of Kriyas Yam Suf. The reason is that when Hashem’s creatures drown in the sea, we should not say shira.

[muman613]

The only thing a Jew should rejoice is that Hashem is revealed through our service. Otherwise we will become more arrogant and believe that we are saved because of our own merits. Over and over again Torah warns that we should not believe that we should not become arrogant in this respect.

The only thing I rejoice is that Hashem is the master of the world, and his glory will be revealed through the Jewish people.

http://shemayisrael.co.il/pipermail/daf-insights_shemayisrael.co.il/2004-August/000095.html

2) RECITING HALLEL ON THE LAST DAYS OF PESACH

QUESTION: The Gemara (end of 10a) asks why we recite Hallel only on the first day of Pesach, while we recite Hallel on *all* of the days of Sukos. The Gemara answers that each day of Sukos has a different Korban, and
therefore each day is considered to be a separate Yom Tov in some respect and warrants the recitation of Hallel. The days of Pesach, in contrast, all have the same Korbanos, and thus Hallel is recited only on the first day.

The TAZ (OC 490:3) offers a different reason based on the Midrash (Yalkut Shimoni, end of Mishlei 2:960; Pesikta d'Rav Kahana, end of #29). The Midrash relates that the angels wanted to sing in joy at Keri'as Yam Suf when the Jews were saved and the Egyptians drowned. Hashem said to them, "The works of My hands are drowning in the sea and you wish to recite Shirah?!" Therefore, we do not recite Shirah (Hallel) during the rest of Pesach. (See Insights to Megilah 10:2.)

Why does the Midrash give a different reason than that of the Gemara?

ANSWER: There are two basic reasons for reciting Hallel. First, we recite Hallel on festival days in order to praise Hashem as we celebrate His festival (see RAMBAN, Shoresh 1, who understands that reciting Hallel is part of the Mitzvah of Simchas Yom Tov). Second, we recite Hallel in order to commemorate a miraculous salvation from danger.

The Gemara here is asking why we do not recite Hallel on all of the days of Pesach because of the first reason mentioned above -- since each day is a Mo'ed, and part of the Yom Tov joy is to recite Hallel. The Gemara answers that the ensuing days of Pesach are not considered independent Mo'adim, as we see from the fact that each day does not have its own unique Korban (as does each day of Sukos). The Midrash, however, is addressing a different question -- why do we not recite Hallel on the last day of Pesach because of the miraculous salvation (Keri'as Yam Suf) that occurred on that day (the second reason mentioned above)? The Midrash answers that since some of Hashem's creations were destroyed by this miracle, it is not fitting to recite Hallel to commemorate such a salvation.
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[muman613]

I am not arguing with you trying to make you believe what I believe... But I am just presenting the information which supports the reason I feel the way I do...