Moshe Feiglin Speaks about Glenn Beck

[Yaakov Mendel]

I think the irony in this is that they are attacking not the Christians that are anti-Semitic but the ones who aren't, as if they don't fit what a Christian should be somehow in their eyes and want to some how correct them and say 'no, you're an anti-Semite, stop lying to yourself and to us'. So then the Christian either says 'fine you have this attitude I WILL be then' or they have patience and try not to let such behavior drive them away or over the edge. The second choice is obviously the better one.

Good point. Be patient. Sane Jews know that there are Christians who are true friends of them.

[Yaakov Mendel]

You know what is ignorant for anyone to think one group of people OWN the holy land, the holy land has roots in many religions including the Christian religion, Israel and the Jewish people are the Keepers as they should be, they run the show.
I will not argue with you but I would like to know how the Catholics are going to take over the holy land???
You are very intelligent tell us how.  Thank you.

Look, sorry, but KWR BT is right on this one. The Vatican has led a very anti-Israel policy over the years.
And, yes, Israel belongs to the Jewish people. There is nothing to negotiate here.

[muman613]

You know what is ignorant for anyone to think one group of people OWN the holy land, the holy land has roots in many religions including the Christian religion, Israel and the Jewish people are the Keepers as they should be, they run the show.
I will not argue with you but I would like to know how the Catholics are going to take over the holy land???
You are very intelligent tell us how.  Thank you.

I dont know how old you are but it seems you have missed great chunks of History.

First of all. The FIRST religion which held that Jerusalem was a Holy city was Judaism. And from Judaism two other so-called 'monotheistic faiths' branched off from Judaism and then asserted this 'replacement theology' which basically said that the Jews no longer are the chosen people, and now the Christians or the Muslims are the chosen ones and the Jews are children of Satan or decended from pigs and apes... The fact that others came along and stole our Holy Land does not excuse the fact that the land and the holiness of the spot was Stolen from the Jewish people. G-d himself says that he established an EVERLASTING COVENANT with the Jewish people and this covenant WILL NEVER be destroyed. So the very concept of replacement theology stands against the very 'Testament' which these religions hold as their link to the divine {our HOLY TORAH}.

Second, the Vatican has worked long and hard to rid the world of the Jewish people. Only in 1964 during the second vatican council was the accusation of 'DEICIDE' removed from their sermons. The accusation that the Jews killed the Christian G-d is ridiculous and it led to antisemitism which still exists to this day.

The Vatican to this day is working hard to make sure that the Jewish people are dislocated from our land...

Evidence most recently in 2000 when the Vatican made a pact with Arafat:

http://www.ou.org/public_affairs/article/ou_criticizes_vatican_pa_pact_on_jerusalem

OU Criticizes Vatican-P.A. Pact on Jerusalem
February 23, 2000
Today, the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America - the nation’s largest Orthodox Jewish umbrella organization, through its Institute for Public Affairs criticized the Vatican’s recently signed agreement with the Palestinian Authoriy.

The agreement, signed by Pope John Paul II and Yasser Arafat, is an attempt by the Vatican to inappropriately influence the peace process. The agreement comes at a crucial stage of the peace process and places unnecessary pressure on already tense negotiations. The agreement’s attempt to redefine Jerusalem as a "international city" is an assault on Jerusalem’s status as the eternal and indivisible capital of the State of Israel.

Orthodox Union President, Dr. Mandell Ganchrow stated "throughout its history, Israel has taken extraordinary steps to protect religious freedom for people of all religions. This agreement’s insinuation that Israel has not met, or exceeded, all of her obligations in regard to the protection of the holy sites and the religious rights of all individuals is an insult to the State of Israel." Ganchrow went on to add that "this agreement is a violation of previous agreements signed by Israel and the Palestinians limiting the types of agreements that the Palestinian Authority could make."

http://www.templeinstitute.org/archive/03-21-00.htm

Last month, in the very midst of Israel's fever-pitch preparations for the Pope's visit this week, Israel was shocked to find that the Vatican announced the signing of a special agreement with the PLO. What a remarkable alliance! But truthfully, it is understandable if the peace-loving, godly Pope has apparently forgotten that the Nobel-prize winning Arafat is the most accomplished terrorist and murderer of our generation, single- handedly responsible for the deaths of scores of innocent men, women and children. After all, this is the man who proved to the entire world that murder really does pay off, for he has received recognition, and is accepted internationally as a head of state. Besides, America's leader has embraced Arafat and put good faith in him, and more importantly, in utter madness beyond all sane reasoning, in their self-imposed death march, so have the Israelis - so, who could blame the Pope?

http://www.ou.org/index.php/shabbat_shalom/article/53703/

Pope Benedict XVI’s recent eight-day pilgrimage to Jordan, Israel and the Palestinian territories can best be understood in historical perspective.

When in 1904 Theodor Herzl, founder of Zionism, turned to Pope Pius X for support for a Jewish state, he was told that until the Jewish people converted to Christianity, the Church would do nothing to establish a Jewish state and that Roman Catholic priests would be waiting on the shores of Palestine to convert those pioneers who returned to Palestine.

Fast forward 60 years to January, 1964, and the first ever papal visit to Israel - by Pope Paul VI. During his short unofficial trip to Israel - it lasted only 11 hours - Paul VI never once uttered the name of the State of Israel, refused to call Zalman Shazar “President”, and went out of his way to avoid using the word Jews.

With Catholic triumphalism still the official theology, the Vatican viewed Israel as a non-country, and its people as persona non grata. Paul VI even used the occasion to praise his mentor Pope Pius XII, defending the latter's silence during the Holocaust.

The following year, the Vatican issued the historic Nostra Aetate declaration on the relation of the Church to non-Christian religions. Nostra Aetate ultimately led to the Holy See and Israel establishing diplomatic ties in 1993.

Those relations reached their apogee in March 2000 when Pope John Paul II arrived for the first-ever official papal visit to the Holy Land. The Polish-born pontiff blessed Israel, an act seen by many Israelis as final church recognition of their state and repudiation of the Catholic Church’s centuries-long teaching of contempt that the Jews' exile was punishment for the death of Jesus.

But the current pontiff Joseph Ratzinger is no Karol Wojtyła. The former was a member of the HitlerJugend in his native Germany before being drafted into Hitler’s Wehrmacht; the latter grew up in Nazi-occupied Poland and was a witness to the Holocaust. Moreover John Paul II was a figure of enormous charisma and charm while his successor is widely seen as aloof.

Benedict XVI’s official visit must be seen against this background. The visit got off to an inauspicious start during the pontiff’s visit to Yad Vashem. While beatitude is in the eye of the beholder, the Pope angered many Israelis by refusing to visit the Holocaust memorial’s museum – which contains a panel criticizing Pope Pius XII’s role during World War II. Even more offensive was Benedict XVI's speech.

"A few points were missing in the pope's address. There was no mention of the Germans, or Nazis, who carried out the massacre. There was not a word of sharing the grief or of compassion or pain for the six million victims,” Rabbi Yisrael Meir Lau, a former chief rabbi and now chairman of the Yad Vashem Council, told Israel TV Channel One shortly afterwards.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_Vatican_Council

One of the more controversial documents was Nostra Aetate, which stated that the Jews of the time of Christ, taken indiscriminately, and all Jews today are no more responsible for the death of Christ than Christians.

    True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ; still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ. Furthermore, in her rejection of every persecution against any man, the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel's spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone.[21]

[briann]

But Moshe Feiglin is not on the left, and there is an issue even with the religious right concerning Beck... There is a problem that the Christians are just expecting the Jews to conveniently forget about ages of persecution for not believing in their messiah. Where my family emigrated from in the Ukraine there were massive pogroms against the Jews. Look at the list of places the Jews were expelled from over the centuries and it is hard to say that they were all exiled because they were liberal leftists.

I do agree that the liberal left hates Beck. I do not hate him in the least. I just have legitimate questions as to the reasons for his support of Israel. As KWRBT has pointed out the recent history shows that the vatican and other christian apparatuses really want to get land in Israel for their churches and want to make Jerusalem an 'international city'.

But I disagree with you Briann that our discussion here has anything to do with left wing self-hating Jews.

Muman, I didnt bring up the left wing self-hating Jews outa nowhere, I was just adding on to what a previous poster said (I think it was Dr. Dan)

And What Moshe said, wasnt that Jews should be careful and should never forget history.  Moshe said Glen Beck has ulterior motives to remove Judaism from Israel and guess what???  Moshe is wrong, and this should be pointed out.

YES, I understand that to many Israeli Jews, it seems perplexing that 95% of White American Gentiles would support a Jewish state, but maybe Moshe should figure out WHY, before dismissing Beck (their Archetype) as just another person who wants to remove Judaism from Israel.

Maybe, he should go to JTF and see the what the gentiles say.  Maybe he should listen to Beck and his unwavering and unflinching support for Judaism.  Maybe he should listen to the countless groups of gentiles that belong to groups like Christians united for Israel, and see what they say... maybe he should be more knowledgeable on such a significant issue.

Honestly, before I saw JTF and started to Listen to Beck and others, I too was sorta in the dark about gentiles.  That doesn't mean I suddenly forget about history, it means, at LEAST I started to understand WHY.

I agree with what Dr. Dan is saying, I obviously beleive that Moshe DOES have Jewish interests at heart, BUT Chaim is 1000x more knowledgable when it comes to gentiles and their motivation, and Moshe's ignorance is not helping Jews the way he thinks it is.

[muman613]

For more background of the Catholics Churches influence on antisemitism read this:

http://www.innernet.org.il/article.php?aid=560

THE CRUSADES

[Nearly 1,000 years ago, the Crusader 'holy war' was launched.] In general, the Church found Muslim control of Christian holy places in Israel intolerable, especially when reports came from Jerusalem of harassment of Christians visiting the holy sites. As such, in 1095 Pope Urban II called for an army of Christians to conquer Israel from its Muslim rulers... The Church saw as its mission spreading Christian rule, which they termed the "Kingdom of G-d," over the heathen infidels...

Although the Pope viewed the Crusades as a campaign led by a professional, well-trained army, the excursion rapidly evolved into a mass movement, with an estimated 100,000 people dropping everything to join. As a proportion of the European population, a comparable response today would be well over a million people "taking the cross," as it was known. In addition, the Church provided a further incentive by promising that whoever took part in the endeavor would earn a special place in heaven. From that moment, participants were known as Crusaders, after the French word for the crosses affixed to their garments.

The First Crusade started out from France in 1095. In order to remain in the good graces of the Crusaders, French Jews supplied funds and food for the journey. However, when some of the Crusaders reached Germany, their mood changed drastically. Among many Crusaders the feeling grew rapidly that before they attacked the heathens in far-off Palestine, there were infidels much closer to home with whom they should contend.

In May 1096, in a period of four weeks, frenzied bands of Crusaders struck the Jewish communities of Speyer, Worms, Mainz and Cologne. The Jews were offered the option of conversion to Christianity or death; the vast majority chose the path of sanctification of G-d's name... Estimates of the toll taken on the Jewish communities range from 3,000 to 10,000 deaths...

Undaunted, unstoppable, the Crusaders conquered Israel, reaching Jerusalem in 1099. Once there, they gathered all the Jews of Jerusalem into the central synagogue and set it afire. Other Jews, who had climbed to the roof of Al-Aksa mosque on the Temple Mount, were caught and beheaded. The Crusader leader, Godfrey of Bouillon, wrote to the Pope, "If you want to know what has been done with the enemy found in Jerusalem... our people had their vile blood up to the knees of their horses." After this victory, the Crusaders retained control of Jerusalem for close to 100 years.

Although compared to later tragedies the loss of Jewish life was relatively small, with the main devastation occurring in but four Rhineland towns, the First Crusade has generally been regarded by Jews as a disaster of epic proportions. The period of counting the omer, between Passover and Shavuot, when the massacres occurred, became fixed in Jewish law as a time for mourning. A prayer commemorating the martyrs, "Av HaRachamim," was added to the Sabbath morning services and is still recited weekly, except on joyous occasions. Several Kinnos were composed remembering these events and became part of the Tishah B'Av service. There are several reasons why the First Crusade has been given such prominence, while other, seemingly far greater tragedies have not:

The four towns destroyed were major Torah centers of Ashkenazic Jewry. Although Jews resettled and rebuilt these communities, and Ashkenazic Torah centers flourished, the greatness of these cities' martyred scholars was lost forever.
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[Dr. Dan]

Look, sorry, but KWR BT is right on this one. The Vatican has led a very anti-Israel policy over the years.
And, yes, Israel belongs to the Jewish people. There is nothing to negotiate here.

and I will add, gentiles are allowed to come and worship there.  Even with the third temple there will be an area for them to go.

[Dr. Dan]

Muman, I didnt bring up the left wing self-hating Jews outa nowhere, I was just adding on to what a previous poster said (I think it was Dr. Dan)

And What Moshe said, wasnt that Jews should be careful and should never forget history.  Moshe said Glen Beck has ulterior motives to remove Judaism from Israel and guess what???  Moshe is wrong, and this should be pointed out.

YES, I understand that to many Israeli Jews, it seems perplexing that 95% of White American Gentiles would support a Jewish state, but maybe Moshe should figure out WHY, before dismissing Beck (their Archetype) as just another person who wants to remove Judaism from Israel.

Maybe, he should go to JTF and see the what the gentiles say.  Maybe he should listen to Beck and his unwavering and unflinching support for Judaism.  Maybe he should listen to the countless groups of gentiles that belong to groups like Christians united for Israel, and see what they say... maybe he should be more knowledgeable on such a significant issue.

Honestly, before I saw JTF and started to Listen to Beck and others, I too was sorta in the dark about gentiles.  That doesn't mean I suddenly forget about history, it means, at LEAST I started to understand WHY.

I agree with what Dr. Dan is saying, I obviously beleive that Moshe DOES have Jewish interests at heart, BUT Chaim is 1000x more knowledgable when it comes to gentiles and their motivation, and Moshe's ignorance is not helping Jews the way he thinks it is.

I should add that Feiglin is missing the huge picture.  It's not Beck who is trying to replace Judaism or remove it from Israel.. It is the anti-religious left wing Jews who are trying to do that!!!

[Dr. Dan]

For more background of the Catholics Churches influence on antisemitism read this:

http://www.innernet.org.il/article.php?aid=560

Muman, I think it is good to add these as a part of a historical context to support your point of view.  However, if you disagree with me, can you tell me what you disagree with and why.  And what do you agree with what I have written.  Your opinion is important to me.

[muman613]

Muman, I think it is good to add these as a part of a historical context to support your point of view.  However, if you disagree with me, can you tell me what you disagree with and why.  And what do you agree with what I have written.  Your opinion is important to me.

I was not posting that in reply to your posts... I was trying to remind jbeige of the historical context of the Catholic church in relation to Jerusalem.

[Dr. Dan]

I was not posting that in reply to your posts... I was trying to remind jbeige of the historical context of the Catholic church in relation to Jerusalem.

I know you were.  I just want to know what you think about what I wrote in regards to the redemption of Israel and which has the most merit.  I think that a concerted effort by a lot of Jews and righteous gentiles amongst them gives the most merit versus one righteous gentile or one righteous Jew.

[briann]

I was not posting that in reply to your posts... I was trying to remind jbeige of the historical context of the Catholic church in relation to Jerusalem.

Im starting to think this thread should be split into two, lol.

I am glad that your are letting jbeige know of the Catholic church and its evil history.   No question about it.

I would like to mention that while all that is certainly true, and should never be forgotten, their pre-65 views really HAVE started to wane (Obviously not completely)

That doesnt mean I think they are pro-Jew, certainly not like protestants, BUT, both Paul and Benedict have been quite vocal at saying the old pre-65 views which were the basis of Catholic jew-hatred are nonsense and go against their own gospels, etc.  I know it was late, but it HAS made a change.
Even Benedict, who is a fossil himself and was a Hitler Youth has rejected the evil nonsense pre-65 Catholic stupidity.

Again,  Im not a Catholic Church apologist, not at all.  but they I have seen them SLOWLY change for the better.  And I think its that slow change that has helped bring catholic members to this forum... something that probably would NOT have happened in the 1960's or even the 1980's. 

[Dr. Dan]

Im starting to think this thread should be split into two, lol.

I am glad that your are letting jbeige know of the Catholic church and its evil history.   No question about it.

I would like to mention that while all that is certainly true, and should never be forgotten, their pre-65 views really HAVE started to wane (Obviously not completely)

That doesnt mean I think they are pro-Jew, certainly not like protestants, BUT, both Paul and Benedict have been quite vocal at saying the old pre-65 views which were the basis of Catholic jew-hatred are nonsense and go against their own gospels, etc.  I know it was late, but it HAS made a change.
Even Benedict, who is a fossil himself and was a Hitler Youth has rejected the evil nonsense pre-65 Catholic stupidity.

Again,  Im not a Catholic Church apologist, not at all.  but they I have seen them SLOWLY change for the better.  And I think its that slow change that has helped bring catholic members to this forum... something that probably would NOT have happened in the 1960's or even the 1980's. 

Or perhaps they became smarter and don't say what they mean outright.  Back in the day, Europe was full of Nazis.. Now they sound normal, but still push for Israel's suicide.  The same, unfortunately, is true with the spokes people of the Catholic Church.

[muman613]

I know you were.  I just want to know what you think about what I wrote in regards to the redemption of Israel and which has the most merit.  I think that a concerted effort by a lot of Jews and righteous gentiles amongst them gives the most merit versus one righteous gentile or one righteous Jew.

I do believe that a righteous gentile has great merit in the Jewish belief. The Torah clearly holds these non-Jews who come to believe in the one G-d of Israel in high esteem. The first such great 'converts' to Judaism was Yitro, who was for all intent and purpose a High Priest of Idolatry.

Certainly a Jew who renounces his birth-right and despises his inheritance is a chillul Hashem and they lose merit, and may even lose their Olam Haba...

[Rubystars]

Rubystars, I agree with you on this.  On the one hand I can understand vigilance against Christians by many right wing Jews because of the past.  I accept it.  On the other hand, it's not smart, in my opinion to turn away the support.  Of course, when accepting support, a vigilant Jew should add his disclaimer and be like, "listen, this is how it is and how it's going to be.  If you don't agree and you have other intentions, I'm sorry, this isn't going to work."

On the other hand there should be some understanding from the Christians as to why there is this barrier and that's where the patience should come from, but nobody likes to be treated as if they're a rattlesnake either.

[Dr. Dan]

On the other hand there should be some understanding from the Christians as to why there is this barrier and that's where the patience should come from, but nobody likes to be treated as if they're a rattlesnake either.

Exactly.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

i Think this all comes from systematic brainwashing, the same thing that has happened here in the U.S.

Jews are taught to NOT trust gentiles and to be TOLERANT of everything else (Including Islam).  Members of Peace Now have this hard-wired in them... so if they see Glen Beck supporting Israel, it goes against everything that was programmed into them.... They absolutely CANNOT have Right-wing Gentiles disrupt their brainwashed preconceived ideas and they REFUSE to let Judaism be perceived as anything other than Leftist.

if 50% of Muslims say the Hollocaust is a myth, Leftist Jews ignores it...... But if Glen Beck says, 'I share your G-d' the Leftists focus in on it with a laser... and say.... Look, its the Spanish Inquisition.

WOW
This thread gets sicker by the day.  Since I disagree with you I'm brainwashed?   Really that's hilarious.  Can you tell me who brainwashed me and who taught me not to trust gentiles.  Perhaps you're forgetting I grew up reform and the reform "rabbi" preached that jews and gentiles are all the same, so how did I become brainwashed?   

No let's face facts I come to the conclusion based on the facts.  If you're not aware of facts calling me brainwashed doesn't help you.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Did Glenn Beck ever say it should belong to anyone but Jews?

What he said was this:

"“They are going to attack the center of our faith, our common faith, and that is Jerusalem. And it won’t be with bullets or bombs. It will be with a two-state solution that cuts off Jerusalem, the old city, to the rest of the world.”"

I do not know much about his particular brand of religion, and I seriously wonder if it would even allow him to note that the city belongs to the Jews.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

You know what is ignorant for anyone to think one group of people OWN the holy land, the holy land has roots in many religions

And there it is, folks.

[JTFenthusiast2]

Feiglin should shut his fat trap.   He doesn't have too much to say about the Arabs who infest Israel, but is a real big mouth  when it comes to Glen Beck.  That's because it's safe and easy to attack Beck.   Feiglin likes to hear himself talk.   Israel finally has an extremely influential media personality who is genuinely on Israel's side, and Feglin is gonna f.... everything up. 

AGREED BIG TIME!

[Dr. Dan]

And there it is, folks.

Here in lies the problem.  The jews don't want jerusalem.  The israeli government doesn't fight hard enough for it.  The us and the world could say this or that.  Israel might day no once our twice until they give in.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Here in lies the problem.  The jews don't want jerusalem.  The israeli government doesn't fight hard enough for it.  The us and the world could say this or that.  Israel might day no once our twice until they give in.

I think you're missing the point of the quote though.

[Lisa]

I think what Briann was trying to say (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) is that most American Jews, who are of Ashkenazic ancestry, and who are liberal, have a deep down fear of white, right wing Christians.  Given the horrible history of their persecution in Europe, I don't blame them.  I say "them" because I'm not of Ashkenazic ancestry.  The other thing is that the media always labels Nazism as "right wing" which is completely wrong.  Unfortunately, many people (Jews and non-Jews) buy into this. 

In the case of Glenn Beck, you have a white, conservative Mormon, of German ancestry who is very pro-Zionist.  So someone like Feiglin will be scared by that. 

Now as for Beck himself, I like him.  Right now, I don't sense any missionary intent from him either. 

[mord]

Glenn Beck enumerated all these and much more all the tragedies that befell the Jews.I saw him on a live feed on my computer he was speaking at the CUFI convention

[Rubystars]

What he said was this:

"“They are going to attack the center of our faith, our common faith, and that is Jerusalem. And it won’t be with bullets or bombs. It will be with a two-state solution that cuts off Jerusalem, the old city, to the rest of the world.”"

I do not know much about his particular brand of religion, and I seriously wonder if it would even allow him to note that the city belongs to the Jews.

Mormonism is not a good religion AT ALL in my opinion. Its only merit is that it's relatively peaceful to outsiders (they ring people's doorbells, but don't blow themselves up with suicide vests when people answer the door or anything horrible like that) but I have never heard him personally advocate for a two state solution. Your quotation from him would show that he is against it, and really that's enough right now as far as helping Israel. If there is no two state solution, the ownership of Jerusalem will be the Jews by default, not the Mormon church. If he starts doing so then of course we should stand against him.

My impression of Glenn Beck as an individual is generally a good one even if I think his religion is kooky at best.

[nessuno]

This is craziness!

Israel, and especially Jerusalem, holds historical and religious importance to many groups of people.  Not just the Jews.  It is just a fact.  That is why we stand with you.  Not against you.  
Yet...many of you sit here and rip us apart.  

What has Glen Beck done to earn your distrust?  He is a Mormon?  So what.  How is that a threat to you?  
You must have confidence in your own faith.  Otherwise, everyone is a perceived threat and that makes you weak.