Do you support establishing a separate new Jewish State in Judea and Samaria?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I agree with Meir Kahane,zecher tzadik livracha , but he did not call for a separate Jewish state. He simply pointed out that the IDF was not needed to defend the settlers, as long as the settlers were allowed to do what they had to do to defend themselves.

Settlers will never be "allowed to do what they have to do to defend themselves" by the current regime.    That is another form of population control, and another reason to dissociate from the state.    Make no mistake about it, so long as the state of Israel maintains full sovereignty over these settlement areas, the IDF will maintain a presence there.    So we need to put 2 and 2 together from what the Rabbi was saying, it's quite obvious that the only way the IDF leaves is if the settlers in those places declare their dissociation from the state and demands the IDF's removal from their territory.    How exactly do you envision the IDF leaving if those settlers remain subjects of Bibi the Destroyer and loyal followers of the state of Israel, rather than setting up a provisional govt, creating self-sufficient means of survival (currently they depend too much on the govt to survive day to day), self-defense forces, and then calling upon the IDF to remove itself from land they are declaring as their own sovereign territory (especially since Israel never annexed it)?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I would like to see Torah Jews try the same technique that the fakestinians are using in an attempt to claim additional land outside of the existing borders. Maybe in Egypt, Syria or Jordan. Since the current Israeli government does not represent their needs, the UN should entitle them to their own land.  

Good point, and I agree with this sentiment.   And there is a lot we can learn from how the Arabs brought the Israeli regime to its knees.

[Maimonides]

Explain to me why the IDF would fight them?    They are not declaring war on the IDF by 'breaking away' as you term it.    I just don't get this mentality.    Did the IDF crush any of Israel's enemies in the past 30 years?  Ever?

Settlers will never be "allowed to do what they have to do to defend themselves" by the current regime.    That is another form of population control, and another reason to dissociate from the state.    Make no mistake about it, so long as the state of Israel maintains full sovereignty over these settlement areas, the IDF will maintain a presence there.    So we need to put 2 and 2 together from what the Rabbi was saying, it's quite obvious that the only way the IDF leaves is if the settlers in those places declare their dissociation from the state and demands the IDF's removal from their territory.    How exactly do you envision the IDF leaving if those settlers remain subjects of Bibi the Destroyer and loyal followers of the state of Israel, rather than setting up a provisional govt, creating self-sufficient means of survival (currently they depend too much on the govt to survive day to day), self-defense forces, and then calling upon the IDF to remove itself from land they are declaring as their own sovereign territory (especially since Israel never annexed it)?

You contradict yourself. First you state that the IDF won't do anything to the settlers if they "break off" from Israel, and then you state the current establishment won't let the settlers live and flourish in Judea and Samaria.
The fact is the IDF uses violence against the settlers without any of the concerns they have have when dealing with the Israel's foreign enemies.

The current Israeli government will crush any settlers that declare their independence from Israel.

[Maimonides]

Quotes from our forum member, MaimonidesThat was true for Shaul {Saul} who was annointed by the prophet Shmuel {Samuel} to be king over Israel. However, this was not true, regarding Shaul's son. In this case, David did split off and established a separate Judean Kingdom that in time spread.
Quote by Maimonides Reread the Tanach. This is not the reason that Hashem punished the Kingdom of David. In addition, a person has to have his eyes on present day realities and not slogans. If present day realities, show that working separately accomplishes more we work separately.
In addition you without realizing it support my argument. The Irgun and Lechi did not blindly submit to the leadership of hagana for the sake of unity. They went their separate ways, because they thought they could help the Jewish cause better without acting under a unified Hagana banner.
Also historically, while the Irgun did not fight back against Hagana's backstabbing. Lechi did react. And I am told their reaction actually had a very positive impact.
Quote by Maimonides  He did call for a Judean state. Do some further research if you don't believe me.

When did Lehi fight against the Haganah?

Do you think that when the Kingdom of Israel broke up between the Kingdom of Israel and Kingdom if Judah that was good for the Hebrew nation?

[Dr. Dan]

When did Lehi fight against the Haganah?

Do you think that when the Kingdom of Israel broke up between the Kingdom of Israel and Kingdom if Judah that was good for the Hebrew nation?

When the two Kingdoms broke away originally, the north was evil because of idolatry.  The other kingdom was evil because the king treated his people harshly. 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

You contradict yourself. First you state that the IDF won't do anything to the settlers if they "break off" from Israel, and then you state the current establishment won't let the settlers live and flourish in Judea and Samaria.
The fact is the IDF uses violence against the settlers without any of the concerns they have have when dealing with the Israel's foreign enemies.

The current Israeli government will crush any settlers that declare their independence from Israel.

I did not contradict myself.  I think you are just not understanding me.

The settlers will never be allowed to do what is necessary for their self defense by the current regime, so long as they remain subjects of the state and dependent on the IDF (an agent of the state) for protection.     If the status quo remains, the settlers are at the whims of the arab-loving upper eschelons of the IDF and its employers.   In this current situation, the IDF prevents the settlers from defending themselves.  It takes away their weapons.  It allows and encourages arab attacks.   And it is the IDF's job to control these areas, with the yesha council begging them to stay and save everyone from the arabs.      

Do you think the IDF will just magically change its mind?   Suddenly they'll wake up one day and have a 'change of heart' and change their operating procedures for no reason at all?    Not a chance.

If the settlers extract themselves from the state of Israel and demonstrate their unwillingness to be "defended" by the IDF, the IDF will not be duty-bound to defend land areas which the Israeli govt cedes to settlers or just withdraws from.   The nascent state in Judea can be a proxy for the state of Israel or simply not engage with it.   But there is no reason the IDF has to "declare war" and start treating settlers like they are hamas!   Where do you get that idea from?     The settlements are a 'headache' which the state of Israel does not want. Who can't see that by now?     If settlers make facts on the ground and start demonstrating independence and self-sufficiency, it will be the greatest gift the Israeli regime could ask for.    And then when Jewish reprisals finally start to occur on the Arabs, the Israeli govt can wash its hands of it and say we have nothing to do with the people there.

The IDF is there because of settlers; it is not there because the Israeli govt thinks we the Jewish people belong in the land of Abraham Isaac and Jacob and therefore the Israeli govt asserts its rights to the territory.   lol, the Israeli govt thinks that land is arab land!  

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

 lol, the Israeli govt thinks that land is arab land!  

 Don't forget leftist/athiests think themselves to be "moral" people. They will fight the Jews if need be in order to restore the land to arabs. And go in to stop them "crazy Jews" from committing "crimes" against Arabs.

 Also don't forget they probably still want to suck taxes and other resources from as many Jews as possible.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Don't forget leftist/athiests think themselves to be "moral" people. They will fight the Jews if need be in order to restore the land to arabs. And go in to stop them "crazy Jews" from committing "crimes" against Arabs.

 Also don't forget they probably still want to suck taxes and other resources from as many Jews as possible.

Whoever are the leftists/ atheists, I guess they don't realize how an "illegal" unsanctioned army of Judea would treat them (and their arab lovers).  Their activities won't last very long.

[muman613]

I do not want a civil war... But I would support a Judean state, a Torah observant Jewish state...

[edu]

jtf member Maimonides asked me, when did the lehi (or lechi) fight the hagana?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haganah
states the following:

In 1944, after the assassination of Lord Moyne, (the British Minister of State for the Middle East), by members of the Lehi, the Haganah worked with the British to kidnap, interrogate, and in some cases, deport Irgun members. This action was called The Saison, or hunting season, and was directed against the Irgun and not the Lehi]. Future Jerusalem mayor Teddy Kollek was later revealed to be the official most responsible, under the code name Scorpion, for turning Irgun activists over to the British authorities.

Many Jewish youth, who had joined the Haganah in order to defend the Jewish people, were greatly demoralized by operations against their own people. The Irgun, paralyzed by the Saison, were ordered by their commander, Menachem Begin, not to retaliate in an effort to avoid a full blown civil war. Although many Irgunists objected to these orders, they obeyed Begin and refrained from fighting back. The Saison eventually ended due to perceived British betrayal becoming more obvious to the public and Haganah youth becoming increasingly vocal in their opposition to the policy.

A Kahanist friend of mine who is knowledgeable about the period, claims the real reason that the Haganah did not go after the Lehi, in contrast to the Irgun, was because Hagana leaders were threatened that they would receive a violent reaction from the Lehi against them, if they turned over Lehi people.

[Maimonides]

jtf member Maimonides asked me, when did the lehi (or lechi) fight the hagana?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haganah
states the following:A Kahanist friend of mine who is knowledgeable about the period, claims the real reason that the Haganah did not go after the Lehi, in contrast to the Irgun, was because Hagana leaders were threatened that they would receive a violent reaction from the Lehi against them, if they turned over Lehi people.

Well then we never will know what would happen had Lehi actually struck Haganah.

[Maimonides]

I did not contradict myself.  I think you are just not understanding me.

The settlers will never be allowed to do what is necessary for their self defense by the current regime, so long as they remain subjects of the state and dependent on the IDF (an agent of the state) for protection.     If the status quo remains, the settlers are at the whims of the arab-loving upper eschelons of the IDF and its employers.   In this current situation, the IDF prevents the settlers from defending themselves.  It takes away their weapons.  It allows and encourages arab attacks.   And it is the IDF's job to control these areas, with the yesha council begging them to stay and save everyone from the arabs.      

Do you think the IDF will just magically change its mind?   Suddenly they'll wake up one day and have a 'change of heart' and change their operating procedures for no reason at all?    Not a chance.

If the settlers extract themselves from the state of Israel and demonstrate their unwillingness to be "defended" by the IDF, the IDF will not be duty-bound to defend land areas which the Israeli govt cedes to settlers or just withdraws from.   The nascent state in Judea can be a proxy for the state of Israel or simply not engage with it.   But there is no reason the IDF has to "declare war" and start treating settlers like they are hamas!   Where do you get that idea from?     The settlements are a 'headache' which the state of Israel does not want. Who can't see that by now?     If settlers make facts on the ground and start demonstrating independence and self-sufficiency, it will be the greatest gift the Israeli regime could ask for.    And then when Jewish reprisals finally start to occur on the Arabs, the Israeli govt can wash its hands of it and say we have nothing to do with the people there.

The IDF is there because of settlers; it is not there because the Israeli govt thinks we the Jewish people belong in the land of Abraham Isaac and Jacob and therefore the Israeli govt asserts its rights to the territory.   lol, the Israeli govt thinks that land is arab land!  

What makes you think that the current Israeli government will allow the Settlers to break away?

The current Israeli government does not want the Settlers to exist, and want to establish a so-called Palestinian state on the lands that Settlers live in.

[edu]

I found out from my friend the direct source, that the Hagana leadership was threatened with violence by Lehi/Lechi if Hagana dared to try to backstab the Lehi/Lechi during the so called "Saison or hunting season". A threat which worked and convinced the Hagana to go after an easier target, the Irgun, which espoused an ideology, of suffering for the sake of Jewish unity.
The source is Elnakam by Ezra Yachin.
Ezra Yachin was a member of the Lehi/Lechi who wrote about his own experiences in the movement and writes to some extent about the history of the movement in general.

[Dr. Dan]

What makes you think that the current Israeli government will allow the Settlers to break away?

The current Israeli government does not want the Settlers to exist, and want to establish a so-called Palestinian state on the lands that Settlers live in.

Actually I personally know someone who was an adviser to Smolmert.  You are right in what you say.  The Israeli establishment feel that the settlers are the thorn in the side for a "peace treaty".  At this point, the government feels that if they leave the settlers alone and let them protect themselves, they think they will be massacred, Gd forbid.  Therefore, their goal is to remove the settlers and not give them a separate state.  If only they allowed it, the Israeli government would be proven wrong.

[syyuge]

I support Greater Israel, whatever it means to whomsoever concerned or not so concerned.

[Dr. Dan]

I support Greater Israel, whatever it means to whomsoever concerned or not so concerned.

But sometimes you have to take one step back before you make one step forward.  This could mean if not changing the Israeli government, creating an ideal Jewish state from Judea and Samaria.

[syyuge]

I support Greater Israel, whatever it means to whomsoever concerned or not so concerned.

But sometimes you have to take one step back before you make one step forward.  This could mean if not changing the Israeli government, creating an ideal Jewish state from Judea and Samaria.

Thanx! I understand that this scenario is really complex.

[Debbie Shafer]

i agree with the summation on the Torah and uniting People.   Yes, Israel should be growing not getting smaller..Keep praying for the Lord's will to be clear!  Amen