"Herzel and Zionism"

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I would like your thoughts and comments about this video (for those who have seen it before, or will have seen it)

[Meerkat]

Well, early Herzel was definitely a putz. When he finally figured it out that the only solution is a Jewish State, thats when his opinions became a little more tolerable. I don't mind incorporating some of European culture, as long as we only incorporate the good parts, theres definitely some aspects that are horrible. What I'm worried about is this movie legitimizing the [censored] of Nazirei Karta, because it draws a distinction between Judaism and Zionism. Thankfully, for most of Israel, Zionism and Judaism (well, at least Jewish Identity) go hand in hand, in June '67 it became very clear that HaShem wants to further Zionism. The end result of Herzel's Zionism has been a mixed bag. We now have a Jewish State, that is very positive. The cultural mix within Israel is nothing too bad, It has in it Europe while at the same time not having Europe. The government we got is an abomination, it still clings to the "erase Jewish identity" part, it has Europe in it and wants even more Europe in it.

There's no doubt about it, the original Zionists, including Jabotinsky, were Judenrat scum.  I have not finished the whole video but I will watch the rest of it tomorrow.

Jabotinsky wasn't judenrat, he was anti-assimilation, wanting all the Jews to leave the Galut. He did want to alter the Jewish identity, but it was not that negative.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

There's no doubt about it, the original Zionists, including Jabotinsky, were Judenrat scum.  I have not finished the whole video but I will watch the rest of it tomorrow.

 I agree with probably most of the video (watched till about 40 minutes- but saw this a long time ago before), but with Jabotinsky I do not understand especially concidering the fact that Rav Kahane I believe wrote and praised him. Maybe the Rav didn't know, or maybe those were some isolated things said etc.

 Also Rav Kahane did speak about some of these "leaders" if you will and the atrocities they committed (and some still commit) till this day agains't the nation of Israel and the Torah of Israel.

[Lisa]

I watched the whole video. 

This rabbi echoes everything Chaim has been saying all these years, either on the JTF.org website, or on the forum, or on past Ask JTF shows.  In fact, Chaim once said that Ben Gurion should have never been born. 

After watching this whole video, I completely agree. 

But I'm just curious about something.  And maybe those of you who are more familiar with Herzl than I am can explain this to me.  If Herzl was so enamored of Christianity, why didn't he just put his money where his mouth was and convert? 

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

But I'm just curious about something.  And maybe those of you who are more familiar with Herzl than I am can explain this to me.  If Herzl was so enamored of Christianity, why didn't he just put his money where his mouth was and convert?

 3 possibilities.
 1) He did Teshuva. (Unlikly since he didn't even circumcize his own son, something almost unheard of at his time)
2) Had no interest in Chritianity in the first place but saw it as a way to escape anti-semitism. Soo with making the Jews convert they would stop persecuting the Jews (in his mind)
3) (or 2B) with the drefus affair and other things he realized that converting to christianity will not help at all. The Jew-haters will still hate the Jews. Which is something true as we saw in Nazi Germany that those descendends of Jews who already were "converts" to chrtianity to the 6th generation we persecuted and killed as well.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

By the way I don't concider Herzel to be the founder of Zionism. Zionism, or the settlement of the land of Israel has 2 beginnings. 1- the Torah. 2- the modern day movements were 2 parts. The first- their were always Jews streaming to be at and some were in the land of Israel throughtout these 2,000 years. AND as a movement their were the "Lovers of Zion" movement of all Religious Jews even before Herzl.

[Lisa]

Also, I did a search on Yitzhak Gruenbaum that scum, and here's what he once said:

"One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Europe"

[Lisa]

Well, early Herzel was definitely a putz. When he finally figured it out that the only solution is a Jewish State, thats when his opinions became a little more tolerable. I don't mind incorporating some of European culture, as long as we only incorporate the good parts, theres definitely some aspects that are horrible. What I'm worried about is this movie legitimizing the <censored> of Nazirei Karta, because it draws a distinction between Judaism and Zionism. Thankfully, for most of Israel, Zionism and Judaism (well, at least Jewish Identity) go hand in hand, in June '67 it became very clear that HaShem wants to further Zionism. The end result of Herzel's Zionism has been a mixed bag. We now have a Jewish State, that is very positive. The cultural mix within Israel is nothing too bad, It has in it Europe while at the same time not having Europe. The government we got is an abomination, it still clings to the "erase Jewish identity" part, it has Europe in it and wants even more Europe in it.
 Jabotinsky wasn't judenrat, he was anti-assimilation, wanting all the Jews to leave the Galut. He did want to alter the Jewish identity, but it was not that negative.

Meerkat, I don't think this video is legitimizing the NK.  It's more like the rabbi who made this video is against secular Zionism.   

[Meerkat]

3 possibilities.
1) He did Teshuva. (Unlikly since he didn't even circumcize his own son, something almost unheard of at his time)

Partially, by any standards. he finally figured out that the only way to stop antisemitism is by in-gathering the exiles. Yes, he did want a very different Jewish identity, but at least he wanted it to exist and exist in Israel.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Partially, by any standards. he finally figured out that the only way to stop antisemitism is by in-gathering the exiles. Yes, he did want a very different Jewish identity, but at least he wanted it to exist and exist in Israel.

 What type of Jewish identity? The type that fight agains't its very laws (The Torah) and its people?

 By the way look at this koffer Bourge at 56:00/ And this guy has a KIPPA at the same time him saying those words !

[Meerkat]

What type of Jewish identity? The type that fight agains't its very laws (The Torah) and its people?

I do have a problem with abusive anti-religious sentiment, as I don't want a war among brothers, but I do want some secularization, given that I'm secular.

By the way look at this koffer Bourge at 56:00/ And this guy has a KIPPA at the same time him saying those words !

that guy's from Meretz, right? don't they want "medinat kol ezracheiha", i.e. palestine? they are not Zionists by any stretch of the imagination.

Meerkat, I don't think this video is legitimizing the NK.  It's more like the rabbi who made this video is against secular Zionism.   

I have seen NK and NK supporters use dirt on early zionists to justify their crap, even if it was not the intent of this movie (which it probably wasn't).

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I do have a problem with abusive anti-religious sentiment, as I don't want a war among brothers, but I do want some secularization, given that I'm secular.
 that guy's from Meretz, right? don't they want "medinat kol ezracheiha", i.e. palestine? they are not Zionists by any stretch of the imagination.

 What do you mean by secularization? And you say you want some secularization, do you not realise that their is wayyy to much of that in Israel now? How much more secularization can their be?
 
 -That guy is not from Meretz he is from the "one Israel party", Yossi Sarid- Yimah Shemo is from Meretz.

[Meerkat]

What do you mean by secularization? And you say you want some secularization, do you not realise that their is wayyy to much of that in Israel now? How much more secularization can their be?
.....

Secular enough to let people figure out for themselves where on the religious spectrum they want to be. Most decisions are to be done on the personal level, maybe municipal. Only the stuff that can logically only be solved by the central Jewish government should be decided on the national level (who is a Jew, that kind of stuff).

I also want equality of opportunity and equality of burden. That is, Haredim need to work and defend the country like the rest of us (we are seeing them shift to that direction).

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Secular enough to let people figure out for themselves where on the religious spectrum they want to be. Most decisions are to be done on the personal level, maybe municipal. Only the stuff that can logically only be solved by the central Jewish government should be decided on the national level (who is a Jew, that kind of stuff).

I also want equality of opportunity and equality of burden. That is, Haredim need to work and defend the country like the rest of us (we are seeing them shift to that direction).

 -The "powers that be" in many ways through different avenues don't say what you are proposing (of choosing religious observance level on a personal level), their is secular coercion.
- Also even your democratic rights are being trampled. The video rightly points out how the leftists take control of the media and other institutions especially the court and how the court is trying to secure its power over the state where even the knesset would become almost obsolete only making suggestions, but real power with the court (which is controlled by them, is not "democratic" as they always try to force their decisions on everyone with the claim of "democracy" which of course anyway is subverviant to the real laws of Israel and the Jewish nation- the TORAH.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I really like this mashal he brings in this video

from  57:50 for a few minutes.
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,61036.msg542925.html#msg542925

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I don't believe for one second that jabotinsky hated chassidim, even if he did make some mistakes in his life or say some regrettable things.     I think when he said what he did about peyot he was speaking conceptually and he didn't hold to that "requirement" as time went on.   

Would Rabbi Kahane's father be friends with such a man if it were true about him?   And would Rabbi Kahane praise him?

I think that the makers of this video put it together in the worst possible way, almost like propaganda.  It's a very simplistic and misleading video, IMO.   And it's of course made by people who are "antizionist" so clearly there is an agenda.   Is SOME of what's in the video true?  Sure.

Full disclosure:  I saw this video a while back, and I watched the whole thing.

[Lisa]

I don't believe for one second that jabotinsky hated chassidim, even if he did make some mistakes in his life or say some regrettable things.     I think when he said what he did about peyot he was speaking conceptually and he didn't hold to that "requirement" as time went on.   

Would Rabbi Kahane's father be friends with such a man if it were true about him?   And would Rabbi Kahane praise him?

I think that the makers of this video put it together in the worst possible way, almost like propaganda.  It's a very simplistic and misleading video, IMO.   And it's of course made by people who are "antizionist" so clearly there is an agenda.   Is SOME of what's in the video true?  Sure.

Full disclosure:  I saw this video a while back, and I watched the whole thing.

So the rabbi whose name is on this video is anti-Zionist? 

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

So the rabbi whose name is on this video is anti-Zionist?

 Rav Amnon Yitzhak did not make the video, although it appears on his website. I also know that he speaks and is friends with Rav Yaakov Yosef who is definitly "one of us".

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I really like this mashal he brings in this video

from  57:50 for a few minutes.
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,61036.msg542925.html#msg542925

 Here as well. More slower and also very good (short) from 2:30 minutes he brings that example of te watermellon and also how the leftists have been sucking the country dry yett blaming the religios of being "parisites". (I slightly disagree with him though, because I believe in total freedom from the state, but definitly to end all the socialist programs of the leftists)

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Rav Amnon Yitzhak did not make the video, although it appears on his website. I also know that he speaks and is friends with Rav Yaakov Yosef who is definitly "one of us".

It was my understanding that Rabbi Amnon Yitzak made the video.  I could be wrong.

He definitely has a motive for having it on his website, and he is clearly an antizionist, whether he is friends with Rav Yosef or not.     Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Zelhar]

There's no doubt about it, the original Zionists, including Jabotinsky, were Judenrat scum.  I have not finished the whole video but I will watch the rest of it tomorrow.

I am sorry to hear your very low opinion about Jabotinsky. He was no traitor !

[Zelhar]

It was my understanding that Rabbi Amnon Yitzak made the video.  I could be wrong.

He definitely has a motive for having it on his website, and he is clearly an antizionist, whether he is friends with Rav Yosef or not.     Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes it was made by rabbi Amnon Yitzhak and he is anti-zionist but he is also against the piecemeal annihilation process and as far as I know he supports settlers. I don't agree with his political view but he is not a traitor like most parties are.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Yes it was made by rabbi Amnon Yitzhak and he is anti-zionist but he is also against the piecemeal annihilation process and as far as I know he supports settlers. I don't agree with his political view but he is not a traitor like most parties are.

 What makes one a zionist or anti-zionist? Look you said he supports the settlers, is agains't the piece process and doesn't support the regime (Forgot to mention- is against the media and the hellinists and doesn't hold back from describing their crimes) On the other hand you have people who scream that they are zionists who do the exact opposite of the above. Soo what exactly makes one a zionist, and if that why is he not one? I think their are issues with terms here more than anything.
 One thing I would have to disagree with him is on having a Medina Halacha. He says not until Moshiah, I say and believe the sooner the better when its properly made.

[Zelhar]

What makes one a zionist or anti-zionist? Look you said he supports the settlers, is agains't the piece process and doesn't support the regime (Forgot to mention- is against the media and the hellinists and doesn't hold back from describing their crimes) On the other hand you have people who scream that they are zionists who do the exact opposite of the above. Soo what exactly makes one a zionist, and if that why is he not one? I think their are issues with terms here more than anything.
 One thing I would have to disagree with him is on having a Medina Halacha. He says not until Moshiah, I say and believe the sooner the better when its properly made.

His support of settlers doesn't go beyond rhetoric. The bottom line is that he is charedi and he you know with charedi mentality we can't go far.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

His support of settlers doesn't go beyond rhetoric. The bottom line is that he is charedi and he you know with charedi mentality we can't go far.

 That's the divide and concor that the media has been making. I disagree with some of the things he is saying, BUT what is better or worse- a Haredi that is against the arabs, pience-process, the media and the government or a "Dati-Leumi" Rabbi (and we know a few of those) who works together with the government when they want to expell Jews from their settlements?
 The Rambam says to listen to the truth no matter who says it. Even a goy. How much more soo a Rabbi? We have to accept the truth and reject the falsehood. I have been listening these couple of days to what he's says and I have to say I almost fully agree with him. The media, leftist, etc. etc. have been brainwashing and inciting the public against itself.