Rav Amnon Yitzhak party platform

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

  Also addressing those who said earlier about taking care of the poor. We have the concept of Tzeddakah and our (Jewish) obligation to support and help our Brethren. It is not even simply charity, it is based on Tzedek (Justice). It was even enforced when we had a Jewish government and when we will have a Jewish government again.
 Not only that, every 7 years the loans were annulled (when we had Shmittah) then came a time of Hillel and Prosbol (complex concept not for now). Soo if one owned $ to another, once that 7th year came the loans were taken away. No interest could EVER be taken nor given. The poor had and have rights. This is found in the Tannach (Torah Prophets Writings) and in the teachings of the sages. On the other hand their is also property rights as well and they are to respected.
 Every 7 years the land was left alone. No one had rights to the land and anyone who wished was allowed to come and eat from it. Rambam explains Shmitta being for the benefit of the poor. Also had to do with Emuna (faith) in G-D and that it is G-D who gives a person wealth (again this is a very broad a long topic not a simple answer and depends upon the individual).
  Their is chastisement over and over again for taking care of the poor, the widow's, orphans, converts (strangers who come to the land and don't have relatives), the Leviim and the Kohanim (who were not given their own land but had to take care of the spiritual needs of the nation) etc.

Tag, there is a difference between having a safety net for all Jews and a specific subgroup or constituency that demands handouts. From all that I see and have learned, Shas and its constituents behave much like the American negroes that are constantly demanding taxpayer and corporate welfare in the United States/West. But race is really irrelevant. There are trailer-trash whites and Christians that also behave like this and I don't want to give them one red cent either. Nobody should be forced to. I don't care what religion or social group someone belongs to, they should work for a living unless there is an absolutely solid reason why they cannot or should not. This is Chaim's position, not just mine. If Shas insists on being a charity movement for poor Sfaradim, then it should set itself up as a 501 (c)3 nonprofit (or whatever the equivalent is in Israel), drop the hell out of politics, and function as an actual charity for the poor making mass appeals to the public for donations. That is the way that any aid or alms should operate in a democratic society. Shas' shakedowns stink, but their politics are even worse. I do think that Israel would be better off if Shas ceased to exist, and I do wish the voters of Israel would stand up to their racket one of these days.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Thank you Rubystars and KWRBT.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I don't know anything about Rabbi Amnon Yitzhak, besides that I don't trust anyone in Israel besides Hayamin, but if he is a credible rival to Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, I will support him any day just for that reason alone.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

בס''ד

Tag, I know you are a good Jew with good intentions. But telling our non-Jewish members to mind their own business is not helpful, in my view. Our non-Jewish members sincerely support Israel and they have every right to express their opinion. You can disagree with them if you wish, but please respect their right to speak.

When our non-Jewish members criticize appeasing Jewish politicians, this is actually good. When non-Jews who live thousands of miles away from Israel are more pro-Israel than Jews who actually live there, that is something that can potentially put the wimpy Jews to shame and possibly wake some of them up.

Also, what happens in Israel does not only affect Jews. It affects the whole world. Every Jewish surrender is a disaster for America and the West. Non-Jews who read the Bible know how G-d's actions toward the entire world are deeply affected by events in Israel. To expect non-Jews to be silent or apathetic about things that very much impact on their future is unfair.

We do want to avoid excessive attacks or cursing but I didn't see any of that from our non-Jewish members in this thread. The views they expressed are very legitimate and I happen to agree with them.

As far as HaRav Amnon Yitzchak and his party, Koah LeHashpiah, while I disagree with many of his positions, this Rabbi is courageous and sincere. I think this Rabbi's party is better than all of the others. Moreover, he takes votes away from the evil Shas party (yes, Shas is evil, they brought Arafat and 80,000 PLO-Fatah terrorists to Israel while expelling me).

So I thank you, Tag, for bringing this subject up.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Thank you Chaim.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Sorry Chaim I must disagree with you here. Even people with good intentions do not know and understand the complexities of these issues here.

   For example this case of Tzedakkah. What "Just say" just said goes against our morals and our societal mentality and ways. He doesn't understand for example that our concept of Tzedakah is different from the experience of his concept of "charity" these are different things. He sees it from his worldview and his experience as an American (white or other) and having a society and people he doesn't care about (blacks). We do not view Tzedakah especially when dealing with our fellow Jews as something wrong or bad, in fact the opposite. We are to be compassionate and loving to our people.
   Even this whole issue was raised by Rav Kahane ZTL HYD himself where he brings these sources and concepts in his Sefer OR Harayon. I think I brought this up some time ago as well. Our concept of Tzedakah is not like the gentile concept of charity. Their are many examples brought and when dealing with these issues (and something the Sanhedrin and Jewish society and courts will deal with) the dealings should be with the Torah and Jewish law and its take on these things and not the different cultures be they the American right wing concept of (mine is mine and yours is yours) or the left-wing concepts of (yours is mine and mine is mine) but the Torah concepts and ways of our sages and Prophets.
 
Say no-
"That is the way that any aid or alms should operate in a democratic society"

- That is the thing that might be your ideal society and I am fine with it, but our society is different and stands for a whole different culture and civilization. You just would not understand.

 Chaim: "Our non-Jewish members sincerely support Israel and they have every right to express their opinion."
  - We keep the discussions civil and we refrain from mentioning their religion don't we out of respect as well. I think it would be best for them not to be involved in these issues when then involve Halahic concepts, discussions and disagreements (and these disagreements absolutely do exist). We differ with some people for sure but at least hearing from Rav Kahane their is still respect for the people and groups who do not hold by the positions of Rav Kahane. This was said by Rav Kahane himself when referring to Rav Schach. He even said to someone who held by Rav Schach (for example) that if he is his Rabbi then he should go by him and that was it. I will never accept (and that is the plain truth) that Rav Kahane would allow someone to bash Rav Schach as a person without him (Rav Kahane) standing up for him and shutting the other person up. Be he someone of the covenant or especially an uncircumcised. Also it reflects very badly when inflammatory words are being said over and over again and the whole Jewish people as a whole are made to look as if we are some bloodsuckers who sell out for some $ (sounds very familiar to what Jews have been accused of for hundreds of years, and of the image of the "Judas" that existed and exists within the psych of many from the nations).
 In reality "And who is like Thy people, like Israel, a nation one in the earth"   וּמִי כְעַמְּךָ כְּיִשְׂרָאֵל, גּוֹי אֶחָד בָּאָרֶץ

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

 Rav Benyamin Kahane "Yeshiva and Gov. funding"

 http://rabbikahane.wordpress.com/2010/09/24/yeshivas-and-government-funding/

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Rav Amnon Yitzhak is an "anti-zionist" in the respects of not respected nor recognizing the authority of the secular. His world view (right or wrong) is that those who cause someone to sin are worse then those who come and murder them. He views those he calls the "zionists" (basically meaning the secular kibbutzim and those who ran the state in earlier times especially(which again is a term that can be interpreted in many different ways and their are those in Hayamin who say they are not or anti-zionists as well) as worse then perhaps the nazis because the nazis killed the body yett the soul lives on and they killed the soul by making Jews not religious (that is his world view)
 He definitely does not have any love for the Arabs. I heard him before and even recently he said how Israel should not listen nor care about America and take care of the Arab problem in Azza without sending any troops (meaning to bomb them only without any risk to soldiers).

No, you are wrong.   You are engaging in what is called wishful thinking.  Because you want this to be true.  But it isn't.

Rabbi Amnon Yitzhak is an antizionist in the full sense of the term.  He is ideologically opposed to the creation of the Jewish state in history.    That was the point of the videos he made against zionism.    And he is now against the settlers in Judea and Samaria.   Antizionist through and through.   

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

בס''ד

Tag, are you aware of the fact that Shas encourages huge numbers of young Sephardim not to work but to live on government handouts? Are you aware of the fact that six leading Shas members went to prison for corruption, bribery and kickbacks? Are you aware of the fact that the real leader of Shas, Aryeh Deri, is a left-wing traitor who supported the criminal Oslo accords and who supports Israeli national suicide? Are you aware of the fact that Shas is currently engaged in a massive smear campaign against HaRav Amnon Yitzchak?

The Torah concept of charity is not socialism. The Torah encourages hard work and self-sufficiency (see Pirkei Avot and the Rambam). Giving huge new taxing and budget powers to the Erev Rav traitors who run Israel is certainly not the Torah way. Making religious Jews slavishly dependent on handouts from the most evil self-hating Jewish traitors who want Israel to commit national suicide is the worst policy possible.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

No, you are wrong.   You are engaging in what is called wishful thinking.  Because you want this to be true.  But it isn't.

Rabbi Amnon Yitzhak is an antizionist in the full sense of the term.  He is ideologically opposed to the creation of the Jewish state in history.    That was the point of the videos he made against zionism.    And he is now against the settlers in Judea and Samaria.   Antizionist through and through.

 
 How do you know what you said was and is true? He does say that the land is his (the Jewish people) but that state is not his. He says that the Arabs do not have rights to the land either. He personally will not vote either. Also their is a big history of the State and that grudge still very much exists. (many examples unfortunately including Yeminite babies kidnapped, secular indoctrination, not allowed those escaping Europe during the Nazis to enter and sending them back and secularism in general).
 Their are Kahanists at least by Chaims words that say basically the same things. Including Noam Federman (at least from what I remember of Chaims words). their definitely are those who do not vote and will never vote because simply do not recognize the system.

 Their are those (were talking only about the religious) on the opposite spectrum who basically go with the state and see themselves as the "fifth wheel". They will follow orders and leave their homes when expelled because of "state rules".
 Rav Kahane was certainly unique because he recognized both facts. 1) that their were severe problems with those who made the state and that at least in his time to work within the state to change it to a fully Jewish country. That was his philosophy and that the State even with all of its problems still was a  Kiddush Hashem since "not for your sake ooh Israel, but for my name" (says G-D).

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Moreover, he takes votes away from the evil Shas party (yes, Shas is evil, they brought Arafat and 80,000 PLO-Fatah terrorists to Israel while expelling me).

So I thank you, Tag, for bringing this subject up.

Ok, I agree it's great when Shas loses votes.   Fine.   But this...

בס''ד
As far as HaRav Amnon Yitzchak and his party, Koah LeHashpiah, while I disagree with many of his positions, this Rabbi is courageous and sincere. I think this Rabbi's party is better than all of the others.   

How can you say this about an antizionist ?   He is a Yemenite rabbi who chose to align himself with haredi politics against the settlers and against Jewish nationalism.   How can his party be the best?

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

No, you are wrong.   You are engaging in what is called wishful thinking.  Because you want this to be true.  But it isn't.

Rabbi Amnon Yitzhak is an antizionist in the full sense of the term.  He is ideologically opposed to the creation of the Jewish state in history.    That was the point of the videos he made against zionism.    And he is now against the settlers in Judea and Samaria.   Antizionist through and through.

בס''ד

Actually, Tag is right on this point. HaRav Yitzchak is not against a Jewish state. He is against the secular socialist "Zionists". HaRav Yitzchak even called himself a real Zionist in an interview on Channel 2.

HaRav Yitzchak is not against the Jewish settlers although his position is too weak from our Kahanist point of view. But he is the only leader saying there is no "Palestinian" people. He is actually to the right of all the other pathetic parties on this vital issue including the phony "Kahanist" party of Ben Ari and Marzel. I have already done three Hebrew videos on this where we will show how the phony "Kahanist" party advocates allowing millions of Arab Nazis to continue living in the land of Israel - we will be releasing the videos this week, G-d willing.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

  Chaim I agree with you that people should be more self reliant and self sufficient. And yes hard work is praised and praiseworthy. Am I am not a socialist. But at the same time I am not a Capitalist as well. I am a Torahist (I know I made that up) but generally I see a more balanced approach to these issues. And the issues being solved within the Torah world instead of "in the streets" soo to speak.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

 How do you know what you said was and is true? He does say that the land is his (the Jewish people) but that state is not his. He says that the Arabs do not have rights to the land either. He personally will not vote either. Also their is a big history of the State and that grudge still very much exists. (many examples unfortunately including Yeminite babies kidnapped, secular indoctrination, not allowed those escaping Europe during the Nazis to enter and sending them back and secularism in general).
 Their are Kahanists at least by Chaims words that say basically the same things. Including Noam Federman (at least from what I remember of Chaims words). their definitely are those who do not vote and will never vote because simply do not recognize the system.   

History is history and facts are facts, but this man still chose to align himself with the Satmar philosophy IN PRINCIPLE that a Jewish state should not exist in world history.   The haredi world largely adopted this approach as well, but the haredi masses do not really accept it.   The leadership endorses this approach and only puts a disclaimer that for practicality's sake they will deal with the state although it should not exist and exists in sin.   

Rabbi Kahane was the one explaining aspects of this history (the crimes of the state against Jews) when no one else of "repute" would dare talk about it openly and honestly, and yet, he never once adopted the Satmar view.   How do you not see the difference?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

  Wait what are you asking, I am not sure?

   I never said I agree with them.
 
 I don't think all the Haredim adopted the "Satmar approach". I talked with some they said in the definitive that they do not. And some share some aspects and others other aspects, but definitely not all or even most. I don't know.

   We basically take the approach of the Rambam to the Geula process. They probably go more with the Raavad and the concept of Moshiah and the redemption process (it being with open miracles etc. like the time of the redeption from Egypt, this weeks Parsha) Soo the modern state is/was a shocker to many. Some believe that since it was done by Reshaim it is bound to be destroyed because what the wicked make will not last.
 Others relate to the state differently with many variations in between.
 
 Basically I think we should relate to the state the way the Prophets (for example Eliyahu Hanavi) related to the King at the time. When he did bad he went against him and those policies, when he did good he honored the King and even ran in front of his chariots (as a show of great respect).

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Rabbi Kahane was the one explaining aspects of this history (the crimes of the state against Jews) when no one else of "repute" would dare talk about it openly and honestly, and yet, he never once adopted the Satmar view.   How do you not see the difference?

 At times he did. See his book "Israel: Revolution or Referendum". At times he did say it in this book. (Not that it should happen).

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Tag, I've tried to be respectful and patient with you but this is starting to get absurd.

Sorry Chaim I must disagree with you here. Even people with good intentions do not know and understand the complexities of these issues here.

Tag, many posts ago I said that we are going to just have to agree to disagree. You are the one who keeps continuing this.

For example this case of Tzedakkah. What "Just say" just said goes against our morals and our societal mentality and ways. He doesn't understand for example that our concept of Tzedakah is different from the experience of his concept of "charity" these are different things.

I don't morally think it is right for someone's wealth to be taken from them and be redistributed by the state or a petty special-interest group against their will. You keep saying that the Israeli media is demonizing Shas on this issue. I have no idea what the Israeli media says or not but if this is indeed true, they are saying this because they know that many Israelis dislike Shas and what it is doing and it is trying to tap into that sentiment.

He sees it from his worldview and his experience as an American (white or other) and having a society and people he doesn't care about (blacks).

I clarified that it's not really about race; I merely was stating that Shas behaves like Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson. I don't want to give handouts to whites, Hispanics, Christians, Jews, or anybody.

We do not view Tzedakah especially when dealing with our fellow Jews as something wrong or bad, in fact the opposite. We are to be compassionate and loving to our people.

So you are saying that the income of Israelis should be forcibly redistributed to shakedown artists whether they consent or not? That is fascism.

Even this whole issue was raised by Rav Kahane ZTL HYD himself where he brings these sources and concepts in his Sefer OR Harayon. I think I brought this up some time ago as well. Our concept of Tzedakah is not like the gentile concept of charity.

For many years Chaim has been saying that the Israeli welfare state must be reformed, and that only genuine full-time Torah students should receive exemptions from the military and a state stipend. I believe he knows what he is talking about.

Their are many examples brought and when dealing with these issues (and something the Sanhedrin and Jewish society and courts will deal with) the dealings should be with the Torah and Jewish law and its take on these things and not the different cultures be they the American right wing concept of (mine is mine and yours is yours) or the left-wing concepts of (yours is mine and mine is mine) but the Torah concepts and ways of our sages and Prophets.

Obviously Chaim disagrees with you, and I think that he knows as much Torah/halacha as you do, if not more.
 

- That is the thing that might be your ideal society and I am fine with it, but our society is different and stands for a whole different culture and civilization. You just would not understand.

I never proclaimed to be an expert on Jewish society in any way. I just trust Chaim's knowledge and judgment and I think he knows what he is talking about.

- We keep the discussions civil and we refrain from mentioning their religion don't we out of respect as well. I think it would be best for them not to be involved in these issues when then involve Halahic concepts, discussions and disagreements (and these disagreements absolutely do exist).

If you have some legitimate criticism of something going on in Christian church politics, please share it. Maybe you have some good feedback for us.

We differ with some people for sure but at least hearing from Rav Kahane their is still respect for the people and groups who do not hold by the positions of Rav Kahane.

Please show me where HaRav said that we must all support and respect Shas and all that it does.

This was said by Rav Kahane himself when referring to Rav Schach. He even said to someone who held by Rav Schach (for example) that if he is his Rabbi then he should go by him and that was it. I will never accept (and that is the plain truth) that Rav Kahane would allow someone to bash Rav Schach as a person without him (Rav Kahane) standing up for him and shutting the other person up. Be he someone of the covenant or especially an uncircumcised.

I don't know who Rabbi Schach is.

Also it reflects very badly when inflammatory words are being said over and over again and the whole Jewish people as a whole are made to look as if we are some bloodsuckers who sell out for some $ (sounds very familiar to what Jews have been accused of for hundreds of years, and of the image of the "Judas" that existed and exists within the psych of many from the nations).

Ex-freaking scuse me??? 

I am an anti-Semite because I said what all Israelis know (that Shas is a shakedown and extortion party) and Naftali Bennett is a greedy oligarch who has never used his millions for anything righteous?

You owe me an apology.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

בס''ד

Tag, are you aware of the fact that Shas encourages huge numbers of young Sephardim not to work but to live on government handouts? Are you aware of the fact that six leading Shas members went to prison for corruption, bribery and kickbacks? Are you aware of the fact that the real leader of Shas, Aryeh Deri, is a left-wing traitor who supported the criminal Oslo accords and who supports Israeli national suicide? Are you aware of the fact that Shas is currently engaged in a massive smear campaign against HaRav Amnon Yitzchak?

The Torah concept of charity is not socialism. The Torah encourages hard work and self-sufficiency (see Pirkei Avot and the Rambam). Giving huge new taxing and budget powers to the Erev Rav traitors who run Israel is certainly not the Torah way. Making religious Jews slavishly dependent on handouts from the most evil self-hating Jewish traitors who want Israel to commit national suicide is the worst policy possible.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

  Wait what are you asking, I am not sure?

   I never said I agree with them.
 
 I don't think all the Haredim adopted the "Satmar approach". I talked with some they said in the definitive that they do not. 

You talked with the Aguda?  I'm talking about the haredi leadership.   They did accept the Satmar approach.  They were unwilling to fight the hassidim.  And they ignored other voices such as Rav Kamenetsky who was decidedly NOT antizionist or against jewish nationalism.   In fact he was proud and happy about the founding of the Jewish state.  As were all the sane Jews.   The Aguda squashed that natural feeling and excised it from the Jewish people as best as they could.

   We basically take the approach of the Rambam to the Geula process. They probably go more with the Raavad and the concept of Moshiah and the redemption process (it being with open miracles etc. like the time of the redeption from Egypt, this weeks Parsha) Soo the modern state is/was a shocker to many. Some believe that since it was done by Reshaim it is bound to be destroyed because what the wicked make will not last.
 Others relate to the state differently with many variations in between. 

I have no idea what you're talking about except that you are trying to rationalize the haredi rejection of Jewish nationalism.   Nothing makes that right or acceptable.
 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

At times he did. See his book "Israel: Revolution or Referendum". At times he did say it in this book. (Not that it should happen).

Revolution and Referendum are two contrary ideas, neither of which fit with Satmar ideology.   Try again.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

 Your last (before the clapping) shows why you should not be involved in these issues. You have your society we have ours.

 "So you are saying that the income of Israelis should be forcibly redistributed"

 YES in the proper way. Again this is a complex issue. You want your society to be only based on free market and people spending $ a certain way and giving to charity when they want to, that is fine for your society. Our society is different. And I can quote Rav Kahane word for word on this where he says this specifically.

 About your churches, like I already told you I do not follow your ideology and that religion. I would not comment if someone is a good pastor or not because I do not recognize or follow the books of the "nt".

 About the sources from Rav Kahane, those who have sefer Or Harayon (In English) see chapter "Humlity, Submission and Lowliness" page 62,
 see page 585 on "Capitalism".
 p. 214 on Charity and how it is defined as obligation and not how the nations define it (as if the wealth belongs to them and not how we define it that G-D owns everything and he apportions how He sees fit and tells one how to distribute it) Also how the great sages FORCED those who did not give enough to give to the poor.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I have no idea what you're talking about except that you are trying to rationalize the haredi rejection of Jewish nationalism.   Nothing makes that right or acceptable.

 Another Shiur by Rav Bar-Chaim on this, Bli Neder remind me I will send you this one and the earlier one I told you, but you need to remind me and I will find it and send it to you.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I would like someone to show me one positive thing R Amnon Yitzhak ever said about settlers.

The problem with haredi political leaders is that they view themselves as rivals of and in conflict with "the mizrahim."   The entire program of religious nationalism is viewed as a competing force which they must constantly malign, contradict, and mock in order to convince their own masses that only their leadership is kadosh, and everyone else is imitation Jewry.   Because "God forbid" that haredi Jews start feeling nationalistic or divert their attention to other points of view in the religious world - that will erode the power structure already in place.  They won't allow that so they portray religious zionism as treife.   It happens in America too.    Dati Leumi is considered "not frum" by most of the mainstream haredim here.   
What I see is that Rabbi Amnon Yitzhak has aligned himself with this haredi leadership and haredi approach.   He sympathizes with the views of Rav Shach which are still propagated today by antizionist rabbis - "Rav Shach said not to settle out there (beyond the green line) and ha, ha! we haredi rabbis were always right and that is why you are now being evicted - because you never should have gone there"    Why do I say people propagate this?  Because a rabbi in Israel told me this.

Part of the haredi program to negate the "mizrahim" is to accept in part the secularist, israeli media and establishment demonizing of settlers.   I have also been told by haredi rabbis that the settlers are extremists and we could have peace with the arabs if not for them.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

KWRBT I sent you the shiurim, see the different approaches that existed and exist in the Jewish world.
 And yes we are in a sad state of affairs. Their are many people and groups attacking other ideologies. Haredim vs. Mizrachim, Mizrachim vs. Kahanistim, Modern-Orthodox vs. Ultra-Orthodox and all vice versa etc. We (in the Jewish world) will not get anywhere by the continuation of Jew-bashing. Why not defeat them all with what is actually important for us all? THE SOURCES. Stick to the sources and you will get them to your side once you explain them properly, if these antagonisms continue we are all heading towards destruction (G-D forbid).

 For example how are the Haredim to reach to the continuation of Haredi bashing? Are they to then say, heyy I will change since they are all against me, or are they to then become even more insular and threatened and then even more antagonistic towards you and with whom you stand with.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

KWRBT I sent you the shiurim, see the different approaches that existed and exist in the Jewish world.

I will watch the shiurim but first I'm going to say that these "approaches" are nothing but a farce.   There's nothing left to argue about.  The state already exists whether you like it or not.  Whether you thought in theory it should never come about or it should... It does now!   The "battle" is over and has been lost by those who were against it.   The fact that they still try to fight over this just shows how irrelevant and blind they are.  Rabbi Wein speaks about this all the time and says how backwards and useless it is to cling to these old arguments and rehash our dysfunctional past during the current time with all its problems and challenges.   It's like trying to turn back time and "uninvent" the computer.  Or uninvent the automobile.       A philosophy which negates our national life, while our national life is currently in existence, is a danger to society and a boon to our enemies.  The real life manifestation of the bankruptcy of these so-called "approaches" has already been exposed and laid bare.   They sacrificed the Jewish people to the Oslo Moloch!   There can't be anymore tolerance of this treason.   Not now in this era.  Sorry.