Author Topic: Shalom  (Read 25916 times)

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Offline Dan Ben Noah

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Shalom
« on: July 05, 2013, 02:50:03 PM »
Shalom
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 09:20:56 PM by Dan Ben Noah »
Jeremiah 16:19 O Lord, Who are my power and my strength and my refuge in the day of trouble, to You nations will come from the ends of the earth and say, "Only lies have our fathers handed down to us, emptiness in which there is nothing of any avail!

Zechariah 8:23 So said the Lord of Hosts: In those days, when ten men of all the languages of the nations shall take hold of the skirt of a Jewish man, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."

Offline muman613

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Re: Uri Ariel calls for the Third Temple to be rebuilt
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2013, 04:06:05 PM »
Kol HaKavod to those Jews who have no fear of stating the obvious truth, as related from the Tanach and through the Prophets, that the Third Temple will stand and the Jews redeemed and gathered into the Holy Land. I have no fear of stating this truth, although I am not a famous personality (only infamous).

Rabbi Chaim Richman has no fear of spreading this message either as he runs the Temple Institute in Jerusalem...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Uri Ariel calls for the Third Temple to be rebuilt
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2013, 04:09:44 PM »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Uri Ariel calls for the Third Temple to be rebuilt
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2013, 04:13:56 PM »
Every generation that does not merit to see the rebuilding, is as if it was destroyed in their days.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Uri Ariel calls for the Third Temple to be rebuilt
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2013, 04:16:16 PM »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline syyuge

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Re: Uri Ariel calls for the Third Temple to be rebuilt
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2013, 03:18:34 PM »
The temple shall be rebuilt as early as possible.
There are thunders and sparks in the skies, because Faraday invented the electricity.

Offline Yerusha

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Re: Uri Ariel calls for the Third Temple to be rebuilt
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2013, 08:05:34 AM »
The majority opinion amongst Orthodoxy seems to be that the 3rd Temple will descend ready-built from Heaven without human intervention
http://jewishmag.com/16mag/temple/temple.htm

This is not the general Kahanist view, which advocates an immediate building with Israeli bulldozers, pile drivers, concrete, rebar and breeze blocks, even without a Heavenly sign, a Moshiach or a High Priest.

Offline muman613

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Re: Uri Ariel calls for the Third Temple to be rebuilt
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2013, 01:47:57 PM »
Dan Ben Noah,

It is not as simple as you suggest it to be. Most of the Sages state that the Third Temple WILL descend from heaven. But there are those who disagree and say that a combination of events will occur, that Moshiach must come and start rebuilding it, then it will descend from heaven. And then there is a minority who disagree with this position.

I also would like to protest your portrayal of those who believe it WILL descend from heaven and LEHAVDIL those of the reform or conservative persuasion. These GREAT GEDOLIM including Rashi and Tosephet who explain how the Temple will be brought down from heaven are anything but reform or conservative jokers and that they are mentioned in the same paragraph is great mistake.

Third I would also like you to learn the Talmud which teaches that the Halacha IS DECIDED by the majority of Sages and Rabbis and not according to who has what appear to be the facts of the case. The Torah clearly gives the majority decision the legal status.

Here is the story from Talmud Tractate Baba Metzia (The talmud volume I studied some pages with my Rabbi last week)...

http://www.torahtots.com/parsha/devarim/nitzav3.htm

Quote
DOWN TO EARTH

The Talmud (Baba Metzia 59b) explains, "it is not in heaven" as follows:

After the Torah was given, it was no longer "in heaven." Hashem does not make Torah decisions in Heaven. Halachic (Torah law) decisions must be decided by human authorities following the guidelines given to Moshe at Har (Mt.) Sinai. It is Hashem's will that the Sages apply the laws of the Torah to the best of their human understanding. Decisions must reflect the opinion of the majority of a Bait Din (Jewish court), who are the final authority in all cases of Torah law.

The Talmud (ibid) brings this story to prove its point.

The Sages were debating whether or not a certain type of oven could become tamay (impure). The majority of the Sages ruled that it could. Rabbi Eliezer ben (son of) Horkenos held that it could not.

Rabbi Eliezer ben Horkenos, perhaps the most outstanding Sage of the generation, cited many proofs in favor of his position, but the Sages, who were the majority, would not accept these proofs.

Rabbi Eliezer ben Horkenos declared: "This carob tree will demonstrate that the Halachah (Torah law) follows my opinion."

A miracle occurred whereby the carob tree uprooted itself and replanted itself 100 cubits away. (some say, four hundred amot).

The Sages replied: "Halachah is not established on the basis of a carob tree.* "
[*Since Rabbi Eliezer was a very righteous man, the tree might have been uprooted at his command. This does not prove, though, that his ruling was correct.]

Rabbi Eliezer ben Horkenos declared: "This stream of water will demonstrate that the Halachah follows my opinion." The stream of water began to flow backwards against the current.

The Sages replied: "Halachah is not established on the basis of a stream."

Rabbi Eliezer ben Horkenos declared: "The walls of the Bait Hamidrash (House of Study) will demonstrate that the Halachah follows my opinion."

The walls of the Bait Hamidrash began to tremble and fall, and the Sages feared that any moment they would collapse.

Rabbi Yehoshua called out to the walls: "Why are you interfering in a Halachic debate among Sages?"

Immediately, out of respect for Rabbi Yehoshua, the walls did not collapse, but out of deference to Rabbi Eliezer, they did not return to their original upright position either. They remained slanted.

Rabbi Eliezer ben Horkenos declared: "The heavens will attest that the Halachah follows my opinion."

A bat kol (heavenly divine voice) proclaimed: "Why do you contest Rabbi Eliezer? The halachah always follows Rabbi Eliezer's teachings."

Rabbi Yehoshua rose and declared:

"It is written: 'It is not in heaven." ' (Devarim ibid).

What is meant by; 'It is not in the heaven'? Rebbi Yirmiah said: It means that we don't listen to a bat kol in matters of Halachah, for the Torah was already given to man at Har Sinai.

Rabbi Yehoshua continued:

"We don't listen to the bat kol because You (Hashem) already wrote in the Torah at Har Sinai (Shmot, Exodus 23:2) 'According to the majority (the matter) shall be decided.'*
[*R' Yehoshua understood this to mean that Hashem would never interfere with the judicial process through which the law is decided. Accordingly he interpreted the Heavenly echo to be merely a test of whether the Sages would hold their ground. And the next story proved him correct.]

Later, one of the Sages, Rabbi Natan met Eliyahu Hanavi (Elijah the prophet). He asked him: "What did Hashem say during this argument?"

Eliyahu replied to him: "He was laughing and saying (with satisfaction), 'My sons won me in the discussion.' "*

[*The Heavenly Voice was meant as a test for the Sages, whether or not they would follow the majority opinion, as commanded by the Torah, and they passed the test.]
[/quote[

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Uri Ariel calls for the Third Temple to be rebuilt
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2013, 01:51:32 PM »
Here is a rational discussion on the apparent disagreement between the sages:



http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/247,2100722/Who-Will-Build-the-3rd-Temple.html#articlepage


We can now approach the primary question about the Third Temple. How will it be built? This is an issue that few people are willing to address because of obvious political implications. But, like it or not, the Third Temple is going to be built one day. So we may as well look at the question now.

There is an essential disagreement among authorities as to how the Third Temple will be built. According to the Rambam (Maimonides), in his work, the Jewish people are commanded to construct a House for G-d.1 The Rambam lists this as one of the 613 eternal commandments of the Torah, relevant and obligatory whenever the Temple is not standing. He derives this from the verse, "And they shall make for Me a sanctuary, and I will dwell among them."2 According to the Rambam, the Jewish people must build the Third Temple any way they can, at any time they can accomplish the task. In the Laws of Kings, the Rambam states that the Messiah, an earthly, Jewish king, will build the Third Temple. And, in fact, he states that the only conclusive proof of the identity of the Messiah is that he will be the one to build the Temple.3

The other view on the subject is derived from Medrash Rabbah, (a book of homiletic expositions from the time of the Talmud) . Here, the Medrash teaches that G-d Himself will build the Third Temple, and it will descend out of the fire from Heaven, onto its appointed place on earth, the Temple Mount. Rashi (the chief and classical bible commentator, circa 1200 C.E.) and Tosefot, (an academy of European scholars circa 1300C.E.) and many other authorities subscribe to this view, and this has become the popular view of the Jewish people. As to the verse, "They shall make for Me a Sanctuary," this opposing view teaches that the directive was already fulfilled with the building of the Mishkan and the first two Temples, and is no longer applicable. They cite as the source for the Third Temple the verse, "You shall bring them in and plant them in the mountain of Your inheritance, in the establishment of Your residence which You have made, O Eternal, the Sanctuary, G-d, which Your hands have established."4

Although the two views appear to be contradictory, both are the words of the Living G-d, and there is no contradiction here at all. Among the many explanations which resolve the argument is the teaching that the redemption (and therefore the Third Temple) can come in one of two ways, b'itoh (in its time) or achishenah (suddenly, at any moment). B'itoh is the end of the fifth milennia, the Jewish year 6000 (as of this writing we are in the year 5759). If final redemption does not come till then, the Jewish people, led by the Messiah, who will be anointed as king by a prophet of G-d, will build the Third Temple. This goes according to the Rambam. But if the redemption comes achishenah, that is, immediately if not sooner, it will be replete with manifold miracles, incomparably greater than during the Exodus from Egypt some 3309 years ago, and the Holy Temple will suddenly appear out of the fire of Heaven atop Mount Moriah in Jerusalem. This is the opinion of Rashi and Tosefot, and the hope and dream and yearning of the Jewish people.

This explains the contradiction, but it does not resolve it. And one does not push away the Rambam with a toothpick. For the Rambam could tell you, "Is that so? Well, the commandments are eternal and G-d has no right to take one of them away from us. So don't give me this 'appearing out of the fire of Heaven' stuff."

The question then becomes, "How can G-d send the Temple down from Heaven already built, yet have it built on earth by the Jewish people?"

In Ohr HaMikdash (Light of the Holy Temple), Rabbi Raphael Moshe Luria resolves the paradox a number of ways. He cites the principle of a hechsher Mitzvah, that is, an act that causes a mitzvah to be fulfilled. For example, the last commandment of the Torah (number 613) commands us to write our own Torah scroll. This is an extraordinary task that few people are capable of performing. It takes years of training to become a scribe, and a trained scribe will spend a year or longer writing a Torah, which must be copied letter by letter from an existing Torah. If one letter is missing or written incorrectly, the Torah is invalid, and considered as no Torah at all.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Uri Ariel calls for the Third Temple to be rebuilt
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2013, 02:05:24 PM »
Regarding the way we deal with two apparently 'contradictory' statements by sages is by applying the idea 'THESE AND THESE ARE THE WORDS OF THE LIVING GOD' as explained in Talmud tractate Eruvin 13b...

http://halakhah.com/pdf/moed/Eiruvin.pdf
Quote
R. Abba stated in the name of Samuel: For three years there was a dispute between Beth Shammai and Beth Hillel, the former asserting, ‘The halachah is in agreement with our views’ and the latter contending, ‘The halachah is in agreement with our views’. Then a bath kol22 issued announcing, ‘[The utterances of] both 23 are the words of the living God, but the halachah is in agreement with the rulings of Beth Hillel’. Since, however, both are the words of the living God’ what was it that entitled Beth Hillel to have the halachah fixed in agreement with their rulings? Because they were kindly and modest, they studied their own rulings and those of Beth Shammai,24 and were even so25 [humble] as to mention the actions26 of Beth Shammai before theirs, (as may be seen from27 what we have learnt: If a man had his head and the greater part of his body within the sukkah28 but his table in the house,29 Beth Shammai ruled [that the booth was] invalid but Beth Hillel ruled that it was valid. Said Beth Hillel to Beth Shammai, ‘Did it not so happen that the elders of Beth Shammai30 and the elders of Beth Hillel went on a visit to R. Johanan b. Hahoranith and found him sitting with his head and greater part of his body within the sukkah while his table was in the house?’ Beth Shammai replied: From31 there proof [may be adduced for our view for] they indeed told him, ‘If you have always acted in this manner you have never fulfilled the commandment of sukkah’). This32 teaches you that him who humbles himself, the Holy One, blessed be He, raises up, and him who exalts himself, the Holy One, blessed be He, humbles; from him who seeks greatness, greatness flees, but him who flees from greatness, greatness follows; he who forces time33 is forced back by time34 but he who yields35 to time36 finds time standing at his side.37
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Uri Ariel calls for the Third Temple to be rebuilt
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2013, 02:11:24 PM »
Islam is praying for its 50000th

The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Yerusha

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Re: Uri Ariel calls for the Third Temple to be rebuilt
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2013, 02:16:09 PM »
So is it going to be



or



?!

Or a bit of both?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 02:30:07 PM by Yerusha »

Offline muman613

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Re: Uri Ariel calls for the Third Temple to be rebuilt
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2013, 02:23:42 PM »
How about like this:

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: Uri Ariel calls for the Third Temple to be rebuilt
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2013, 02:59:40 PM »


I was there with him that day but I couldn't find myself in the video. There were many people up there that day. I saw Noam Federman, HaIvri, and Feiglin there that day.


Offline muman613

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Re: Uri Ariel calls for the Third Temple to be rebuilt
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2013, 04:40:39 PM »
Of course I agree with the idea that we must make the effort to rebuild the Temple, which will hasten the coming of Mashiach, who will complete the building. And I agree that my understanding of Kahanism is a form of activism which supports doing what we can to build the Temple today.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Uri Ariel calls for the Third Temple to be rebuilt
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2013, 04:41:32 PM »
Islam is praying for its 50000th



Actually the zerglings are rapists and pillagers which they produce quick and two at a time, but they can also produce terrorists.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline muman613

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Re: Uri Ariel calls for the Third Temple to be rebuilt
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2013, 04:48:42 PM »
Dan,

How do you contend with an obvious problem with Rambams quoted statements concerning this? One on hand, in one place, he says that the Jewish people must build it. But in another place he states that Moshiach must rebuild it, and this will be proof he is Moshiach?

Quote

There is an essential disagreement among authorities as to how the Third Temple will be built. According to the Rambam (Maimonides), in his work, the Jewish people are commanded to construct a House for G-d.1 The Rambam lists this as one of the 613 eternal commandments of the Torah, relevant and obligatory whenever the Temple is not standing. He derives this from the verse, "And they shall make for Me a sanctuary, and I will dwell among them."2 According to the Rambam, the Jewish people must build the Third Temple any way they can, at any time they can accomplish the task. In the Laws of Kings, the Rambam states that the Messiah, an earthly, Jewish king, will build the Third Temple. And, in fact, he states that the only conclusive proof of the identity of the Messiah is that he will be the one to build the Temple.3

See Law of Kings Chapter 11, Law # 4
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1188356/jewish/Chapter-11.htm
Quote
Halacha 4
If a king will arise from the House of David who diligently contemplates the Torah and observes its mitzvot as prescribed by the Written Law and the Oral Law as David, his ancestor, will compel all of Israel to walk in (the way of the Torah) and rectify the breaches in its observance, and fight the wars of God, we may, with assurance, consider him Mashiach.

If he succeeds in the above, builds the Temple in its place, and gathers the dispersed of Israel, he is definitely the Mashiach.

He will then improve the entire world, motivating all the nations to serve God together, as Tzephaniah 3:9 states: 'I will transform the peoples to a purer language that they all will call upon the name of God and serve Him with one purpose.'

If he did not succeed to this degree or was killed, he surely is not the redeemer promised by the Torah. Rather, he should be considered as all the other proper and complete kings of the Davidic dynasty who died. God caused him to arise only to test the many, as Daniel 11:35 states: 'And some of the wise men will stumble, to try them, to refine, and to clarify until the appointed time, because the set time is in the future.'
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.
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You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Uri Ariel calls for the Third Temple to be rebuilt
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2013, 09:10:49 PM »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Online Chaim Ben Pesach

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Re: Uri Ariel calls for the Third Temple to be rebuilt
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2013, 07:17:38 PM »
בס''ד

The Jews must rebuild the Holy Temple with their own hands.

1. The mitzvot (commandments) on the precise specifications and materials needed to rebuild were not given to us in vain. If there are mitzvot on how exactly to rebuild Beit HaMikdash, that means we are supposed to be the ones rebuilding it. Jews built the first two Holy Temples, and they will build the third as well.

2. As previously mentioned in this thread, HaRambam and other great sages say that one of the signs that a leader is the Mashiach (Messiah) is that he rebuilds Beit HaMikdash.

3. Hashem wants us to be His "partners" in this world as much as possible in order to give us the "zchut" (merit) to obtain "sachar" (be rewarded) on Yom Hadin (the Day of Judgement). If we rebuild the Holy Temple with our own hands, there is far greater "zchut" than if Hashem does all of the work for us.

4. The Charedim who say that Beit HaMikdash is waiting for us in Heaven and that we don't have to rebuild it are the same people who told us that the State of Israel would never be resurrected before the coming of Mashiach and that we cannot create a Jewish state, we have to wait for Hashem to create it for us by Himself. History has proven these people wrong. We are back in Israel after 1800 years of exile, the desolate land has become like a garden once again, and we are winning miraculous victories against our enemies who surround and outnumber us 100 to one. Did Hashem help us with all of these things? Of course, without Him we could never have done it. But we were His partners, sometimes His unwilling partners.

5. There are two batei HaMikdash (Holy Temples) just as there are two Jerusalems - one is the physical one on earth that we must build, the other is entirely spiritual. The physical one is the actual building, the spiritual one is the "amud anan" (pillar of cloud) that descended from Heaven when Shlomo HaMelech built the first temple. When we do what we are supposed to do, then Hashem will turn the temple into a holy place of prophesy where G-d manifests His will. The spiritual temple is waiting in Heaven for us. But we will not see it until we build the physical temple.

6. Even if we cannot yet rebuild the entire temple because we do not know for certain where "kodesh Hakodashim" (the Holy of Holies) is located, we can still rebuild most of it. If we rebuild most of it and turn into the biggest and most magnificent synagogue in the world, eventually Hashem will restore prophesy to us so that we will know exactly where kodesh HaKodashim is located and that will enable us to complete the most important project in world history.

Offline muman613

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Re: Uri Ariel calls for the Third Temple to be rebuilt
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2013, 09:30:18 PM »
We should also admit that not anyone can just start building the Temple and expect it to be the dwelling place for the Shechinah (Divine Presence). The reason David HaMelech (King David) was denied the opportunity to build the first Temple was due to some action on the part of David according to Tanach.

This is why I believe that Chaims ultimate statements that there are two aspects of the Temple, the spiritual and the physical which must come together to bring about the building of the Temple. As I said above we must work diligently to bring about the coming of Moshiach, so that it will be before it's time, and thus we merit rebuilding and seeing the Messianic era.


http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/625408/jewish/Was-King-David-wrong-for-waging-so-many-battles.htm

Question:

I've heard it said that King David was denied the opportunity to build the Holy Temple because he had "blood on his hands" from the many wars he waged. If this is the case, why do we hold David in such high esteem? Why was he chosen to be the progenitor of the Moshiach?

Answer:

You are correct. King David told his son Solomon:

"But the word of G‑d was upon me, saying: 'You have shed much blood, and you have waged great wars; you shall not build a house in My Name because you have shed much blood to the ground before Me. Behold a son will be born to you. He will be a man of peace, and I shall give him peace from all his enemies around about . . . He shall build a House in My Name."1

We always need to concern ourselves with one question only: "What does G‑d want from me right here, right now?" For David, the answer was to go to war to protect his nation against the various military threats that they faced. The fact that later on he was not allowed to build the Temple is no indication that his warfare was a black mark on his record. It was simply incompatible with the peaceful nature of the Temple.

A simple analogy: You are walking to a black tie dinner, and you pass by a muddy swamp. You notice someone sinking in the mucky water, screaming for help, so you jump in and save him. The guy you rescued thanks you profusely and goes on his way—but you won't really feel comfortable continuing on to the black tie dinner in your muddy, dripping suit. Chances are that security will escort you out if you do decide to make an appearance.

So does that mean that you now regret saving the drowning man?

Hope this helps.

Rabbi Moshe Goldman for Chabad.org


1.   I Chronicles 22:8-10.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Uri Ariel calls for the Third Temple to be rebuilt
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2013, 01:14:41 AM »
I was kind of stuck on "we blow it up, pieces go heavenward and return, and then we build it out of that". Halachic?
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Yerusha

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Re: Uri Ariel calls for the Third Temple to be rebuilt
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2013, 03:06:57 PM »
"For in fire You O L-rd incendiarized her, and in fire you will in the future rebuild her!" (Mincha Amida said today on Tisha b'Av).

באש אתה הצתה ובאש אתה עתיד לבנותה

The rebuilding of the Future Jerusalem and 3rd Temple will involve a miraculous use of fire by Hashem.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Uri Ariel calls for the Third Temple to be rebuilt
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2013, 03:27:10 PM »
People who take Midrashim literally and in face value are idiots. The Gemarah even brings the opinion about Mikdash from heaven and outright rejects it (perhaps soo later people wouldn't try to claim it could happen). Yett we are supposed to go by a Midrash and reject both the Gemarah and rationality?
 By the way if you really ask and scrutinize some of the people who say that is will "fall from heaven" in the physical sense, really get down to it their real reason is FEAR. They do not want to provoke the Ishmaelim. That is their real reason, the whole "Mikdash from heaven" is an excuse. Similarly with not even visiting Har HaBayit, why? NOT to provoke the goyim (ishmaelim in this case).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Uri Ariel calls for the Third Temple to be rebuilt
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2013, 03:44:47 PM »
People who take Midrashim literally and in face value are idiots. The Gemarah even brings the opinion about Mikdash from heaven and outright rejects it (perhaps soo later people wouldn't try to claim it could happen). Yett we are supposed to go by a Midrash and reject both the Gemarah and rationality?
 By the way if you really ask and scrutinize some of the people who say that is will "fall from heaven" in the physical sense, really get down to it their real reason is FEAR. They do not want to provoke the Ishmaelim. That is their real reason, the whole "Mikdash from heaven" is an excuse. Similarly with not even visiting Har HaBayit, why? NOT to provoke the goyim (ishmaelim in this case).

As Chaim explained last week there are two parts of the equation. If only you could understand what is being said concerning this. The spiritual aspect of Jewish Unity is required in order to bring us together so that we can fight against the actual physical entity which is preventing us from rebuilding. Without this Unity we will never be able to beat the enemy. I don't believe the problem is due to fear of them but the problem is more a case of realizing that the work which needs to be done is so very difficult.

The Mikdash from heaven is a metaphor for the spiritual aspect which will envelop the Jewish people. When we abandon baseless hatred in favor of ahavat yisrael we will be granted the ability to bring down any giant. Remember that the very first calamity which we remember today (as I sit in my low chair with my stomach grumbling) is the Sin of the Spies where a very evil speech was given disparaging the land. Since that event the Jewish people have been crying for a variety of things which have been caused by this baseless hatred.

It is my belief that the Jewish people, when unified, will be able to accomplish miracles. Removing the current abomination form the Temple mount will require a miracle of sorts, like the miracle of the Maccabees versus  the Greeks (the few against the mighty). The thing I am working for is bringing Jews to believe that we must unify in our commitment to mitzvot, regardless of our minhagim and dress styles. It is small things which keep the Jewish people divided.

Of course, as I explained, and as Chaim explained, there are things which are not acceptable. And Hashem does not require us to tolerate the unacceptable. We must rebuke those who are doing wrong, we must enforce the laws to the best of our current abilities, and we must carry out our responsibilities. But the small things which cause division in the religious Jewish world have had the effect of preventing the geulah.

This is my understanding and this is why I feel it is not as simple as you are making it to be. And you should consider the lesson of the 'Mikdash from heaven' and listen to Chaims explanation again.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Uri Ariel calls for the Third Temple to be rebuilt
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2013, 04:03:14 PM »
  Muman gladd you brought the spies into this- Their underlying factor was both fear of the enemy (after all "we looked like grasshoppers in their eyes") and fear of loosing (personal) power. Perfectly explains what I said earlier.

  And didnt you first try to stand by the "Mikdash from heaven", now your saying it isn't literal?
 
 Their needs to be unity, yes I agree, but that unity must precisely focus on rebuilding the Holy Temple, on making Israel a Jewish state and on working practically on making Am Yisrael successful instead of the wishful thinking, passavist type of existence and just waiting for "Temples to fall from heaven" and Moshiah just poppoing up and curing all our ills.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.