Shalom

[muman613]

  Muman gladd you brought the spies into this- Their underlying factor was both fear of the enemy (after all "we looked like grasshoppers in their eyes") and fear of loosing (personal) power. Perfectly explains what I said earlier.

  And didnt you first try to stand by the "Mikdash from heaven", now your saying it isn't literal?
 
 Their needs to be unity, yes I agree, but that unity must precisely focus on rebuilding the Holy Temple, on making Israel a Jewish state and on working practically on making Am Yisrael successful instead of the wishful thinking, passavist type of existence and just waiting for "Temples to fall from heaven" and Moshiah just poppoing up and curing all our ills.

No Tag, I have always brought down that both 'Mikdash from Heaven' and 'Mikdash from our own work' are both true. Read the selections I posted which resolve the apparent contradiction between Rambam and Rashi. I could post it again but I am sure it is probably in this thread.

I don't work with people who are waiting for a Temple to fall from heaven. The Temple which we currently have, the soul which Hashem gave us, has a mission to spread the teaching that Jews must do what they can to begin the rebuilding. Especially Rabbi Chaim Richman who today went up to the Temple mount and was not permitted to enter due to the rioting of the enemy, he is working hard to teach and to do what is needed for the Temple to stand.



I am one who believes that all the great Sages had wisdom which is essential to bring about Geulah (redemption). I think Chaims explanation was a succinct answer to the question concerning what the 'mikdash from heaven' means.

[muman613]

http://www.templeinstitute.org/

SHALOM AND WELCOME to the official website of the TEMPLE INSTITUTE in Jerusalem, Israel. The Temple Institute is dedicated to every aspect of the Holy Temple of Jerusalem, and the central role it fulfilled, and will once again fulfill, in the spiritual wellbeing of both Israel and all the nations of the world. The Institute's work touches upon the history of the Holy Temple's past, an understanding of the present day, and the Divine promise of Israel's future. The Institute's activities include education, research, and development. The Temple Institute's ultimate goal is to see Israel rebuild the Holy Temple on Mount Moriah in Jerusalem, in accord with the Biblical commandments. We invite you to read our Statement of Principles. To learn more about the Temple Institute, click here.


The Temple Institute is dedicated to all aspects of the Divine commandment for Israel to build a house for G-d's presence, the Holy Temple, on Mount Moriah in Jerusalem. The range of the Institute's involvement with this concept includes education, research, activism, and actual preparation. Our goal is firstly, to restore Temple consciousness and reactive these "forgotten" commandments. We hope that by doing our part, we can participate in the process that will lead to the Holy Temple becoming a reality once more.

Why build the Temple?

Why this fuss over an ancient, seemingly outdated concept? What relationship does the Holy Temple have to our world today? The people of Israel have lived without a Temple for nearly 2,000 years, and seem to be doing fine without one. We don't seem to need it, and G-d certainly doesn't, so why think about rebuilding?

202 Biblical Commandments

The Jewish people accepted the "Yoke of Heaven," the structure of their relationship with the Creator and their spiritual responsibility, at the Mount Sinai revelation. This relationship is based on Israel's acceptance and fulfillment of the Torah's 613 Divine commandments. But in fact, fully one third - 202 of these commandments - are totally dependent on the existence of the Holy Temple for their fulfillment. But what is our attitude regarding these commandments? Do we think of them as inactive, dormant, dead? Do we believe that they are no longer applicable? Do we perhaps relegate them to that nebulous time of messianic redemption; that they will only be activated in the future with the coming of the messiah?

The Torah's commandments are eternal, for now and forever

Nothing can be further from the truth. Maimonides teaches (Sefer Igeret Ha'Shmad) that the performance of all the commandments are not dependent on the coming of the messiah. They are to be fulfilled at all times. G-d does not change His mind, or nullify any of the commandments included in the Torah, which were given once, for all time. In lieu of Temple service, we may observe various "remembrances" of these commandments, but that is all they are - merely gestures of nostalgia.

Fish out of water

But we fool ourselves if we think that the state of Judaism today, without the Temple, is normal. On the contrary, we are like fish out of water. If 1/3 of all the Torah's commandments center on the Temple, it would seem that Biblical observance in the Temple's absence is but a skeleton of what G-d had intended it to be.

Our spiritual alienation

Sadly, much of our contemporary attitudes regarding the Holy Temple are a reflection of our own spiritual bankruptcy and alienation from the spiritual underpinnings of true Torah knowledge and faith. The Holy Temple was not some magnificent building. It was the direct arena for our direct relationship with G-d; the unfolding saga of man's greatest spiritual longing. It was a place where heaven and earth met; a meeting place for man and G-d.

Our relationship with G-d

At this one place on earth, unlike any other, the one place that the Creator Himself chose to rest His presence, the rectification of man's connection with G-d takes place. All people were able to come to the Temple to partake in this direct and fulfilling bond; to recharge their spiritual batteries and come away with a renewed sense of purpose and being.

A new era of universal harmony

Every prophet of Israel, without exception, prophesized that the Temple would be rebuilt, ushering in a new era of universal harmony and peace unparalleled in the history of man. Thus, the "movement" to rebuild the Holy Temple is not new. It was born almost 2,000 years ago, at the moment of the Second Temple's destruction. For when the Holy Temple stood in Jerusalem, it was the soul of Jewish people... and the entire world... as we believe it will be once again.

The rebuilding of the Holy Temple: In our time?

The reality of the Jewish experience means that the Temple will be rebuilt. Many people who visit the Temple Institute are incredulous and cannot help but exclaim: "Do you really think that you will live to see the Holy Temple rebuilt?" The answer to that question is of little importance. Let us rather recall that Jewish history has a trajectory, which began when the patriarch Abraham smashed his father's idols. That trajectory has spanned the millennia, and it is obvious that we are rapidly approaching climactic times, in which the Holy Temple will once again become the focal point for mankind's spiritual focus. Whether this transpires in our generation or not, we can still choose to be active participants, and not simply spectators, in G-d's bold plan for the Redemption of Israel and all humanity.

[muman613]

On another topic which I touched on, many of the commentators and sages believe that a Jew must always create a Mishkan in his heart and soul. This is what I believe the 'Temple from Heaven' may be referring to...


http://www.torah.org/learning/rabbis-notebook/5760/terumah.html

In this week's Parsha, Moshe instructed the Bnai Yisroel in the design and construction of the Mishkan. The building of the Mishkan was in direct response to the sin of the Golden Calf. So long as the Jews had not sinned, G-d's constant caring and direction was open and overt. However, once the Jews lost faith in G-d's and worshipped the Golden Calf, G-d secreted His control over the universe within the laws of nature.

Before the sin of the Golden Calf G-d's reality was self-evident and obvious, similar to the way it was in the Garden of Eden before Adam and Chava sinned. After the sin of the Golden Calf the nation had to work and sacrifice in order to reveal G-d's presence, similar to the way it was after Adam and Chava sinned. After the Jews repented for the sin of the Golden Calf, G-d consented to partially reveal Himself within the midst of the people. However, the manner of His revelation would be limited to within the structure and service of the Mishkan. "…Make Me a sanctuary so that I can dwell in their midst." (25:8)

Many of the commentaries explain that the Mishkan's stated purpose, "So that I can dwell in their midst," really means, "in their hearts." As it says, "In my heart I will build a Mishkan, for the sake of the glory of His honor." G-d originally intended that there not be a Mishkan or a Bais Hamikdash. G-d wanted that every person's actions would radiate the awareness of His presence in all instances, without the need of a Mishakan. (Sforno) Once the Jews lost their capacity to personally reflect G-d's presence, the Mishkan replaced what we should have each been. Therefore, our capacity to recognize and display G-dliness must be symbolically represented through the various components of the Mishkan described in Terumah and Tizaveh.

[Yerusha]

There is a possibility that Nafatali Bennett will one day be the Israeli PM and that Uri Ariel will be his number 2.

Do these fellows really have the courage of their convictions? ie without a Divine Sign, without a Moshiach, without approval from the "Gedolim", and facing the mortal opposition of the ENTIRE world (including 95% of the Israeli populace + the Haredim) and the knowledge that it would result in Israel being immediately attacked and could start WW3 and literally the End of the World, would they really order the D9 Dubi bulldozers on to the Temple Mount to commence destruction/construction?!



We know that in 1967 immediately following the capture of the Har Habayis firebrand Chief Rabbi Shlomoh Goren would have.

If R.Kahane had become PM in 1988, would he have ordered the bulldozer engines fired up? Or would he have been more circumspect?

And Chaim?

[muman613]

There is a possibility that Nafatali Bennett will one day be the Israeli PM and that Uri Ariel will be his number 2.

Do these fellows really have the courage of their convictions? ie without a Divine Sign, without a Moshiach, without approval from the "Gedolim", and facing the mortal opposition of the ENTIRE world (including 95% of the Israeli populace + the Haredim) and the knowledge that it would result in Israel being immediately attacked and could start WW3 and literally the End of the World, would they really order the D9 Dubi bulldozers on to the Temple Mount to commence destruction/construction?!



If R.Kahane had become PM in 1988, would he have ordered the bulldozer engines fired up? Or would he have been more circumspect?

We know that in 1967 Chief Rabbi Shlomoh Goren would have.

And Chaim?

Yerusha, this is exactly my point. Without a form of Jewish unity the building itself will be pointless. If all religious Jews would be together on this then I think that we could begin building. This is where I believe the real miracle needs to happen. Moshiach certainly would be a great thing to bring about this unity, but without our work of 'Kiruv' we will not attain Moshiach or the rebuilding.

I believe that Kahane could have brought more unity to the Jewish people had he not been killed by the assassin. Since I also believe that everything which happens must be OK with Hashem (for he let it happen and had foreknowledge of it) then I must come to the conclusion that the time was not right for Moshiach or the Temple. I agree that Rabbi Kahane was the closest thing to the actual Moshiach in our generation but the time was not right.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

  Muman gladd you brought the spies into this- Their underlying factor was both fear of the enemy (after all "we looked like grasshoppers in their eyes") and fear of loosing (personal) power. Perfectly explains what I said earlier.

  And didnt you first try to stand by the "Mikdash from heaven", now your saying it isn't literal?
 
 Their needs to be unity, yes I agree, but that unity must precisely focus on rebuilding the Holy Temple, on making Israel a Jewish state and on working practically on making Am Yisrael successful instead of the wishful thinking, passavist type of existence and just waiting for "Temples to fall from heaven" and Moshiah just poppoing up and curing all our ills.

Correct.  The lack of unity was due to love of money and hatred of one another (as stated by Talmud Yerushalmi in Tractate Yoma 1:1).   As Rav Bar Hayim points out, love of and pursuit of money is directly involved in the internecine struggles and fragmentation of the Jewish people that we saw in the 2nd Temple period - All the factionalism that comes with a pursuit of money and power at the expense of unified vision and purpose for a Jewish Torah nation.  Because striving for personal power in rivalry with others cannot coexist with an ideological leadership in line with Jewish principles and goals.  This factionalism, evident in the many "sects" ie sadducees, biryonim, essenes, etc (I think there were more which may not even be mentioned by the Talmud), led to our downfall and is the precise current reason why we still do not have a Temple.  The same desire for political hegemony over factions of the Jewish people dominates over the vision of a unified entity which seeks to do Hashem's will on a national level.    Just as some commentaries point out, if we live in a generation where the Temple is still not built, it is indicative that we are guilty of the same sins which brought about its destruction.

Labor and Likud constantly fight each other over who gets to play hero and implement the Oslo Accords.  Here are 2 equivalent groups with the same exact national goals (albeit evil national goals which contradict the Torah) and even they can't just get along and make their own desires manifest.   That's only one example because in the Torah world we have competing factions that undermine each other and lack vision too.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

I wonder if there are any Reform, Conservative, or even Karaite that are right leaning that we could influence, and work with? I don't know... Nope! We bash them to much!

We're right you're wrong...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I wonder if there are any Reform, Conservative, or even Karaite that are right leaning that we could influence, and work with? I don't know... Nope! We bash them to much!

We're right you're wrong...

They decided to stop following Judaism.  So how can we "work with them?"   They basically said, the Jewish nation as it was constituted is not acceptable to us therefore we separate from it and start our own.     And you blame US for not working with THEM?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I wonder if there are any Reform, Conservative, or even Karaite that are right leaning that we could influence, and work with? I don't know... Nope! We bash them to much!

We're right you're wrong...

 When you say "work with" what exactly do you mean? If it means to influence them and all Jews (in the greater scheme all people) in the right direction I agree. BUT if it means accepting some positions that are anti-Torah for the sake of agreement then their is no possibility and no right to do soo.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

I knew I would get somebody going by that. Where I live(the second largest city in the state) there is only a Reform Synagogue... You mean to tell me they are ALL leftists? But if we type cast the Reform, ect. They will never work with us, and they will never come back to true Torah law! You have to remember, they think they are right... You can't bash them and then say join us... You have to interest them and then lead them with a gentle hand.
The Temple was destroyed because everyone split up and was fighting with each other. Where did that get them? And today it is a 100 fold!

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

When you say "work with" what exactly do you mean? If it means to influence them and all Jews (in the greater scheme all people) in the right direction I agree. BUT if it means accepting some positions that are anti-Torah for the sake of agreement then their is no possibility and no right to do soo.

No, I don't mean compromise... I mean lead them to truth softly.

[muman613]

When you say "work with" what exactly do you mean? If it means to influence them and all Jews (in the greater scheme all people) in the right direction I agree. BUT if it means accepting some positions that are anti-Torah for the sake of agreement then their is no possibility and no right to do soo.

This is exactly true. I have said many times that there is a difference between accepting sin and tolerating it. If a person makes a sin, against Hashem, or against his people, and he works on rectifying it then he can be forgiven. But people who persist in their wrong beliefs and actions, after being rebuked, are going on the wrong road.

I don't hate Reform or Conservative for being reform or conservative, heck I was Bar Mitzvahed in a Conservative shul and I know that there are righteous people involved with such things. But those who hold beliefs which run contrary to Jewish beliefs and purport to be teaching a new 'liberal' version of the Torah are nothing more than modern day heretics and informers.

I am glad an Orthodox Rabbi did Kiruv at the shul which I first discovered after my Teshuva. Because of HaKeres HaTov (Appreciating the good) I cannot hate that shul (even though they know I disagree about many things there) and I know that shul is pro-Israel (of course not at the level we are pro-Israel). It is my hope we can set a good example and bring more of these lost Jews back to a more authentic and Torah inspired life.

[muman613]

I believe Ephraim is correct in his approach, push away with the left hand and pull in with the right hand... I wrote about this a few years ago...

[muman613]

http://halakhah.com/sotah/sotah_47.html

Sotah 47a

Our Rabbis have taught: Always let the left hand thrust away and the right hand draw near. Not like Elisha who thrust Gehazi away with both his hands (and not like R. Joshua b. Perahiah who thrust one of his disciples away with both his hands).11  How is it with Elisha? As it is written: And Naaman said: Be content, take two talents,12  and it is written: And he said unto him, Went not my heart with thee when the man turned again from his chariot to meet thee? Is it a time to receive money, and to receive garments, and oliveyards, and sheep and oxen, and manservants and maidservants?13  But had he received all these things? Silver and garments were what he had received! — R. Isaac said: At that time Elisha was engaged [in the study of the Law concerning] the eight kinds of [unclean] creeping things;14  so he said to [Gehazi], 'You wicked person, the time has arrived for you to receive the reward for [studying the law of] the eight creeping things.'15  The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee and unto thy seed for ever.16

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I knew I would get somebody going by that. Where I live(the second largest city in the state) there is only a Reform Synagogue... You mean to tell me they are ALL leftists? But if we type cast the Reform, ect. They will never work with us, and they will never come back to true Torah law! You have to remember, they think they are right... You can't bash them and then say join us... You have to interest them and then lead them with a gentle hand.
The Temple was destroyed because everyone split up and was fighting with each other. Where did that get them? And today it is a 100 fold!

I think you are very confused.  Will elaborate later.
Btw, I was raised as a  reform Jew, just for reference..

[muman613]

I think you are very confused.  Will elaborate later.
Btw, I was raised as a  reform Jew, just for reference..

I would be interested to understand what it is which you think is wrong with Ephraims statement.

I too do not believe we can just bash reform and expect them to do anything but attempt to rationalize their position. Only through outreach can we bring them back. But you have another idea... Please explain.

Also what we call 'reform' is not monolithic. I have met people at the 'progressive' shul which I first attended who are not die-hard liberals. There are independents and some center-right conservatives (politically) and this is why that shul held a very big pro-Israel rally recently.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I too do not believe we can just bash reform and expect them to do anything but attempt to rationalize their position. Only through outreach can we bring them back. But you have another idea...

Once again, I request that you not put words into my mouth (or to anyone else's for that matter)

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I knew I would get somebody going by that. Where I live(the second largest city in the state) there is only a Reform Synagogue... You mean to tell me they are ALL leftists? But if we type cast the Reform, ect. They will never work with us, and they will never come back to true Torah law! You have to remember, they think they are right... You can't bash them and then say join us... You have to interest them and then lead them with a gentle hand.
The Temple was destroyed because everyone split up and was fighting with each other. Where did that get them? And today it is a 100 fold!

1.  Who exactly did we refuse to work with, whom you believe we should have?   (I don't believe I'll get an actual answer to that one).

2.  Do realize that there were traditional Jews, and the factions formed specifically to fight against the traditional Jews and Jewish system.  That's what the reform movement was, it's what the haskala was and became, and it's what the conservative movement is.  And it's just about every leftwing Jewish organization today having those same goals.  To separate from the Jewish people and form their own "stream" (of course with their own leaders and hierarchy and clergy - read POWER, MONEY, AUTHORITY).   So the traditional, faithful Jews are NOT the ones who caused these rifts when you are referring to so-called movements of fake Judaism.

3.  There is no one on this forum (that I'm aware of at least) that bashes reform Jews.   We criticize the REFORM MOVEMENT because it's an evil movement that sought to eradicate Judaism by christianizing it, removing the obligations the founders didn't like, and gaining approval of the non-Jews to be accepted by them.   It is not Judaism.   Oh, and it is also pro Arab and was an antizionist movement when it was formed (and arguably still is today, although they claim otherwise).   So the people leading this sick movement are simply traitors.   That doesn't mean all the followers, congregants, or just people affiliated to the movement are traitors or evil.
 
So where did you get the idea that we bash the reform JEWS who are either born into this movement or don't know any better, or where did we say every single one of them is a leftist?   No, the movement is a leftist movement - by definition.   Obviously there are good people who are being misled by reform so-called "rabbis" and can be convinced of the truth and shown what real Judaism is.   That has happened to many, myself included.   Chaim is doing that type of outreach at all times with his programs and videos.    It is outreach to already-religious (traditional orthodox) Jews to influence their opinions, and it is also outreach to reform/conserv/secular/atheist etc Jews to encourage them to become religious and also to influence their opinions.   Who at this forum in your view is not on board with that?   

What's also likely to happen is that if there is a right-leaning Jew within the reform movement, he'll simply become alienated by the reform "temple's" political grandstanding and just stop attending.   Because the reform "temple" itself is actually a tool of political activism.   This can also be sometimes known as Such-and-such Place of Liberal Judaism as opposed to "reform Judaism."  Either way, they are constantly pumping the leftist cause inside even more so than they promote religion of any kind.    So a person with generally rightwing views will naturally be turned off by that and turned away.    I'm sure that also happens.  So where does that person turn?  Maybe to an orthodox shul?  Maybe to a kiruv program?  Maybe to JTF?  Most likely, he just doesnt go to shul and lives as a secular guy, just as before.   After a shul experience that is the equivalent of a save the whales campaign, who's going to want to look for another shul?

As for Karaites, they also do NOT follow Judaism, they broke away and made up their own laws and rejected the authority of the transmission of Torah over the ages from Moshe on down.   Rambam writes that we should reach out to them - NOT to be their friends or make them like us, but to convince them to change their ways and embrace their true traditions, which is real Judaism, what we follow and what their pre-karaitic ancestors also followed.   So you see, we're supposed to try to get them to accept the truth, not hide the truth and pretend everything is ok so that they like us and feel "united."   Their way is wrong and ours is right, period.   That does not constitute baseless hatred.

I find your accusations outrageous and out of place.

[muman613]

Once again, I request that you not put words into my mouth (or to anyone else's for that matter)

So you think calling them 'deformed' and other such names is not bashing? Also I did not say anything about what you said, just responding because you seemed in disagreement with what Ephraim said, which seemed to me to be completely rational.

PS: I am just as guilty as the next because at times I am very frustrated at the entire 'reform/conservative/progressive' movements of Judaism and I have resorted to calling them 'deformed'. They are blurring the line of what is a Jew and leading many astray. But as I said before there are certainly good people there.

And I agree there is nothing to talk about with Karaites, they are not even Jews...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

So you think calling them 'deformed' and other such names is not bashing? Also I did not say anything about what you said, just responding because you seemed in disagreement with what Ephraim said, which seemed to me to be completely rational.

PS: I am just as guilty as the next because at times I am very frustrated at the entire 'reform/conservative/progressive' movements of Judaism and I have resorted to calling them 'deformed'. They are blurring the line of what is a Jew and leading many astray. But as I said before there are certainly good people there.

You just never learn, do you?   Can't you just apologize instead of arguing that you didn't do anything when it's clear as day that you DID put words in my mouth?     And all I did in response was to ask you not to do that.    You can't respect that request?   You can't admit that it's even a problem at least?

Now since you're denying it, let me refresh your memory (even though I directly quoted this in my response anyway, so I think you are just pretending).

I too do not believe we can just bash reform and expect them to do anything but attempt to rationalize their position. Only through outreach can we bring them back. But you have another idea...

Bold added for emphasis.   You interpreted Ephraim's statement, assumed that there is no other possible interpretation that a human brain could possibly come up with and so yours must be the only one, then assumed my opinion as being directly contradictory to your idea that "only through outreach we can bring them back" and "we can(not) just bash" them.    You clearly put words in my mouth to the effect that I think the opposite of those 2 statements.    And yet, I never said that, and I do not believe that.   Wouldn't I be the one who would know what I believe? 

So that was what I meant when I asked you not to put words in my mouth.  It means, "Don't ascribe opinions to me which I myself did not state as my own opinions."    Can you respect that request and apply it to other members here too?   It would erase a ton of friction if you would just be willing to abide by that basic principle.

I jokingly and disparagingly call the movement Deformed (the movement, not the people who are members in a deform shul and certainly not every single one of those people!) because it is deformed.   It's fake Judaism.  It has led the Jewish people astray, it is fraudulent, it is traitorous, and it supports our enemies.  Not to mention, you know, it is a rebellion against God and his Torah?   So they deserve far worse than a light pun like "Deform movement" thank you very much.

[muman613]

You just never learn, do you?   Can't you just apologize instead of arguing that you didn't do anything when it's clear as day that you DID put words in my mouth?     And all I did in response was to ask you not to do that.    You can't respect that request?   You can't admit wrongdoing?

Now since you're denying it, let me refresh your memory (even though I directly quoted this in my response anyway, so I think you are just pretending).

Bold added for emphasis.   You interpreted Ephraim's statement, assumed that there is no other possible interpretation that a human brain could possibly come up with and so yours must be the only one, then assumed my opinion as being directly contradictory to your idea that "only through outreach we can bring them back" and "we can(not) just bash" them.    You clearly put words in my mouth to the effect that I think the opposite of those 2 statements.    And yet, I never said that, and I do not believe that.   Wouldn't I be the one who would know what I believe? 

I jokingly and disparagingly call the movement Deformed (the movement, not the people who are members in a deform shul and certainly not every single one of those people!) because it is deformed.   It's fake Judaism.  It has led the Jewish people astray, it is fraudulent, it is traitorous, and it supports our enemies.  Not to mention, you know, it is a rebellion against God and his Torah?   So they deserve far worse than a light pun like "Deform movement" thank you very much.

KWRBT,

You must have had a bad fast or something because you are misreading what I wrote and trying to find fault where there is none..

Did you not write:

I think you are very confused.  Will elaborate later.
Btw, I was raised as a  reform Jew, just for reference..

This is what I am referring to when I said you 'have another idea' and I wanted to hear it. I had no idea you would read it the way you did. I wanted to hear why you thought that 'Ephraim was confused'. Sometimes KWRBT you seem overly defensive to me...

 

[muman613]

And in support of Ephraim I would like to point out that it is important to state that the problem is with the leaders of the 'reform' movement and not the people brought up in it. This is why I think Ephraim had the right idea, to do outreach to all kinds of Jews, and you seemed to disagree.

[muman613]

And another note on this current issue...

I don't think we should support reform causes, we should rebuke them. But we should rebuke them according to how the Torah and sages tell us how to rebuke them. As I posted above, concerning pushing away with the left while bringing close with the right... We will not change the 'reform movement' but we will save some Jews from almost certain 'soul death'.

This is why I think what Ephraim said was the almost correct approach, except for including Karaites which have abandoned Jewish beliefs a long long time ago.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

KWRBT,

You must have had a bad fast or something because you are misreading what I wrote and trying to find fault where there is none..

Did you not write:

This is what I am referring to when I said you 'have another idea' and I wanted to hear it. I had no idea you would read it the way you did. I wanted to hear why you thought that 'Ephraim was confused'. Sometimes KWRBT you seem overly defensive to me...

Muman.

You wrote this:

I too do not believe we can just bash reform and expect them to do anything but attempt to rationalize their position. Only through outreach can we bring them back. But you have another idea...

Bold added for emphasis.  You listed 2 ideas: "only through outreach we can bring them back" and "we can(not) just bash" them.  By writing "But you have another idea" directly following that, you assumed (incorrectly) that I disagree with those 2 concepts.  Hence, you ascribed the following beliefs to me:  That we "can bring them back without outreach" (or maybe you meant "we don't need to bring them back") and "we can just bash them."
I don't know how I can make it clearer.  I don't know how you cannot see that you put those words in my mouth.

And what does it stem from?   Because Ephraim made a comment, which I thought about in a completely different way than you, but you assumed that YOUR INTERPRETATION OF EPHRAIM'S STATEMENT WAS THE ONLY POSSIBLE INTERPRETATION THAT A HUMAN BRAIN COULD COME UP WITH, and therefore, since I wrote that Ephraim was confused, it MUST BE, it absolutely MUST BE that not only did I interpret his comment exactly as you did, but I also disagreed with the concept he put forth (according to you as you interpret him).   Did you ever stop to think that perhaps I viewed his comment in a totally different way than you?    Why is this so hard to understand?   Am I not being clear?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

And in support of Ephraim I would like to point out that it is important to state that the problem is with the leaders of the 'reform' movement and not the people brought up in it. This is why I think Ephraim had the right idea, to do outreach to all kinds of Jews, and you seemed to disagree.

Welcome to the loony bin.

He didn't say this.   You just read one of my latest comments and now ascribe my own view onto what he said.

Quote me a place where Ephraim distinguished between members and leaders in this thread.   Please I'm begging you, quote it for me.

Or maybe you just want to quote my latest post and switch the name to Ephraim?   You are really out of line here Muman.   


I called him confused because he sounds like he is saying we need to accept the movements.  Or that our rejection of the movements and bashing the movements is somehow equivalent to bashing all individuals associated with it.   When that's not true.

Criticizing the Deform movement is just telling the truth.  If we hide the truth, people will just think it's fine and they will never realize the evil history behind it.