Shalom

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I asked a Chabad rabbi and he said "I don't know. I hope so.". Sometimes they say there are many opinions and don't give an answer.

 

"I hope so?"  Wow.  What does that even mean?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Sure, everyone hopes their leader is Moshiach!

HE IS ALREADY DEAD.   That's like lehavdil hoping for a dead guy to be major league baseball's most valuable player.   Only live baseball players can be the MVP.   Babe ruth can't win this year's MVP so stop "hoping" for that.

I also don't understand if a messiah is coming, and no matter who he is he will do x y z, why does someone hope that his personal rebbe is that messiah?    It makes no difference.   It could be an albino from Seskatchewan, as long as he does what the messiah is supposed to do what bearing does it have whether it was a lubavitcher rebbe, a munkatch rebbe, or any other kind of rebbe?   
This is like saying, I hope my great great grandfather was the moshiach (even though he's already dead and clearly wasn't the moshiach, but maybe in some parallel universe he really was).  First, why does it have to be your great grandfather?   Ego?  Some kind of pride thing?   Secondly, how can someone who already lived a life that proved he was not messiah then died, ACTUALLY BE the messiah?   Just lunacy.   This is the talk of crazy people.  And you think it's fine based on whatever belief system you subscribe to, so you are in effect perpetuating craziness among Jews.  I urge you not to do that.   And that is why I contradict your inaccurate statements.

Sure, everyone hopes their leader is Moshiach!

No, they don't.  I don't know where you got this idea from.  This sounds like you are describing a personality cult.  Or maybe a real cult with kool aid and everything.

And we don't know truly how G-d has things planned out.

Who claimed to know how God planned things out?

I think the messiah has been here multiple times, and he will tell us who he was when he finally comes...

You are free to make up any belief you want, but Jews are supposed to follow Judaism, not made up beliefs.   Judaism has parameters.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

What? On the forum? No, on earth!

I think you and others slow the coming of Moshiach, by being so negative.

Making stuff up again.

You guys wouldn't know if Moshiach was standing right next to you!

Yes we would because we have an easy litmus test.   Did you built the Bet Hamikdash?  Did you fight wars against the enemies of the Jewish people?   Very easy to tell who could be anointed king with clear parameters set out by Judaism as to what such a figure does.   It's funny to me that you want to hijack the concept of messiah from Judaism but then redefine it according to your own made up ideas.    Why not call it something else then and stop holding us accountable to beliefs to which we don't subscribe?

Your right, everyone else is wrong...

You're, not your.

I sometimes wonder if you truly want the Moshiach to come.

Why would you wonder about that?   I'm quite sure that Tag davens for that every day.   But maybe what you are calling "moshiach" is something else that you invented and not the concept from Judaism?   In that case, we definitely don't want your so-called messiah (whatever that might be).

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

What? On the forum? No, on earth!

I think you and others slow the coming of Moshiach, by being so negative. You guys wouldn't know if Moshiach was standing right next to you! Your right, everyone else is wrong...

I sometimes wonder if you truly want the Moshiach to come.

 I was just messing with you. Making fun of the idea of "reincarnation" at the same time.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

I was just messing with you. Making fun of the idea of "reincarnation" at the same time.

Sorry, I think I might of been a little high from auto body paint.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

HE IS ALREADY DEAD.   That's like lehavdil hoping for a dead guy to be major league baseball's most valuable player.   Only live baseball players can be the MVP.   Babe ruth can't win this year's MVP so stop "hoping" for that.

I also don't understand if a messiah is coming, and no matter who he is he will do x y z, why does someone hope that his personal rebbe is that messiah?    It makes no difference.   It could be an albino from Seskatchewan, as long as he does what the messiah is supposed to do what bearing does it have whether it was a lubavitcher rebbe, a munkatch rebbe, or any other kind of rebbe?   
This is like saying, I hope my great great grandfather was the moshiach (even though he's already dead and clearly wasn't the moshiach, but maybe in some parallel universe he really was).  First, why does it have to be your great grandfather?   Ego?  Some kind of pride thing?   Secondly, how can someone who already lived a life that proved he was not messiah then died, ACTUALLY BE the messiah?   Just lunacy.   This is the talk of crazy people.  And you think it's fine based on whatever belief system you subscribe to, so you are in effect perpetuating craziness among Jews.  I urge you not to do that.   And that is why I contradict your inaccurate statements.

No, they don't.  I don't know where you got this idea from.  This sounds like you are describing a personality cult.  Or maybe a real cult with kool aid and everything.

Who claimed to know how God planned things out?

You are free to make up any belief you want, but Jews are supposed to follow Judaism, not made up beliefs.   Judaism has parameters.

So, because I believe in reincarnation and the Moshiach is here all the time waiting for us, I'm crazy and leading Jews astray?


Behold, all these things does God do -- twice, even three times with a man -- to bring his soul back from the pit that he may be enlightened with the light of the living. (Job 33:29)

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

You're, not your.

If you would like you can go through my posts and get a lot more spelling, grammar, and punctuation errors...

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

So, because I believe in reincarnation and the Moshiach is here all the time waiting for us, I'm crazy and leading Jews astray?


Behold, all these things does God do -- twice, even three times with a man -- to bring his soul back from the pit that he may be enlightened with the light of the living. (Job 33:29)

 Actually he was referring to the Bahai belief in the Mehdi. I'm not sure about the Bahai, but I know its a type of Shia or 12thers belief where the "Mehdi" is supposedly always here but hidden and about to be revealed and then make the whole world be under Shia Islam.

2nd part I believe  Dan Ben Noah addressed that earlier some time ago. Search the forum for it, the explanation is given and it is taken out of its context. Just search it.

[muman613]

I will once again point out that the concept of Gilgul is accepted as a possible explanation for a lot of things according to Chassidus and Kabbalah. I believe there are many hints to this in the Tanach, and Ephraim has brought a single example of these concepts.

I have discussed this topic a lot and it is getting a bit old having to go through it each time this comes up.

While gilgulim and the entire transmigration of souls concept is not 'dogma' and certainly not required belief for everyone  it is a respected belief by a great deal of Orthodox Jews today.

Here Rabbi Frand discusses some of the hints in the Talmud about Gilgul...

http://www.torah.org/learning/ravfrand/5772/bamidbar.html

[muman613]

Or just look at the few verses preceding it in the book of Job and the context makes it clear that it's talking about God punishing someone in life twice, three times so they repent and their soul doesn't go to the pit.  It's saying nothing about reincarnation.  Saadia Gaon said reincarnation was a falsehood.  But of course sound logic like this will never persuade the mystic mafia, which finds support for their false doctrines in the Bible just like the Christians find support for Jesus and the Muslims find support for Muhammad.  Bahais believe that their prophet was a reincarnation of Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, and I think a few other people.  So this belief is closer to Bahai than Judaism, which is why I asked the question I did.

Well the fact of the matter is that a great number of Jews believe this regardless of what Sadia Gaon (who is well respected also) said. I think it is foolish to write off this belief because learning these concepts brings a great spiritual depth to Judaism which doesn't exist for those who ignore it.

I will continue learning and teaching Kabbalah concepts for as long as I can. You can disregard it but I know that there are a great number of Jews who really want to learn about these beliefs. I strongly disagree with your placing your trust in Sadia Gaon and the mitnagdim.

I would think you would not accept the concept of Resurrection of the Dead because as we discussed before there is absolutely no mention of this concept in the Torah. And the basis of this idea comes from the interpretation of a Prophet (which others interpret differently also). Rambam even believes in Resurrection even though there is no rational reason to believe it..


I also object to your portraying Chassidic Jews as if we are Christians ... That is freaking obnoxious, rude, and makes you on my Crap list Dan.. I doubt you will EVER be a Jew because you do not have what it takes..

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

So, because I believe in reincarnation and the Moshiach is here all the time waiting for us, I'm crazy and leading Jews astray?   

No because that's a straw man argument and clearly not what I said.

Behold, all these things does God do -- twice, even three times with a man -- to bring his soul back from the pit that he may be enlightened with the light of the living. (Job 33:29)

Relevance?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

If you would like you can go through my posts and get a lot more spelling, grammar, and punctuation errors...

Just wanted to fix that one in particular because I was reinforcing your point that we are right and you are wrong, which you yourself said.

[muman613]

And Dan thinks that because he is a moderator on the Jewish forum he is an expert on Jewish thought... Haha!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I will once again point out that the concept of Gilgul is accepted as a possible explanation for a lot of things according to Chassidus and Kabbalah. I believe there are many hints to this in the Tanach, and Ephraim has brought a single example of these concepts.

I have discussed this topic a lot and it is getting a bit old having to go through it each time this comes up.

While gilgulim and the entire transmigration of souls concept is not 'dogma' and certainly not required belief for everyone  it is a respected belief by a great deal of Orthodox Jews today.

Here Rabbi Frand discusses some of the hints in the Talmud about Gilgul...

http://www.torah.org/learning/ravfrand/5772/bamidbar.html

Gilgul has been discussed at length here before.   But stop derailing this discussion just because Ephraim raised the concept of gilgul and claimed that I was attacking him solely on that basis.   GILGUL was definitely NOT the reason I contradicted his claims.   I am dispelling his confusion regarding Judaism and the Jewish concept known as messiah.   Whether one accepts gilgulim or not, he is making up concepts - irrespective of gilgulim - that are not found in Judaism.

So don't start derailing this with article after article of copy-paste about the concept of gilgulim please.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

And Dan thinks that because he is a moderator on the Jewish forum he is an expert on Jewish thought... Haha!

But Ephraim who is also not a Jew but unlike Dan has not learned Judaism, somehow is an authority over Dan?   Haha...ha!

[muman613]

Gilgul has been discussed at length here before.   But stop derailing this discussion just because Ephraim raised the concept of gilgul and claimed that I was attacking him solely on that basis.   GILGUL was definitely NOT the reason I contradicted his claims.   I am dispelling his confusion regarding Judaism and the Jewish concept known as messiah.   Whether one accepts gilgulim or not, he is making up concepts - irrespective of gilgulim - that are not found in Judaism.

So don't start derailing this with article after article of copy-paste about the concept of gilgulim please.

KWRBT,

I am not upset at what you and Ephraim are saying. I have agreed with you that believing in dead person being Moshiach is not the Jewish way. Moshiach must accomplish his goal in his lifetime.

On the topic of Gilgul though I am of the belief that it is an acceptable belief, although not Dogma. So a person can believe it, or not believe it, so long as they keep the mitzvot and study Torah... But people who want to cleave to Hashem (as commanded in this weeks portion) can believe in these ideas if they answer basic spiritual questions. It is not against the Torah to believe in Gilgul, and there are many many hints to this (if you are open to the idea).

I don't like it when the concept is called 'false' or 'against Judaism' because I believe that is not true. I am not blaming you KWRBT nor Tag as both of you (while I accept you don't believe these ideas) have been accepting of my belief in them. I don't want to have never-ending debates on these topics and hope we all can just co-exist in this area of 'theology'.

[muman613]

But Ephraim who is also not a Jew but unlike Dan has not learned Judaism, somehow is an authority over Dan?   Haha...ha!

No, I am not supporting Ephraim on that topic. I stated my opinion twice, that a dead moshiach is a non-starter...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

KWRBT,

I am not upset at what you and Ephraim are saying. I have agreed with you that believing in dead person being Moshiach is not the Jewish way. Moshiach must accomplish his goal in his lifetime.

On the topic of Gilgul though I am of the belief that it is an acceptable belief, although not Dogma. So a person can believe it, or not believe it, so long as they keep the mitzvot and study Torah... But people who want to cleave to Hashem (as commanded in this weeks portion) can believe in these ideas if they answer basic spiritual questions. It is not against the Torah to believe in Gilgul, and there are many many hints to this (if you are open to the idea).

I don't like it when the concept is called 'false' or 'against Judaism' because I believe that is not true. I am not blaming you KWRBT nor Tag as both of you (while I accept you don't believe these ideas) have been accepting of my belief in them. I don't want to have never-ending debates on these topics and hope we all can just co-exist in this area of 'theology'.

Ok.  I'm with you on this.   I also feel that a Jew can believe in gilgulim even if I am personally a gilgul skeptic.

[muman613]

Dan,

I don't think you meant to insult me and my congregation... Maybe you didn't think about how I would react (although I suspect some other readers may also object but not say so)...

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

No because that's a straw man argument and clearly not what I said.

Relevance?

That is indeed  what you implied!

It's funny that Josephus recorded that the Essenes and Pharisees believed in reincarnation. What are you a Sadducees?

Gotta go more paint to huff!

[muman613]

So if it's ok to express that a certain non-essential doctrine is true, why is it not ok to express that the same non-essential doctrine is false?

Because as I stated there are a great number of Jews who believe in these doctrines as a way of establishing a closer relationship to Hashem. I don't expect you to understand coming from your background, but the Jews of Ukraine and Russia were kept Jewish though some of these beliefs. I do believe these beliefs helped keep the Jewish people alive during a great darkness (the pogroms in Ukraine for example).

This is why I think Judaism without these ideas is fine but I find Chassidus very fulfilling and helpful for keeping the mitzvot.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

That is indeed  what you implied!

Not at all.  It must be that you misunderstood or misinterpreted my comments.  I suggest you reread them.

It's funny that Josephus recorded that the Essenes and Pharisees believed in reincarnation. What are you a Sadducees?

Funny in what way?
Where did Josephus write this?     Provide a reference please.

I won't bring up the fact that Josephus was a traitor and also probably not reliable on certain matters of history, but I just first want to see where you're getting this from.

No I am not a Sadduccee chas veshalom.

Saadiah Gaon was not a saducee and he refuted the concept of gilgulim as being non-Jewish in origin.   Not only that but he was among the prime opponents of a contemporary group called Karaites, who founded themselves on the concept of Sadducees (even though they didn't have an actual line of tradition from the saduccees of chazal's time).

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I think they were kept Jewish by keeping halacha.  I fail to see how a non-Jewish belief would keep someone Jewish.  If believing in reincarnation is what keeps you Jewish, why aren't Hindus and Buddhists converting to Judaism in droves?

I concur with Dan here.  I don't believe the specific belief in gilgulim, while it does answer an important philosophical question people might ponder, had anything to do with whether Jews of Ukraine and Russia (or anywhere for that matter) remained Jewish.   I don't know of a single historian of Jewish history who has claimed such a thing that it was that belief in particular that saved Jewry.   

In any case, so many Jews went off the path in Europe during the Haskala, that it would be hard to make an argument that ANYTHING kept Jews Jewish since so many left and such a small number remained committed.   It's much easier to hypothesize about what things possibly caused (or were the primary cause) for Jews to abandon Judaism in those times.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I'm no expert on history but I'm going to bet that Josephus didn't write this about reincarnation.  He probably DID write that the Pharisees and Essenes believed in resurrection of the dead, and that the Sadducees did not, because this is true.

 

Yes, that would make sense! 


Ephraim, do you realize that you are conflating two totally different things?  Once again, I think this simply stems from your unfamiliarity with what Judaism actually teaches.   While I don't expect you to be an expert on Judaism, the point I have been trying to make is that it is unreasonable for you to expect us to believe in (or to be beholden to!) concepts which are not taught by Judaism.

[muman613]

I do not agree that these are 'non-Jewish' ideas... I reject that completely. There is no way that non-Jewish ideas would enter into Jewish belief, especially by those Rabbis during the period when Chassidus began.

Kabbalah was known by Rabbis long before Chassidus appeared on the map of Jewish history. These ideas were discussed by various Rabbis through the ages. While I respect the Sadia Gaon on many topics I respectfully disagree with what he says concerning this topic. And as is the case with much of Jewish thought, there are differences in opinions.