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Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« on: August 07, 2013, 09:49:39 PM »
Has the era of the kosher cheeseburger arrived?

By Talia Lavin

August 7, 2013 4:44pm   

NEW YORK (JTA) — When the world’s first lab-grown burger was introduced and taste-tested on Monday, the event seemed full of promise for environmentalists, animal lovers and vegetarians.

Another group that had good reason to be excited? Kosher consumers.

The burger was created by harvesting stem cells from a portion of cow shoulder muscle that were multiplied in petri dishes to form tiny strips of muscle fiber. About 20,000 of the strips were needed to create the five-ounce burger, which was financed partially by Google founder Sergey Brin and unveiled by Mark Post of Maastricht University in the Netherlands.

PETA hailed the event as a “first step” toward humanely producing meat products. A University of Amsterdam study shows that lab-grown meat could significantly reduce the environmental impact of beef production.

For kosher-observant Jews, the “cultured” burgers could open the door to radical dietary changes — namely, the birth of the kosher cheeseburger.

That’s because meat produced through this process could be considered parve – neither meat nor dairy — according to Rabbi Menachem Genack, CEO of the Orthodox Union’s kosher division. Thus under traditional Jewish law, the burger could be paired with dairy products.

Several key conditions would have to be met to create kosher, parve cultured beef. The tissue samples would have to come from an animal that had been slaughtered according to kosher rules, not from a biopsy from a live animal, Genack said.

The principle underlying this theory is much like the status of gelatin in Jewish law: Though it is derived from an animal, it is not meat (the OU certifies some bovine-derived gelatin as parve).

Genack noted another source for viewing cultured meat as parve: a 19th century Vilna-born scholar known as the Heshek Shlomo wrote that the meat of an animal conjured up in a magical incantation could be considered parve. It may not be too much of a stretch, then, to apply the same logic to modern genetic wizardry.

But kosher chefs aren’t heating up the parve griddles just yet.

The lab-born burger, which cost $325,000 and took two years to make, is still a long way from market viability, kosher or otherwise. If mass produced, it could still cost $30 per pound, researchers said.

“I’ll believe it when I see it,” said Jeff Nathan, the executive chef at Abigael’s on Broadway, a kosher restaurant in Manhattan. “Until it’s in my hands and I can touch it, smell it and taste it, I don’t believe it.”

Even if cultured beef became commonplace, consumers still might not be interested, said Elie Rosenfeld, a spokesman for Empire Kosher, the nation’s largest kosher poultry producer.

“Parve burgers made of tofu and vegetables have been on the market for years,” Rosenfeld said. “But customers are still looking for the real deal, a product that’s wholesome and genuine.”

Nevertheless, Nathan sounded an enthusiastic note about the potential for parve meat.

“I’m all for experimentation and science,” he said. “Let’s see what it tastes like!”


Offline muman613

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2013, 09:55:46 PM »
Wouldn't it look like a normal burger thus invoking the problem of 'Appearance of Transgression'/Marit Ayin?

http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/kahn/archives/shoftim69.htm

Quote

Appearance of transgression prohibited

This is why the Halachic authorities often prohibit particular acts since they may appear to others as a transgression of a Torah commandment. There is a dual reason for this. First of all, a person should not put himself into a situation where others would suspect that he is doing something wrong. Secondly, we should always keep in mind that whatever we do others will take example from and may emulate what they think we are doing. In this way, the Torah educates us to be responsible, not only for our own personal acts, but also for our influence on others.

http://ohr.jle.org.uk/ask/ask029.htm

Quote
Now on to your question. The Talmud teaches that the prohibition against mixing meat and milk applies only to the meat and milk of a kosher species of animal. Therefore, mother's milk is "pareve" (neither dairy nor meaty).

Nevertheless, the Shulchan Aruch rules that it is forbidden to cook meat with mother's milk because it looks like you are cooking with cow's milk ("Marit Ayin -- it "looks" bad). This prohibition is of Rabbinic origin. It was enacted because people might make a mistake and assume that you used cow's milk in your recipe.

Rav Moshe Isserlis states that if you use almond milk together with meat, which is not Biblically forbidden, you must place some almonds nearby so that people will know that it is in fact almond milk. Again the concern is about "Marit Ayin". Following this line of reasoning, many halachic authorities require that when using a non-dairy creamer at a meat meal, one should also display the container of the creamer so that everyone can see that it is in fact non-dairy.

Sources:

The Talmud - Tractate Chullin 113a.
The Shulchan Aruch - Yoreh Deah 57:4.
Rav Moshe Isserlis - Yoreh Deah 57:3.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2013, 10:01:56 PM »
Another case of Marit Ayin...



http://ohr.jle.org.uk/2247

If someone was caught in a downpour on Shabbat or otherwise got his clothes wet, may he hang them up to dry?

One opinion of the Sages is that he may do so as long as the wet garments are not visible to the public. The reason is that people who see these wet clothes hanging may suspect him of having violated the Sabbath by washing his clothes. Rabbi Elazar and Rabbi Shimon, however, rule that it is forbidden to do so regardless of where he hangs them. Their position is that once the Sages have issued a decree forbidding something because of marit ayin suspicion of sin the decree is binding even when circumstances render such suspicion highly unlikely but not impossible.

The Sage Rav ruled in accordance with the second position. His ruling was challenged by some commentaries from a gemara in Mesechta Chullin (41a). There we learn that it is forbidden to slaughter an animal or fowl in a manner which causes its blood to fall into a hole because this is the way of the heretics. This ban applies only to the public area and not to a private courtyard.

Although this seems to go against Ravs position that something prohibited in a public area because of marit ayin applies to a private area as well, Tosefot points out that there is a difference. Even if someone would see a slaughter taking place in the private courtyard he would not suspect wrongdoing but would assume that it was being done in that manner in order to keep the area from becoming stained with blood. The position of Rav forms the ruling of the Shulchan Aruch (Orach Chaim 301:45).

Shabbat 65a
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2013, 10:02:55 PM »
I wouldn't eat it because it's goyish and disgusts me anyway. Plus Marit Ayin. I wouldn't eat a soy burger with cheese either. I wouldn't eat a real beef one with soy cheese either or a soy burger with soy cheese. I think it's disgusting to eat a cheese sandwich. When I was younger, I didn't like cheese at all. If I eat cheese, it's usually cooked such as on pizza. Sometimes if there is a salad with cheese such as Greek salad, I would eat that also.

On the positive side, at least if I ate pareve meat, I wouldn't have to wait 6 hours to eat ice cream later on or other dairy. Or even at the same meal but not together. It's like you can eat dairy utensil pareve food in the same meal as meat but not with the same plate or fork.


Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2013, 10:05:33 PM »
The issue of marit ayin was brought up when pareve creamers were given with coffee at catered events. Now everyone knows that pareve creamers exist so it's not an issue anymore.


Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2013, 10:09:29 PM »
I have not read anything above, but anyway. To me this go's against HaShem. What are they using to grow the muscle fibers? To me this is like crossing a orange with an apple, which is forbidden. I think...
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline muman613

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2013, 10:11:52 PM »
I have not read anything above, but anyway. To me this go's against HaShem. What are they using to grow the muscle fibers? To me this is like crossing a orange with an apple, which is forbidden. I think...

Interesting question. But I think they are not mixing anything with the stem cell fibers... I don't know all the details but I think that this question will be addressed by the Rabbis when the issue becomes more clear.

I think the forbidden mixtures are only referring to fibers though (The commandment of Shatnez) and the commands concerning working two dissimilar animals together in the field.

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/704643/jewish/Forbidden-Mixtures.htm

Quote
You may not sow your vineyard with a mixture of seeds, for then the [seeds'] growth and even the seed that you planted together with the [fruit] yield of the vineyard will become forbidden.

You may not plow with an ox and a donkey together.

You may not wear shatnez, [which is] wool and linen together.


-- Devarim 22:9-11

Classic Questions

Why may one not plow with an ox and a donkey? (v. 10)

Ramban: Because it would lead to the further prohibition of crossbreeding species (Vayikra 19:19). For the farmer will house the ox and the donkey together, and they will breed with each other.

To what extent may wool and linen not be mixed? (v. 11)

Rashi: If wool and linen are combed together, and spun into thread, and woven together into cloth, then it is Biblically forbidden [to wear a garment that is made from this cloth] (as quoted in Tur, Yoreh De'ah ch. 300).

Rabeinu Tam: Woolen thread and linen thread that were prepared separately will become Biblically prohibited if they are woven together as one cloth (Tosfos ibid.).

Rambam: When wool and linen are bound together in any way whatsoever, the product is prohibited by the Torah (Laws of Forbidden Mixtures 10:2).
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2013, 10:14:47 PM »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2013, 10:15:17 PM »
Interesting question. But I think they are not mixing anything with the stem cell fibers... I don't know all the details but I think that this question will be addressed by the Rabbis when the issue becomes more clear.

I think the forbidden mixtures are only referring to fibers though (The commandment of Shatnez) and the commands concerning working two dissimilar animals together in the field.


Grapes and wheat are forbiden to grow together. On Rosh Chodesh Adar, they would come inspect the vineyards to make sure no wheat was growing. I think with hybrid produce like certain fruits and vegetables (not grains such as wheat), the prohibition is making it but if a Non-Jew grew it, it would be permitted for a Jew to eat. Or maybe forbidden to make but permitted no matter who grew it.


Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2013, 10:34:42 PM »
All the things about the life of the animal can be thrown out of the window then.
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Offline edu

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2013, 03:48:53 AM »
The following is an excerpt from the Soncino translation of the Talmud, tractate Chullin 109b
Quote
Yaltha  once said to R. Nahman: ‘Observe, for everything that the Divine Law has forbidden us it
has permitted us an equivalent:
The Talmud then provides several examples of this principle which I will skip for now, because we have a mixed audience.
On the same page of the Talmud Yaltha then asks R. Nahman
Quote
I wish to eat flesh in milk, [where is its equivalent?]’
Thereupon R. Nahman said to the butchers, ‘Give her roasted Udders’.{16} But have we not learnt,
[THE UDDER] MUST BE CUT OPEN? — That is only when [it is to be cooked] in a pot.{17} But
does it not state [in the Baraitha above]. ‘If [the udder was] cooked’,{18} which implies that only after the act it is permitted but not in the first instance?{19} — Indeed, it is even permitted in the first instance, but only because [the Tanna of the cited Baraitha] desired to state the second clause viz., If the stomach was cooked with its milk it is forbidden, in which case it is not permitted even after the act, he stated in the first clause too ‘if it was cooked’.
Footnotes
(16) Lit., ‘give her udders on the spit’. i.e., roasted (Rashi). According to Aruch: ‘Feed her with well-filled udders’.
(17) R. Nahman apparently accepts the view stated in the second version of Rab supra. that the udder is forbidden if
cooked without having been cut open.
(18) The expression ‘cooked’, בשל, in the Baraitha is to be interpreted as roasted and not cooked in a Pot. Cf. the same
expression in II Chron. XXXV, 13: And they cooked the passover.
(19) How then did R. Nahman permit his wife {Yaltha} to eat the udder roasted, and in the first instance too?
_______________
From the above it would appear that it is okay to look for the kosher equivalents of forbidden milk and meat.

Offline Sveta

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2013, 04:01:31 AM »
I saw in a post above about "Appearance of transgression prohibited"
There is a place in LA called "Mexikosher" and while it is Kosher supervises, they serve "cheeseburgers" which is beef on some parve buns but with parve SOY cheese.

So, this would not be ok to eat? Technically it would be ok but due to the appearance, it should not be eaten?



Offline muman613

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2013, 04:02:55 AM »
I saw in a post above about "Appearance of transgression prohibited"
There is a place in LA called "Mexikosher" and while it is Kosher supervises, they serve "cheeseburgers" which is beef on some parve buns but with parve SOY cheese.

So, this would not be ok to eat? Technically it would be ok but due to the appearance, it should not be eaten?

I am not an expert but I believe I heard that as long as everyone knows that the 'cheeseburger' at that restaurant is truly kosher, then there is no transgression of Mirat Ayin.

It is my belief that it is the possibility that another Jew will see you eating it and either think you are transgressing, or it may lead others to transgress. If everyone knows that that particular restaurant is Kosher then, as I said I don't believe it is a problem.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2013, 09:08:54 PM »
No issue of Marit Ayin. If their is a possibility of explanation then their is no issue. Thus in this case it is known that their is parve cheese and such soo definitely not Marit Ayin.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2013, 09:16:04 PM »
Please everyone never ever eat soy.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2013, 10:06:09 PM »
Please everyone never ever eat soy.


Why? Are you gluten intolerant? There are things with soy that are not imitation, like soy beans and soy sauce.


Offline Sveta

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2013, 10:23:02 PM »
I just saw a soy "bacon" at the store. It said it was parve. It wasn't at a kosher market either but a regular grocery store in the vegetarian section. Let's say that the gentiles at the store see a Jewish person buying this fake "bacon"...that is when we would say not to buy it, right?

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2013, 11:06:28 PM »
Can they make glatt kosher moose in the laboratory?

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2013, 11:24:15 PM »
I just saw a soy "bacon" at the store. It said it was parve. It wasn't at a kosher market either but a regular grocery store in the vegetarian section. Let's say that the gentiles at the store see a Jewish person buying this fake "bacon"...that is when we would say not to buy it, right?
What about turkey bacon? I have been only eating deer and turkey bacon...
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2013, 11:30:28 PM »
I just saw a soy "bacon" at the store. It said it was parve. It wasn't at a kosher market either but a regular grocery store in the vegetarian section. Let's say that the gentiles at the store see a Jewish person buying this fake "bacon"...that is when we would say not to buy it, right?

 I dont think soo. (Meaning I think it wouldn't be a problem) I see Kosher "bacon" sold at a (totally) Glatt Kosher supermarket. Soo I assume both would be no issue. We live in society where these things are known. Marit Ayin doesn't apply to these situations. And one need not say well perhaps this person will think this or another person will think that because with this the situations would be endless and these are not defined as Marit Ayin (as opposed to some being overly obsessed with not appearing to look ban in and possible way which is no way to live being at the mentality of being constantly scrutinized).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Sveta

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2013, 11:32:25 PM »
Can they make glatt kosher moose in the laboratory?

Are you serious? What does that even mean?

Offline Sveta

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2013, 11:39:03 PM »
I dont think soo. (Meaning I think it wouldn't be a problem) I see Kosher "bacon" sold at a (totally) Glatt Kosher supermarket. Soo I assume both would be no issue. We live in society where these things are known. Marit Ayin doesn't apply to these situations. And one need not say well perhaps this person will think this or another person will think that because with this the situations would be endless and these are not defined as Marit Ayin (as opposed to some being overly obsessed with not appearing to look ban in and possible way which is no way to live being at the mentality of being constantly scrutinized).

Thank you.

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2013, 11:41:55 PM »
It's the same with kosher bacon and kosher pepperoni. Bacon and pepperoni are not animals. It's the style in which the meat of the animal is prepared. There is no reason why you can't make it from kosher meat. But words like turkey ham are crazy though because ham is a known part of a pig.

I've eaten beef fry but it's not good to fry. It's just all fat and will make the frying pan give off smoke. It's better to be eaten as a cold cut since it's fully cooked anyway (Not like pork bacon.).

I've also eaten imitation shrimp and imitation crab. It's made from kosher fish.


Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2013, 11:47:57 PM »
Try Japanese bacon

The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Sveta

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2013, 11:48:47 PM »
LKZ.....now I am just depressed.  :'(