Author Topic: Avraham's relationship with Yitzahk  (Read 1633 times)

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Offline Dr. Dan

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Avraham's relationship with Yitzahk
« on: October 14, 2013, 09:17:50 AM »
I asked this question on next week's JTF questions, but was wondering what my fellow JTF Jewish scholars thought of this.

So after Sarah passes away and after the bind of Isaac, it seems that the relationship between father and son are strained.  Avraham returns to Hagar as well.  Is it me or did this actually happen?  Any wise Jewish explanations about this?
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Offline muman613

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Re: Avraham's relationship with Yitzahk
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2013, 03:15:12 PM »
I asked this question on next week's JTF questions, but was wondering what my fellow JTF Jewish scholars thought of this.

So after Sarah passes away and after the bind of Isaac, it seems that the relationship between father and son are strained.  Avraham returns to Hagar as well.  Is it me or did this actually happen?  Any wise Jewish explanations about this?

I am not sure what you are talking about 'relation is strained'... There is not much mentioned about that period in 'Chai Sarah' (the portion where Sarah dies).

Indeed Abraham took Hagar as a wife after Sarahs passing, but she has a new name 'Keturah'...

Here is the explanation from Chabad.org:

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http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/2636/jewish/The-Return-of-Hagar.htm

And Abraham again took a wife, and her name was Keturah
Genesis 25:1

Keturah is Hagar. Why is she called Keturah? For her deeds were [now] as pleasing as the ketoret.
Midrash Rabbah on verse

Hagar was the Egyptian maidservant of Abraham's first wife, Sarah. When Sarah had failed to conceive a child after many years of marriage, she implored Abraham to have a child with Hagar. Hagar did give Abraham a child, Ishmael, who turned out "a wild man, whose hand is against everyone and everyone's hand is against him" (Genesis 16:12). Sarah then demanded of Abraham that he banish Hagar and Ishmael from their home. When Abraham hesitated, G-d instructed him, "whatever Sarah tells you to do, hearken to her voice." Hagar drifted back to the paganism of her homeland, and found an Egyptian wife for Ishmael.

Years later, however, we find Ishmael back in the Abrahamic fold, accompanying Abraham and Isaac to the akeidah. And then, three years after Sarah's death, Abraham remarries Hagar. The reconciliation is now complete--indeed it is Sarah's son, Isaac, who brings Hagar back for her marriage with his father (as per Midrash Rabbah on Genesis 24:62).

"Everything that happened to the Patriarchs," say our sages, "is a signpost for their children. This is why the Torah elaborates on... the events of their lives... for they all come to instruct the future" (Nachmanides on Genesis 12:6). The same is true regarding the shifts in Abraham's relationship with his "barbarous" wife and son: his expulsion of Hagar and Ishmael and their subsequent readmission into his family represent the different stages in our history of dealing with the "Hagars" and "Ishmaels" in our lives--the raw and unruly elements in our nature, society and environment.

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Thus it was Sarah, the female half of Abraham's soul, who effected the expulsion of Hagar and Ishmael. When Abraham hesitated, loath to relinquish the potent potentials implicit in his pagan mate and wild son, G-d said to him: "whatever Sarah tells you to do, hearken to her voice." True, you are now Abraham, father of multitudes and elevator of the mundane, but in every refinement process there is the extractable ore and the unprofitable rubble. Hagar and Ishmael represent elements of My creation too crude, too volatile, to be redeemed by your efforts. Sarah, your feminine sense of differentiation, has rejected them--do as she says.

However, Abraham's life includes a post-Sarah era as well--an era in which the most savage of Ishmaels and the most foreign of Hagars have a place in Abraham's family. (Thus Hagar is here called "Keturah," connoting the fact that "her deeds were as pleasing as the ketoret"; for the ketoret, too, represents the transformation of the "irredeemable" elements of creation into a vessel of holiness). This era in Abraham's life is the forerunner and prototype for the age of sublimation, when "no longer will your Master be cloaked; your eyes shall see your Master" (Isaiah 30:20)--when the divine essence of creation will no longer be shrouded in a mantle of corporeality and the positive utility of every creature will be manifest and accessible.

When Abraham died both Ishmael and Yitzak bury him...

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http://www.oztorah.com/2008/11/the-second-son-chayyei-sarah/

Abraham’s other son, Ishmael, is far from being regarded as a tzaddik by our rabbinic tradition. Isaac is the favourite son, and it is through him that Abraham’s teachings are to be maintained (Gen. 21:12). Abraham tried to bring up Ishmael properly but the boy remained a pereh adam, rough and ready, and became a skilled archer; his ways were such that God warned the patriarch, according to the sages, that this son would cause suffering to his brother (Gen. R. 45:11).
Ishmael married a wife of whom Abraham disapproved, but eventually he understood his father’s views, sent this wife away and married another woman of better character. This and other facts which the rabbis read into the story led to the conclusion that Ishmael was on the way to becoming a ba’al t’shuvah, a penitent. The Talmud says that so genuine was the son’s penitence that he returned to Canaan and lived with his father (Bava Batra 16a).

When Abraham died, the Torah says, “And Isaac and Ishmael his sons buried him” (Gen. 20:9). Superficially, of course, this verse suggests co-operation between the sons, but there is more to it than that. Look at the order in which the sons are named, Isaac before Ishmael. Isaac was in fact the younger son, and in the days when both were young Ishmael taunted Isaac, according to the rabbis, insisting that as he was older he was more important and it was he who would inherit most of their father’s possessions (Gen. R. 53:15).

What had now happened was that the aggressiveness had gone out of Ishmael and he no longer had a need to push himself forward and aggrandise his own status. In letting Isaac go first and recognising that this was God’s wish, Ishmael showed he had learned derech eretz and reverence for God. This must surely be seen as a sign of t’shuvah.

See also : http://rabbibuchwald.njop.org/2005/11/21/chayei-sara-5766-2005/
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Avraham's relationship with Yitzahk
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2013, 04:07:10 PM »
If Ishmael did Tshuva, then why are his descendants they way they are?

Or was Ishamel's Tshuva just a personal thing that was never taught to his children and so on and so forth?

As far as strained relations...after the binding of Isaac, we don't hear much about any conversations between Avraham and him.  Why did Avraham send Eliezer to find Rebecca and not Avraham himself?  After Sarah's death and the bind of Isaac, there seems to be a disconnect between father and son.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline muman613

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Re: Avraham's relationship with Yitzahk
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2013, 04:10:16 PM »
If Ishmael did Tshuva, then why are his descendants they way they are?

Or was Ishamel's Tshuva just a personal thing that was never taught to his children and so on and so forth?

As far as strained relations...after the binding of Isaac, we don't hear much about any conversations between Avraham and him.  Why did Avraham send Eliezer to find Rebecca and not Avraham himself?  After Sarah's death and the bind of Isaac, there seems to be a disconnect between father and son.

Yes Dr Dan, according to the oral tradition Ishmael did teshuva... Though his descendants continued in their fathers immoral path. The Torah calls the descendants of Ishmael 'Donkey Men' who will constantly quarrel and fight with their neighbors. In this respect the descendants of Ishmael fulfill the Torahs description of them.

As to why Avraham sent Eliezer to find a wife for Yitzak... I will seek an answer to this because I am not sure at this time...

Let me add that I have heard it said that Sarah may have died as a result of hearing of the Akeidah... She had a vision of Yitzak dead and died immediately of shock...


You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Avraham's relationship with Yitzahk
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2013, 04:13:13 PM »
We are discussing the happenings of the portion which we read in 2 weeks 'Chayei Sarah'...

http://www.torah.org/learning/perceptions/5759/chayeisarah.html

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Parshas Chayei Sarah
Caving In to Truth
By Rabbi Pinchas Winston

FRIDAY NIGHT:

The life of Sarah was 127 years-[thus were] the years of Sarah's life. Sarah died in Kiryat Arbah, which is Chevron, in the land of Canaan. (Bereishis 23:1-2)

Though the Torah doesn't mention it, we know from the Midrash that it was the Akeidah that caused Sarah to die:

"Avraham came ..." From where did he come? From Be'er Sheva. If you will ask, who brought Sarah to Chevron, I heard that the Satan came and said to her, "Where is Yitzchak?" She answered him, "To learn about offering sacrifices." He told her, "He is the sacrifice!" She didn't believe him, so she went to Achiman, Shaishi, and Talmi, and said, "You are tall and can see from a distance. See if there is an older man and two youths." They told her, "We see an old man and he is binding one young man, and there is a knife in his hand!" Immediately she died. (Yalkut Reuvani in the name of the Zohar)

Perhaps this is alluded to in the first word of the parshah, vayeheyu, which adds up to thirty-seven (vav, yud, heh, yud, vav: 6+10+5+10+6), the age at which Yitzchak underwent the Akeidah.

The truth is, Sarah wasn't the only one to die that day because of the Akeidah--Yitzchak also died. According to the Midrash (Midrash HaGadol 22:12), the moment Avraham put the knife to Yitzchak's neck, his soul left him; it only returned to him after G-d told Avraham not to lay his hands on the lad.

However, as the Ohr HaChaim points out in last week's parshah (22:20), Yitzchak did not get back the same soul he lost, for, before the Akeidah, his soul had been feminine (coming from Chava; Chidah, Seder HaDoros), whereas after the Akeidah, his soul was masculine, which is what made it possible for him to later father children. That is why the parshah ends with the account of Rivkah's birth, as if to say, now, after the Akeidah, Yitzchak can marry and have progeny.

What makes this interesting is that the source of Sarah's soul had also been Chava (Chidah, Seder HaDoros). It is as if Chava's soul was somehow rectified and returned to its source because of the Akeidah, as if the Akeidah was a rite of passage for the soul. However, the very fact that Rivkah was born at this precise time (Seder Olam 1), and that she continued on the blessings that were the hallmark of Sarah's life (which represented rectification for Chava's sin; see Perceptions, Chaye Sarah, 5758, Shabbos Day), indicates that the loss of Yitzchak's portion of Chava's soul, and the loss of Sarah's portion, made possible the birth of Rivkah and the unification of the soul within one person.

So, though on the surface Sarah's death may seem disturbing, below the surface, her death represented an important turning point in history. It is another proof of the mysterious hand of G-d orchestrating to precision the fulfillment of His master plan--the Truth behind the

See also : http://www.torah.org/learning/ravfrand/5770/chayeisarah.html

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Our parshios, the Nesivos Shalom explains, contain a classic example of Avraham Avinu facing the Satan in front of him in Parshas Vayera and then confronting the Satan in back of him in Parshas Chayei Sarah. The Satan behind him is, as Rashi says (based on the Medrash), that Sarah died suddenly out of the shock of hearing that her son Yitzchak was almost slaughtered. This scenario was an act of the Satan. Sarah was supposed to die in any event, no matter what happened. But the Satan arranged that someone would come to her door and tell her about the Akeida and just at that moment, she would die. Everyone, including Avraham, could come to the false conclusion and say "This is what I get for the Akeida?"

The Satan knows that she would have died at that time regardless of whether or not the Akeida took place. It was not the news of the Akeida that killed her, it was G-d's having said that these are the days of her years. Her time was up. That is why, says the Slonimer Rebbe, the Torah writes "one hundred years and twenty years and seven years." This is why the Torah spells out the age of her death – so that we should not for a minute think that she died prematurely because of the Akeidah. That is why the Torah reiterates "the years of the life of Sarah". When Sarah was born, she was given a certain amount of years and a certain amount of days and on a specific day and in a specific place and a specific time she was destined to die.

Many times we have an elderly parent living with one child and then they decide to move the parent to another child and then the parent dies. There are typically all sorts of guilty feelings. 'If this, if that', etc. No! Everyone has their time and place where they are going to die.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: Avraham's relationship with Yitzahk
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2013, 05:53:58 PM »
As far as strained relations...after the binding of Isaac, we don't hear much about any conversations between Avraham and him.


We don't really hear conversation between them before the Akeidah either. He was a baby. Almost immediately is the story of the Akeidah almost 40 years later.


Offline muman613

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Re: Avraham's relationship with Yitzahk
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2013, 06:02:27 PM »
According to the midrash I have heard Yitzak really wanted to be sacrificed. He was 37 years old at the time, an adult, and he willingly allowed himself to be bound up for the slaughter.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Avraham's relationship with Yitzahk
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2013, 06:05:18 PM »
I suppose one reason Abraham and Isaac do not converse is because Abraham sent Isaac to study Torah with Shem and Eber's Yeshiva...

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/112357/jewish/Isaac-Our-Father.htm

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After the "Akedah" happily turned out to be only a test of their faith in G-d and of their obedience to His commands, Abraham immediately sent his son Isaac to Shem, Noah's son, to learn G-dly wisdom from the man who himself witnessed the Flood and was saved in his father's Ark. Abraham returned home without Isaac, to find that his wife Sarah had passed away, at the age of 127 years. Abraham mourned the death of his wife and buried her in the Cave of Machpelah which he had bought from Ephron the Hittite prince.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Avraham's relationship with Yitzahk
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2013, 06:06:50 PM »
http://www.torah.org/learning/beyond-pshat/5765/chayeisarah.html

1. Yitzchak's Dimension As Patriarch

The Torah states, "Now Avraham was old, well on in years, and Hashem had blessed Avraham with everything (ba'kol)." Rashi cites Chazal who explain that "ba'kol" alludes to Yitzchak. "The numerical value of "ba'kol- everything" is equivalent to "ben (son)." [The numerical value of the letter "bais" is 2 and the numerical value of the letter "nun" is 50 - which is the same numerical value of the letters of ba'kol.] Chazal continue, "Now that Avraham had a son, he needed to find him the proper wife." G'd had already blessed Avraham. Why at, this moment, does the Torah reveal to us that G'd blessed Avraham "ba'kol - everything?" - which alludes to Yitzchak.

One may say that after the Akeidah, when Yitchak did not resist being offered as a sacrifice, Avraham realized that his son was unique and special. Although he was 37 years old at the time of the Akeidah, Yitchak was willing to give his life for G'd. Thus, G'd blessed Avraham "ba'kol" (alluding to Yitzchak), indicating how special he was. However, at this time Yitzchak was 40 years old and the Akeidah had already taken place three years earlier. Why does the Torah now reveal how special Yitzchak truly was?

It is interesting to note that at the end of the Portion of Bereishis, regarding the birth of Noach, the Torah states, "Lamech lived one hundred and eighty-two years, and he begot a son (vayoled ben)." Rashi cites Chazal who explain, "The Torah states he begot a ben (son) to allude to the fact that the future world (post Great Flood) shall be built from him (Noach). This is because the word "ben" is derived from the word "binyan - structure." Noach was the future of existence because all life perished in the Great Flood. Thus the Torah alludes to the uniqueness of Noach by using the expression ben (son). Similarly, the Torah alludes to the uniqueness and special status of Yitzchak through the expression of "ba'kol" which also connotes "ben/structure/son."

When Avraham instructed Eliezer to locate a proper wife for Yitzchak, he bound him with an oath that had the most severe ramifications and consequences if it should be violated. If he would not abide meticulously to every aspect of Avraham's instructions, Eliezer would forfeit his share in this world and the world to come. Eliezer was the dedicated servant of Avraham. He was the administrator of all of Avraham's assets and household. Chazal tell us that Avraham had taught Eliezer all the Torah that he had learned. He was at such an advanced spiritual level that he radiated with a similar holiness as that of his master and mentor. He had proven his worthiness many times. Chazal explain that when Avraham went to battle against the four mightiest kings, he took with him 318 men, which in truth was only Eliezer. Numerically, the letters of the name "Eliezer" are the equivalent of 318. Despite the fact that Eliezer was of great spiritual dimension, Avraham was concerned that even after instructing him he might deviate and not carry out his wishes as prescribed. Why was Avraham suspicious of Eliezer regarding the issue of locating a wife for his son, Yitzchak?
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Avraham's relationship with Yitzahk
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2013, 06:21:19 PM »
From Eliezer we learn that a 'Shliach' or an emissary who is sent by a master has the same legal rights as the one who sent him.

http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/1088/jewish/The-Emissaries.htm

Shaliach -- the word means "agent" and "emissary" -- is a halachic (Torah-legal) term for a person empowered by someone else to act in his stead. The shaliach first appears in the Torah in the person of Eliezer, whom Abraham commissioned to find a wife for his son, Isaac. Rebecca was selected and betrothed as a wife for Isaac by Eliezer -- she was legally Isaac's wife without her actual husband having ever set eyes on her or having exchanged a single word with her. In the words of the Talmud, "A person's shaliach is as he himself."

There exists a halachic model (the eved or "slave") for one who has abnegated his will, personality and very identity to that of his "master." There also exists the model of the "employee" (sachir), who assumes the obligation to perform a certain task for someone else, but whose personality and identity remain separate and distinct from the personality and identity of his "employer." The shaliach is unique in that he or she retains a great degree of autonomy in carrying out his mission, yet at the same time becomes a virtual extension of the person who commissioned him (the meshaleiach).

The shaliach does not abnegate his intellect, will, desires, feelings, talents and personal "style" to that of the one whom he represents; rather, he enlists them in the fulfillment of his mission. The result of this is not a lesser bond between the two, but the contrary: the meshaleiach is acting through the whole of the shaliach -- not only through the shaliach's physical actions, but also through the shaliach's personality, which has become an extension of the meshaleiach's personality.

The Rebbe took the halachic concept of shelichut and transformed it into a calling and a way of life. In the five decades of his leadership, he recruited, trained, motivated and commissioned thousands of men, women and children to act as his personal representatives and emissaries in hundreds of communities throughout the world.
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You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Avraham's relationship with Yitzahk
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2013, 07:12:25 PM »
Why Avraham sent Eliezer? Perhaps a couple of reasons. 1) It was outside of Israel while he was himself in Israel. He told him to get from the place where he came from (Iraq region) and not in Canaan which is cursed.
  - He was bissy with things he was doing everyday, including bringing people to monotheism and ethics. This would constrain his time.
 - G-D told him to leave his land, his birthplace etc. perhaps this is also a lesson for Baal Teshuvas to completely leave the "place" they are coming from and not to return to that place.
 -  Avraham told Eliezer to look for certain signs on the young lady to marry his son off. To them Eliezer was a stranger, they didn't know who this was. Had Avraham gone himself perhaps people would see him and treat him differently. Avraham wanted someone with good midot and someone with good midot to all even strangers to marry his son Yitzhak and thus be the mother of Am Yisrael. Had he gone himself he could has jeopardized this fact.
 - At some time beforehand they threw Avraham into the furnace and thus wanted to get him killed, maybe they would do similarly had they seen him again.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Avraham's relationship with Yitzahk
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2013, 07:28:45 PM »
Rabbi Buchwald expounds on why Eliezer was sent without Yitzak (because Yitzak was not to leave the promised land)...

http://rabbibuchwald.njop.org/2012/11/05/chayei-sarah-5773-2012/
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Avraham's relationship with Yitzahk
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2013, 07:31:38 PM »
The question I have on Tag's 3rd point is a story I heard concerning the fact that Eliezer had facial qualities which caused him to resemble Abrahams image...

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http://www.torah.org/learning/beyond-pshat/5763/chayeisarah.html

The Torah states, "And Avraham said to his servant (Eliezer), the elder of his household who controlled all that was his: "Place now your hand under my thigh. And I will have you swear by Hashem, G-d of heaven and G-d of earth, that you not take a wife for my son from the Canaanites, among who I dwell." Avraham gave specific instructions to his dedicated servant Eliezer to find a wife for Yitzchak. Avraham made Eliezer swear not to deviate from the qualifications that he set forth. If Eliezer would have violated the oath, he would forfeit his share both in the physical and spiritual world.

Avraham trusted his faithful servant Eliezer to administer all of his affairs - both financial and spiritual. Eliezer disseminated Torah as his master had. The Torah refers to Eliezer as "the elder (zikan) of his household". The Midrash explains that the word "zikan" indicates that the facial features of Eliezer resembled his master Avraham. (Just as we find regarding Yosef who was referred to as "Ben Zikunim" - which is interpreted to mean that Yosef looked identical to his father Yaakov). The Talmud in Tractate Yomah tells us that Avraham taught Eliezer all of the Torah that he knew. Although Eliezer pedigree was Canaanite, he nevertheless was spiritualized through the teachings of Avraham to such a degree that he radiated the holiness of his master Avraham. The Midrash tells us that when Eliezer approached the house of Besuel, to negotiate the hand of Rivka (Rebecca) - on behalf of Yitzchak- they mistakenly believed that Eliezer was the master Avraham. The Yalkut explains the word "Mosheil- dominate" that is stated regarding Eliezer means that he controlled his Evil inclination to the same degree as his master Avraham did. If this is the case why was Avraham so mistrusting of Eliezer that he had to subject him to such a serious oath?
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Avraham's relationship with Yitzahk
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2013, 08:07:37 PM »
The question I have on Tag's 3rd point is a story I heard concerning the fact that Eliezer had facial qualities which caused him to resemble Abrahams image...

 Which point exactly? (ooh I see , its the 4th though).

 Avraham told Eliezer.......

 I dont think the image you mentioned is literal. Cannot be. Eliezer was more likely black, I think he was from Ham, also either Cananni or from Nimrod (also from Ham).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Avraham's relationship with Yitzahk
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2013, 09:18:53 PM »
Which point exactly? (ooh I see , its the 4th though).

 Avraham told Eliezer.......

 I dont think the image you mentioned is literal. Cannot be. Eliezer was more likely black, I think he was from Ham, also either Cananni or from Nimrod (also from Ham).

Yes, I understand that Eliezer was a descendant of Cham. There is the aspect of the story where Eliezer desired his daughter to marry Yitzak but Abraham said that a child of the cursed cannot marry the child of the blessed...

But it is also written that when Eliezer first met Rebeccas family they addressed him as if he was Abraham.

Gen 24:31. And he said, "Come, you who are blessed of the Lord. Why should you stand outside, when I have cleared the house, and a place for the camels?"

There are other explanations of this also...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Avraham's relationship with Yitzahk
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2013, 09:21:21 PM »
http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/chrysler/archives/chayei68.htm

HIGHLIGHTS FROM TARGUM YONASAN

"And Lavan mistook him (Eliezer) for Avraham, and he said 'Come, the one who is blessed by Hashem! Why do you stand outside, when I have cleared the house of Avodah-Zarah and prepared a place for the camels' " (24:31).



There Are Cana'anim and There Are Cana'anim
"Perhaps (Ulai) the woman will not want to follow me … ?" (24:39).

The word "Ulai", Rashi explains, is written without a 'Vav', meaning 'to me', a hint that Eliezer had a daughter whom he had hoped would marry Yitzchak, but Avraham pointed out to him that his son was blessed, whilst he (and his daughter) were cursed, and the two were not fit for each other.

But how can that be, asks the Da'as Zekeinim M.T.? Rashi himself cites the Medrash which explains that if the girl refused to accompany him back to Cana'an, then he should take a wife for Yitzchak from the daughters of Aner, Eshkol and Mamrei, who were Cana'anim, just like his daughter was?

And he answers a. that the curse of Cana'an had taken effect with regard to him, which was not the case with regard to the daughters of Aner, Eshkol and Mamrei, and b. Eliezer, according to the Medrash Rabah, was actually the son of Cana'an, making the curse that much more potent in his case.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Avraham's relationship with Yitzahk
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2013, 09:24:23 PM »
Ok, maybe, I dont know if any of my explanations are good or valid, good for pointing it out as well and I have no problem and in fact welcome and happy about it. I just said different possibilities off the top of my head.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Avraham's relationship with Yitzahk
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2013, 09:26:27 PM »
Ok, maybe, I dont know if any of my explanations are good or valid, good for pointing it out as well and I have no problem and in fact welcome and happy about it. I just said different possibilities off the top of my head.

I accept your explanations (am not arguing), and have heard them from various sources..

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Avraham's relationship with Yitzahk
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2013, 09:27:06 PM »
Nice explanation, tag. If it was Abraham to get rivkah, he would have been treated differently.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Avraham's relationship with Yitzahk
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2013, 09:37:01 PM »

But it is also written that when Eliezer first met Rebeccas family they addressed him as if he was Abraham.

Gen 24:31. And he said, "Come, you who are blessed of the Lord. Why should you stand outside, when I have cleared the house, and a place for the camels?"

There are other explanations of this also...

  Was it after they found out who he was (a messenger of Avraham). Perhaps he already told them, actually I think he already told her after she showed her kindness in taking care of him and his camel(s) (showing good midot). He could have already then told her (and I believe he did, need to check) and then they knew he was a messenger of Avraham, soo thus they addressed him as his messenger.
 + Lavan is said to be a sly person who sweet talked people. His name- "Lavan" means White, he showed himself to be "White" and pure etc. but was a very big Rasha. (See the different explanations of Haggadah and mention of Lavan, for example see Rabbi Benyanim Kahane's Haggadah of the Jewish idea).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Avraham's relationship with Yitzahk
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2013, 10:11:11 PM »
He did not identify himself till pasuk 34 of Chapter 24...

34. And he said, "I am Abraham's servant.

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/torahreading.asp?AID=9171&p=4&showrashi=true

According to the simple reading they did not know who he was at that point...

Although he did say at Pasuk 27

27. And he said, "Blessed is the Lord, the God of my master, Abraham, Who has not forsaken His loving kindness and His truth from my master. As for me, the Lord led me on the road to the house of my master's kinsmen."
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Avraham's relationship with Yitzahk
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2013, 10:21:58 PM »
(See the link you posted, the commentary explains why he was soo nice. He saw the gold that Eliezer gave to her.

. Now Rebecca had a brother whose name was Laban, and Laban ran to the man outside, to the fountain.       כט. וּלְרִבְקָה אָח וּשְׁמוֹ לָבָן וַיָּרָץ לָבָן אֶל הָאִישׁ הַחוּצָה אֶל הָעָיִן:
and Laban ran: Why did he run and for what did he run? “Now it came to pass, when he saw the nose ring,” he said, “This person is rich,” and he set his eyes on the money. — [Gen. Rabbah 60:7]
    
וירץ: למה וירץ ועל מה רץ, ויהי כראות את הנזם, אמר עשיר הוא זה, ונתן עיניו בממון:
30. And it came to pass, when he saw the nose ring and the bracelets on his sister's hands, and when he heard the words of his sister Rebecca, saying, "So did the man speak to me, " that he came to the man, and behold, he was standing over the camels at the fountain.       ל. וַיְהִי | כִּרְאֹת אֶת הַנֶּזֶם וְאֶת הַצְּמִדִים עַל יְדֵי אֲחֹתוֹ וּכְשָׁמְעוֹ אֶת דִּבְרֵי רִבְקָה אֲחֹתוֹ לֵאמֹר כֹּה דִבֶּר אֵלַי הָאִישׁ וַיָּבֹא אֶל הָאִישׁ וְהִנֵּה עֹמֵד עַל הַגְּמַלִּים עַל הָעָיִן:
over the camels: to guard them, as (above 18:8):“And he was standing over them,” in order to serve them.
    
על הגמלים: לשמרן, כמו (לעיל יח ח) והוא עומד עליהם, לשמשם:
31. And he said, "Come, you who are blessed of the Lord. Why should you stand outside, when I have cleared the house, and a place for the camels?"
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Avraham's relationship with Yitzahk
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2013, 10:37:49 PM »
(See the link you posted, the commentary explains why he was soo nice. He saw the gold that Eliezer gave to her.

. Now Rebecca had a brother whose name was Laban, and Laban ran to the man outside, to the fountain.       כט. וּלְרִבְקָה אָח וּשְׁמוֹ לָבָן וַיָּרָץ לָבָן אֶל הָאִישׁ הַחוּצָה אֶל הָעָיִן:
and Laban ran: Why did he run and for what did he run? “Now it came to pass, when he saw the nose ring,” he said, “This person is rich,” and he set his eyes on the money. — [Gen. Rabbah 60:7]
    
וירץ: למה וירץ ועל מה רץ, ויהי כראות את הנזם, אמר עשיר הוא זה, ונתן עיניו בממון:
30. And it came to pass, when he saw the nose ring and the bracelets on his sister's hands, and when he heard the words of his sister Rebecca, saying, "So did the man speak to me, " that he came to the man, and behold, he was standing over the camels at the fountain.       ל. וַיְהִי | כִּרְאֹת אֶת הַנֶּזֶם וְאֶת הַצְּמִדִים עַל יְדֵי אֲחֹתוֹ וּכְשָׁמְעוֹ אֶת דִּבְרֵי רִבְקָה אֲחֹתוֹ לֵאמֹר כֹּה דִבֶּר אֵלַי הָאִישׁ וַיָּבֹא אֶל הָאִישׁ וְהִנֵּה עֹמֵד עַל הַגְּמַלִּים עַל הָעָיִן:
over the camels: to guard them, as (above 18:8):“And he was standing over them,” in order to serve them.
    
על הגמלים: לשמרן, כמו (לעיל יח ח) והוא עומד עליהם, לשמשם:
31. And he said, "Come, you who are blessed of the Lord. Why should you stand outside, when I have cleared the house, and a place for the camels?"


How do you explain the Targum Yonasan on this line though?

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14