Author Topic: Shalom  (Read 3141 times)

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Offline Lisa

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Re: George W. Bush fundraising for Messianic Judenrats
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2013, 11:00:39 PM »
Real rabbis don't effect the Jews that fall for J4J. Orthodox rabbis have a religious following. It's the people who have Deform or Left-Wing Conservative rabbis who are to blame. The answer is to have rabbis period as opposed to fake ones. Deform Jews have an empty religion and they seek something else. Instead of becoming good Jews, they support all types of evil causes. The Deform Movement is to blame.

So then shouldn't the real rabbis do more to reach out to the non-Orthodox Jews? 

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: George W. Bush fundraising for Messianic Judenrats
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2013, 11:01:16 PM »
According to Tovia Snger, there are two types of Evangelical Christians. The first are the Replacement Theologians that believed Yeshu "fulfilled" the Torah. The second are the Chrsitian Zionists that actually believe that G-d gave the Land to the Jewish People and want to support Israel and be blessed as G-d promised to Abraham. Bush belongs to the former while Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee belong to the latter.

Tovia Singer has Christians that listen to his show and he has Christians speak on his show. He is an expert on counter missionary activity and real Christian Zionists respect him.

 Unfortunately within the "Christian-Zionists" their are those who missionize as well. Its an epidemic. They are even going to some "Settler" communities, infiltrating them and spreading their ideology from within. This is going on today in places like Beit El with the "Right" not saying and protesting much.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Lisa

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Re: George W. Bush fundraising for Messianic Judenrats
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2013, 11:02:29 PM »
Unfortunately within the "Christian-Zionists" their are those who missionize as well. Its an epidemic. They are even going to some "Settler" communities, infiltrating them and spreading their ideology from within. This is going on today in places like Beit El with the "Right" not saying and protesting much.

So Tag, what do you suggest?  What would you do if you were the benevolent ruler of Israel? 

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: George W. Bush fundraising for Messianic Judenrats
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2013, 11:05:01 PM »
So then shouldn't the real rabbis do more to reach out to the non-Orthodox Jews?

 Yes, they are and people try. And its not only for the "Rabbis", ever single knowledgeable Jew is supposed to do what he/she can.

 Also don't forget the Christian groups have a lot of $ and a lot more people. Its easier for them to get things together as they have more people and resources, Orthodox Jews not as much, but their is definitely an effort being done- shiurim, Shabbatonim, follow up classes and such and other things (on campus), but definitely a bigger effort can and should be done. No one is excused especially today with the internet where people from remote areas can be accessed and influenced.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: George W. Bush fundraising for Messianic Judenrats
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2013, 11:05:52 PM »
So Tag, what do you suggest?  What would you do if you were the benevolent ruler of Israel?

 Jewish State.  No reliance on others, reliance only on G-D. THEY MUST GO!
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: George W. Bush fundraising for Messianic Judenrats
« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2013, 11:08:22 PM »
(Student of Rav Kahane ZTL HYD)

 (Although I remember now (Afterwards) this isn't my fav. shiur by him, but still commentary on some missionary activity in Samaria, also check Esseragaroth blog).






 Also according to him (And I would like to possibly ask Chaim in the future if I dont forget) he says that the last shiur (or something) of Rav Kahane ZTL HYD was about breaking and wrecking the bond between the nations and Am Yisrael because through it, it would be Emuna in Hashem and no one else.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: George W. Bush fundraising for Messianic Judenrats
« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2013, 11:13:04 PM »
I know Jews are not supposed too, but there should be Rabbis trying to convert Christians... Christians can believe their Messiah came, but they should follow the law of Torah...
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: George W. Bush fundraising for Messianic Judenrats
« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2013, 11:16:17 PM »
I know Jews are not supposed too, but there should be Rabbis trying to convert Christians... Christians can believe their Messiah came, but they should follow the law of Torah...

 Can't have something 50/50, it would just be creating another religion which is bad. Either someone converts and follows Torah or they don't. We don't advocate some admixtures of sorts. We already have different religions such as islam that just made things up.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: George W. Bush fundraising for Messianic Judenrats
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2013, 11:18:55 PM »
I know Jews are not supposed too, but there should be Rabbis trying to convert Christians... Christians can believe their Messiah came, but they should follow the law of Torah...


They should become Bnei Noah. We don't need insincere converts. How can a convert have heretical beliefs? It would make people be afraid to accept real converts.


Offline Israel Chai

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Re: George W. Bush fundraising for Messianic Judenrats
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2013, 11:20:12 PM »
I reiterate my suggestion for this thread to be moved.

Well there shouldn't be missionizing in Israel for one. You can blame the deform movement for the adults, but you see kids as young as nine years old that get called with their new friends to the side of their park and told "besus loves you" and "don't tell your parents, they won't understand".

It's important to be learned and separate for these reasons.

If I was the benevolent ruler of Israel, I'd debate them on T.V. After, I'd have a whole public lecture in heavy hit zones to say what exactly Judaism teaches about the assyrian religion, the roman religion, the Egpytian religions, and everything else that makes up their religion. It wasn't so easy to convert people when they saw the idolaters doing the exact same things as them, but today, ignorance is rife, and quite deadly.

The baptist church alone spends $450 million YEARLY to convert Jews. Each Jew has a price tag of about $200,000. While xtians should see that as a little funny, considering that they're converting people who aren't even idolaters, Judaism, and anything but their religion is seen as a cancer that we burn in hell forever for, since regardless of righteousness, you go to heaven if you believe something that just based on the story is 50%, and the facts bring it to -10,000%. Faith is better than a lifetime of not murdering, so it's important for them, see?

We could spend a million dollars a year to counter 100 times that spent by the missionizers, so I recommend charitable donations to Jews for Judaism.

Kahanism was always strongly anti-missionary, and should take the mantle of stopping a holocaust that has claimed more Jews since WW2 than the holocaust. Now we want support. It's gotten to the point where we consider allowing people to warn about the anti-crisp, who of course, in the NT, rebuilds the third temple.

This would be a great way for the ONE TRUE Kahanist movement to show itself and do something even the lefties would have trouble from every angle, were they to denounce, but of course, we need to have emunah in evangelicals, and not Hashem. I hate being sarcastic about this.

As for Ephraim, if you want to make people follow the Noahide laws and get them eternal life, you have my blessing, and it's a Mitzvah, so G-d will protect you while you do, but remember, G-d gives a hard time to those he loves, like the best father.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: George W. Bush fundraising for Messianic Judenrats
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2013, 11:21:50 PM »
Can't have something 50/50, it would just be creating another religion which is bad. Either someone converts and follows Torah or they don't. We don't advocate some admixtures of sorts. We already have different religions such as islam that just made things up.


The original Xtians were what he is suggesting. Then Paul went and changed things to get goyim to convert to his new religion when Jews rejected it.


Offline Israel Chai

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Re: George W. Bush fundraising for Messianic Judenrats
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2013, 11:28:25 PM »


The original Xtians were what he is suggesting. Then Paul went and changed things to get goyim to convert to his new religion when Jews rejected it.

I strongly doubt that based on all evidence to the contrary.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: George W. Bush fundraising for Messianic Judenrats
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2013, 11:30:43 PM »
I strongly doubt that based on all evidence to the contrary.


There is actually a story that Paul was a rabbi that infiltrated Xianity to make it completely separate from Judaism to save Jews from converting to it.

Look up Toldot Yeshu.


Offline Israel Chai

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Re: George W. Bush fundraising for Messianic Judenrats
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2013, 11:34:43 PM »


There is actually a story that Paul was a rabbi that infiltrated Xianity to make it completely separate from Judaism to save Jews from converting to it.

Look up Toldot Yeshu.

And said to dress up like Jews in order to convert them. Whoever said that story has no knowledge of xianity.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: George W. Bush fundraising for Messianic Judenrats
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2013, 11:35:03 PM »


The original Xtians were what he is suggesting. Then Paul went and changed things to get goyim to convert to his new religion when Jews rejected it.

 Maybe, I think mohammed did the same similar thing. They all go after the Jews, but then get rejected, get other people and then come back to wreck vengeance upon the Jews for rejecting them.
  Also perhaps (and this is a theory) Paul really came to sabotage that movement and totally separate them from the rest of Am Yisrael.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: George W. Bush fundraising for Messianic Judenrats
« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2013, 11:36:04 PM »
Maybe, I think mohammed did the same similar thing. They all go after the Jews, but then get rejected, get other people and then come back to wreck vengeance upon the Jews for rejecting them.
  Also perhaps (and this is a theory) Paul really came to sabotage that movement and totally separate them from the rest of Am Yisrael.

Again, the theory is insane.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: George W. Bush fundraising for Messianic Judenrats
« Reply #41 on: November 10, 2013, 11:44:30 PM »
If Christians believe Yeshu was a man, and they don't pray to or worship him. They fall under the class of B'nai Noach. They can still think he is Messiah!
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: George W. Bush fundraising for Messianic Judenrats
« Reply #42 on: November 10, 2013, 11:49:14 PM »
If Christians believe Yeshu was a man, and they don't pray to or worship him. They fall under the class of B'nai Noach. They can still think he is Messiah!

You are correct. You can also teach your converts that your grandfather was the Messiah, and they wouldn't be idolaters, in my not-completely-valid opinion, just something else...
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: George W. Bush fundraising for Messianic Judenrats
« Reply #43 on: November 10, 2013, 11:55:42 PM »
If Christians believe Yeshu was a man, and they don't pray to or worship him. They fall under the class of B'nai Noach. They can still think he is Messiah!


It's still prohibited for Jews to believe he was the Mashiach.


Offline Israel Chai

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Re: George W. Bush fundraising for Messianic Judenrats
« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2013, 11:58:38 PM »


It's still prohibited for Jews to believe he was the Mashiach.

Completely.

On a side note, the money we get from xtains is worth less than this http://dailyoftheday.com/no-this-is-not-an-okay-tip-to-leave/
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: George W. Bush fundraising for Messianic Judenrats
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2013, 12:06:12 AM »


It's still prohibited for Jews to believe he was the Mashiach.
Agreed 100%!
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: George W. Bush fundraising for Messianic Judenrats
« Reply #46 on: November 11, 2013, 12:34:16 AM »
Unfortunately this is another one of those divisive threads that is spiraling downward again. As for me, I think that all Bible-believing Christians reject witnessing that is based on deception and trickery. One of our great JTFers (White Israelite) has been on the receiving end of this; however, he admires and supports real Christians.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: George W. Bush fundraising for Messianic Judenrats
« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2013, 12:50:02 AM »
It would really be divisive if Hayamin helped save Jews from losing their share in the world to come in Israel, and made Jews for Judaism look like amateurs. It might even cause divides between Israel and the USA. Certainly all the "bible" believing world that follow the doctrines of deceptive and non-deceptive missionizing efforts contained in it.

It would be especially so if they tried to give them a knowledge of Hashem and led them to a relationship with him through the laws of Noah, which they are supposed to. And it could probably get you banned if you made fun of their religion like Abraham our father did with other people like that.

Good thing we don't have to worry about all that. We are peaceful and friendly. Not so the xtians, but who are we to cause divides that already exist.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: George W. Bush fundraising for Messianic Judenrats
« Reply #48 on: November 11, 2013, 03:53:37 PM »
I want to make it very clear! I'm totally against Jews  accepting Jesus, but I do think it is possible for Christians to fall into the category of B'nai Noach, even Rabbi Singer(from Jews 4 Judaism) says that some Christians do(I will not name them) fall into the Noachide category.

And Tag and Binyamin, it was Peter, not Paul. I will not say what I think of Paul...
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.