Author Topic: Shalom  (Read 2984 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Dan Ben Noah

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 231
Shalom
« on: March 20, 2014, 11:10:35 AM »
Shalom
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 10:30:25 PM by Dan Ben Noah »
Jeremiah 16:19 O Lord, Who are my power and my strength and my refuge in the day of trouble, to You nations will come from the ends of the earth and say, "Only lies have our fathers handed down to us, emptiness in which there is nothing of any avail!

Zechariah 8:23 So said the Lord of Hosts: In those days, when ten men of all the languages of the nations shall take hold of the skirt of a Jewish man, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."

Offline nessuno

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5533
Re: Pastor Manning makes Christianity look awesome
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2014, 11:21:02 AM »

Dan, do you believe in stoning people?

« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 10:31:06 PM by Dan Ben Noah »
Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline nessuno

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5533
Re: Pastor Manning makes Christianity look awesome
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2014, 11:33:28 AM »
I know I will get slammed for saying this...
A homosexual person sitting in a place of worship may be influenced to a different lifestyle.
What is wrong with allowing people to worship G-d?  There is no sexual orientation meter when you walk into a place of worship.
If someone is not making their sexual orientation my business...I don't care if they go to my church. 
When the Catholic church starts marrying homosexuals...get back to me.
I can't imagine a religious organization calling for people to be put to death. 
But, as good as Pastor Manning can be...he is a publicity monger and knows that sign will get attention.  I don't call that a breath of fresh anything.  I think he is calling for a crime to be committed.
Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline nessuno

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5533
Re: Pastor Manning makes Christianity look awesome
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2014, 11:39:59 AM »
Dan, do you have children?
Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline nessuno

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5533
Re: Pastor Manning makes Christianity look awesome
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2014, 12:40:25 PM »
I don't have a problem with religious people who have homosexual tendencies that they are trying to change.  I have heard of people who have changed through certain re-orientation programs.  I have a problem with people who are committing homosexual acts and are proud of it and act like it's not wrong.  The Torah does advocate killing these people, do you think the Torah advocates crime?
I don't think it would be right to execute people for homosexuality.  I only speak for myself.

Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Pastor Manning makes Christianity look awesome
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2014, 12:59:23 PM »
I don't think mentally ill people should be killed if they have not killed or attempted to kill innocent people. They should be treated or institutionalized. At one point America attempted to do that, sometimes successfully and sometimes not. I don't think practicing gays should be forbidden from ever setting foot in a church. That may be the only way they are exposed to a message urging them to leave their diseased lifestyle. If they actually want to join the church as members, that's a different story.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Pastor Manning makes Christianity look awesome
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2014, 04:09:25 PM »
I believe that the Torah commandment is still relevant and when the Moshiach comes, and the Sanhedrin is re-inaugerated, once again the courts will hand out the punishments of the Torah. This is not a comfortable idea for many non-Jews, and it is especially uncomfortable to a lot of Jews also... But as Rabbi Richman said concerning the re-institution of the daily Korbanot (Sacrifices on the Altar) which religious Jews pray for every day (to be restored), even if we don't think it is 'right' it is the will of Hashem, and we seek to serve him even if we don't understand.

That being said I don't think that we can carry out, or even suggest that a gay be punished in this manner. The confusion of the people of the world cause them to classify Torah Judaism with Sharia Islam (and they are nowhere near the same concerning capital punishment). But I do believe that the soul of a unrepentant homosexual is blemished, and is an abomination before G-d. He or she is destroying their soul by engaging in such transgressions. We must rebuke them in the strongest ways possible to get them to change their evil ways.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Pastor Manning makes Christianity look awesome
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2014, 04:12:23 PM »
Not to start another controversy but it is my understanding that their so-called messiah has abolished the commandments of the Torah thus the xtian has no need to perform any of the 613 commandments. I don't know if he also abolished the Noachide laws (I would assume he did) as the prohibition of sexual immorality does apply to the Noachide.

But I don't think the church has any desire to reinstitute the 613 commandments for gentiles. If so they would have quite a problem on their hands.. (Do not worship idols, Keep the Sabbath, Kosher food, Sacrifices, etc.)...


You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Rubystars

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 18270
  • Extreme MAGA Republican
Re: Pastor Manning makes Christianity look awesome
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2014, 04:34:18 PM »
I don't believe that Jesus would stone homosexuals. I do believe that He would encourage them not to act on their deviant desires and would forgive them if they decided to make a change away from that behavior.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5450
Re: Pastor Manning makes Christianity look awesome
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2014, 06:36:57 PM »
So if the Sanhedrin will punish people with Torah punishments, why should we not suggest that people should be punished in this manner?  Should we also say murder should not be punished with execution?  That's like saying there will be sacrifices in the Messianic age, but we shouldn't try to rebuild the Temple now.

 For now leaving aside Noahide societies-
 In Jewish society its only the Sanhedrin that can give these punishments. Today we don't have a Sanhedrin and no authority to execute these types of sinners. We only have authority and right to kill those who come to kill us or others (such as murderers or even those who wish to murder others). Also perhaps Bogdim, Mosrim and certain apikorsim. But these things are outside of the Court system. But in dealing with homosexuals for example it would only be the Sanhedrin- the High Jewish court which would have jurisdiction to deal with these issues.
 + Even at the times of the Sanhedrin, execution of sinners were rare. The "execution rate" was extremely low and the way to put someone to death for this crime for example would involve at least a warning beforehand and even a witnessing of this act in front of 2 witnesses + them telling him its assur to do, and many other things dealing with this issue. therefore the actual implementation was either very low or never existed for a homosexual. This is generally the way it was for all sins (of capital punishment) except Murder which did follow the usual legal pattern and then their were ways to execute them even afterwards (such as with a King- 1 witness enough), or the Sanhedrin itself but as second or third step with a lot more "lenient" ways to prosecute a known murderer.(To execute him even perhaps in different ways or by very long jail time).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5450
Re: Pastor Manning makes Christianity look awesome
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2014, 06:53:59 PM »
But still we say in this movement that Sanhedrin should be re-established so that Torah punishments can be carried out.  This is something that applies both to Jews and Gentiles.  So why should we not even suggest, as Muman said, that Torah punishments should be carried out?  Frequency of conviction is irrelevant, the point is the law should be on the books.

 It will be on the books, but the actual implementation will be rare (I assume at least) because if back then it was rare and even 2,000 years ago (less then actually) Rabbi Akiva said that the previous Sanhedrin's were "bloody" and he wouldn't execute any, then I think today it will be even much less in this field.
  Publicly it will be banned, and no "gay bars" and "pride parades" and such. Perhaps they can be offered being cured and such, I don't know, but if they flaunt it publicly (at least with things like kissing and such) also maybe even arrests and some fines, maybe yes or maybe no.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5450
Re: Pastor Manning makes Christianity look awesome
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2014, 06:56:30 PM »
Although here the Rav says to implement it now.

machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-ask-the-rav/60-marriage-conjugal-relations/618-homosexuality-and-the-tora
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Pastor Manning makes Christianity look awesome
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2014, 07:13:51 PM »
I get that the actual conviction would be rare, but I was wondering why Muman said that we shouldn't even suggest that laws against homosexuality should be punished by execution.  We as a movement are suggesting that the Sanhedrin should be re-established in Israel, and he agrees with this, so why not suggest that Gentile nations should implement anti-homosexuality laws with execution as a punishment?

I explained in my original post... The world today is very far from Torah. We don't help the return to Torah by suggesting that people implement death penalties without the great Sanhedrin. The Sanhedrin was not just an ordinary court, it was a court which stood to the highest standards of evidence and truth. People were not (and will not be) executed without a very strong burden of proof on the prosecution (including 2+ witnesses, of high calibre, and the offender must have been warned prior to commision, etc.). Todays courts are not to be trusted. I have witnessed miscarriages of justice in our court system and I barely trust that they will come to the proper conclusions. While I support the current death penalty for murder, it seems that there are cases where innocents may have been executed, and cases where the guilty walked free. Do we dare think our courts here in the US are of the calibre of the Sanhedrin? I do not believe so.

So when we go around saying 'Death to the homosexuals' we end up being put in the same category as the crazy Fred Phelps and his group of haters. While his basic idea is correct, that Hashem despises sexual immorality, his way of expressing it causes people to consider the movement crazy and bordering on the fanatical hatred of the muslims.

I think that we must get people to accept the Torah, the laws and statutes, and eventually we will reduce sin in the world, and eventually reinstate the Sanhedrin and re-institute the punishments of the Torah.

As always I will remind everyone, Jews, that Shabbat desecration is one sin which carries a death penalty (same as for homosexual sex)... So before we point the finger at the homos, make sure we are keeping Shabbat lest we be called hypocrites.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5450
Re: Pastor Manning makes Christianity look awesome
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2014, 07:23:51 PM »
Do we dare think our courts here in the US are of the calibre of the Sanhedrin? I do not believe so.


 I don't think they have to be. When we had the Sanhedrin their were also gentile courts and they weren't in the caliber of the Sanhedrin.
 + Its one of their laws to establish courts of law and to implement the rest of the 7 Misswoth Bnai Noah which includes not tolerating homosexual behavior (as one of the sexual misconducts). From the Rambam at least, the little that I know about it, I think that they have more leeway to execute such sinners.

 Actually with the Rambam in general, his opinion of why Schehem was punished was because he stole Dina (violating theft) and his society did not put him on trial (not having court of law and implementing it) thus they deserved death as a whole for violating the 7 Misswoth Bnai Noah. His is the most strictest opinion though. RambaN says because they didn't violate just once but over and over and over again this and many other laws and the Maharal says they violated the 7 Laws + this was an act of war declared against Jacob (Israel) and his sons, therefore because it was an act of war and they were a society they were killed by Shimon and Lewi.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5019
Re: Pastor Manning makes Christianity look awesome
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2014, 07:34:07 PM »
RABBI JACOB EMDEN'S VIEWS ON CHRISTIANITY*
and THE NOACHIDE COMMANDMENTS

*Reprinted from the Journal of Ecumenical Studies, 

Rabbi Emden(1697--1776) was one of the leading Torah authorities of the past several centuries. Historians of the rabbinate have often compared. him to Maimonides, both having written on all branches of Jewish knowledge, and both having shared a pragmatic and even innovative approach. Even those who disagreed with him sought his opinion, and he is read with interest to this day. Thus, Moses Mendelssohn, founder of the Haskalah (Enlightenment) movement, wrote to him as "your disciple, who thirsts for your words." Although Emden did not approve of the Hasidic movement--which had its beginnings in his time--his books are highly regarded amongst Hasidim. R. M. Sofer referred to him as a "prophet" (Halam Sofer 6:59). Thirty-one works were published during his lifetime, ten posthumously while others remain in manuscript. In his time, he was a fearless champion of Orthodox Judaism.



(SEDER OLAM RABBAH VEZUTA)For it is recognized that also the Nazarene and his disciples, especially Paul, warned concerning the Torah of the Israelites, to which all the circumcised are tied. And if they are truly Christians, they will observe their faith with truth, and not allow within their boundary this new unfit Messiah Shabbetai Zevi* who came to destroy the earth.

*(Shabbetai Zevi, a seventeenth-century mystic [d. 1676], represented himself as the Messiah, and many Jews initially believed his claim. When the Turks threatened him with death unless he converted to Islam, he meekly acquiesced, expiring in ignominy. However, secret cells of believers still followed his teachings and hoped for new leadership.)But truly even according to the writers of the Gospels, a Jew is not permitted to leave his Torah, for Paul wrote in his letter to the Galatians (Gal. 5) "I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, the Messiah will do you no good at all. You can take it from me that every man who receives circumcision is under obligation to keep the entire Torah." Again because of this he admonished in a letter to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 7) that the circumcised should not remove the marks of circumcision, nor should the uncircumcised circumcise themselves.

Many have asked that Paul appears to contradict himself here. In the Acts of the Apostles (Acts 16), it is mentioned that Paul circumcised his disciple Timothy. And they found this very puzzling, for this act seems to contradict the later text which seems to indicate that he considered circumcision a temporary commandment until the Messiahs arrival; but this took place after the time of the Nazarene! Therefore you must realize--and accept the truth from him who speaks it-- that we see clearly here that the Nazarene and his Apostles did not wish to destroy the Torah from Israel, God forbid; for it is written so in Matthew (Mt. 5), the Nazarene having said, "Do not suppose that I have come to abolish the Torah. I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. I tell you this: So long as heaven and earth endure, not a letter, not a stroke, will disappear from the Torah until it is achieved. If any man therefore sets aside even the least of the Torahs demands, and teaches others to do the same, he will have the lowest place in the Kingdom of Heaven, whereas anyone who keeps the Torah, and teaches others so, will stand high in the Kingdom of Heaven." This is also recorded in Luke (Lk. 16). It is therefore exceedingly clear that the Nazarene never dreamed of destroying the Torah.

We similarly find Paul, his disciple, in a letter to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 5), accusing them of fornication, and condemning one who had lived with his fathers wife. You may therefore understand that Paul doesnt contradict himself because of his circumcision of Timothy, for the latter was the son of a Jewish mother and a Gentile father (Acts 16), and Paul was a scholar, an attendant of Rabban Gamaliel the Elder, well-versed in the laws of the Torah. He knew that the child of a Jewish mother is considered a full Jew, even if the father should be a Gentile, as is written in the Talmud and Codes. He therefore acted entirely in accordance with the Halakha by circumcising Timothy. This would be in line with his position that all should remain within their own faith (1 Cor. 7). Timothy, born of a Jewish mother, had the law of a Jew, and had to be circumcised, just as he was enjoined to observe all commandments of the Torah (Pauls condemnation of the man who lived with his stepmother is similarly understandable, as such an act is also forbidden to Noahides), for all who are circumcised are bound by all the commandments. This provides a satisfactory reply to the question.

This will also solve the apparent contradictions in the Nazarenes own statements. Christian scholars have assumed from certain passages in the Gospels that he wished to give a new Torah to take the place of the Torah of Moses. How could he then have said explicitly that he comes only to fulfill it? But it is as I have said earlier--that the writers of the Gospels never meant to say that the Nazarene came to abolish Judaism, but only that he came to establish a religion for the Gentiles from that time onward. Nor was it new, but actually ancient; they being the Seven Commandments of the Sons of Noah, which were forgotten. The Apostles of the Nazarene then established them anew. However, those born as Jews, or circumcised as converts to Judaism (Ex. 12:49; one law shall be to him that is home-born, and unto the stranger) are obligated to observe all commandments of the Torah without exception.

But for the Gentiles he reserved the Seven Commandments which they have always been obligated to fulfill. It is for that reason that they were forbidden pollutions of idols, fornication, blood, and things strangled (Acts 15). They also forbade them circumcision and the Sabbath. All of this was in accord with the law and custom of our Torah, as expounded by our Sages, the true transmitters from Moses at Sinai. It was they who sat upon his seat (as the Nazarene himself attested [Mt. 23]). It was they (the Sages or Pharisees) who said that it is forbidden to circumcise a Gentile who does not accept upon himself the yoke of (all) the commandments. The Sages likewise said that the Gentile is enjoined not (fully) to observe the Sabbath. The Apostles of the Nazarene therefore chose for those Gentiles who do not enter the Jewish faith that instead of circumcision they should practice immersion (for truly immersion is also a condition of full conversion), and a commemoration of the Sabbath was made for them on Sunday. -- But the Nazarene and his Apostles observed the Sabbath and circumcision as mentioned earlier, for they were born as Jews. They observed the Torah fully, until after a period of time a few of them decided to give up the Torah among themselves completely. They said that its observance was too difficult for them and agreed to remove its yoke from their necks (Acts 15).

But even here they did correctly as far as the Gentiles were concerned, for they were not commanded to observe it. Nor is it proper to make it difficult for them, since they did not receive (accept?) the Torah and are not enjoined to ob serve the 613 commandments. However, it is completely different as far as the Jews are concerned, for they became obligated to fulfill the Torah because God delivered them from the iron furnace (Egypt) to be the people of his possession. Therefore they and their children became subject to it forever. This, their covenant, will not be forgotten from their mouths, nor be discontinued from their children. For it they have given their lives throughout the generations, as the Psalmist has recorded (Ps. 44:18): All this is come upon us; yet have we not forgotten Thee, neither have we been false to Thy covenant.

Certainly, therefore, there is no doubt that one who seeks truth will agree with our thesis, that the Nazarene and his Apostles never meant to abolish the Torah of Moses from one who was born a Jew. Likewise did Paul write in his letter to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 7) that each should adhere to the faith in which each was called. They therefore acted in accordance with the Torah by forbidding circumcision to Gentiles, according to the Halakha, as it is forbidden to one who does not accept the yoke of the commandments. They knew that it would be too difficult for the Gentiles to observe the Torah of Moses. They therefore forbade them to circumcise, and it would suffice that they observe the Seven Noahide Commandments, as commanded upon them through the Halakha from Moses at Sinai.

It is therefore a habitual saying of mine (not as a hypocritical flatterer, God forbid, for I am of the faithful believers of Israel, and I know well that the remnant of Israel will not speak falsehood, nor will their mouths contain a deceitful tongue) that the Nazarene brought about a double kindness in the world. On the one hand, he strengthened the Torah of Moses majestically, as mentioned earlier, and not one of our Sages spoke out more emphatically concerning the immutability of the Torah. And on the other hand, he did much good for the Gentiles (provided they do not turn about his intent as they please, as some foolish ones have done because they did not fully understand the intent of the authors of the Gospels. I have recently seen someone publish a book, and he had no idea about what he was writing. For if he had understood the subject, he would have kept his silence and not wasted the paper and ink. There are also found among us foolish scholars who know not their right from their left in the Written and Oral Torahs and cause the people to err with their pompous pronouncements. But there are true scholars among the Christians, just as there are the chosen few among Torah scholars; and there are few of the truly great.) by doing away with idolatry and removing the images from their midst. He obligated them with the Seven Commandments so that they should not be as the beasts of the field. He also bestowed upon them ethical ways, and in this respect he was much more stringent with them than the Torah of Moses, as is well-known. This in itself was most proper, as it is the correct way to acquire ethical practices, as the philosopher (Maimonides) mentioned. We have written similarly in our Siddur. However, it is not necessary to impose upon Jews such extreme ethical practices, since they have been obligated to the yoke of Torah, which weakens the strength of the (evil) inclination without it. They have taken the oath at Sinai and are already trained in proper practice and nature. These are clear words that will not be rejected by a clear-thinking person.

If certain Christians who consider themselves scholars would understand this secret, who believe that they are commanded to abolish the Torah of Moses from the seed of Israel, they would not engage in such foolishness. The people listen to their self-conceived words, something which was never intended by the writers of the Gospels. Quite the opposite, they have written clearly that they intended the contrary.

Because of these errant scholars, hatred has increased toward the Jews who are blameless of any guilt and proceed innocently to observe their Torah with all their heart, imbued with the fear of God. They should instead bring their people to love the ancient Children of Israel who remain loyal to their God, as indeed commanded to Christians by their original teachers.

They even said to love ones enemies. How much more so to us! In the name of heaven, we are your brothers! One God has created us all. Why should they abuse us because we are joined to the commandments of God, to which we are tied with the ropes of his love? We do this not to enjoy the pleasures of the (evil) inclination and emptiness of a passing world. For truly (Ps. 44) we have become a byword among the nations, and with all this (ibid.). In God have we gloried all the day, and we will give thanks unto Thy name for ever. We pray for the good of the entire world, and especially for the benefit of these lands in which we reside, protecting us and our observance of the Torah...

You, members of the Christian faith, how good and pleasant it might be if you will observe that which was commanded to you by your first teachers; how wonderful is your share if you will assist the Jews in the observance of their Torah. You will truly receive reward as if you had fulfilled it yourselves-for the one who helps others to observe is greater than one who observes but does not help others to do so--even though you only observe the Seven Commandments. I have written similarly in my pleasant work Torat Ha-Kenaot-- that the Jew who observes the Torah, but doesnt support it, is considered among the cursed; and the Gentile who does not observe the 613 commandments, but supports it, is considered among the blessed.

Translated by Harvey Falk

The above is part of Chapter 1 of "Jesus the Pharisee, A New Look at the Jewishness of Jesus", by Harvey Falk, 1985

 True Grace Ministries  Disclaimer   |   Main Menu   |   Other Articles   |   Email Webmaster  
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Pastor Manning makes Christianity look awesome
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2014, 09:09:52 PM »
Not to start another controversy but it is my understanding that their so-called messiah has abolished the commandments of the Torah thus the xtian has no need to perform any of the 613 commandments. I don't know if he also abolished the Noachide laws (I would assume he did) as the prohibition of sexual immorality does apply to the Noachide.

But I don't think the church has any desire to reinstitute the 613 commandments for gentiles. If so they would have quite a problem on their hands.. (Do not worship idols, Keep the Sabbath, Kosher food, Sacrifices, etc.)...
Read Acts 15:29, it basically restates the 7NL in a simplified form.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5019
Re: Pastor Manning makes Christianity look awesome
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2014, 11:05:09 PM »
http://www.chayas.com/state.htm#great

"The so-called “hypocrites” described in the New Testament were “Bet Shammai” Pharisees. To turn around, and ascribe these very same labels to modern Jews (who come from Bet Hillel Pharisees who existed at that time) is a betrayal of everything the real Yohoshuah (“Jesus”) stood for.

Historical Research & Summary (Some of this includes Netsari research not discussed in Rabbi Falk’s book)

The Netzarim (original Jews who followed Torah law and chose “Yehoshuah” as their messianic figure) were most likely a simple beit-Hillel (House of Hillel) group of Pharisees, who were opposed to a corrupt beit-Shammai (House of Shammai) group of Pharisees. The Bet Shammai group was dominant from about 30 BCE to 70 CE). This is not to say that the original Rabbi Shammai (who died in 30 CE) was a bad guy, as Rabbi Falk constantly differentiates between him and his later followers (Beit Shammai). In ancient traditional Jewish sources, Rabbi Shammai is a righteous man - even though some of his followers  eventually became corrupt, and were associated with the murderous Sicarri (zealots) - who caused serious problems later on down the line. Whereas the peace loving Bet Hillel group taught that non-Jews who lived righteously (ie: specifically followed the Seven Noahide Laws) had a share in the world to come, the Bet Shammai group taught otherwise. Eventually, Bet Hillel came back to power (after 70 CE), and the law of Judaism has always gone according to the original Rabbi Hillel.

One of his critical points is that there were two different prevalent categories of Pharisees (although there may have been more). This undeniable fact is usually overlooked by non-Jews - in the reading of their “New Testament.”  Besides Talmudic documentation, this fact is extrapolated through studies of the earliest Dead Sea scrolls – which illuminate the disputes that began between these two schools at a very early stage (before the Common Era).

Thus, the portrayal of Jews as “evil Pharisaic hypocrites” - as described in the New Testament – can not possibly represent a fair or historically accurate understanding of the Pharisees. Assuming Yehoshuah was real, it is no wonder he was upset with these Beit Shammai Pharisees!

According to Rabbi Falk, the beit-Hillel Pharisees opposed the beit-Shammai Pharisees who ruled at that time.[3] Again, this is supported in Talmudic & pre-Talmudic literature. I believe this can also be demonstrated through Dead Sea scroll references too. If I understand Rabbi Falk correctly, the “beit-Shammai Pharisees” controlled the Sanhedrin.

BACK TO CONTENTS

Filling In Gaps

According to early Church historians, the “Netzarim” (first, original followers of Yehoshuah) had absolutely nothing to do with the Roman oriented “Notsrim” (who were a competing, counterfeit group that would eventually become the Church we know today). This probably started when some of the “God-Fearers” group at that time had (in their ranks) people who used the current messianic belief of the original Netzarim leader (Yehoshuah) to create a new system of belief which tried tosynchronize Judaism with their own pre-existing (and many times idolatrous) belief system. This eventually became the Church. he Netzarim (the first pro-Torah followers of the oral Sinai Laws) of Yehoshua and other Jews of the Evionim / Ebionites and similar sects described by Eusebius, were eradicated by the Roman/Gentile Church in 333 CE.  (Belarmino Bagatti-The Church From the Circumcision p.14/ Eutychius Patrol. gr[ae]c., v 111, c. 1012-13)"
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5450
Re: Pastor Manning makes Christianity look awesome
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2014, 11:51:44 PM »
Ephraim, I don't know who wrote that article but I can't stand the disrespect to Beit Shami. Disrespecting the great Hachamim of Beit Shamai just to please yoshka and his group? I didn't read the whole thing, perhaps soon I will, but the beginning seems and is a huge disrespect to Beit Shamai. I cannot believe he is claiming the (Beit) Shami was "corrupted". We don't follow them because they were much more stricter, yes, but not corrupted. It was decided upon to follow Beit Hillel (consensus, majority and majority of cases), but still Beit Shamai was more sharper and great Scholars as well. Its said perhaps in the future the Halacha will switch to Beit Shamai, at least in some or many of the aspects.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5450
Re: Pastor Manning makes Christianity look awesome
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2014, 12:01:41 AM »
 - Ok read the whole thing, its purely speculative and almost totally untrue. Some people try to re-write history.
 -That site link isn't going.
 
 - It wasn't a Beit Hillel Vs. Beit Shamai thing about going against Rome. Our great Hachamim including Rabbi Akiva staged a revolt against the Roman's during the Bar Kochba revolt.
 Hillel and Shamai and their houses (or Academies) didn't have a problem with each other. After coming to a consensus they would be friends and even marry within each other (even in cases where Hillel said one is not a Mamzer while Shamai said that that case is a mamzer, once the law was decided it became the final law, that is all. )

 -This is like or perhaps includes the Deformists who try to portray a "strict" and unmoving Shamai and a flexible Hillel in trying to promote and accept their deformism.
 

Pirkei Avot Chapter 1
15. Shammai would say: Make your Torah study a permanent fixture of your life. Say little and do much. And receive every man with a pleasant countenance.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5303
Re: Pastor Manning makes Christianity look awesome
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2014, 12:07:31 AM »
He forgot Leviticus 18:22 that prohibits homosexuality. Leviticus 20:13 provides the penalty for violating Leviticus 18:22.


Offline Binyamin Yisrael

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5303
Re: Pastor Manning makes Christianity look awesome
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2014, 12:12:55 AM »
I believe that the Torah commandment is still relevant and when the Moshiach comes, and the Sanhedrin is re-inaugerated, once again the courts will hand out the punishments of the Torah. This is not a comfortable idea for many non-Jews, and it is especially uncomfortable to a lot of Jews also... But as Rabbi Richman said concerning the re-institution of the daily Korbanot (Sacrifices on the Altar) which religious Jews pray for every day (to be restored), even if we don't think it is 'right' it is the will of Hashem, and we seek to serve him even if we don't understand.


The Sanhedrin won't carry out punishments because there will be no evil as free will will be eliminated. If you are talking about a Kahanist Sanhedrin that rebuilds the Temple without waiting for Mashiach and for the Temple to magically fall from Heaven like Hasidim believe, then there will be punishments carried out. It will be like the Second Temple Period. But after Mashiach comes, the will to do evil won't exist so homosexuals won't have the urge anymore. Also, all illnesses won't exist so homosexuals will become heterosexuals.


Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5450
Re: Pastor Manning makes Christianity look awesome
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2014, 12:23:41 AM »


The Sanhedrin won't carry out punishments because there will be no evil as free will will be eliminated. If you are talking about a Kahanist Sanhedrin that rebuilds the Temple without waiting for Mashiach and for the Temple to magically fall from Heaven like Hasidim believe, then there will be punishments carried out. It will be like the Second Temple Period. But after Mashiach comes, the will to do evil won't exist so homosexuals won't have the urge anymore. Also, all illnesses won't exist so homosexuals will become heterosexuals.

 Not true. The world will function the way it is, definitely at the beginning stages of Moshiah. The only difference is that Am Yisrael will be free from the yoke of the nations. That is all. Yetzer Hara will still exist. Only at a much later time will or can humans evolve into much higher consciousness (if you will) and the elimination of the Yetzer Hara can be achieved.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline zachor_ve_kavod

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2179
Re: Pastor Manning makes Christianity look awesome
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2014, 01:03:13 AM »
There are two issues here: The first is how should homosexuals be viewed. The second is how religious Jews and Christians are viewed. I don't approve of homosexual acts but I don't judge thoughts. I would encourage people who do these sorts of things (homosexual acts) to stop. That's as far as I am prepared to go.

As far as how religious Jews and Christians are viewed, think for a moment of Iran, a country where homosexuals are hanged from cranes.  It's an evil, primitive society, suitable perhaps for Islam, but not in line with Judaism and Christianity.

I am certain that the pervasiveness of atheism these days is largely attributable to countries like Iran and bad religion like Islam, where homosexuals are hanged and prayers are shouted before the murder of innocents. Islam makes G-d look like a monster. And children who are raised in a secular family grow up to see this, and so what other conclusion can they come to other than that religion is awful?

How does the sign outside of the Atlah church make Christianity look? Be honest, how does it look? Are people going to see this sign calling for the stoning of homosexuals and be drawn to G-d? This sign makes Atlah look like the  primitive savages of Iran.

Frankly, I'm embarrassed that any of you approve of this. This is anything but "awesome".

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Pastor Manning makes Christianity look awesome
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2014, 01:12:01 AM »
zachor_ve_kavod,

I am sorry if it seems brutal but we are Torah Jews, and we must believe that the Torah contains the commandments for how to live a life according to how G-d wants us to live. It (punishment) is not meant to be cruel, it is meant to reduce the amount of evil in the world... While we may not understand the reasons why various sins carry certain punishments, we do know that the functioning of society has gone downhill the more the 'progressive' secular ideology gains support.

People are crazy, going and killing other people for no good reason. People are blood-thirsty and angry and they have no self control. This is all fed by the liberal 'do it if it feels good' mentality. And the more it is allowed the worse it gets.

So I stand my ground saying that eventually we will have a world where the commandments, and their requisite punishments, will be carried out. Will I be punished for my transgressions, of course I will. I am not without sin and I know I have a lot of growth to go through before I am cleansed of my transgression. I pray every day that Hashem forgive me for the things I do which fall short of his vision of a real human being, a 'mensch' as they say.

I would hesitate comparing Judaism to Islam because when the system is working properly, the Jewish people rise to the occasion. As was mentioned by a poster above, the death penalty was VERY SELDOM carried out. Whether because of the high standard of evidence, or because of the warning given, but there were very few executions by the Sanhedrin.

Regarding the discussion whether the Noachides should carry out the punishment I am not sure where I stand...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Pastor Manning makes Christianity look awesome
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2014, 04:06:03 AM »
Correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand it the Levitical law was given out in a time in which every single living Israelite personally witnessed Moses and G-d and were living directly under divine rule and knew it and saw it. They really had absolutely no excuse and so were held to the utmost standards. This is an era in which God is more removed from us, for many reasons. I can't speak for what Israel should do but as for America and other Western nations, I think the correct course of action is to institutionalize unrepentant gays or flagrant gay offenders for their mental health.