What is Kahanism?

[MarZutra]

This is a very good position that could be argued both ways.  The Rambam (Moses ben Maimon aka Maimonides), one of the greatest Jewish Sages, says that it is the same but they have bastardized the Torah which is makes their entire pseudo-religion an insult to HaShem directly.  Chaim, I believe, professes to this opinion.

However, directly do to their misrepresentation of over 20 Biblical personalities and too that of creation one can say that "Allah" is not the same G-d of the Bible.  For example in The Torah HaShem completed his great building task in 6 days and rested on the seventh.  This is for why Jews rest on Shabbat, the Holiest day in Judaism.  The Koran, as a matter of fact, says Allah, their god, did NOT rest on the seventh day as there was no need to rest and I believe more, or continual, work to be done.  This last point might be wrong as it has been a very long time since I've read the Koran but given that the former is true the latter would suggest that Allah is not Hashem.   Then again, who am I to argue with the Great Rambam who fluent in numerous languages including Arabic?

[newman]

It is not I who says to kill those who worship Idols. It is the L-rd.

Speak Torah and give me a source.  A Jewish court is only allowed to kill Jewish worshipers of Idols and idol worshipers living in Israel according to the Torah.  Also a idolatrous nation that makes Israel sin by pushing their idols onto us.  There is not verse that says you are to kill peaceful idol worshippers outside of Israel.  That is for G-d to take care of, not us.   

Also, Islam believes in the same G-d we do and they do not worship a rock.  The Rambam says this. It is propaganda to say they worship a rock which is not true, if you ask them why the bow down to the rock they won't tell you they are worshipping it but that they are bowing down to G-d and the rock is symbolic or something like this. 

They don't worship the G_d of Israel.

The name Allah descends from al ilah. And changes in preislamic time to the today known name allah. Mohammeds father wears the name Allah in his Name. Abadallah.
So we can be shure that the name Allah exists in preislamic time.
Allah the moongod, marries the sun and gets three daughters. Manat Uzza Lat and a lot of others. All doughters of Allah are in the believe of the arabs the stars.
There are the Satanic Verses, that prove us, that the Koran was changed. Originally Allah has in the Islam this three doughters.
Mohammed is a cheater, who takes the tin gods of the arabic pantheon unclothes them of many attributes of paganism and clothes them with stories he has picked up from jews and christians, but he didn't understand what he heard.

[TheStore]

It is not I who says to kill those who worship Idols. It is the L-rd.

Speak Torah and give me a source.  A Jewish court is only allowed to kill Jewish worshipers of Idols and idol worshipers living in Israel according to the Torah.  Also a idolatrous nation that makes Israel sin by pushing their idols onto us.  There is not verse that says you are to kill peaceful idol worshippers outside of Israel.  That is for G-d to take care of, not us.   

Also, Islam believes in the same G-d we do and they do not worship a rock.  The Rambam says this. It is propaganda to say they worship a rock which is not true, if you ask them why the bow down to the rock they won't tell you they are worshipping it but that they are bowing down to G-d and the rock is symbolic or something like this. 

Numbers 33:51-56, The ten Comandments are two examples..

[jdl4ever]

The Rambam was one of the greatest Torah Scholars who ever lived.  He lived in the 1100's and was the Chief Doctor of an Arabic King.  Most of his opinions are widely accepted and he spoke fluent Arabic since he lived with the Arabs. 

You guys are missing the point.  As long as someone believes in one G-d, he worships the same G-d as us and is not an idol worshipper.  It does not matter that the name of Allah is derived from the word for an idol, or that they think the entire Bible is a lie, and they think that G-d tells them to kill all the infidels.  These are sins in their own right but they still worship the same G-d since G-d is one and even if someone tells you that his G-d tells them to murder everyone on the planet, he stills believes in G-d, but is wrong about his nature.  Worshipping idols means someone worships a rock, the sun, a statue or a man or something of this nature and says that the stone or whatever it is is G-d or that there are several gods.   But if someone says that they believe in an all powerful being and calls this G-d any name he decides to call it, he believes in G-d and does not worship idols.   By the way, the Arabs believe in the G-d of Abraham by the way and say outright that they believe in the same G-d as us and if they say this it must be true since they love to say that there religion is nothing like ours since they hate us so much; the fact that on this one instance they don't say this means something. 

[Ultra Requete]

so the Quran is revelation from Hashem or illah the moon god? jdl4ever you claim that allah is Hashem; you have to explain this; beside Ramban lived in muslim ruled country IRC; and if he told the "peacefull muslims" that they're idolaters they woud kill every jews living in their land; and endengering the lives of fellow jews is sin according to Torah.

[MarZutra]

JDL, I believe you are mislead.  Just because one believes in "one" god alone does not dictate that that "one" god is HaShem.  For example Lucifarians, and even these "light" worshippers, in the form of knowledge, believe they worship one god but clearly these are not HaShem.  There is even an arguement that Catholics do not worship HaShem due to their Trinity concept as it is foreign to HaShem's Laws, thus denotes paganism or multi-theism.

You are very correct when you say that Muslims openly say that they worship the G-d of Avraham but they have molested the teachings thus that they also worship a god that did NOT rest on the seventh day.  Therefore one can argue that their version of god and their god might well be different as their teachings, beleived to be given from Allah, al-ilah, to be truthful.  This be the case, one could deffinately argue the point that Allah is not HaShem but a bastardized version of Him or even an over exaggerated pagan moon god from the early desert dwellers of Arabia, with their Kabah, prior to Mohammed.

Sure it can be argued both ways, as I stated above.  I wish to clearify that the belief in one god can mean many different things or be directed to one, different god than HaShem..

[jdl4ever]

so the Quran is revelation from Hashem or illah the moon G-d? jdl4ever you claim that allah is Hashem; you have to explain this; beside Ramban lived in muslim ruled country IRC; and if he told the "peacefull muslims" that they're idolaters they woud kill every jews living in their land; and endengering the lives of fellow jews is sin according to Torah.

Arabs believe in a single immaterial G-d.  If you believe in an immaterial being controlling the world, you believe in Hashem since there is only one G-d.  It makes no difference if that is the only thing you believe in correctly and make up nonsense about everything else, about G-d's ways, his word etc.  Arabs do not worship the moon, so stop this nonsense.   The Rambam was a REAL Rabbi by the way and he never adulterated the truth in his writings so stop suggesting horrible things about him.  The Rambam actually acted on his decision and advocated for Jews who the Arabs forced to convert by holding a sword to their throat and said that if an Arab does this to you privately you are permitted to submit to save your life since it is not idol worship. He hated the Muslims more than you do by the way since he lived in the middle of the Crusades.  Also I am not aware of any current Rabbi who argues with the Rambam on this issue.   I see something dangerous going on here, that hate blinds you to twisting the Torah.  We are required to hate our enemies, but you have to not let the evil inclination use this to his advantage and pervert your understanding of the Torah.  The Arabs believe in Hashem, but are our enemies and therefore are evil.  Also they do not observe the other 6 laws of Noah so they are evil.  But they do observe the one about believing in G-d.

[Mstislav]

so the Quran is revelation from Hashem or illah the moon G-d? jdl4ever you claim that allah is Hashem; you have to explain this; beside Ramban lived in muslim ruled country IRC; and if he told the "peacefull muslims" that they're idolaters they woud kill every jews living in their land; and endengering the lives of fellow jews is sin according to Torah.

Arabs believe in a immaterial G-d.  If you believe in an immaterial being, you believe in Hashem since there is only one G-d.  It makes no difference if that is the only thing you believe in correctly and make up nonsense about everything else, about G-d's ways, his word etc.  Arabs do not worship the moon, so stop this nonsense.   The Rambam was a REAL Rabbi by the way and he never adulterated the truth in his writings so stop suggesting horrible things about him.  He hated the Muslims more than you do by the way since he lived in the middle of the Crusades.  Also I am not aware of any current Rabbi who argues with the Rambam on this issue.

The cheif god of Hinduism is called 'brama', or something like that. The Hindus believe that he is 'immaterial'. Is that idol god HaShem? arabs do not worship the moon, but they worship the cheif idol, a moon god of pre islamic times. If ever you are passing by large mosques, look at the very top of the dome and you will see a cresent moon.

[jdl4ever]

It doesn't matter that you see a moon in their mosque, that's no different than having an embroidary of lions on most Torah Arks in Synagagues.  If you ask the Muslims to explain what they worship, they'll tell you they worship one immaterial G-d, not the moon. 

[TheStore]

You can call it whatever you want; Islam is nothing more than an Idolteor faith that wants nothing but to kill us. Why are you so quick to defend them?

[Israeli Mouse]

*Sigh* Must everyone always argue? Alright children lets get this all strait :-p
 
1. Kahanism is for the most part is simply believing in what Rav Kahane zt''l said, which is simply believing in and following the words of the Torah. Yes Bnei Noach can be Kahanists, but I doubt they are nearly as die-hard about it as Jews are. But as I said its simply believing in the words of the Torah and being willing and ready to follow though with it. As Rav Kahane zt''l used to say "This is not Kahanism! THIS IS JUDAISM!"

2. Yes according to Judaism you must kill someone first before they kill you - though you must be 100% sure. But YOU MUST KILL YOUR ENEMY.  And no that does not mean "oh I hate so and so so - I must kill him; it means if you see an Arab terrorist, it is your obligation to kill him before he kills others. This is both in the Tanach and the Gamara.
 
3. If you take a pig and call it a cow and say it is kosher does it make it so? Of course not! Just as when you take a pagan G-d and say it is HASHEM? NO IT IS NOT. As well if you are to take two pagan gods such as lets say.... Aphrodite and Hera and you worship one and someone else the other, though you are worshiping the deities exclusively and only believe that the one you worship is all powerful and the only G-d and creator making you monotheistic does this mean they are the same one since you are worshiping just one deity? Or does that mean they are not pagans just because you and another are worshiping them monotheistically? Of it doesn't. So just because Allah is a monotheistic deity does not make him HASHEM no matter how you want to put it, he is a pagan G-d and that is that.
 
4. I will agree that Islam is not idol worship when it comes to worshiping a statue, though it is a G-d. Though according to many the Kaaba was used for such worship. According to some it was dedicated to Hubal, a Nabatean deity of the moon, and contained 360 idols which probably represented the days of the year. According to others, the Kaaba was a shrine for the daughters of G-d  Hubal; al-Lat, al-Uzza, and Manat, and then again according to another about four hundred years before the birth of Muhammad, a man named Amr bin Lahyo bin Harath bin Amr ul-Qais bin Thalaba bin Azd bin Khalan bin Babalyun bin Saba, who was descended from Qahtan and king of Hijaz, had placed a Hubal idol onto the roof of the Kaaba, and this idol was one of the chief deities of the ruling Quraysh tribe.
 
I can go on and on, but point being if it was erected to be for idols, or if it even still has one in it then it would be idol worship since they are praying towards the Kaaba even if they are not praying to it itself but rather praying towards it the way we do to or towards the Kotel.
 
5. The only reason they say they are praying to HASHEM is because they are the children of Ishmael who was one of the sons of Avraham so it was easy for Mohammed to just say it was HASHEM the G-d of their grandfather. Mohammed also had been trying to entrap the Jews, so chances are that is where he even got the idea at first to say it was HASHEM. He even used to have everyone pray towards the Kotel like we do, to get Jews to convert - which thank heavens didn't work even though it did lead to him loathing the Jews as well as everyone else who did not convert. But since many pagans were converting to Judaism because polytheism/paganism seemed illogical, leaving them feeling like something was missing and they wanted something more possible like monotheism in which case it became easier to convert pagans to Islam since you already have what they like and were used to such as murder, rape, theft - and frankly its is much easier then Judaism to follow, other then praying two times a day more then our 3. And since it is such a strong religion - though it did not start out AS strong as it is today - it made them feel they might actually have found something worth worshiping even if it still was paganism which they probably didn't even realize it was. And further more Mohammed was trying to get Pagans to convert also, so what is a better way to do that then to take one of their deities say it is the only G-d, say this is a monotheistic religion and that's that. He even kept the simple of the deity, or did you never wonder where the idea of the crescent came from. So again, Islam may not be idol worship but IT IS paganism since it is not HASHEM they are praying to.
 
6. The death penalty for believing in polytheism is as has been already said; only for people with in Israel and NOT all over the rest of the world. The however only thing that does happen to all pagans all over  is they brake one of the 7 laws bnai noach.
 
 
P.S. To all those who take things extremely seriously and were offended by my saying "*Sigh* Must everyone always argue? Alright children lets get this all strait :-p" and felt I was speaking condescendingly to them, I am sorry I was only joking and didn't mean to offend you.

[MarZutra]

What a blessing of a post Israeli Mouse.  I agree with your words.  Keep up the good posts.  Shana tova

[Mstislav]

What a blessing of a post Israeli Mouse.  I agree with your words.  Keep up the good posts.  Shana tova

More like a post calming the stormy ocean.

[jdl4ever]

You can call it whatever you want; Islam is nothing more than an Idolteor faith that wants nothing but to kill us. Why are you so quick to defend them?

Because we observe the Torah and it is not acceptable to pervert the Torah just because a group of people is our enemy. 

[OdKahaneChai]

Great post as always, Elissa.  And I'll be happy to be your "spell check" any time. 

[TheStore]

You can call it whatever you want; Islam is nothing more than an Idolteor faith that wants nothing but to kill us. Why are you so quick to defend them?

Because we observe the Torah and it is not acceptable to pervert the Torah just because a group of people is our enemy. 

It is not I who is perverting the Torah. You are ignoring the violent parts. We are required to follow all, not just some, of the torah.

[jdl4ever]

Who's ignoring the violent parts?  We're required to kill our enemies but we can't pervert the Torah to do so by saying like some idiots posted here that we should rape them, or saying that they worship an idol.  You are making up parts of the Torah by arguing with the Rambam. 

[jdl4ever]

Israeli Mouse, your post is good but some of it I disagree with.  Theoretically speaking if someone would come out with a new religion saying that they worship a single immaterial G-d that controls the world and calls him Zeus derived from Greek paganism they would still be worshiping Hashem since there is only one G-d.  This is assuming they reject the Greek concept that Zeus has the form of a man and rejects that there are several deities.  This is simple logic:

1.  If there is only one immaterial G-d that controls the world, Hashem
2.  Then anyone who believes in one immaterial G-d must be Hashem regardless of who they think it is or how they derived the concept. 

[Israeli Mouse]

Israeli Mouse, your post is good but some of it I disagree with.  Theoretically speaking if someone would come out with a new religion saying that they worship a single immaterial G-d that controls the world and calls him Zeus derived from Greek paganism they would still be worshiping Hashem since there is only one G-d.  This is assuming they reject the Greek concept that Zeus has the form of a man and rejects that there are several deities.  This is simple logic:

1.  If there is only one immaterial G-d that controls the world, Hashem
2.  Then anyone who believes in one immaterial G-d must be Hashem regardless of who they think it is or how they derived the concept. 

But what if they took things from the Greek Zeus and Greek paganism? What if they... Oh idk... Took his lighting bolt as the symbol to their religion. And oh lets just say they speak of the Greek pagan religion in their "holy" book. Thats not exactly giving up the religion is it? No of course its not, its just mixing a pagan deity with HASHEM.

[Israeli Mouse]

Great post as always, Elissa.  And I'll be happy to be your "spell check" any time. 

lol and you haven't even seen my best yet or something my hearts really in :-p And again thanks lodes Gin'gi!

[jdl4ever]

It wouldn't make any difference even if derived their religion from Greek Paganism and use the name Zeus to appeal to these pagans.  The fact that they worship one immaterial G-d makes them worship Hashem even if they call it Zeus and derived their religion from Pagan concepts.  They changed it enough to worship one G-d which can only be Hashem. 

[Israeli Mouse]

It wouldn't make any difference even if derived their religion from Greek Paganism and use the name Zeus to appeal to these pagans.  The fact that they worship one immaterial G-d makes them worship Hashem even if they call it Zeus and derived their religion from Pagan concepts.  They changed it enough to worship one G-d which can only be Hashem. 

Alright lets try this again; Pagan deity, Pagan customs, Taking the idea of an infinite immortal G-d and they mix them. STILL PAGANISM. Just like if you take a donkey and a stallion and you mating them you don't have a stallion, you have a mule which is so much less then a stallion to the point that it can not even give off offspring.

[jdl4ever]

Still not paganism if they believe in one immaterial G-d. 

[Israeli Mouse]

No you are thinking of polytheism which means believing in more then one G-d, Paganism is believing in any G-d but HASHEM.

[jdl4ever]

I don't define paganism as you do.  If someone believes in one immaterial G-d and calls that G-d something other than Hashem, he's still worshiping Hashem.