JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Khazan on January 05, 2008, 09:32:55 PM
-
Hello, greetings and salutations to all. I first watched JTF almost weekly about 3 years ago, then went on and off for a year, then recently saw there was a JTF forum up and running.
Anyway, I'm not sure if the big chief, Chaim, will get to answer this, it'd be nice, but other input would be swell too, especially for anyone living in Israel.
I will be graduating come August and am considering studying Hebrew in Israel and perhaps even moving there. I went there this last summer on Birthright and absolutely loved it.
Thing is, I was raised Christian, yet my Mom's maiden name is Hebrew, Hazen, which comes from the Hebrew Khazan, which means cantor. I put this on my birthright application, I didn't [censored] my way into the trip, and I guess that was good enough for them. Most likely, my ancestors were in fact practicing Jews, but then converted to Christianity to avoid persecution. It looks like I want to go back to being Jewish, to some extent.
I don't see myself becoming entirely religious, but I think it's good for Jews to live in Israel. How would I go about proving my "Jewishness" should I apply for citizenship? Would that work, say giving them my Mom's birth certificate and pointing out her surname is Hebrew? I suppose telling them I went on Birthright would help too.
Even if that does work, like I said, I don't see myself becoming entirely religious. Despite this, is it still important for Jews who are not religious to live in Israel? I think all Jews have their part to play for world Jewry as a whole, religious, secular, etc. The world has not been kind to Jews for the last 2000 years, and Chaim is right when he says the world now wants the Jews to commit suicide in giving away Israel to pre-67 borders, he points out that even the left wing Abba Eban called the pre-67 borders "Auschwitz lines."
-
Welcome to the forum.
Now can I ask you to please change your username? The reference to Baal will not go over well here.
-
Oh, but don't you just love the irony? :::D
I suppose I could if it's going to be a problem.
-
The thing is, people here don't know you. So it might come across as you making fun of Judaism. But once they do get to know you, then you *might* be able to get away with such a username.
-
I would, but it doesn't let you register multiple accounts from the same computer. I see your point, I guess I just have a silly sense of humor. Hrm...you're a mod, could you change my account name to "Khazan"?
-
Certainly.
-
Hazan is a sephardic name
-
Hazan is a Sefardic name
I have some Hazans in my family.
I hope this guy isn't a Muslim Nazi who wants to try to scam his way into Israel....
-
Maybe he is your releative although Hazan is very common
-
Hi and welcome to the forum!
-
Maybe he is your releative although Hazan is very common
Maybe, but probably not. The Hazans in my family are in Israel for 70 years now. You never know though...
-
Welcome aboard
-
Yes welcome!
-
I don't see myself becoming entirely religious, but I think it's good for Jews to live in Israel. How would I go about proving my "Jewishness" should I apply for citizenship? Would that work, say giving them my Mom's birth certificate and pointing out her surname is Hebrew? I suppose telling them I went on Birthright would help too.
I don't think this would be sufficient. If you're serious about it, I would contact some Aliyah organization. I'm sure Taglit could hook you up with some who would be far better at helping you than we would.
One problem is that your mother's surname might be Hebrew, but her surname came from her dad, so there isn't any way to determine Jewish lineage. For all you know, you had almost exclusive Christian lineage except your possibly Jewish grandfather who gave your mom the Khazan surname, which would mean that you wouldn't be considered Jewish.
-
Thanks for changing my screen name. I don't know, I guess I just found it humorous, "Baalist Jew." But given the subject matter of this forum, I guess "Khazan" is much better. I still have difficulties with religion I guess, even Judaism, I love seeing the Torah being opened and read at Shul, but I also believe in evolution. Like I said, I was raised Christian, and Christians are essentially Judeo-pagans, so in a way I am a "Baalist Jew" Yacov, in that for a good portion of my life I committed idolatry in worshiping Jesus, which I no longer do, nor will I ever do again.
Hazan is a Sefardic name
Really? I remember typing in Hazen in the Yad Vashem search engine and there were a lot of Hazen's from Poland and Eastern Europe, which would be Ashkenazi.
If you want to return to being a Jew, you will have to have a real conversion, meaning to be religiously observant according to Halacha.
Doesn't the Law of Return also stipulate that the grandchild of a Jew can also move to Israel? Not just if their mother is Jewish? I'd be all about going to Israel by that, but I don't think I could convert to orthodox Judaism, for one, I love non kosher food.
Hazan is a Sefardic name
I have some Hazans in my family.
I hope this guy isn't a Muslim Nazi who wants to try to scam his way into Israel....
I don't think donors to JTF are Muslims, let alone Nazis, and for that matter Muslim Nazis. Nor people who go on the birthright program and help areas in Israel that were affected by the second Lebanon war.
You have Hazen's in your family? Perhaps we had a common ancestor somewhere down the line. My great Uncle, my grandfather's brother, showed me the family crest, and there's star of david's on it.
-
You have Hazen's in your family? Perhaps we had a common ancestor somewhere down the line. My great Uncle, my grandfather's brother, showed me the family crest, and there's star of david's on it.
That's great that you volunteered to help after the war, I was thinking of volunteering for one of those sorts of organizations but never got to it. Good you followed through with it.
Yes, Hazans. We don't have common ancestors though because the Hazan married my mother's cousin, so my second cousins are Hazans but I don't have any Hazan ancestors. Hazan is Sephardic and I don't have any Sephardic ancestors.
-
If you want to return to being a Jew, you will have to have a real conversion, meaning to be religiously observant according to Halacha.
If his matralinial line is Jewish, then isn't he already halachically Jewish?
-
I never understood the whole maternal thing. I guess "Jewish" is determined by mother, but your tribe is paternal. Same genes though, and that's just commentary, doesn't seem exactly to be favored by natural selection. But the law of return says people can become citizens if they had grandparents who were Jewish. My grandfather was Episcopalian, but he has a Hebrew name. To me, "Jew" is a ultimately a clade, a people who have descended from a common ancestor: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I guess you could say I'm a Jew removed a couple generations. I found that interesting, signed up for birthright, and wonder if perhaps destiny wants me to go to Israel again and become a citizen. I find Judaism interesting and I love Israel.
-
certainly O0
-
Why is that Bolshevik law? It was passed to be based on Nazi racial laws on who was Jewish, so as to provide a refuge for those who suffer anti-semitism, albeit not being halakically Jewish--rather ironic. I actually think it's quite sad modern Judaism hasn't evolved passed silly commentaries of the middle ages. I wonder if Mordechai Vanunu is halachically Jewish, while I'm not (at least directly) I would never have done what he had.
I don't practice any religion really, besides the occasional Jewish Holiday at my University's Chabad house. Do you think I'd be eligible for free Ulpan if I do go back, or is that for those who are maternally Jewish? Would someone making aliyah who had a Jewish grandfather have to pay for their Ulpan
-
FIrst thing is that your last name came from your father...so you're definately not Jewish even though there is a remote possibility you have Jewish blood from your father's side.
Anyway, it makes no difference..It's nice that you are interested in Hebrew, and moving to Israel and Judaism. The proper thing to do relentlessly and without discouragement is to find an Orthodox rabbi and tell him what you want to do. If you should convert to Judaism, you need to practice it in a very observant manner. If it is too much for you, then I would recommend Noahidism which is just as good and not as hard to follow compared to Judaism. If you choose to live in Israel, you need to learn Hebrew fluently. But, in order to become a citizen you need to be Jewish and preferbly from an Orthodox Rabbi. I don't think Conservative and Reform conversions count for Israeli citizenship.
-
It's actually my grandfather. See, I think I could still be a citizen under the amendment to the law of return in the 70's allowing grandchildren of Jews or spouses to become citizens as well. The thing is, I'm sure my early ancestors practiced Judaism then converted to Christianity to avoid persecution. My family crest is a shield with a cross in the middle, and four star of David's in the four parts divided by the cross.
-
It's actually my grandfather. See, I think I could still be a citizen under the amendment to the law of return in the 70's allowing grandchildren of Jews or spouses to become citizens as well. The thing is, I'm sure my early ancestors practiced Judaism then converted to Christianity to avoid persecution. My family crest is a shield with a cross in the middle, and four star of David's in the four parts divided by the cross.
Listen, convert the proper way..you'll be better off...even if the easy way were legal.
-
It's actually my grandfather. See, I think I could still be a citizen under the amendment to the law of return in the 70's allowing grandchildren of Jews or spouses to become citizens as well. The thing is, I'm sure my early ancestors practiced Judaism then converted to Christianity to avoid persecution. My family crest is a shield with a cross in the middle, and four star of David's in the four parts divided by the cross.
Listen, convert the proper way..you'll be better off...even if the easy way were legal.
He can't convert unless he's sincere and we're not supposed to insist. Instead we should encourage him to be a Noahide.
That's right..i forgot i mentioned that.
-
I would honestly consider being an Israeli citizen if I don't have to convert. My grandfather's surname is Hebrew, I am part Hebrew and entitled to the land of my ancestors.
-
I would honestly consider being an Israeli citizen if I don't have to convert. My grandfather's surname is Hebrew, I am part Hebrew and entitled to the land of my ancestors.
you have to be Jewish....
Not saying you are this way, but i'll give an example... A Jew who worships idols might still by blood be a Jew, but really is an idol worshipper.
Halakhically you aren't Jewish because it is your paternal grandfather...so either way, you need to convert orsomething like that.
-
I would honestly consider being an Israeli citizen if I don't have to convert. My grandfather's surname is Hebrew, I am part Hebrew and entitled to the land of my ancestors.
Look, I don't think you should take it up with us, we're not the authority that has the power to decide the issue. If you would like to become an Israeli citizen, then contact an aliyah organization and see if you're qualified or what you need to do to become qualified. Nothing we tell you is going to definitively matter anyway.
-
Just from reading your posts, Khazan, you don't want IT bad enough. Converting is probably not the path you should take.
-
I guess I ask to get a consensus on how I the Orthodoxy views non observant or non-maternal Jews immigrating to Israel. I guess Mills answered this, there's already many non-observant Jews.
However, consider that many of the Haredi and other very religious Jews, however religious they may be, do not serve in the IDF and get exemptions. While they may be "more religious" I think non observant or non-maternal 'Jews' who do serve in the military do far more to benefit the state of Israel than those pretentious religious Jews who have their noses glued to the Talmud all day. Sure, religion is important, but it can only get you so far.
I also brought this up because I wonder where this law came about with the Jewish mother, surely it is a commentary, and not in the Torah. I think it's sad modern Judaism hasn't evolved passed commentaries made in the dark ages, especially given the Nazi's definition of Jew--although the state of Israel has amended its law of return to be based on the Nazi definition of who is a Jew, to provide a haven for those who may face Antisemitism.
-
Nice one Mills.
And khazan- If you really want to get into Israel, it would be easy for you and actually your the type that the authorities want. 1- looks down upon the Talmud, regarding it as middle aged and outdated, 2- claiming that one of your grandparents were Jewish (by blood, and not halahically).
-
Nice one Mills.
And khazan- If you really want to get into Israel, it would be easy for you and actually your the type that the authorities want. 1- looks down upon the Talmud, regarding it as middle aged and outdated, 2- claiming that one of your grandparents were Jewish (by blood, and not halahically).
I agree, he doesn't sound really righteous enough to move to Israel :-\ >:(
-
I guess I ask to get a consensus on how I the Orthodoxy views non observant or non-maternal Jews immigrating to Israel. I guess Mills answered this, there's already many non-observant Jews.
However, consider that many of the Haredi and other very religious Jews, however religious they may be, do not serve in the IDF and get exemptions. While they may be "more religious" I think non observant or non-maternal 'Jews' who do serve in the military do far more to benefit the state of Israel than those pretentious religious Jews who have their noses glued to the Talmud all day. Sure, religion is important, but it can only get you so far.
I also brought this up because I wonder where this law came about with the Jewish mother, surely it is a commentary, and not in the Torah. I think it's sad modern Judaism hasn't evolved passed commentaries made in the dark ages, especially given the Nazi's definition of Jew--although the state of Israel has amended its law of return to be based on the Nazi definition of who is a Jew, to provide a haven for those who may face Antisemitism.
Wait a second..it's bad both ways...When religious Jews living in Israel do nothing to defend the state or benefit the state...and when secular Jews single handedly try to destroy Judaism and the Jewish state.
-
I guess I ask to get a consensus on how I the Orthodoxy views non observant or non-maternal Jews immigrating to Israel. I guess Mills answered this, there's already many non-observant Jews.
However, consider that many of the Haredi and other very religious Jews, however religious they may be, do not serve in the IDF and get exemptions. While they may be "more religious" I think non observant or non-maternal 'Jews' who do serve in the military do far more to benefit the state of Israel than those pretentious religious Jews who have their noses glued to the Talmud all day. Sure, religion is important, but it can only get you so far.
I also brought this up because I wonder where this law came about with the Jewish mother, surely it is a commentary, and not in the Torah. I think it's sad modern Judaism hasn't evolved passed commentaries made in the dark ages, especially given the Nazi's definition of Jew--although the state of Israel has amended its law of return to be based on the Nazi definition of who is a Jew, to provide a haven for those who may face Antisemitism.
Wait a second..it's bad both ways...When religious Jews living in Israel do nothing to defend the state or benefit the state...and when secular Jews single handedly try to destroy Judaism and the Jewish state.
No its not the same, first of all who says and established that the state of Israel is 100% legit? (that's still a big question), but in the other hand the Torah is 100% legit and everlasting, and that's what Jews own 100% loyalty to. + their are other issues of why Religious dont join and want to join the army (including some Halahic issues, and what goes on in the army, ex- mixing men and women).
-
Im not preaching hatred for all secular, nor do I have hatred agains't them, but do agains't their actions. But what the secular should do is to learn about Judasim, better in the galut, built themselves up in spirituality and then make it to Israel, etc. Going to Israel, and becomming a sinner of zion only brings more tragedy and the influence of the empty culture into Israel.
-
Nice one Mills.
And khazan- If you really want to get into Israel, it would be easy for you and actually your the type that the authorities want. 1- looks down upon the Talmud, regarding it as middle aged and outdated, 2- claiming that one of your grandparents were Jewish (by blood, and not halahically).
Really? Authorities prefer the non-Halacha 'Jews' over Halacha Jews? Why is that? Because they are most likely secular?
I didn't say I looked down on the Talmud, what I did say was I thought one of their commentaries is dated and is exactly what it is, a commentary, some rabbi's opinion, and is not mentioned in the Torah.
Mills, while I may not be a Jew in your eyes, I am a Jew in the eyes of the many Christians I am around, some of which are Antisemitic, who call me 'kike' in front of my face and have stabbed my back. I would also have been a Jew in Hitler's eyes. For a people who have experienced much persecution for thousdands of years, this law seeks to create division within the Jewish community rather than unifying it, which is why I think modern Judaism should evolve, as Israel has done with its amending the Law of Return. It's time for religious persons, which I'm assuming includes yourself, to get out of the dark ages and back to the 21st century.
-
knazan, watch yourself- anyway hitler isn't the chief Rabbi to decide who is a Jew and who isn't. You supposidly being persecuted has nothing to do with your validity of being a Jew or not. So according to this way of thinking would a Jew who is loved by gentiles make him loose his Jewishness just becuase he is liked?
Being hated or loved for something doesn't change the law of what one really is, and who made hitler the decider of Jewish law?
+ this shows a lot of the mentality of many of the non-observent, who only see their "Jewishness" as being one who is persecuted and hated by others, and also by blood and racial things , just like the nazis. On the other hand when Jews connect to their life-line the Torah all these other things are just stupidity, etc, and also one of the reasons of why G-d doesnt have to send persecution in order to get Jews in line.
-
I think your analogy is very flawed. It's not about being liked, it's about a commentary on how Jewish identity comes from the mother's side, which from what I know is purely a commentary made ages ago. What a sight that would have been, some Rabbi in a concentration camp trying to tell Nazis that some of the people there actually aren't Jews because they aren't maternal Jews! The Nazis would have laughed themselves to death.
A bitter irony isn't it? Too Jewish for the Christians/pagans/Nazis, yet not Jewish enough for the Jews. I even told them that and that didn't change anything.
Maybe I am ignorant of this law, if you could perhaps elaborate on it.
-
I guess I ask to get a consensus on how I the Orthodoxy views non observant or non-maternal Jews immigrating to Israel. I guess Mills answered this, there's already many non-observant Jews.
However, consider that many of the Haredi and other very religious Jews, however religious they may be, do not serve in the IDF and get exemptions. While they may be "more religious" I think non observant or non-maternal 'Jews' who do serve in the military do far more to benefit the state of Israel than those pretentious religious Jews who have their noses glued to the Talmud all day. Sure, religion is important, but it can only get you so far.
I also brought this up because I wonder where this law came about with the Jewish mother, surely it is a commentary, and not in the Torah. I think it's sad modern Judaism hasn't evolved passed commentaries made in the dark ages, especially given the Nazi's definition of Jew--although the state of Israel has amended its law of return to be based on the Nazi definition of who is a Jew, to provide a haven for those who may face Antisemitism.
Wait a second..it's bad both ways...When religious Jews living in Israel do nothing to defend the state or benefit the state...and when secular Jews single handedly try to destroy Judaism and the Jewish state.
No its not the same, first of all who says and established that the state of Israel is 100% legit? (that's still a big question), but in the other hand the Torah is 100% legit and everlasting, and that's what Jews own 100% loyalty to. + their are other issues of why Religious dont join and want to join the army (including some Halahic issues, and what goes on in the army, ex- mixing men and women).
Let me clarify myself. There are four types of Jews living in Israel. Religious Zionist, Secular Zionist, Relgious anti-zionist, and Secular anti-Zionist. the religious ones i was referring to were the anti-zionist...studying torah all day long and doing nothing else is just as unhealthy as eating broccoli and nothing else all day long.
-
I guess I ask to get a consensus on how I the Orthodoxy views non observant or non-maternal Jews immigrating to Israel. I guess Mills answered this, there's already many non-observant Jews.
However, consider that many of the Haredi and other very religious Jews, however religious they may be, do not serve in the IDF and get exemptions. While they may be "more religious" I think non observant or non-maternal 'Jews' who do serve in the military do far more to benefit the state of Israel than those pretentious religious Jews who have their noses glued to the Talmud all day. Sure, religion is important, but it can only get you so far.
I also brought this up because I wonder where this law came about with the Jewish mother, surely it is a commentary, and not in the Torah. I think it's sad modern Judaism hasn't evolved passed commentaries made in the dark ages, especially given the Nazi's definition of Jew--although the state of Israel has amended its law of return to be based on the Nazi definition of who is a Jew, to provide a haven for those who may face Antisemitism.
Wait a second..it's bad both ways...When religious Jews living in Israel do nothing to defend the state or benefit the state...and when secular Jews single handedly try to destroy Judaism and the Jewish state.
So I guess he should move to Israel then and join the pork eating liberals then.
I, being a religious person, feel that while secular Jews may seem to contribute "more" they have FAILED big time at leading Israel to the path of righteousness. In terms of gains, we can look at it the materialistic way, or the spiritual way. I'm sure liberals "contribute" materials, but who contributes to Israel more spirituality, and what pleases G-d more? material gains or spiritual gains?
Again you have to love your fellow Jews and love Israel whether you are an observant Jew or not to succeed. yes, it is better to be observant...but i would rather have secular zionists protecting me than haredi anti zionists if i were to live in Israel.
-
Nice one Mills.
And khazan- If you really want to get into Israel, it would be easy for you and actually your the type that the authorities want. 1- looks down upon the Talmud, regarding it as middle aged and outdated, 2- claiming that one of your grandparents were Jewish (by blood, and not halahically).
Really? Authorities prefer the non-Halacha 'Jews' over Halacha Jews? Why is that? Because they are most likely secular?
I didn't say I looked down on the Talmud, what I did say was I thought one of their commentaries is dated and is exactly what it is, a commentary, some rabbi's opinion, and is not mentioned in the Torah.
Mills, while I may not be a Jew in your eyes, I am a Jew in the eyes of the many Christians I am around, some of which are Antisemitic, who call me 'kike' in front of my face and have stabbed my back. I would also have been a Jew in Hitler's eyes. For a people who have experienced much persecution for thousdands of years, this law seeks to create division within the Jewish community rather than unifying it, which is why I think modern Judaism should evolve, as Israel has done with its amending the Law of Return. It's time for religious persons, which I'm assuming includes yourself, to get out of the dark ages and back to the 21st century.
Evil people cannot dictate what a Jew is...halakhically, you're not Jewish and if you wanted to become one, you should see an Orthodox Rabbi. Personally, Im' not Orthodox. Howver i believe they practice a more authentic Judaism than the other movements.
-
Killing Israel spiritually? Please...if we let the Haredi run the show in Israel, it would be life just as it was on the Shtetl. I've said religion is important, but the contributions of secular Jews is greatly helping Israel.
-
I think your analogy is very flawed. It's not about being liked, it's about a commentary on how Jewish identity comes from the mother's side, which from what I know is purely a commentary made ages ago. What a sight that would have been, some Rabbi in a concentration camp trying to tell Nazis that some of the people there actually aren't Jews because they aren't maternal Jews! The Nazis would have laughed themselves to death.
A bitter irony isn't it? Too Jewish for the Christians/pagans/Nazis, yet not Jewish enough for the Jews. I even told them that and that didn't change anything.
Maybe I am ignorant of this law, if you could perhaps elaborate on it.
Quit being an ignoramous. Back in the day, when Jewish women were raped by their enemies, and they kept the children, nobody knew who the father was. Therefore, the child was what religion the mother was..It's that simple! If you want to be considered a Jew halakhically, don't be a lazy bum! Go to an Orthodox rabbi and ask for his help!
-
Killing Israel spiritually? Please...if we let the Haredi run the show in Israel, it would be life just as it was on the Shtetl. I've said religion is important, but the contributions of secular Jews is greatly helping Israel.
For SOME of us...everything in moderation...Religious observance in moderation;Secular life in moderation. That's not to say that everyone should be moderate. We need haredi to be haredi and we need secularists to be secularists...but everyone in the middle who is struggling between the two need to understand...EVERYTHING in moderation..
-
Killing Israel spiritually? Please...if we let the Haredi run the show in Israel, it would be life just as it was on the Shtetl. I've said religion is important, but the contributions of secular Jews is greatly helping Israel.
For SOME of us...everything in moderation...Religious observance in moderation;Secular life in moderation. That's not to say that everyone should be moderate. We need haredi to be haredi and we need secularists to be secularists...but everyone in the middle who is struggling between the two need to understand...EVERYTHING in moderation..
No we dont need secularists to be secular, and anyway their are more categories that you didnt mention.(from previous posts) - what about just religious and not zionists? (i g2g, later will follow).
-
Oh yes, Khazan, Bringing up nazis to clarify your point on who's Jewish or not really helps!
So, by your logic, Jews should follow nazi ideology on who should be a Jew?
That would be horrible because then people like you, who have no respect for the Talmud and don't give a penny for Kosher, would be Jews. And having a lot more Jews like that would be detrimental and extremely worrisome !
And its obvious that you only see the Talmud as "made up".
Sorry but whether you think its made up or not, you are still not a Jew.
And Dr. Dan, I know what you mean. I prefer Haredim more than secular Jews, but I am religious and not everyone will be as me. Nevertheless, I know you love Israel too. But I honestly think that secular Jews will do more harm to Israel in the long run than religious zionist.
And to Yacov's comment...would I LOVE to join the Hilltop Youth! One day all Israel will be righteous as it should be, that is destiny.
Oh teh best Israelis are the Religious Zionists...I totally agree they shoudl be the ones ruling Israel.
-
Killing Israel spiritually? Please...if we let the Haredi run the show in Israel, it would be life just as it was on the Shtetl. I've said religion is important, but the contributions of secular Jews is greatly helping Israel.
For SOME of us...everything in moderation...Religious observance in moderation;Secular life in moderation. That's not to say that everyone should be moderate. We need haredi to be haredi and we need secularists to be secularists...but everyone in the middle who is struggling between the two need to understand...EVERYTHING in moderation..
No we dont need secularists to be secular, and anyway their are more categories that you didnt mention.(from previous posts) - what about just religious and not zionists? (i g2g, later will follow).
I think that when a Jew lives in Israel, he/she should help out the country in which he/she lives in...religious or not.
now as far as israel being a Jewish state. I'll reword it..israel is the only country whihc is supposed to represent the Jews. But a State government which practices Judaism? Not very well. A state which is too nice to the very enemies which want to destroy her? Yes. A state which hates Torah and Talmud? It depends on which individual you are talking to.
-
Oh yes, Khazan, Bringing up nazis to clarify your point on who's Jewish or not really helps!
So, by your logic, Jews should follow nazi ideology on who should be a Jew?
That would be horrible because then people like you, who have no respect for the Talmud and don't give a penny for Kosher, would be Jews. And having a lot more Jews like that would be detrimental and extremely worrisome !
And its obvious that you only see the Talmud as "made up".
Sorry but whether you think its made up or not, you are still not a Jew.
And Dr. Dan, I know what you mean. I prefer Haredim more than secular Jews, but I am religious and not everyone will be as me. Nevertheless, I know you love Israel too. But I honestly think that secular Jews will do more harm to Israel in the long run than religious zionist.
And to Yacov's comment...would I LOVE to join the Hilltop Youth! One day all Israel will be righteous as it should be, that is destiny.
Oh teh best Israelis are the Religious Zionists...I totally agree they shoudl be the ones ruling Israel.
OK, agreed. This is what I want. Religious Zionist like Chaim.
O0
-
"So, by your logic, Jews should follow nazi ideology on who should be a Jew? "
And Israel has, as the Law of Return was amended in the 70's. In a way, this is an 'unwritten' amendment to the Talmud.
Look, I think the talmud is an interesting work, but it is, correct me if I am wrong, codified commentaries on the Law. That's just some old rabbi's opinion on who is a Jew.
Now, say I'm wrong for the sake of argument. G-d orally told moses you're only Jewish if your mother is Jewish, MOses for some reason didn't write it down explicitly, then thousands of years later it gets written down in the Talmud. What about being part of the tribes of Israel, as the tribe is paternally determined. Would someone with a Jewish father be considered of the tribe then albeit the mother not being Jewish? Doesn't that create some kind of problem?
-
"So, by your logic, Jews should follow nazi ideology on who should be a Jew? "
And Israel has, as the Law of Return was amended in the 70's. In a way, this is an 'unwritten' amendment to the Talmud.
Look, I think the talmud is an interesting work, but it is, correct me if I am wrong, codified commentaries on the Law. That's just some old rabbi's opinion on who is a Jew.
Now, say I'm wrong for the sake of argument. G-d orally told moses you're only Jewish if your mother is Jewish, MOses for some reason didn't write it down explicitly, then thousands of years later it gets written down in the Talmud. What about being part of the tribes of Israel, as the tribe is paternally determined. Would someone with a Jewish father be considered of the tribe then albeit the mother not being Jewish? Doesn't that create some kind of problem?
Yes Moses didnt write everything down in the Torah, it was given over orally. Every Law is only understood orally, and not straight from the 5 books of Moses. Before the Talmud, they would remember it orally and also the students would have their own notes. Then due to the weaker generations it had to be written down so that it wouldn't be forgotten.
-
"So, by your logic, Jews should follow nazi ideology on who should be a Jew? "
And Israel has, as the Law of Return was amended in the 70's. In a way, this is an 'unwritten' amendment to the Talmud.
Look, I think the talmud is an interesting work, but it is, correct me if I am wrong, codified commentaries on the Law. That's just some old rabbi's opinion on who is a Jew.
Now, say I'm wrong for the sake of argument. G-d orally told moses you're only Jewish if your mother is Jewish, MOses for some reason didn't write it down explicitly, then thousands of years later it gets written down in the Talmud. What about being part of the tribes of Israel, as the tribe is paternally determined. Would someone with a Jewish father be considered of the tribe then albeit the mother not being Jewish? Doesn't that create some kind of problem?
Believe this "old" rabbis know a lot more about everything than you and I combined. I bet you haven't even read a single word from the Talmud!
-
You guys, let's give Khazan the benefit of the doubt for now. And that means educating him, and answering his questions.
So Khazan, as the others have said the Talmud is not just commentary written by some rabbis hundreds of years after Moses received the Torah. The Talmud is our Oral Law. When Moses was receiving the Torah from G-d, he was also given the Oral Law. The Oral Law tells us how to follow the written laws in our Torah. For example, Jews must keep kosher, part of which includes slaughtering the animal in the most humane way possible. But nowhere in the Torah does it say exactly how to slaughter animals. However, the Talmud incudes the exact instructions on the type of knife, called a "shechita" and how it's to be shaped.
Another example is wedding ceremonies. The Torah does not give instructions on how to conduct a wedding ceremony. The instructions are found in the Talmud. The same holds true when it comes to instructions given to Jews to pray five times a day, and regarding the Sabbath candles.
Now getting back to the Talmud history. It was given to Moses orally. However, during the Babylonian exile, the rabbis started to write it down for future generations, as they were in exile.
Regarding your question about whether Judaism is determined through matrilinear or patrilinear descent, Chaim has addressed this on a past Ask JTF show. And I think I understand where you're coming from. Dr. Dan correctly brings up the fact that Jewish women were often raped in the past, and their children became Jews. Consider this as well. It was easier to prove who the mother was of a child, than a father. Now we have DNA testing but that's a whole different issue.
Chaim said in response to the person who asked the same question as you, that we have our customs, and we should not let Nazis dictate or change them.
Mills, do you have the link to the speech Rabbi Tovia Singer gave about the Talmud, that you posted yesterday? I think Khazan would benefit from listening to it.
-
You guys, let's give Khazan the benefit of the doubt for now. And that means educating him, and answering his questions.
So Khazan, as the others have said the Talmud is not just commentary written by some rabbis hundreds of years after Moses received the Torah. The Talmud is our Oral Law. When Moses was receiving the Torah from G-d, he was also given the Oral Law. The Oral Law tells us how to follow the written laws in our Torah. For example, Jews must keep kosher, part of which includes slaughtering the animal in the most humane way possible. But nowhere in the Torah does it say exactly how to slaughter animals. However, the Talmud incudes the exact instructions on the type of knife, called a "shechita" and how it's to be shaped.
Another example is wedding ceremonies. The Torah does not give instructions on how to conduct a wedding ceremony. The instructions are found in the Talmud. The same holds true when it comes to instructions given to Jews to pray five times a day, and regarding the Sabbath candles.
Now getting back to the Talmud history. It was given to Moses orally. However, during the Babylonian exile, the rabbis started to write it down for future generations, as they were in exile.
Regarding your question about whether Judaism is determined through matrilinear or patrilinear descent, Chaim has addressed this on a past Ask JTF show. And I think I understand where you're coming from. Dr. Dan correctly brings up the fact that Jewish women were often raped in the past, and their children became Jews. Consider this as well. It was easier to prove who the mother was of a child, than a father. Now we have DNA testing but that's a whole different issue.
Chaim said in response to the person who asked the same question as you, that we have our customs, and we should not let Nazis dictate or change them.
Mills, do you have the link to the speech Rabbi Tovia Singer gave about the Talmud, that you posted yesterday? I think Khazan would benefit from listening to it.
Sorry for the unfriendly welcome , Khazan , I apologise.
-
If you want to return to being a Jew, you will have to have a real conversion, meaning to be religiously observant according to Halacha.
Unless his moms bloodline is Jewish..you cant become "UnJewish"
-
It's alright Ambiorix, I could have used better rhetoric with regards to my disagreement with .
So, the maternal lineage stipulation could be traced to the Babylonian exile, when the Talmud was written, which of course is based on the oral law and goes back to Moses at Sinai...I see. So in a way, this law is part of the Torah or at least is dated to then, and so the reason being is a Jewish mother, she knows he child is Jewish.
Granted, Chaim has a point on customs and this in fact seems to date back to the times of Moses. But do you see any advantage that the amendment to the Law of Return in the 70's could have?
-
It's alright Ambiorix, I could have used better rhetoric with regards to my disagreement with .
So, the maternal lineage stipulation could be traced to the Babylonian exile, when the Talmud was written, which of course is based on the oral law and goes back to Moses at Sinai...I see. So in a way, this law is part of the Torah or at least is dated to then, and so the reason being is a Jewish mother, she knows he child is Jewish.
Granted, Chaim has a point on customs and this in fact seems to date back to the times of Moses. But do you see any advantage that the amendment to the Law of Return in the 70's could have?
Thank you ;)
-
Thanks :)
-
The question of which parent is Jewish so the child is Jewish- was part of the Oral Law, but it wasn't really that much necessary back in the day when their was no assimilation. In some communities (ex- Syrian) even if the mother is Jewish and she had a child threw a non-Jew, they dont accept the child soo willingly (to school, and to other things, unless the mother makes realll regret and Tishuva).
-
What about the beta-Israel? They are descendants of the Queen of Sheba and King Solomon, yet they are admitted into Israel and considered Jews, albeit their Jewry being paternally traced through King Solomon.
-
What about the beta-Israel? They are descendants of the Queen of Sheba and King Solomon, yet they are admitted into Israel and considered Jews, albeit their Jewry being paternally traced through King Solomon.
I dont know much about them, but if it is true that they really descend from them, - then they are Jewish because every women that Solomon married, converted as well.
-
i wouldnt. i would stay put. O0
-
I'm planning on after graduating in the summer to take the fall off, travel Europe, smoke some good medicine in Amsterdam :D . Then do winter Ulpan in Israel, maybe study Arabic too. After that, I may consider applying for citizenship.
Thing is though ramen, I went to Israel on birthright, and I loved it: the land, the people, the food, the beautiful Israeli women.
-
i gta give u that. Israeli women....nice. but u get them everywhere else.
-
I'm planning on after graduating in the summer to take the fall off, travel Europe, smoke some good medicine in Amsterdam :D . Then do winter Ulpan in Israel, maybe study Arabic too. After that, I may consider applying for citizenship.
Thing is though ramen, I went to Israel on birthright, and I loved it: the land, the people, the food, the beautiful Israeli women.
Please stay in Europe or whereever else you are. We dont need more tzaddikim like you.
-
LOL! :::D I"m a tzaddik? Doesn't Israel need more tzaddik's? And at that, hash smoking tzaddiks? :::D
-
LOL! :::D I"m a tzaddik? Doesn't Israel need more tzaddik's? And at that, hash smoking tzaddiks? :::D
keep laughing, you fool.
-
tzaddik - what is the meaning.
-
I"m guessing Tzvi was being sarcastic, a Tzaddik is a righteous person, which is why I used the laugh icon.
Of course Tzvi, there is a hasidic saying, that the most unholy of men, have the greatest of revelations.
-
I"m guessing Tzvi was being sarcastic, a Tzaddik is a righteous person, which is why I used the laugh icon.
Of course Tzvi, there is a hasidic saying, that the most unholy of men, have the greatest of revelations.
Yea, thats becuase prophecy after the destruction of the Second Beit Hamikdash went to small children and to crazy people (im not making it up, that's what's said by the Hachamim).
-
well...I did have a dream a couple weeks ago I was standing atop the temple mount and 4 Chasidic Jews were carrying the ark of the covenant to the mount and were chasing the Muslims off. And I won't lie, I am a little crazy.
I'm sure you could construe many of the prophets crazy, namely Ezekiel, I think he walked around naked for a year or something.
-
well...I did have a dream a couple weeks ago I was standing atop the temple mount and 4 Chasidic Jews were carrying the ark of the covenant to the mount and were chasing the Muslims off. And I won't lie, I am a little crazy.
I'm sure you could construe many of the prophets crazy, namely Ezekiel, I think he walked around naked for a year or something.
nice dream...
actually, I had a dream many years ago that i was in synogogue and they were taking the Torah out of the Ark, but singing the Aitz Chaim song and doing everything backwards. And then all of a sudden they fumbled with the Torah and as it was about to hit the ground and dove and caught it.
-
Dreams and prophecy is complete different things, and anyway the dreams both of you had could mean many different things, also according to when it happened, etc.
-
Tzvi is right. Did you wake up from the dream feeling very happy and unusually close to G-d? If you did, the the dream may be of significance.
-
The reason why the prophets would sometimes be found naked and "out of it" is due to the nature of prophesy and the method of prophesy not because they were crazy.
-
Tzvi is right. Did you wake up from the dream feeling very happy and unusually close to G-d? If you did, the the dream may be of significance.
If you're talking to me...what was happening during that time was that i caught a couple students cheating on a quiz and I called them on it...
-
The reason why the prophets would sometimes be found naked and "out of it" is due to the nature of prophesy and the method of prophesy not because they were crazy.
I guess it's subjective. Sure, the nakedness was supposed to be a metaphor for what I think was the poverty if Israel did not turn from its wicked ways, but those around the prophet, they probably had another opinion.
Dreams and prophecy is complete different things, and anyway the dreams both of you had could mean many different things, also according to when it happened, etc.
Aren't they similar in some instances? Jacob's dream of the ladder to heaven, Joseph's dreams surely could be construed a prophecy of Egypt's famines.
Tzvi is right. Did you wake up from the dream feeling very happy and unusually close to G-d? If you did, the the dream may be of significance.
It was a couple weeks before Hanukkah, and a couple weeks after I stopped eating kosher. I made it my resolution to eat kosher after the birthright trip, but it's difficult given my situation. I was rather thrilled I had such a dream, I often teeter between being a pure secularist (I'm very much in favor of evolutionary theory) and doing anything religious. I think having this dream inspired me to attend the school's 1st menorah lighting. So in a way, I feel this dream, at least for a time, rekindled my "religiosity."
Granted, I did have a dream where I was circling the Kaaba in Mecca during the Hajj--however, I have never been to Mecca, as I am not a Muslim, but I have been to Jerusalem.
-
The reason why the prophets would sometimes be found naked and "out of it" is due to the nature of prophesy and the method of prophesy not because they were crazy.
I guess it's subjective. Sure, the nakedness was supposed to be a metaphor for what I think was the poverty if Israel did not turn from its wicked ways, but those around the prophet, they probably had another opinion.
I didn't mean that they purposely got naked but they were in a certain mental state that made them lose control of this world and this would some times happen. I would like if you answer the question I asked.
-
you need to prove that you have at least one jewish grandparent from either your mother's or father's side of your family. This is the Israeli law of return. You will need to show documentation- ketubah-marriage contract, circumcission-brit milah papers and/or gravestones. If you don't have these, then you will need to convert overseas, it can be a Reform, Conservative or Orthodox conversion and be a part of a Jewish community overseas for at least one year. If you convert with an Orthodox conversion, you will be allowed to marry in Israel. Reform and Orthodox conversions are permissible for immigration/aliyah and for saying "Jew" on your teudat zehut/identity card, but not for marriage in Israel.
-
would birth certificates work?
-
I understand what your dilemma is
I had to convert due to being adopted into a Christian home.
However when I started doing research in my family tree. I found out that on both sides of my biological parents the following.
Father Side: Korn - Jewish Surname back to the 16th Century German
Mother Side: Lorenz - Jewish Surname back to Germany again.
-
If the birth certificates were from a Jewish community, I'd say so. If they were from a country, I'd think that there should be a place on it that said "religion-Jewish", otherwise I don't think it would be acepted. Contact the Israel Aliyah Center, a shaliach- Israeli rep. to Jewish communities overseas and/or the Israeli embassy for further details.
-
No one's really practiced the Jewish religion on my mother's side of the family for ages. I mean, undoubtedly my ancestors were Jews given the fact there are star of davids on the family crest, and of course that Hazen is a Hebrew name. I'm just hoping should I go to Israel that saying my grandfather's name is Hazen, a Hebrew name, then proving that via my mother's birth certificate would be sufficient given the Law of Return.
-
That's a good question. I'm not really sure about how they count the time. The Israeli Ministry of the Interior/Misrad Hapenim makes these rules. I think it's one year from the time you convert.
Israel won't accept you just on the basis of your last name. There was so much fraud with the Russian immigration that now the government has become very strict.
I know that the religious kibbutzim have giyur/conversion programs. I think they last for a year. You can apply to a conversion program at a religious kibbutz, and get a visa to go to Israel. After you're converted, you can apply for aliyah in Israel based on the law of return. I know that kibbutz Sde Eliyahu near Bet Shean has a giyur/conversion program. Contact them and other religious kibbutzim for further details.
-
You want to be Jewish, and you want to be Israeli, it really is a no brainer, simply convert, your hebrew is going to have to be good if you are going to live in Israel anyway, part of the conversion process that involves learning hebrew will prepare you for that, two birds with one stone. That advice to check with the Ailyah organization first was the best advice on this whole thread.