JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: EagleEye on March 01, 2008, 08:03:04 PM
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Someone here is telling me that Kahane didn't support Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates. That would surprise me, because JTF seems to be a Kahanist organization, and JTF seems to support that.
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=264384&postcount=15
Is he right? I support Israel as a Jewish State at least its current size and probably bigger with arrangements being made, but personally don't go that far.
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I think that what would be done is if the arab states attack Israel then the territory won would be made Jewish territory and not given back.
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I've asked this question before.
Biblical Israel isn't from the "nile to the Euprhates" so I don't see how a Jewish state can be carved out of that.
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Check out these maps:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Early-Historical-Israel-Dan-Beersheba-Judea.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Levant_830.svg
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Thanks for the maps
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Nile to Euphrates is the promise which will happen, didn't happen yet. (I believe after Moshiah).
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Did Kahane himself have this viewpoint, or did later Kahanists take it up?
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Did Kahane himself have this viewpoint, or did later Kahanists take it up?
I dont remember reading it in his writings (if yes it would probably be found in OR HARA'AYON- The Jewish Idea)
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Re: "...Biblical Israel isn't from the "nile to the Euprhates" so I don't see how a Jewish state can be carved out of that..."
Biblical Israel was in more ways than one a failure to obey the very commands which G-d set forth in His Covenant with the Jewish People.
Our failure to obey Him resulted in our Exile from the Land...precisely as He promised us would happen should we fail to fulfill the Law.
JTF intends to rectify those shortcomings.
p.s.--one should understand that "The Land of Israel" should not be confused with the present day "State" of Israel.
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I've asked this question before.
Biblical Israel isn't from the "nile to the Euprhates" so I don't see how a Jewish state can be carved out of that.
They're not talking about the Biblical Kingdoms, they are talking about what land was promised. Regardless of what was conquered in previous attempts, we know full well what the Promised Land is, who it belongs to, and whom He gave it to.
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http://jpsbible.com/genesis/15.htm
Please read Genesis 15:18
"In that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying: 'Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates"
G-d gave that promise to Abraham. So it is G-d's will for the Jews to liberate all the land from the Nile to the Euphrates.
In my opinion the land west of river Jordan is the central core of the promised land. G-d did not permit Moses to cross the river Jordan to enter into Canaan but Moses was still within the boundaries given in Genesis 15:18. So I think G-d considers the area west of Jordan as the central core of Israel and wants to expand Israel to possess the rest of the areas as the Israelis obey His commands.
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http://jpsbible.com/genesis/15.htm
Genesis 15:18
In that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying: 'Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates
G-d gave that promise to Abraham. So it is G-d's will for the Jews to liberate all the land from the Nile to the Euphrates.
In my opinion the land west of river Jordan is the central core of the promised land. G-d did not permit Moses to cross the river Jordan to enter into Canaan but Moses was still within the boundaries given in Genesis 15:18. So I think G-d considers the area west of Jordan as the central core of Israel and wants to expand Israel to possess the rest of the areas as the Israelis obey His commands.
I suppose Jimmy Carter, Pat Buchanan, and Barack Babalama I'm sure, all pious men, have yet to read this. :::D
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Jimmy Carter, Pat Buchanan, and Barack Babalama, George Bushulla and other "pious" men use the Bible only for their personal gains. They have no intention to OBEY what the Bible says.
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I've asked this question before.
Biblical Israel isn't from the "nile to the Euprhates" so I don't see how a Jewish state can be carved out of that.
They're not talking about the Biblical Kingdoms, they are talking about what land was promised. Regardless of what was conquered in previous attempts, we know full well what the Promised Land is, who it belongs to, and whom He gave it to.
Ask yourself how realistic it is to take present day land from Jordan, Iraq and Syria.
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I've asked this question before.
Biblical Israel isn't from the "nile to the Euprhates" so I don't see how a Jewish state can be carved out of that.
They're not talking about the Biblical Kingdoms, they are talking about what land was promised. Regardless of what was conquered in previous attempts, we know full well what the Promised Land is, who it belongs to, and whom He gave it to.
Ask yourself how realistic it is to take present day land from Jordan, Iraq and Syria.
Well, had Israel expelled all Arabs from the restored territories after the 1967 six day war they could have set a stage to recover Jordan, Iraq and parts of Syria. They missed it. But as Tzvi pointed out one day it will be fulfilled.
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I've asked this question before.
Biblical Israel isn't from the "nile to the Euprhates" so I don't see how a Jewish state can be carved out of that.
They're not talking about the Biblical Kingdoms, they are talking about what land was promised. Regardless of what was conquered in previous attempts, we know full well what the Promised Land is, who it belongs to, and whom He gave it to.
Ask yourself how realistic it is to take present day land from Jordan, Iraq and Syria.
Well, had Israel expelled all Arabs from the restored territories after the 1967 six day war they could have set a stage to recover Jordan, Iraq and parts of Syria. They missed it. But as Tzvi pointed out one day it will be fulfilled.
Militarily it just wasn't possible, no way they could of. But it's irrelevant, they never even intended to conquer all those lands in 1967.
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Ask yourself how realistic it is to take present day land from Jordan, Iraq and Syria.
Zionism is about having a vision, not about thinking in terms of what's "realistic."
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Herzl used to say realists never accomplish anything
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Herzl used to say realists never accomplish anything
Doesn't make any sense :::D
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I've asked this question before.
Biblical Israel isn't from the "nile to the Euprhates" so I don't see how a Jewish state can be carved out of that.
They're not talking about the Biblical Kingdoms, they are talking about what land was promised. Regardless of what was conquered in previous attempts, we know full well what the Promised Land is, who it belongs to, and whom He gave it to.
Ask yourself how realistic it is to take present day land from Jordan, Iraq and Syria.
I wasn't talking about what you deem "realistic," or rational, I was talking about Divine promise. What exactly is the land that G-d gave to us. We know what it is. Eventually it will be Jewish. One way or another. Probably lots of miracle involved.
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I've asked this question before.
Biblical Israel isn't from the "nile to the Euprhates" so I don't see how a Jewish state can be carved out of that.
They're not talking about the Biblical Kingdoms, they are talking about what land was promised. Regardless of what was conquered in previous attempts, we know full well what the Promised Land is, who it belongs to, and whom He gave it to.
Ask yourself how realistic it is to take present day land from Jordan, Iraq and Syria.
Well, had Israel expelled all Arabs from the restored territories after the 1967 six day war they could have set a stage to recover Jordan, Iraq and parts of Syria. They missed it. But as Tzvi pointed out one day it will be fulfilled.
Militarily it just wasn't possible, no way they could of. But it's irrelevant, they never even intended to conquer all those lands in 1967.
Of course not, nor would THEY in the future, because leaders of Israel right now are faithless men of little principle and even less Jewish identity.
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Herzl used to say realists never accomplish anything
Doesn't make any sense :::D
Sure it makes sense, the "realists" were the ones that said "If man was meant to fly, he would have been born with wings", ponder that the next time you're in an airport.
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Herzl used to say realists never accomplish anything
Doesn't make any sense :::D
Sure it makes sense, the "realists" were the ones that said "If man was meant to fly, he would have been born with wings", ponder that the next time you're in an airport.
Nonsense, if anything the realists were the ones who made the planes. :::D
The realists also said the earth isn't flat, and that the sun is the center of the solar system and look at the reaction that got. "Truth is first ridiculed, then violently opposed, and then it is accepted as self-evident."
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Israel can beat Jordanian, Egiptian and Syrian armies combined; they did once they can do this again. have a little faith in G-d Allmighty and in IDF Oh realist. ::)
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Did Kahane himself have this viewpoint, or did later Kahanists take it up?
This is the viewpoint of Judaism and Rabbi Kahane merely taught genuine Judaism.
I dont think that Rav Kahane taught that. I belive that "Nile to Euphrates" is a prophecy, a promise (for the future) and not a command. Thats why settling Kanaan (what it was called at the time) was a Milhemet Mitzva and beyond that was a Milhemet Reishut if they wanted to wage a war for whatever reason. Also first their are specific territories that have to be fully conquered (however you say that word which means to occupy, etc.) and then you go for other land if the need and want + the right approval is given (by Sanhedrin and King working together).
Now other territories beyond that isn't a Milhemet Mitzva unless if it is a "Pikuah Nefesh" issue and the need arises to have a military presence their in order to save Jewish lives.
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Eilat and The Aravah are not in the boundaries that we are required to take first. The Southern half of the modern State of Israel have the same status as The Nile and Euphrates.
Yepp. Thats why the holidays their have to take place for 2 days as opposed to 1 (which is in Israel).
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At the current time we are willing to let the Arabs have from the Jordan to the Euphrates and it isn't worth the war
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Eilat and The Aravah are not in the boundaries that we are required to take first. The Southern half of the modern State of Israel have the same status as The Nile and Euphrates.
Yepp. Thats why the holidays their have to take place for 2 days as opposed to 1 (which is in Israel).
Do Israelis that live there keep 2 days?
I dont know if they all even keep one, but from what I heard is that Rav Eliyashiv (the Chief Askenazi- Rabbi) said that whoever lives their has to keep 2.
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Our return to all the G-d given land of Israel is inevitable. O0
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The peak of The State of Israel was in The Yom Kippur War when we on our way to Cairo and Damascus but then the self-hating Jew Henry Kissinger pressured Israel to surrender and in the armistice agreement, part of Sinai was surrendered and part of The Golan Heights was surrendered. The area of Kuneitra was Israel from 1967-1973 but it is now Syrian-occupied again. It is now a UN-buffer zone.
Cairo is on The Nile and part of The Euphrates goes through Syria. Maybe we could have captured the Syrian portion of it but not the Iraqi part which is more to The South.
Why do Israeli governments obey US orders?
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The peak of The State of Israel was in The Yom Kippur War when we on our way to Cairo and Damascus but then the self-hating Jew Henry Kissinger pressured Israel to surrender and in the armistice agreement, part of Sinai was surrendered and part of The Golan Heights was surrendered. The area of Kuneitra was Israel from 1967-1973 but it is now Syrian-occupied again. It is now a UN-buffer zone.
Cairo is on The Nile and part of The Euphrates goes through Syria. Maybe we could have captured the Syrian portion of it but not the Iraqi part which is more to The South.
Why do Israeli governments obey US orders?
Because we have self-hating "leaders" in Israel.
Were the first Zionists like that too??
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Well some people who claim to support Kahane on this Israel nationalist board call it "arab/nazi//liberal" propaganda to suggest that he supported such boundaries. They consider that suggestion a move to discredit the man. It's odd how two groups can profess to support Kahane, but they can't agree on what he actually stood for.
The truth is that Kahane appears to have been fairly vague on this question. Even if he disagreed with me, of course, it wouldn't change my viewpoint.
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I've asked this question before.
Biblical Israel isn't from the "nile to the Euprhates" so I don't see how a Jewish state can be carved out of that.
In the Torah it is written that the land from the Niles to the Euphrates will be made Jewish land. However, how come it wasn't so right way when the Israelites settled the land?
Commentary has indicated that due to the small population of the Israelites, their spreading out in such a large area of land would make them more vulnerable by vicious beasts and other enemies. Therefore, in time, that is what will end happening for the Jewish people.
In current days, the population of the Jewish people isn't nearly large enough to support them on those vast parts from the Nile to the Euphrates. But bet your bottom dollar at any which time, this may change in our lifetime or afterwards if we, the Jewish people, behave ourselves in the proper manner according to Gd.
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I've asked this question before.
Biblical Israel isn't from the "nile to the Euprhates" so I don't see how a Jewish state can be carved out of that.
They're not talking about the Biblical Kingdoms, they are talking about what land was promised. Regardless of what was conquered in previous attempts, we know full well what the Promised Land is, who it belongs to, and whom He gave it to.
Ask yourself how realistic it is to take present day land from Jordan, Iraq and Syria.
Let me tell you what is realistic: For the Israelis and JEwish people stop being a bunch of wimps and destory the very enemies which torment the Israeli citizens everyday. THe inhabitants of Gaza and Judea/Samaria (West Bank) are constantly tormenting Israel. In a likely war, the Jewish and righteous thing to do is to push away all of the inhabitants or to "smite" them and take the land and allow natural Jewish growth to take place in those areas. For those areas which meet the most resisitance by the enemy, it should be left alone for the time being.
#1 mistake by the Israel govt of today and the past was legitimizing a "Palestine". The Land east of the Jordan River is the "Palestine". Israel should have never kicked its own inhabitants out of the Jewish towns within those areas.
As far as Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, and Syria, time will only tell what kind of sick activity those nations have planned for Israel. We not see it in our lifetime what they might do to us. HOwever, it's only natural to have times of "peace" with our enemies until they act up again.
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In current days, the population of the Jewish people isn't nearly large enough to support them on those vast parts from the Nile to the Euphrates.
Why do you say this? 15 million Jews is not a large enough population to settle these lands? I think it's pretty large. A lot of these lands are desert - they cannot be overcrowded.
I read in a book on the history of Zionism about the first settlers, who didn't have enough agricultural tools, so they dug the hard soil with their hand in order to cultivate it. This made me cry. The image of people who love their land so much they dig it with their bare hands stuck in my mind.
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In current days, the population of the Jewish people isn't nearly large enough to support them on those vast parts from the Nile to the Euphrates.
Why do you say this? 15 million Jews is not a large enough population to settle these lands? I think it's pretty large. A lot of these lands are desert - they cannot be overcrowded.
I read in a book on the history of Zionism about the first settlers, who didn't have enough agricultural tools, so they dug the hard soil with their hand in order to cultivate it. This made me cry. The image of people who love their land so much they dig it with their bare hands stuck in my mind.
15 million Jews in Israel currently?
Just let me know where there is over crowding..
however, with the natural growth of the religious population versus the secular population, in time, in the next few generations, i do expect an expansion as prescribed by Gd.
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Dr. Dan,
I meant that the current number of Jews in the world is a reasonable number to settle the whole of Great Israel and defend it.
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Dr. Dan,
I meant that the current number of Jews in the world is a reasonable number to settle the whole of Great Israel and defend it.
when that time comes when the rest of us make aliya and avg 6 children per household, i would agree 100%
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Dr. Dan,
I meant that the current number of Jews in the world is a reasonable number to settle the whole of Great Israel and defend it.
when that time comes when the rest of us make aliya and avg 6 children per household, i would agree 100%
6 children per household was something that was possible in the 1950ies. I have 3 children - I barely have money to provide for them. We take no vacations, we buy no "stuff," we wear old clothes. All our money goes to feed and pay for extra-curricular activities for our children. Having children is very expensive for middle class families, if you take care of their development and education, which is very important to me, and if you buy nutritious and ecologically healthy food. Occasionally, I take my kids to concerts and theater, which is also very expensive these days. But believe me, they wear no designer clothes. The only way I could afford more children is if they didn't have any activities outside school and subsisted on potatoes and rice.
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Dr. Dan,
I meant that the current number of Jews in the world is a reasonable number to settle the whole of Great Israel and defend it.
when that time comes when the rest of us make aliya and avg 6 children per household, i would agree 100%
6 children per household was something that was possible in the 1950ies. I have 3 children - I barely have money to provide for them. We take no vacations, we buy no "stuff," we wear old clothes. All our money goes to feed and pay for extra-curricular activities for our children. Having children is very expensive for middle class families, if you take care of their development and education, which is very important to me, and if you buy nutritious and ecologically healthy food. Occasionally, I take my kids to concerts and theater, which is also very expensive these days. But believe me, they wear no designer clothes. The only way I could afford more children is if they didn't have any activities outside school and subsisted on potatoes and rice.
well, since society is very materialistic, there is a high demand for wordly things and therefore, there is a high cost to those things which you mentioned. Food isn't cheap either unless you go to McDonalds.
Since most households today have fewer children, those families can afford more things. The question is if that quality of life is better than having lots of kids.
The more observant Jews who selflessly practice Judaism, tend to have lots of kids, no ifs ands or buts, unless they can't afford to have challah for Shabbat. I have a feeling that these Jews will become the majority in time and their own kids will have lots of kids and that will inevitably lead to a natural population expansion which will result in wars in expanding the borders, if it is Gd's will.
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Dr. Dan,
I meant that the current number of Jews in the world is a reasonable number to settle the whole of Great Israel and defend it.
Only A-rab muslime US president like Osama or great catastrophe will force the materialistic oriented American Jewry to make alliyah. If you kick out A-rabs from Israel and Jesha you'll have place for five milions more Jews.
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since society is very materialistic, there is a high demand for wordly things and therefore, there is a high cost to those things which you mentioned.
I don't consider money spent on the kids' education an example of materialism. It is responsible parenting, in my opinion. The kids grow up to compete in the global economy with millions of Chinese and Indians now having a competitive edge over Westerners thanks to their superior educational system. Even in Iran, they have a good school system. A couple of years ago, Iranian students got the first place in the international physics competition. Thanks to liberal educators, the school systems are failing in the West. Parents have to supplement heavily if they want their children to have a chance of success in life.
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since society is very materialistic, there is a high demand for wordly things and therefore, there is a high cost to those things which you mentioned.
I don't consider money spent on the kids' education an example of materialism. It is responsible parenting, in my opinion. The kids grow up to compete in the global economy with millions of Chinese and Indians now having a competitive edge over Westerners thanks to their superior educational system. Even in Iran, they have a good school system. A couple of years ago, Iranian students got the first place in the international physics competition. Thanks to liberal educators, the school systems are failing in the West. Parents have to supplement heavily if they want their children to have a chance of success in life.
A great Jewish education is probably the only way to go...Judaism makes Jews smarter.
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since society is very materialistic, there is a high demand for wordly things and therefore, there is a high cost to those things which you mentioned.
I don't consider money spent on the kids' education an example of materialism. It is responsible parenting, in my opinion. The kids grow up to compete in the global economy with millions of Chinese and Indians now having a competitive edge over Westerners thanks to their superior educational system. Even in Iran, they have a good school system. A couple of years ago, Iranian students got the first place in the international physics competition. Thanks to liberal educators, the school systems are failing in the West. Parents have to supplement heavily if they want their children to have a chance of success in life.
A great Jewish education is probably the only way to go...Judaism makes Jews smarter.
I agree, one of the biggest problems is that a lot of people have lost there roots and in times of these faith prevails...
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Someone here is telling me that Kahane didn't support Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates. That would surprise me, because JTF seems to be a Kahanist organization, and JTF seems to support that.
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=264384&postcount=15
Is he right? I support Israel as a Jewish State at least its current size and probably bigger with arrangements being made, but personally don't go that far.
Rabbi Kahane's position is that we keep every inch gained in 67 and if we are attacked again, we will take and much as we can get and then annex it, but Rav Kahane was not in favor of starting the war.
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he once joked that he is basically a moderate, so will allow them jordan.