JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Chaim Ben Pesach on December 09, 2009, 06:03:45 AM
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בס''ד
There have been some unfortunate arguments recently between Ron Ben Michael and members of our great forum. Some forum members have wondered why I continue to defend Ron under these circumstances.
But first, I want to say that Ron is completely devoted to the cause of Israel and the Jewish people. He has therefore agreed to no longer engage in arguments with forum members so long as there is an emergency situation in Judea and Samaria.
Now why do I always defend Ron despite all of the past unfortunate arguing?
1. Ron is single-handedly responsible for most of the hectic activity on our Hebrew forum lately. He opens fascinating new posts, creates interesting and fun polls, makes Hebrew videos promoting Hayamin Haamiti, and even answers our Hebrew members' questions with videos which are then uploaded to youtube and flix. Ron brings life and excitement and vitality to our Hebrew forum. He is loved by everyone on the Hebrew forum. I made a Hebrew video honoring Ron, and the response from our members was very strong.
2. Ron is a 16 year old Israeli Jew. He has lived in Eretz Yisrael (the Land of Israel) all of his life. Therefore, Hebrew is his native language. In Hebrew, Ron is a genius. He writes like a professor. In addition, Ron knows English, Russian and Arabic. So this 16 year old kid already speaks four completely different and difficult languages.
I am convinced that Ron has the potential to become a future leader. And I am sure we can all agree that on the Hebrew forum, Ron is helping enormously.
Now to all of our great members who got caught up in the unnecessary arguing that has taken place:
Please accept my personal apology. I expect things to be much better now, G-d willing. Let us work together again for this noble cause.
Thank you so much and G-d bless you.
By the way, my fever is down to 101 degrees F. this morning. Yeahhhhhhhhhhhh! Still too high but much better. I can't wait to get back to the forum!
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Chaim, I don't have a problem with Ron Ben Michael arguing with me, anyway. So no need to apologize. I think you helped explain his point of view in ask JTF and I don't blame him for it, even if I disagree in a certain way. There is a truth in what he is saying, but at the same time, it's important not to assume the worst about everybody, or to include everyone under the same umbrella, that's all. There are good and bad people in all groups, including Jews including gentiles and even including Muslim gentiles (or so-called Muslims). But I agree that it is better if we focus on what we have in common and work toward common goals, rather than constantly stress the differences. I think that is a fair and wise approach. Refuah Sheleima.
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Chaim, I feel I must say some blunt words.
It seems Ron is not aware that Judaism forbids to rely on miracles. To deliberately seek conflicts with the gentiles, to alienate and enrage them against the Jews is to rely on miracles (that G-d will need to do to save us from them). It is worse than to stay in the middle of the vibrant highway and and believe that G-d will save him from the passing trucks. True, the Jews depend only on Hashem but it is forbidden to test His love to us.
Keep in mind that this site is viewed not only by our supporters. By his actions he may endanger the Jews of the Galut. This may outweigh all the most important things that he does on the Hebrew forum (he really does them and I acknowlegde his great contribution). But all the great achievements do not worth a single Jewish life.
He is 16, and in Judaism 13 year-old man is fully responsible for his actions and is obliged to follow the commandments.
Ron, you certainly have potential to become a great leader of the Jewish people but to realize it you must learn to acknowledge your mistakes. Do as Yehuda ben Yaakov did. Sacrifice your ego for the sake of the Jewish people. Ask forgiveness for the injust attacks on Gentile members of the forum. This will only bring you more respect and honor.
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Chaim, I feel I must say some blunt words.
It seems Ron is not aware that Judaism forbids to rely on miracles. To deliberately seek conflicts with the gentiles, to alienate and enrage them against the Jews is to rely on miracles (that G-d will need to do to save us from them). It is worse than to stay in the middle of the vibrant highway and and believe that G-d will save him from the passing trucks. True, the Jews depend only on Hashem but it is forbidden to test His love to us.
Keep in mind that this site is viewed not only by our supporters. By his actions he may endanger the Jews of the Galut. This may outweigh all the most important things that he does on the Hebrew forum (he really does them and I acknowlegde his great contribution). But all the great achievements do not worth a single Jewish life.
He is 16, and in Judaism 13 year-old man is fully responsible for his actions and is obliged to follow the commandments.
Ron, you certainly have potential to become a great leader of the Jewish people but to realize it you must learn to acknowledge your mistakes. Do as Yehuda ben Yaakov did. Sacrifice your ego for the sake of the Jewish people. Ask forgiveness for the injust attacks on Gentile members of the forum. This will only bring you more respect and honor.
בס''ד
Spectator, I have the greatest respect for you.
But I don't believe that Ron favors intentionally seeking conflicts with Gentiles. Ron got into some heated arguments on the forum which became personal and he became very defensive. Most of the time it was Ron versus the whole forum, which can be pretty rough for a 16 year old kid. Let's give him another chance. He's agreed to stop all personal arguments.
Spectator, Ron is a lot like you. You're also a multilingual genius. In the end, you brilliant Russian Jews will be the salvation of Israel.
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בס"ד
Chaim, I feel I must say some blunt words.
It seems Ron is not aware that Judaism forbids to rely on miracles. To deliberately seek conflicts with the gentiles, to alienate and enrage them against the Jews is to rely on miracles (that G-d will need to do to save us from them). It is worse than to stay in the middle of the vibrant highway and and believe that G-d will save him from the passing trucks. True, the Jews depend only on Hashem but it is forbidden to test His love to us.
Keep in mind that this site is viewed not only by our supporters. By his actions he may endanger the Jews of the Galut. This may outweigh all the most important things that he does on the Hebrew forum (he really does them and I acknowlegde his great contribution). But all the great achievements do not worth a single Jewish life.
He is 16, and in Judaism 13 year-old man is fully responsible for his actions and is obliged to follow the commandments.
Ron, you certainly have potential to become a great leader of the Jewish people but to realize it you must learn to acknowledge your mistakes. Do as Yehuda ben Yaakov did. Sacrifice your ego for the sake of the Jewish people. Ask forgiveness for the injust attacks on Gentile members of the forum. This will only bring you more respect and honor.
Spectator, I have to answer you cause you didn't understand me. I do not depend on miracles, not at all, I'm totally against this view, but I'm agaist depending on Gentiles and seeking for allies. Did you read Rav Kahana's Perush Ha'Maccabi?
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Ron is definately a Jewish guy I respect, but he needs to change his views about Americans And Serbians.. Many Americans and Serbians support Israel.. I hope you will accept that Ron. Insulting Americans and Serbians will not help the cause of Israel and the Jewish people.
I respect that such a young man can be so talented and knowledgable. My brother is also fluent in many languagse, including Hebrew, Spanish , Arabic. He learned at a young age. Many young child prodigies amongst our people and King David himself was but a lad when he slew Goliath.
There are some JEws I meet who hate Christians and its understandable seeing our history. But we must live in 21st century, not in olde Europe. I have been called a CHrist killer on many occasions by some ignorant honky fake Christians. Yet, I won't judge all gentiles based on a few ignorant backwards losers. I have met many Christians who are more willing to die for the Jewish people and Israel than some of secular JEws I have met around here. Some of these Jews even care nothing for Israel or hate Israel. Self-hating Jews are a major threat.. Righteous Gentiles are an important and wonderful ally for us to have.
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בס"ד
Ron is definately a Jewish guy I respect, but he needs to change his views about Americans And Serbians.. Many Americans and Serbians support Israel.. I hope you will accept that Ron. Insulting Americans and Serbians will not help the cause of Israel and the Jewish people.
I respect that such a young man can be so talented and knowledgable. My brother is also fluent in many languagse, including Hebrew, Spanish , Arabic. He learned at a young age. Many young child prodigies amongst our people and King David himself was but a lad when he slew Goliath.
There are some JEws I meet who hate Christians and its understandable seeing our history. But we must live in 21st century, not in olde Europe. I have been called a CHrist killer on many occasions by some ignorant honky fake Christians. Yet, I won't judge all gentiles based on a few ignorant backwards losers. I have met many Christians who are more willing to die for the Jewish people and Israel than some of secular JEws I have met around here. Some of these Jews even care nothing for Israel or hate Israel. Self-hating Jews are a major threat.. Righteous Gentiles are an important and wonderful ally for us to have.
Do you really want me to keep refuting this and explaing why I don't no so-called allies?
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I hope we can all get along together as much as possible now. Ron you know four languages? That's really amazing.
Chaim I'm so happy that your fever is down! I hope you'll be completely well very soon!
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בס"ד
Ron is definately a Jewish guy I respect, but he needs to change his views about Americans And Serbians.. Many Americans and Serbians support Israel.. I hope you will accept that Ron. Insulting Americans and Serbians will not help the cause of Israel and the Jewish people.
I respect that such a young man can be so talented and knowledgable. My brother is also fluent in many languagse, including Hebrew, Spanish , Arabic. He learned at a young age. Many young child prodigies amongst our people and King David himself was but a lad when he slew Goliath.
There are some JEws I meet who hate Christians and its understandable seeing our history. But we must live in 21st century, not in olde Europe. I have been called a CHrist killer on many occasions by some ignorant honky fake Christians. Yet, I won't judge all gentiles based on a few ignorant backwards losers. I have met many Christians who are more willing to die for the Jewish people and Israel than some of secular JEws I have met around here. Some of these Jews even care nothing for Israel or hate Israel. Self-hating Jews are a major threat.. Righteous Gentiles are an important and wonderful ally for us to have.
Do you really want me to keep refuting this and explaing why I don't no so-called allies?
No man, it's over and done. Let it go and move on.
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בס"ד
Ruby I'll guess that according to my agreement I'd answer and refute your claims later on, when the time comes.
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בס"ד
Ruby I'll guess that according to my agreement I'd answer and refute your claims later on, when the time comes.
I don't feel like I've made claims but just told you how things are here. I know you have a completely different experience when dealing with Christians so I don't expect that it would be easy for you to understand where I'm coming from.
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בס"ד
בס"ד
Ruby I'll guess that according to my agreement I'd answer and refute your claims later on, when the time comes.
I don't feel like I've made claims but just told you how things are here. I know you have a completely different experience when dealing with Christians so I don't expect that it would be easy for you to understand where I'm coming from.
I'll explain what I mean sometime else.
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And it's over :dance: :dance: :dance:
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Ron is a great patriot, if there are 1000 youths like Ron in Israel, they will help influence the israeli society as a whole. I many times miss discussing with him various topics over msn, when he is offline. At his age, the knowledge he posseses would put a 50 yr old liberal-Jew to shame.
ps:
Although Ron sometimes accuses me of supporting Russia, but still we get along very well!
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בס"ד
Ron is definately a Jewish guy I respect, but he needs to change his views about Americans And Serbians.. Many Americans and Serbians support Israel.. I hope you will accept that Ron. Insulting Americans and Serbians will not help the cause of Israel and the Jewish people.
I respect that such a young man can be so talented and knowledgable. My brother is also fluent in many languagse, including Hebrew, Spanish , Arabic. He learned at a young age. Many young child prodigies amongst our people and King David himself was but a lad when he slew Goliath.
There are some JEws I meet who hate Christians and its understandable seeing our history. But we must live in 21st century, not in olde Europe. I have been called a CHrist killer on many occasions by some ignorant honky fake Christians. Yet, I won't judge all gentiles based on a few ignorant backwards losers. I have met many Christians who are more willing to die for the Jewish people and Israel than some of secular JEws I have met around here. Some of these Jews even care nothing for Israel or hate Israel. Self-hating Jews are a major threat.. Righteous Gentiles are an important and wonderful ally for us to have.
Do you really want me to keep refuting this and explaing why I don't no so-called allies?
בס''ד
No Ron, you have explained your position more than once.
On this issue of Israel supposedly "needing" allies, I agree with Ron. His view on this issue is the Torah view:
"הן עם לבדד ישכון ובגויים לא יתחשב"
(במדבר כ"ג ט)
"Lo this is a nation that shall dwell alone and not be reckoned among the nations" (Numbers 23:9).
When Israel is alone and isolated, as in the 1967 Six Day War, she wins spectacular and miraculous victories.
But when Israel depends upon international support, like in the second Lebanon war of 2006, she loses.
Why? Because if Israel has "allies", then everyone will say, "You didn't win the war because of G-d, you won because of your allies. You won because you get foreign aid from America."
However, while the Jews are forbidden to have foreign nations as allies, having the support of Gentile individuals and working with righteous Gentile individuals is certainly permitted and encouraged.
So you see, some of the things Ron stands for come right of the Bible! And all of us, Jews and Gentiles, are supposed to follow what G-d commands in the Bible.
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I hope we can all get along together as much as possible now. Ron you know four languages? That's really amazing.
Chaim I'm so happy that your fever is down! I hope you'll be completely well very soon!
בס''ד
Thank you so much Rubystars! You're the greatest!
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בס"ד
Ron is definately a Jewish guy I respect, but he needs to change his views about Americans And Serbians.. Many Americans and Serbians support Israel.. I hope you will accept that Ron. Insulting Americans and Serbians will not help the cause of Israel and the Jewish people.
I respect that such a young man can be so talented and knowledgable. My brother is also fluent in many languagse, including Hebrew, Spanish , Arabic. He learned at a young age. Many young child prodigies amongst our people and King David himself was but a lad when he slew Goliath.
There are some JEws I meet who hate Christians and its understandable seeing our history. But we must live in 21st century, not in olde Europe. I have been called a CHrist killer on many occasions by some ignorant honky fake Christians. Yet, I won't judge all gentiles based on a few ignorant backwards losers. I have met many Christians who are more willing to die for the Jewish people and Israel than some of secular JEws I have met around here. Some of these Jews even care nothing for Israel or hate Israel. Self-hating Jews are a major threat.. Righteous Gentiles are an important and wonderful ally for us to have.
Do you really want me to keep refuting this and explaing why I don't no so-called allies?
בס''ד
No Ron, you have explained your position more than once.
On this issue of Israel supposedly "needing" allies, I agree with Ron. His view on this issue is the Torah view:
"הן עם לבדד ישכון ובגויים לא יתחשב"
(במדבר כ"ג ט)
"Lo this is a nation that shall dwell alone and not be reckoned among the nations" (Numbers 23:9).
When Israel is alone and isolated, as in the 1967 Six Day War, she wins spectacular and miraculous victories.
But when Israel depends upon international support, like in the second Lebanon war of 2006, she loses.
Why? Because if Israel has "allies", then everyone will say, "You didn't win the war because of G-d, you won because of your allies. You won because you get foreign aid from America."
However, while the Jews are forbidden to have foreign nations as allies, having the support of Gentile individuals and working with righteous Gentile individuals is certainly permitted and encouraged.
So you see, some of the things Ron stands for come right of the Bible! And all of us, Jews and Gentiles, are supposed to follow what G-d commands in the Bible.
Moral of story from Chanukah, Jews are the oil, goyim are water, oil and water don't mix. Jews and goyim don't mix. In theory Ron is right, but that's not for him to decide how to run JTF. YOU make the rules here, Chaim, and you've made it abundantly clear that Gentiles are an important part of the movement, and were important even to Rav Kahane. Ron can argue all he wants, and he can bring all the proofs in the Torah, but you make the rules of JTF. In essence, he's not necessarily arguing with the Gentiles. He's arguing with your poilicies while making them feel bad.
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בס"ד
Ron is definately a Jewish guy I respect, but he needs to change his views about Americans And Serbians.. Many Americans and Serbians support Israel.. I hope you will accept that Ron. Insulting Americans and Serbians will not help the cause of Israel and the Jewish people.
I respect that such a young man can be so talented and knowledgable. My brother is also fluent in many languagse, including Hebrew, Spanish , Arabic. He learned at a young age. Many young child prodigies amongst our people and King David himself was but a lad when he slew Goliath.
There are some JEws I meet who hate Christians and its understandable seeing our history. But we must live in 21st century, not in olde Europe. I have been called a CHrist killer on many occasions by some ignorant honky fake Christians. Yet, I won't judge all gentiles based on a few ignorant backwards losers. I have met many Christians who are more willing to die for the Jewish people and Israel than some of secular JEws I have met around here. Some of these Jews even care nothing for Israel or hate Israel. Self-hating Jews are a major threat.. Righteous Gentiles are an important and wonderful ally for us to have.
Do you really want me to keep refuting this and explaing why I don't no so-called allies?
בס''ד
No Ron, you have explained your position more than once.
On this issue of Israel supposedly "needing" allies, I agree with Ron. His view on this issue is the Torah view:
"הן עם לבדד ישכון ובגויים לא יתחשב"
(במדבר כ"ג ט)
"Lo this is a nation that shall dwell alone and not be reckoned among the nations" (Numbers 23:9).
When Israel is alone and isolated, as in the 1967 Six Day War, she wins spectacular and miraculous victories.
But when Israel depends upon international support, like in the second Lebanon war of 2006, she loses.
Why? Because if Israel has "allies", then everyone will say, "You didn't win the war because of G-d, you won because of your allies. You won because you get foreign aid from America."
However, while the Jews are forbidden to have foreign nations as allies, having the support of Gentile individuals and working with righteous Gentile individuals is certainly permitted and encouraged.
So you see, some of the things Ron stands for come right of the Bible! And all of us, Jews and Gentiles, are supposed to follow what G-d commands in the Bible.
Moral of story from Chanukah, Jews are the oil, goyim are water, oil and water don't mix. Jews and goyim don't mix. In theory Ron is right, but that's not for him to decide how to run JTF. YOU make the rules here, Chaim, and you've made it abundantly clear that Gentiles are an important part of the movement, and were important even to Rav Kahane. Ron can argue all he wants, and he can bring all the proofs in the Torah, but you make the rules of JTF. In essence, he's not necessarily arguing with the Gentiles. He's arguing with your poilicies while making them feel bad.
בס''ד
Mo, you're right, Ron disagrees with how we run JTF. Which I don't mind as long as the disagreements are civil. I agree with you, Mo, that the situation got out of hand and that's what we're changing now. There is no reason why we can't at least respect each other.
I do want to give Ron credit for something else: even though Ron thinks I'm wrong about how we run JTF, he has put that aside and invested long hours promoting our movement in Israel. When someone is willing to put aside a strong difference on an important issue because he so loves the Jewish people, that is worthy of praise in my opinion. Ron feels that all of the good that we are doing in Israel is more important than this difference of opinion that we have.
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Chaim, I don't have anything against Ron. Just as you treat him as your son, I treat him as my younger brother. He is not like the majority of Israeli youth who don't care about G-d and Eretz Yisrael, he is our real hope. We need more people like Ron. He certainly deserves a second, a third and a tenth chance. All I want is to help him not fall into some serious transgressions.
Therefore it is very painful to see how he's making a terrible mistake when he turns our friends to enemies and adds fuel to the fire of Jew-hatred of the devout antisemites.
Ron, nobody is going to depend on Gentiles. But there is absolutely no reason to increase the quantity and "quality" of the antisemites in the world. As I said, it is forbidden to test G-d's love to us. You say you don't intentionally provoke the gentiles and rely on miracles, well then you do it unintentionally. The difference is not that big, in any case, what you say may serve a good excuse and inspiration for a bunch of harlem negros or nazis to beat some New York Jews to half-death. I don't advocate cowardness, I advocate wisdom. Before waging war, a Jew needs to try some other methods. Hint to Yaakov Avinu.
Moreover, those goyim who are here are not our enemies, they are our friends. Torah does not allow us to be injust even to regular goyim, let alone to those who support us. To be injust to our gentile friends is a great Hillul Hashem, desecration of G-d's name. We don't want Gentiles think that Judaism teaches to disregard and humiliate them. It is not true.
Even if a gentile who supports us has some other weird or wrong ideas, we shouldn't shun his/her friendship. Nodoby is perfect. If he/she is not going to missionize or compromise the Jewish people, we must gratefully accept his friendship. After all, G-d is the one who sends us such person.
Ron, I recommend that you consult some respected National-Religious Rabbi concerning this issue, for example Rabbi Melamed. Only present the situation in full detail, including the facts that may be inconvinient to you.
I wish G-d bless us all, Jews and Righteous Gentiles.
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בס"ד
Ron is definately a Jewish guy I respect, but he needs to change his views about Americans And Serbians.. Many Americans and Serbians support Israel.. I hope you will accept that Ron. Insulting Americans and Serbians will not help the cause of Israel and the Jewish people.
I respect that such a young man can be so talented and knowledgable. My brother is also fluent in many languagse, including Hebrew, Spanish , Arabic. He learned at a young age. Many young child prodigies amongst our people and King David himself was but a lad when he slew Goliath.
There are some JEws I meet who hate Christians and its understandable seeing our history. But we must live in 21st century, not in olde Europe. I have been called a CHrist killer on many occasions by some ignorant honky fake Christians. Yet, I won't judge all gentiles based on a few ignorant backwards losers. I have met many Christians who are more willing to die for the Jewish people and Israel than some of secular JEws I have met around here. Some of these Jews even care nothing for Israel or hate Israel. Self-hating Jews are a major threat.. Righteous Gentiles are an important and wonderful ally for us to have.
Do you really want me to keep refuting this and explaing why I don't no so-called allies?
בס''ד
No Ron, you have explained your position more than once.
On this issue of Israel supposedly "needing" allies, I agree with Ron. His view on this issue is the Torah view:
"הן עם לבדד ישכון ובגויים לא יתחשב"
(במדבר כ"ג ט)
"Lo this is a nation that shall dwell alone and not be reckoned among the nations" (Numbers 23:9).
When Israel is alone and isolated, as in the 1967 Six Day War, she wins spectacular and miraculous victories.
But when Israel depends upon international support, like in the second Lebanon war of 2006, she loses.
Why? Because if Israel has "allies", then everyone will say, "You didn't win the war because of G-d, you won because of your allies. You won because you get foreign aid from America."
However, while the Jews are forbidden to have foreign nations as allies, having the support of Gentile individuals and working with righteous Gentile individuals is certainly permitted and encouraged.
So you see, some of the things Ron stands for come right of the Bible! And all of us, Jews and Gentiles, are supposed to follow what G-d commands in the Bible.
Moral of story from Chanukah, Jews are the oil, goyim are water, oil and water don't mix. Jews and goyim don't mix. In theory Ron is right, but that's not for him to decide how to run JTF. YOU make the rules here, Chaim, and you've made it abundantly clear that Gentiles are an important part of the movement, and were important even to Rav Kahane. Ron can argue all he wants, and he can bring all the proofs in the Torah, but you make the rules of JTF. In essence, he's not necessarily arguing with the Gentiles. He's arguing with your poilicies while making them feel bad.
בס''ד
Mo, you're right, Ron disagrees with how we run JTF. Which I don't mind as long as the disagreements are civil. I agree with you, Mo, that the situation got out of hand and that's what we're changing now. There is no reason why we can't at least respect each other.
I do want to give Ron credit for something else: even though Ron thinks I'm wrong about how we run JTF, he has put that aside and invested long hours promoting our movement in Israel. When someone is willing to put aside a strong difference on an important issue because he so loves the Jewish people, that is worthy of praise in my opinion. Ron feels that all of the good that we are doing in Israel is more important than this difference of opinion that we have.
Just to be clear, if he keeps disagreeing with you on how to run JTF, will you ever listen to him and change it? If not, what will his disagreeing with you do other than upset the goyim here and potentially drive them away along with potential members. Right or wrong, there is only so much he can do if you're set in your ways before he either gives up on the issue completely or starts his own movement. And this is NOT an attack on Ron, just an observation of how far somebody can go before they either accept a rule or leave.
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I hope we can all get along together as much as possible now. Ron you know four languages? That's really amazing.
Chaim I'm so happy that your fever is down! I hope you'll be completely well very soon!
בס''ד
Thank you so much Rubystars! You're the greatest!
You're welcome and thank you very much for saying such a nice thing.
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בס''ד
Again, my only request is that we give Ron a chance to participate in our forum without all of the arguing and acrimony of the past few days. Let's see how it works out.
I think you might be pleasantly surprised.
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Now I would like to throw my two cents and perhaps some answers can be made to help me understand the Torah point of view of having allies or not having allies etc etc.
First thing about theology. Yes, us Jews have a completely different theology from other Gentiles. To many Jews who know their theology really well, all other theologies look silly. The same goes vice versa when it is, for example, Evangelical Christians who know their theology so well that our's looks silly to them.
Second thing about allies: I believe what the Torah says. The Jew's only ally is H'shem. But perhaps H'shem sends righteous gentiles to aid Jews...not sure. Perhaps you can shed light on this.
and why do I say that Gd can send Gentiles to help Jews? Because there are righteous Gentiles that helped Jews throughout history and most recently during the Shoah. Those righteous gentiles saved Jewish lives. Where did they get the morality to do this? From their theology...even those who come from the ones which we consider silly.
Face it, many Gentiles on JTF come here for justice for the Jews...because of their morality. They learned it from their religion and their theology which caused them to fear a merciful Gd.
I pose a question to Ron, who I love ...and other Jews who have the same strong beliefs on this rule: What is the proper etiquette to a righteous Gentile who has saved a Jew's life and who wants to help save the Jewish people in the name of morality and Gd? Can a righteous Gentile be like an agent from Gd's mercy to help Jews lift themselves up?
I feel out of common sense, which isn't completely Torah, that we should honor those righteous Gentiles who have saved Jewish lives and who want to save Jewish lives...in the name of Gd and what's holy and right.
I believe this is what Chaim also believes (and correct me if I'm wrong). Basically, Ron, while many Gentiles believe in a theology that may seem silly to us, those same righteous Gentiles became righteous and fear Gd and also believe in wanting to save the Jewish people. It would be wrong to shove anything down their throat and say that the way they worship is wrong when they aren't asking us what the proper way is. Instead, we are allowed to respectfully disagree. We should love them. We should thank H'shem for sending them to us. And I think for those of us who go with the Torah view of things, as long as we thank H'shem for righteous Gentiles who deeply love the Jewish people and want to help the Jewish people bring about the Moshiach, we aren't doing any kind of Chilul H'shem..rather we are still maintaining that H'shem is helping us and not another nation.
The most important thing for our Gentile friends in this respect is that we truly love and appreciate their help and that they realize that if with their help a positive outcome takes place that it is an acknowledgement that it is the Almighty that is helping.
..and if I'm wrong, correct me...
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Thank you Dr. Dan!!!!
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Now I would like to throw my two cents and perhaps some answers can be made to help me understand the Torah point of view of having allies or not having allies etc etc.
First thing about theology. Yes, us Jews have a completely different theology from other Gentiles. To many Jews who know their theology really well, all other theologies look silly. The same goes vice versa when it is, for example, Evangelical Christians who know their theology so well that our's looks silly to them.
Second thing about allies: I believe what the Torah says. The Jew's only ally is H'shem. But perhaps H'shem sends righteous gentiles to aid Jews...not sure. Perhaps you can shed light on this.
and why do I say that Gd can send Gentiles to help Jews? Because there are righteous Gentiles that helped Jews throughout history and most recently during the Shoah. Those righteous gentiles saved Jewish lives. Where did they get the morality to do this? From their theology...even those who come from the ones which we consider silly.
Face it, many Gentiles on JTF come here for justice for the Jews...because of their morality. They learned it from their religion and their theology which caused them to fear a merciful Gd.
I pose a question to Ron, who I love ...and other Jews who have the same strong beliefs on this rule: What is the proper etiquette to a righteous Gentile who has saved a Jew's life and who wants to help save the Jewish people in the name of morality and Gd? Can a righteous Gentile be like an agent from Gd's mercy to help Jews lift themselves up?
I feel out of common sense, which isn't completely Torah, that we should honor those righteous Gentiles who have saved Jewish lives and who want to save Jewish lives...in the name of Gd and what's holy and right.
I believe this is what Chaim also believes (and correct me if I'm wrong). Basically, Ron, while many Gentiles believe in a theology that may seem silly to us, those same righteous Gentiles became righteous and fear Gd and also believe in wanting to save the Jewish people. It would be wrong to shove anything down their throat and say that the way they worship is wrong when they aren't asking us what the proper way is. Instead, we are allowed to respectfully disagree. We should love them. We should thank H'shem for sending them to us. And I think for those of us who go with the Torah view of things, as long as we thank H'shem for righteous Gentiles who deeply love the Jewish people and want to help the Jewish people bring about the Moshiach, we aren't doing any kind of Chilul H'shem..rather we are still maintaining that H'shem is helping us and not another nation.
The most important thing for our Gentile friends in this respect is that we truly love and appreciate their help and that they realize that if with their help a positive outcome takes place that it is an acknowledgement that it is the Almighty that is helping.
..and if I'm wrong, correct me...
As a side note, there are cases of righteous gentiles brought down in the gemara eg. Maseches Avoda Zarah which I was learning last shabbos. Obviously, circumstances as they are, there are Christians on this forum, and right or wrong, according to the Torah or not, that's just how it is, so it's an unwritten code of conduct here at JTF: If you decide to be a part of JTF, you don't criticize all members' religiou beliefs, and obviously don't have to agree with it, and just post, so long as there is no missionizing, we will get along. If someone is afraid of exposing themselves to different religions, which is perfectly understandable, and recommended, then he/she must do what's best him/her. Kind of pointless to argue something that won't change, especially since he/she can always leave. Take it or leave it. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
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I dont have problems if in future a Kahanist government comes to power in Israel and disallows places of worship/practise of Non-Jews (Christains and Hindus) from its territory. But will other Christian Gentile members be comfortable with it? I highly doubt. What would gladden me the most that this would be the only government in the world that will try to fight the evil, and infact set the world order right. As a Hindu Nation we will continue to have trade and business like how it was done between Hindu and Jewish kingdoms during the days of King Solomon. Also we would be glad that the guests on our shores 2000 yrs ago can finally live safely in an environment condusive to their spiritual beliefs. After all we have all been common sufferers from totalitarian ideologies of Evengalicals and Islamic jihadis.
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Darn good post, Dr. Dan.
Of course, I can't speak for RBM, and won't attempt to give an Orthodox, theological, religious response to your observations and questions.
But I would like to add my 2 cents from a mainly secular Jewish vantage.
Yes, we should be thankful for the support of our true Christian allies. We should be respectful and grateful for their friendship and help.
Part of being respectful is trying our best not to offend them, even if we find their beliefs silly and completely disagree with them.
But there's a caveat to this as well.
Out of self-respect we need not walk on eggshells for fear of offending them.
Our true Christian allies will understand that as Jews we can not and will not accept Jesus as our Lord or Saviour.
Yes, I believe we can and should work together to further our common interests with a spirit of friendship and respect.
But then again, I'm sure from a strict Torah standpoint there might be legitimate questions concerning alliances with Gentiles, even if they are righteous.
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Mo, I'm in agreement that the forum has rules that should be followed irregardless of everything else. But for Ron's benefit that while he is extremely intelligent and I love what he writes, he's still 16..and had only live for 16 years of his life may he be till 120 years. Chaim has lived 50 something years and myself 32 years...so for those of us on the forum who are older, Ron has the benefit from those of us who are more experienced in the age by reading what we have to say...it will make him and all others better people, Gd willing...and of course this movement even stronger, Gd willing.
Now I would like to throw my two cents and perhaps some answers can be made to help me understand the Torah point of view of having allies or not having allies etc etc.
First thing about theology. Yes, us Jews have a completely different theology from other Gentiles. To many Jews who know their theology really well, all other theologies look silly. The same goes vice versa when it is, for example, Evangelical Christians who know their theology so well that our's looks silly to them.
Second thing about allies: I believe what the Torah says. The Jew's only ally is H'shem. But perhaps H'shem sends righteous gentiles to aid Jews...not sure. Perhaps you can shed light on this.
and why do I say that Gd can send Gentiles to help Jews? Because there are righteous Gentiles that helped Jews throughout history and most recently during the Shoah. Those righteous gentiles saved Jewish lives. Where did they get the morality to do this? From their theology...even those who come from the ones which we consider silly.
Face it, many Gentiles on JTF come here for justice for the Jews...because of their morality. They learned it from their religion and their theology which caused them to fear a merciful Gd.
I pose a question to Ron, who I love ...and other Jews who have the same strong beliefs on this rule: What is the proper etiquette to a righteous Gentile who has saved a Jew's life and who wants to help save the Jewish people in the name of morality and Gd? Can a righteous Gentile be like an agent from Gd's mercy to help Jews lift themselves up?
I feel out of common sense, which isn't completely Torah, that we should honor those righteous Gentiles who have saved Jewish lives and who want to save Jewish lives...in the name of Gd and what's holy and right.
I believe this is what Chaim also believes (and correct me if I'm wrong). Basically, Ron, while many Gentiles believe in a theology that may seem silly to us, those same righteous Gentiles became righteous and fear Gd and also believe in wanting to save the Jewish people. It would be wrong to shove anything down their throat and say that the way they worship is wrong when they aren't asking us what the proper way is. Instead, we are allowed to respectfully disagree. We should love them. We should thank H'shem for sending them to us. And I think for those of us who go with the Torah view of things, as long as we thank H'shem for righteous Gentiles who deeply love the Jewish people and want to help the Jewish people bring about the Moshiach, we aren't doing any kind of Chilul H'shem..rather we are still maintaining that H'shem is helping us and not another nation.
The most important thing for our Gentile friends in this respect is that we truly love and appreciate their help and that they realize that if with their help a positive outcome takes place that it is an acknowledgement that it is the Almighty that is helping.
..and if I'm wrong, correct me...
As a side note, there are cases of righteous gentiles brought down in the gemara eg. Maseches Avoda Zarah which I was learning last shabbos. Obviously, circumstances as they are, there are Christians on this forum, and right or wrong, according to the Torah or not, that's just how it is, so it's an unwritten code of conduct here at JTF: If you decide to be a part of JTF, you don't criticize all members' religiou beliefs, and obviously don't have to agree with it, and just post, so long as there is no missionizing, we will get along. If someone is afraid of exposing themselves to different religions, which is perfectly understandable, and recommended, then he/she must do what's best him/her. Kind of pointless to argue something that won't change, especially since he/she can always leave. Take it or leave it. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
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Darn good post, Dr. Dan.
Of course, I can't speak for RBM, and won't attempt to give an Orthodox, theological, religious response to your observations and questions.
But I would like to add my 2 cents from a mainly secular Jewish vantage.
Yes, we should be thankful for the support of our true Christian allies. We should be respectful and grateful for their friendship and help.
Part of being respectful is trying our best not to offend them, even if we find their beliefs silly and completely disagree with them.
But there's a caveat to this as well.
Out of self-respect we need not walk on eggshells for fear of offending them.
Our true Christian allies will understand that as Jews we can not and will not accept Jesus as our Lord or Saviour.
Yes, I believe we can and should work together to further our common interests with a spirit of friendship and respect.
But then again, I'm sure from a strict Torah standpoint there might be legitimate questions concerning alliances with Gentiles, even if they are righteous.
Yes there are, but as of now, we are just reading what other people write. We'll deal with crossing the bridge of actual alliances when the time comes.
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Thank you. Again, we, as Jews have a right to disagree with foreign theologies that don't go with the Torah/Talmud etc. If we had to, we have the right to explain from the Torah's perspective why.
Because this is a Jewish movement and a movement to help Israel, righteous gentiles who are here should know that this is primary reason..
But then again, this is also a movement for righteous gentiles to help themselves keep safe.
And if this is a movement for both of us, then we must work our brains together despite these differences for a common goal.
And once those goals are accomplished, I hope that later generations will never forget the friendship and hard work between us and the righteous gentiles to get us to that point. That we will always be respectful, not fight wars with each other, and serve Gd.
Darn good post, Dr. Dan.
Of course, I can't speak for RBM, and won't attempt to give an Orthodox, theological, religious response to your observations and questions.
But I would like to add my 2 cents from a mainly secular Jewish vantage.
Yes, we should be thankful for the support of our true Christian allies. We should be respectful and grateful for their friendship and help.
Part of being respectful is trying our best not to offend them, even if we find their beliefs silly and completely disagree with them.
But there's a caveat to this as well.
Out of self-respect we need not walk on eggshells for fear of offending them.
Our true Christian allies will understand that as Jews we can not and will not accept Jesus as our Lord or Saviour.
Yes, I believe we can and should work together to further our common interests with a spirit of friendship and respect.
But then again, I'm sure from a strict Torah standpoint there might be legitimate questions concerning alliances with Gentiles, even if they are righteous.
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I do want to give Ron credit for something else: even though Ron thinks I'm wrong about how we run JTF, he has put that aside and invested long hours promoting our movement in Israel. When someone is willing to put aside a strong difference on an important issue because he so loves the Jewish people, that is worthy of praise in my opinion. Ron feels that all of the good that we are doing in Israel is more important than this difference of opinion that we have.
That's a very good point.
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So why call it Jewish Task Force? If the majority of the members aren't Jewish anyways, and we're fighting for everybody, it seems that the Jewish part doesn't matter since we're all the same.
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So why call it Jewish Task Force? If the majority of the members aren't Jewish anyways, and we're fighting for everybody, it seems that the Jewish part doesn't matter since we're all the same.
Yes but the main goal is to save Israel and it's Jews. I think it's fine the way it is.
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So why call it Jewish Task Force? If the majority of the members aren't Jewish anyways, and we're fighting for everybody, it seems that the Jewish part doesn't matter since we're all the same.
Yes but the main goal is to save Israel and it's Jews. I think it's fine the way it is.
On no, chas'v'shalom, I wasn't insinuating the name change, I was just suggesting for those other types of reasons. Forget I brought it up.
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Chaim, I don't have anything against Ron. Just as you treat him as your son, I treat him as my younger brother.
It says in the Bible: "Those who spare the rod hate their children".
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Ron is my favorite forum member. I don't see the problem with him. This is the JEWISH Task Force after all. Gentiles can give Israel support and fund settles but it's best that they look after their own country as their top priority to avoid traitor accusations. I don't think we have a problem with that though.
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without the christians, im going to be honest, the jews would be in big big trouble.
I myself am a christian, and i have to debate with my JEWSIH uncle that the jews deserve israel.
The most pro israel movement outside of israel is the evagelical christian movement, where there are alot of churches that have the israeli flag flying...
There is no debate that the jews need the christians, as the christians need the jews. We should be working togather to rid the evil aka islam which is growing very fast due to birthrates.
If the jews and the christians fall out , that just increases islams stronghold, which we can all agree would be disaster...
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But the Evangelic Christians just fund Israel because they think that it will bring us closer to the end of days of Jews and Muslims fight. People who do that don't give a crap about us. Many of the Evangelic Christians are crazy also. I've had a missionary tell me that I will go to hell for denying Jesus. I told him that I don't deny Jesus, there was a Mexican guy named Jesus, and I don't deny that he painted my house well.
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But the Evangelic Christians just fund Israel because they think that it will bring us closer to the end of days of Jews and Muslims fight. People who do that don't give a crap about us. Many of the Evangelic Christians are crazy also. I've had a missionary tell me that I will go to hell for denying Jesus. I told him that I don't deny Jesus, there was a Mexican guy named Jesus, and I don't deny that he painted my house well.
:::D
Jesus was also a Puerto Rican who trolled this forum.
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without the christians, im going to be honest, the jews would be in big big trouble.
I myself am a christian, and i have to debate with my JEWSIH uncle that the jews deserve israel.
The most pro israel movement outside of israel is the evagelical christian movement, where there are alot of churches that have the israeli flag flying...
There is no debate that the jews need the christians, as the christians need the jews. We should be working togather to rid the evil aka islam which is growing very fast due to birthrates.
If the jews and the christians fall out , that just increases islams stronghold, which we can all agree would be disaster...
I do not agree... The Jews do not need Christians... To say this is to deny the covenent which Hashem made with the Jewish people. Obviously he did not lie to us, and our strength doesn't come from Christians... It comes from Hashem, as he wrote in the Holy Torah... Once a Jew believes this BS it is the end of the Jewish people...
JEWS DON'T NEED ANY NATION TO FUFILL THE WORD OF HASHEM! Absolutely to the contrary, once the Jewish people rely on the nations it spells the end of the Jewish people...
Im sure xtians like to believe that we need them...
We survived 2000 years of persecution at the hands of the Church and we can survive much longer without the 'help' of the christians...
PS: Did the xtians 'need' the Jews to help carry out the Crusades and the Inquisition? Not really...
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Moved to Ask JTF...
CZ
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http://www.shemayisrael.com/publicat/hazon/tzedaka/proisrael.htm
Dear Friends,
How are we to relate to those Evangelical Christians who are pro-Israel, but who view our adoption of the Christian faith as their ultimate goal? The first step in the process is to be aware of our own identity and raison d’etre. Anyone who studies our Sacred Scriptures will realize that we have a spiritual raison d’etre, for we have a Covenant with Hashem, the Compassionate One, to be the people of the Torah, so that we can become a model of its teachings. A major theme of our Covenant which can guide us in our relationship with Christians is expressed in the following Divine statement in the Ten Commandments: “You shall not have other gods before Me” (Exodus 20:3). We, the people of the Torah, are to only serve the One and Unifying Creator of the Universe; thus, we are forbidden to deify any object, creature, or human being, including a Jewish human being! Throughout the centuries of our exile, the core group of our people had the strength and the courage to resist all attempts to force us through violence or persuade us with words to abandon our Covenant and accept the belief in the man that Christians deified. They called him, “The Lord and Savior”; however, we remembered the following Divine proclamation:
“I, only I, am Hashem, and there is no Savior aside from Me.” (Isaiah 43:11).
The Christians also made this man into the Messiah. In fact, the suffering that we and humanity have experienced over the centuries was the best proof that the Messiah had not yet arrived, for the prophets tell us in chapter 11 of Isaiah and in other chapters in our Scriptures that the arrival of the Messiah will inaugurate an age of universal enlightenment, unity, and shalom. We therefore realize that our task is to strive to bring the messianic age closer through spiritual renewal and good deeds. In this spirit, the Prophet Isaiah stated: “Zion shall be redeemed through justice, and those who return to her through righteousness” (Isaiah 1:27). This prophecy is a reminder of how our Covenant with Hashem emphasizes the importance of redeeming this earthly world through the Torah’s path of mitzvos – sacred deeds which help us to elevate and sanctify every area of human existence. The Christian Church, however, tried to force our people to abandon this path of mitzvos.
During periods of Christian persecution, when we were given the choice – “the cross or death” – many of our ancestors gave up their lives rather than accept Christianity. The very least we can do is to act with dignity and self-respect when relating to those Evangelical Christians that seek to persuade us to adopt their religion. Yes, many of these Christians are now concerned about the economic and physical security of Israel; however, as I shall discuss in this letter, there are aspects of their agenda which pose a threat to our spiritual security. In fact, a major theme within our Sacred Scriptures is that both our economic and physical security depends on our spiritual security! The following Divine proclamation can serve as an example:
“If you will walk in My statutes and observe My mitzvos and fulfill them; then I will provide your rains in their time, and the land will give its produce and the tree of the field will give its fruits…you will dwell securely in your land. I will provide peace in the land, and you will lie down with none to frighten you… and a sword will not cross your land. ” (Leviticus 26:3-6)
When I was living among the hippies of the East Village of Manhattan in the summer of 1970, there were a number of missionary centers that were attracting young Jews with little or no Torah education. When I visited these places, I would participate in the discussions and defend our people and our heritage when needed. Most of the Jewish hippies enjoyed hearing my defense of Judaism, and the missionaries were shocked to meet a Jew who could refute their claims through quoting Scriptures. I felt much pain when I encountered a few young Jews that had already become Christians, and this experience led me to devote my life to helping searching Jews return to their own spiritual roots. During the period when I served as the director of the Martin Steinberg Center for Jewish artists, I had dialogues with pro-Israel Evangelical Christians who desired to be friends with me, especially since my religious faith caused them to feel that they could relate to me more easily than with secular-oriented Jews. They did not openly try to “convert” me, but they believed that only those who accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior could be “saved” and be able to go to heaven. According to their theology, the Nazi murderers who accepted Jesus as their Savior could go to heaven, but the souls of their six million Jewish victims were eternally damned. My ongoing dialogues with them caused me to realize that the ultimate goal of their overtures of friendship to me and other Jews was to persuade us to adopt the Christian faith. As Kay Arthur, a prominent pro-Israel Christian minister who works with Zionist activists, said: “The Jews need conversion” (CBS 60 Minutes, Oct. 6, 2002). To achieve this goal, a number of Evangelical groups are seeking ways to get entry into Jewish communities, especially in Israel, through their support of Israel, through contributions to Israel-related causes, and through inviting Jewish groups to co-sponsor programs with them, including programs on religious themes. They also fund missionary activity among Israel’s Jewish population, especially among poor immigrants from the former Soviet Union, who have little or no Jewish education.
The leaders of the largest Evangelical community in the United States, the Southern Baptists, have publicly urged their members to target Jews for conversion, as according to their theology, we are an “unsaved” people. While they and some other Evangelical leaders have the honesty to admit that our “conversion” is the ultimate goal of their relationship with us, the current tactic of certain Evangelical leaders with a similar theology is to tell the Jewish community that they do not have missionary intentions, and that they are supporting Israel only because of their “love” and “friendship” for our people. There are some Zionist activists who believe their claim, despite the fact that the very essence of Evangelical Christianity is “evangelism” – preaching the gospel to others. In fact, two leading pro-Israel Evangelical preachers with a large following denied a rumor that they had accepted a theology advocated by some Christians called “Dual Covenant” – a theology which teaches that the Jewish people have their own covenant with God and therefore do not need to become Christians. As the Jerusalem Post reported on March 2, 2006:
Pastors John Hagee and Jerry Falwell have both denied a report in The Jerusalem Post earlier this week that they embrace the "dual covenant" theology, which holds that Jews are saved through a special relationship with God and so need not become Christians to get to heaven. In a statement to the Post, the Texas-based televangelist Hagee said that neither he nor Southern Baptist pastor Falwell "believe or teach Dual Covenant."
There are some Zionist leaders and activists who prefer to ignore the above information, due to the support, contributions, and words of admiration for our people from prominent Evangelical Christian leaders. I therefore feel that we need to understand the deeper wisdom of the following Divine mandate and apply it to our issue:
“You shall not accept a bribe, for the bribe will blind the eyes of the wise and make righteous words crooked” (Deuteronomy 16:19).
If we continue to accept “bribes” – money and flattery – from Evangelical Christian groups without reservations, then this can cause many Jews to be blind to the missionary agenda of these groups. Let us therefore remember that the souls of our people are not for sale!
Some Zionist activists argue that our growing isolation among the nations, the growing anti-Semitism, and the proclamations of the leader of Iran and some other Muslim leaders which call for the destruction of the State of Israel and its people should cause us to cooperate with Evangelical Christian groups on all levels, regardless of their missionary agenda. For example, Gilad Erdan, a member of Israel’s Knesset (legislature), was critical of the Israeli government for not doing more to promote close cooperation with these Evangelical groups. He advocated a policy that says, “We need to cooperate on all levels with Christian supporters of Israel” (The Jerusalem Post, 22 Iyar, 5767 – May 10, 2007).
I understand the great concern for our people which motivates activists like Gilad Erdan, but I do not agree that we need to cooperate with these Evangelical groups “on all levels” and thereby strengthen their ability to gain entry into our communities. In our relationship with these groups, we need to be cordial and also cautious; appreciative and also apprehensive. We need the wisdom to know when we can cooperate with these groups and when we cannot, and in my community, we consult with leading Torah sages for guidance on this issue.
Yes, we are going through a period of great danger and suffering, but these challenges should cause us to strengthen ourselves spiritually through renewing our bond with the Torah, which our Scriptures refers to as, “a tree of life” (Proverbs 3:18). Our life-giving Judaism has preserved us as a people; thus, it is harmful to our people when some Zionist activists, out of a sense of desperation, enthusiastically embrace Christian groups that seek to persuade us to replace our Judaism with their religion. These Zionist activists should therefore strengthen their faith and courage by remembering the following Divine promise that the Redeeming One gave to our people – His suffering servant, Israel:
“But you, Israel, My servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, offspring of Abraham who loved Me; you whom I shall grasp from the ends of the earth and shall summon from among all its nobles, and to whom I shall say, ‘You are My servant’ – I have chosen you and not rejected you! Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God” (Isaiah 41:8-10).
Our desire to be loved and accepted by others should not cause us to put our faith in human beings that may support us today and abandon us tomorrow, according to the needs of their own religious and/or political agenda. A reminder of this reality can be found in a press release from the National Association of Evangelicals which also appeared on their website on July 22, 2003. The press release was in response to Jewish concerns about the way Mel Gibson’s film – “The Passion” – portrayed the Jewish people, and it contained the following subtle warning:
“There is a great deal of pressure on Israel right now, and Christians seem to be a major source of support for Israel. For the Jewish leaders to risk alienating 2 billion Christians over a movie seems shortsighted.”
Regarding human promises of support, the Prophet Isaiah proclaimed:
“All flesh is like grass, and all its kindness like a blossom in the field...Grass withers and the blossom fades, but the word of our God shall stand forever.” (Isaiah 40:6,8)
Rabbi Joseph Kara, one of our classical biblical commentators, explains that the Prophet is conveying the Divine message that human promises cannot be relied upon, “but the word of our God shall stand forever.”
Let us therefore be true to ourselves and put our faith in the One Who has promised to redeem us and all humankind in the age when, “the earth will be filled with knowledge of Hashem as water covering the sea bed” (Isaiah 11:9).
Shalom,
Yosef Ben Shlomo Hakohen
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without the christians, im going to be honest, the jews would be in big big trouble.
I myself am a christian, and i have to debate with my JEWSIH uncle that the jews deserve israel.
The most pro israel movement outside of israel is the evagelical christian movement, where there are alot of churches that have the israeli flag flying...
There is no debate that the jews need the christians, as the christians need the jews. We should be working togather to rid the evil aka islam which is growing very fast due to birthrates.
If the jews and the christians fall out , that just increases islams stronghold, which we can all agree would be disaster...
I do not agree... The Jews do not need Christians... To say this is to deny the covenent which Hashem made with the Jewish people. Obviously he did not lie to us, and our strength doesn't come from Christians... It comes from Hashem, as he wrote in the Holy Torah... Once a Jew believes this BS it is the end of the Jewish people...
JEWS DON'T NEED ANY NATION TO FUFILL THE WORD OF HASHEM! Absolutely to the contrary, once the Jewish people rely on the nations it spells the end of the Jewish people...
Im sure xtians like to believe that we need them...
We survived 2000 years of persecution at the hands of the Church and we can survive much longer without the 'help' of the christians...
PS: Did the xtians 'need' the Jews to help carry out the Crusades and the Inquisition? Not really...
Well said, brother.
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If people would focus more on this LAST paragraph of your letter, Muman, then no one would have to worry about someone trying to "convert" us to their religion or beliefs and everyone would get along and be able to trust one another. Just because one group behaves and believes in what is said, doesn't mean that ALL Christians feel this way.
"Let us therefore be true to ourselves and put our faith in the One Who has promised to redeem us and all humankind in the age when, “the earth will be filled with knowledge of Hashem as water covering the sea bed” (Isaiah 11:9)."
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WOW... Well, sounds lik we got a Jew vs Christian war going on here.. Ron and Muman if you feel so strongly against CHristains why not kick them off the site and keep the site 100% Jewish. If you are going to allow them here, why insult their G-d, Messiah or whatever.
I personally live amongst plenty of goyim and I don't see CHristians knocking down the doors of Jews and converting them. There is lot of Christians here who belive in helping the Jewish people regardless of waht they believe. I know you guys bash Christians as being missionizers, and yes, there is plenty of scummy missionaries to go around the world 100 times. Yet, I find them a much less viable threat than the self-hating JEws that are trying to destroy the religion from the inside and make us hate and remove ourselves from our own identity.
But seriously, whats point of insulting Christianity Muman?? Why not kick the Christian members off if you feel so paranoid they have bad intentions..
I am meeting more and more Jews who hate Christians. My grandparents hated Christians and they would be the topic of many of their jokes. My great grandfather watched a Christian COssack knight stab my aunt to death and she died in his arms as the Cossack shouted "Christ killer!". Yes, I know why Jews and Christians hate each other.
WHo knows maybe one day there will be a war between Jews and Christians. I hope to G-d not.. Many CHristians are my friends and they seem to be willing to die defending me.. They don't care whether I believe JEsus walked on water or if I celebrate Yom Kippur instead of Easter. As far as I know, I feel happier around lot of the goyim wher eI live then the self-hating Jews who go around shouting "Free Palest-ine".
But, can I deny the atrocities that Christians have done aginst Jews over the year? NEVER! yeS, I know Hitler was a devout Catholic along with the Jesuits and other CHristians. Does Hitler and Jesuits reflect the other billions of Christians throughout history?
I do see some of my Jewish brothers insutling Chrsitains as being lying missionaries. BUt it doesn't bother them when they go and start screaming, "Jesus is Son of a Whore!" I wonder why we have the double-standard? We say that Christians cannot missionize JEws, yet I see many Chabadniks and other devoted Jews, going to Christains and shouting such derogatory statements against Christians. In effect I have seen many devoted Jews missionizing Christians and convincing them to be Noachides. They put as much effort proving to them Jesus is a fraud and a lie as Christian missionaries do to JEws telling them Jesus is the Jewish Messiah.
What can I say, Jews and Christians are age old enemies. So are Jews and Muslims. I personally believe it is hard, especially with religious nationalists like Ron and Muman for there to be any friendship between Jews and Christians. I am not a religious Jew and I was raised in a secular environment, so it was easier for me to adapt to culture of gentiles. My grandparents on the other hand were greatly persecuted by Christians and refuse to have any close Christian friend. They didn't mind gentiles who were non-Christian, but any religious Christian was despised by them.
I am just wondering with Christian hating posts like those of Muman, is it wise for us to keep gentiles here? I mean, all we may do is cause anger and more seperation. As you know, us Jews are not so popular around the globe and by insulting CHristian faith, we are not doing much to win any sympathy.
Muman, you say us JEws don't need Christians... Was it other Jews who saved from the King of Babylon or was it the Zoroasterian King Kouresh? Was it Jews who liberated us from the concentration camps, or was it the mainly Christian and Communist soldiers of USA, UK and Russia? I know Hashem is the greatest power of the world and that all is done by his Will. I know that Hashem may use goyim to benefit the JEwish people and to help reestablish the throne of Zion and the Greater Israelite Empire. NOnetheless, I don't believe we should be arrogant or think of our selves as better than we are in our current situation.
Little Israel is the size of a poppy seed on the map and our resources are minimal. We do need support of other nations to help in our pursuits of conquest. If we make ourself hated by the world , more than we are, it will not benefit Israel in its conquest over mUslims.
I think starting a war with Christians is bad move... I say this to Muman and Ron.. But, perhaps its inevitable that JEws and CHristans one day will go to war. For example, I don't know Chaim's stance, but if religious JEws retake Jerusalem and the land of Israel and we ban gentiles from visiting or praying there, what is to say we will not invoke another Crusade War? Israel is also very holy to the Christian poeple and by prohibiting them from worshipping there, we have done the same that the Muslims have done back in the dark ages. I think a bloody war is inevitable in this circumstance.
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WOW... Well, sounds lik we got a Jew vs Christian war going on here.. Ron and Muman if you feel so strongly against CHristains why not kick them off the site and keep the site 100% Jewish. If you are going to allow them here, why insult their G-d, Messiah or whatever.
I personally live amongst plenty of goyim and I don't see CHristians knocking down the doors of Jews and converting them. There is lot of Christians here who belive in helping the Jewish people regardless of waht they believe. I know you guys bash Christians as being missionizers, and yes, there is plenty of scummy missionaries to go around the world 100 times. Yet, I find them a much less viable threat than the self-hating JEws that are trying to destroy the religion from the inside and make us hate and remove ourselves from our own identity.
But seriously, whats point of insulting Christianity Muman?? Why not kick the Christian members off if you feel so paranoid they have bad intentions..
I am meeting more and more Jews who hate Christians. My grandparents hated Christians and they would be the topic of many of their jokes. My great grandfather watched a Christian COssack knight stab my aunt to death and she died in his arms as the Cossack shouted "Christ killer!". Yes, I know why Jews and Christians hate each other.
WHo knows maybe one day there will be a war between Jews and Christians. I hope to G-d not.. Many CHristians are my friends and they seem to be willing to die defending me.. They don't care whether I believe JEsus walked on water or if I celebrate Yom Kippur instead of Easter. As far as I know, I feel happier around lot of the goyim wher eI live then the self-hating Jews who go around shouting "Free Palest-ine".
But, can I deny the atrocities that Christians have done aginst Jews over the year? NEVER! yeS, I know Hitler was a devout Catholic along with the Jesuits and other CHristians. Does Hitler and Jesuits reflect the other billions of Christians throughout history?
I do see some of my Jewish brothers insutling Chrsitains as being lying missionaries. BUt it doesn't bother them when they go and start screaming, "Jesus is Son of a Whore!" I wonder why we have the double-standard? We say that Christians cannot missionize JEws, yet I see many Chabadniks and other devoted Jews, going to Christains and shouting such derogatory statements against Christians. In effect I have seen many devoted Jews missionizing Christians and convincing them to be Noachides. They put as much effort proving to them Jesus is a fraud and a lie as Christian missionaries do to JEws telling them Jesus is the Jewish Messiah.
What can I say, Jews and Christians are age old enemies. So are Jews and Muslims. I personally believe it is hard, especially with religious nationalists like Ron and Muman for there to be any friendship between Jews and Christians. I am not a religious Jew and I was raised in a secular environment, so it was easier for me to adapt to culture of gentiles. My grandparents on the other hand were greatly persecuted by Christians and refuse to have any close Christian friend. They didn't mind gentiles who were non-Christian, but any religious Christian was despised by them.
I am just wondering with Christian hating posts like those of Muman, is it wise for us to keep gentiles here? I mean, all we may do is cause anger and more seperation. As you know, us Jews are not so popular around the globe and by insulting CHristian faith, we are not doing much to win any sympathy.
Muman, you say us JEws don't need Christians... Was it other Jews who saved from the King of Babylon or was it the Zoroasterian King Kouresh? Was it Jews who liberated us from the concentration camps, or was it the mainly Christian and Communist soldiers of USA, UK and Russia? I know Hashem is the greatest power of the world and that all is done by his Will. I know that Hashem may use goyim to benefit the JEwish people and to help reestablish the throne of Zion and the Greater Israelite Empire. NOnetheless, I don't believe we should be arrogant or think of our selves as better than we are in our current situation.
Little Israel is the size of a poppy seed on the map and our resources are minimal. We do need support of other nations to help in our pursuits of conquest. If we make ourself hated by the world , more than we are, it will not benefit Israel in its conquest over mUslims.
I think starting a war with Christians is bad move... I say this to Muman and Ron.. But, perhaps its inevitable that JEws and CHristans one day will go to war. For example, I don't know Chaim's stance, but if religious JEws retake Jerusalem and the land of Israel and we ban gentiles from visiting or praying there, what is to say we will not invoke another Crusade War? Israel is also very holy to the Christian poeple and by prohibiting them from worshipping there, we have done the same that the Muslims have done back in the dark ages. I think a bloody war is inevitable in this circumstance.
Buddy, what's so hard about the fact that Jews SHOULD ONLY RELY ON HASHEM?
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I believe that this debate is now over. The Christians now here on this forum are not responsible for what happened to our relatives in times past, they are doing what the Bible says "Blessing the Jews" --So they will be blessed
I like that Ron is a warrior type, for 16 years old, so he deserves patience and our love. I believe that righteous gentiles deserve the love of the Jewish people.
Israel does NOT need America, we have been TERRIBLE to Israel, TERRIBLE. EVIL. America WILL pay for this evil.
I am glad that we straightened this out, I think it is over, right??
G-d BLESS you ALL. I know many of you for YEARS. And I LOVE you.
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without the christians, im going to be honest, the jews would be in big big trouble.
I myself am a christian, and i have to debate with my JEWSIH uncle that the jews deserve israel.
The most pro israel movement outside of israel is the evagelical christian movement, where there are alot of churches that have the israeli flag flying...
There is no debate that the jews need the christians, as the christians need the jews. We should be working togather to rid the evil aka islam which is growing very fast due to birthrates.
If the jews and the christians fall out , that just increases islams stronghold, which we can all agree would be disaster...
I do not agree... The Jews do not need Christians... To say this is to deny the covenent which Hashem made with the Jewish people. Obviously he did not lie to us, and our strength doesn't come from Christians... It comes from Hashem, as he wrote in the Holy Torah... Once a Jew believes this BS it is the end of the Jewish people...
JEWS DON'T NEED ANY NATION TO FUFILL THE WORD OF HASHEM! Absolutely to the contrary, once the Jewish people rely on the nations it spells the end of the Jewish people...
Im sure xtians like to believe that we need them...
We survived 2000 years of persecution at the hands of the Church and we can survive much longer without the 'help' of the christians...
PS: Did the xtians 'need' the Jews to help carry out the Crusades and the Inquisition? Not really...
Obviously, I agree 100%, but with all the self hating/secular Jews today, how many do you think believe in Hashem or even acknowledge his help? Seriously. It's just a bad predicament we are in now because of all the chilonim. Especially the land of Israel which kisses U.S. tuchus. Do you think those treacherous bolsheviks care enough about Hashem, Emunah, or even Yiras Shomayim? It's so sad that this is what jewry has come to: Jews convince themselves they need PEOPLE and have a lack of faith in Hashem or don't believe in him at all. This is just years of assimilation.
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Jews need Hashem and only Hashem. But I believe Hashem uses people and nations as tools to fulfill his Will for Israel and Jewish people.
Well, I suppose if we put our minds to it, we could become self-sufficient. But DAMN IT , not with that little pea size piece of land we have. We are very resourceful and innovative and can make gardens from sand dunes and I know we have the potential.
HOwever, I still see a lack of answers to my original questions. Was it Jewish people who freed us from the claws of the Chaldeans? Was it not the Persians who came to our aid? Who sent the PErsians to aid us, it was Hashem! NOnetheless, we did not free ourselves, even our Prophet said not to resist the Chaldeans, that if we did, we would die. THis was a punishment due to Israel's lack of faith at the time. Israel needed Teshuva and the only way it was achieved was through suffering and even needing assistance from a foreign nation.
Now, in the holocaust, we JEws didn't help ourselves. We walked into the death camps. What would have happened to our race had we told the allies to not free us or if they did not bother fighting against the Germans and liberating those camps? YOu say we didn't need any help of the gentiles, well then was it Jews who freed Auschwitz or Daschau? Can you answer.
I know Hashem willed that the goyim helped us through these situations. Israel is at a time were self-sufficiency is on the horizon, but with that little piece of land and shunning all foreign support, I think we are cutting off our legs. We cannot support the large amount of people who live in that land, especially in 50 years from now when our population will increase much more, due to high birth rate.
I wonder how deeply some people here think about these issues?
I am not saying that we should rely on USA government.. I have said from the beginning RepubliCONS and DemoCRAPS are our enemies, not your friends. But lets not deny all the RIGHTEOUS GENTILES who laid down their life and have worked hard to support the Jewish cause.
I see some members here like MasterWolf, CJD, IrishZionist who are gentiles who devote all their heart to helping the Jewish people. Muman I like to ask, how do you think insulting Christianity and Jesus makes people these members feel? If they were to say similiar things about Judaism, would you not be quick to be on the attack?
I think Israel can be an indepedent nation.. But if we become isolationists and shun all non-Jews in the world we will stir up global hatred and if the world is against Israel, I don't feel we are fulfilling the Mitzvot Hashem has given to us and our nation. I am not a religious expert, but is there not a part in Torah where it says all nations will come to worship on my holy mountain? Shouldn't goyim be allowed to worship the G-d of Israel as well and we respect them? Can we assume every gentile is a lying cheating missionary type? Is insulting a Christian and his faith not missionary like?
I am trying to be fair and subjective here. There is nothing I want more than an indepedent ZIonist JEwish nation free of muslims, liberals, homosexuals and all filth. I know its possible. But being proud and arrogant will be self-destructive.
How many Jews who say that we don't need anything from gentiles, live in a country ruled by gentiles? Do you drive a car manufactured by gentiles? When your heater or toilet breaks, do you call a Jew to fix it? DId a Jew or gentile invent your light bulb or many of the other modern amenities you utilize? I am not saying Jews cannot invent it, but for us to be tottaly independent, means we dismiss many great ideas that already exist in the world. We can build upon the inventions of gentiles as well.. That still requires cohabitation and communication.
For those of you who live in Israel and use all Israeli products, then I think you can keep this argument. I think gentiles have benefited greatly from Jewish innovations. For being a small group of people, the Jewish people boast perhaps more inventions than any other race. But I do not dismiss the great achievements and innovations that gentiles have made as well.. TO say we cannot benefit from them, to me is foolish.
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Hey I never insulted Christianity... Where do you get this from? I simply stated that Jews don't NEED Christians, it is not part of the Prophecy nor the destiny of the Jewish people. Do not accuse me of hating Gentiles or non-Jews... Whenever this issue comes up I end up getting blamed for things which I never said.
I get along just fine with my non-Jewish friends. I have no problem working in a mixed environment with people from all kinds of backgrounds. But I learn Torah and what I learn is that historically the non-Jews, especially Christians, have not been our friends. Maybe things have changed and time will tell... I hope that this is the case... But we certainly do not NEED them...
Did we need them when Pharoah imposed harsh slavery on our people in Egypt? Did they lift a finger when my people were being slaughtered in the Ukraine during pogroms? Did they care about Jewish life when they went on Crusdades and Inquisitions? Not really... So History is the greatest teacher, and Hashem works his hand through History... I will place my trust in Hashem, and not the non-Jewish world....
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Israel is also very holy to the Christian poeple and by prohibiting them from worshipping there, we have done the same that the Muslims have done back in the dark ages. I think a bloody war is inevitable in this circumstance.
this is exactly what i mentioned in my previous post. As a Gentile arent people supposed to love and support the Jewish people unconditionally? If the support is only to be up against Islam, then i dont think it is a true support. I'm quite sure a kahanist government will make sure the Non-Jews will have restrcition on their worship in the jewish state, which is absolutely right. The jews deserve their space and we non-jews owe it to them big time, specially the christians and muslims who almost took the places of worship of jews and made it their own. According to me for a Gentile or Noachide should have no problems in staying away from claiming their places of worship in Israel. Cant they make a sacrifice for the Jews, wouldnt G-d really bless them if they do this? Ultimately we will have to draw a line somewhere.
JTF is open to righteous Gentiles and will always be. It is upto the Gentiles to conduct themself as one, make sacrifice for the Jewish people, even if you dont get to worship at your religious places is Israel.
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בס"ד
DTI and HZ, let's sum up the Gentiles living in Eretz Israel thing by saying that according to Torah, only a Ger Toshav, Ger Tzedek (who is already Jewish) and Ger Nigrar (I think, correct me Muman) is allowed to stay here. And Avodah Zara is FORBBIDEN to be here, in any circumstences.
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without the christians, im going to be honest, the jews would be in big big trouble.
It is forbidden for a Jew to have such an attitude. It simply isn't true. God is who the Jews rely on.
That being said, we appreciate the help and support of good people who want to do what's right.
I myself am a christian, and i have to debate with my JEWSIH uncle that the jews deserve israel.
So? There are other Jews like those at JTF and most in Israel who instinctively know that we deserve our own homeland. What does it change about that equation that you agree or disagree?
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Jews will survive with or without Christians. But to make enemies and shun support of our brethren around the world is not to our advantage in anyway. I do know one day, when the Greater Israelite empire is re-established and the arab nazi swine are pushed back into Saudi Arabia, Israel will become the greatest superpower on the earth. In those days, all nations will come to Israel for support. I can see this in the future and I know it is prophesied.
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Israel is also very holy to the Christian poeple and by prohibiting them from worshipping there, we have done the same that the Muslims have done back in the dark ages. I think a bloody war is inevitable in this circumstance.
this is exactly what i mentioned in my previous post. As a Gentile arent people supposed to love and support the Jewish people unconditionally? If the support is only to be up against Islam, then i dont think it is a true support. I'm quite sure a kahanist government will make sure the Non-Jews will have restrcition on their worship in the jewish state, which is absolutely right. The jews deserve their space and we non-jews owe it to them big time, specially the christians and muslims who almost took the places of worship of jews and made it their own. According to me for a Gentile or Noachide should have no problems in staying away from claiming their places of worship in Israel. Cant they make a sacrifice for the Jews, wouldnt G-d really bless them if they do this? Ultimately we will have to draw a line somewhere.
JTF is open to righteous Gentiles and will always be. It is upto the Gentiles to conduct themself as one, make sacrifice for the Jewish people, even if you dont get to worship at your religious places is Israel.
Hindu Zionist, I could not agree with you more and feel the same way!
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Hey I never insulted Christianity... Where do you get this from? I simply stated that Jews don't NEED Christians, it is not part of the Prophecy nor the destiny of the Jewish people. Do not accuse me of hating Gentiles or non-Jews... Whenever this issue comes up I end up getting blamed for things which I never said.
I get along just fine with my non-Jewish friends. I have no problem working in a mixed environment with people from all kinds of backgrounds. But I learn Torah and what I learn is that historically the non-Jews, especially Christians, have not been our friends. Maybe things have changed and time will tell... I hope that this is the case... But we certainly do not NEED them...
Did we need them when Pharoah imposed harsh slavery on our people in Egypt? Did they lift a finger when my people were being slaughtered in the Ukraine during pogroms? Did they care about Jewish life when they went on Crusdades and Inquisitions? Not really... So History is the greatest teacher, and Hashem works his hand through History... I will place my trust in Hashem, and not the non-Jewish world....
If we choose not to go to Israel, we will need Christians, Muman.
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Hey I never insulted Christianity... Where do you get this from? I simply stated that Jews don't NEED Christians, it is not part of the Prophecy nor the destiny of the Jewish people. Do not accuse me of hating Gentiles or non-Jews... Whenever this issue comes up I end up getting blamed for things which I never said.
I get along just fine with my non-Jewish friends. I have no problem working in a mixed environment with people from all kinds of backgrounds. But I learn Torah and what I learn is that historically the non-Jews, especially Christians, have not been our friends. Maybe things have changed and time will tell... I hope that this is the case... But we certainly do not NEED them...
Did we need them when Pharoah imposed harsh slavery on our people in Egypt? Did they lift a finger when my people were being slaughtered in the Ukraine during pogroms? Did they care about Jewish life when they went on Crusdades and Inquisitions? Not really... So History is the greatest teacher, and Hashem works his hand through History... I will place my trust in Hashem, and not the non-Jewish world....
If we choose not to go to Israel,
What?
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Hey I never insulted Christianity... Where do you get this from? I simply stated that Jews don't NEED Christians, it is not part of the Prophecy nor the destiny of the Jewish people. Do not accuse me of hating Gentiles or non-Jews... Whenever this issue comes up I end up getting blamed for things which I never said.
I get along just fine with my non-Jewish friends. I have no problem working in a mixed environment with people from all kinds of backgrounds. But I learn Torah and what I learn is that historically the non-Jews, especially Christians, have not been our friends. Maybe things have changed and time will tell... I hope that this is the case... But we certainly do not NEED them...
Did we need them when Pharoah imposed harsh slavery on our people in Egypt? Did they lift a finger when my people were being slaughtered in the Ukraine during pogroms? Did they care about Jewish life when they went on Crusdades and Inquisitions? Not really... So History is the greatest teacher, and Hashem works his hand through History... I will place my trust in Hashem, and not the non-Jewish world....
If we choose not to go to Israel, we will need Christians, Muman.
"We" meaning collectively the Jewish people don't have any right to make any such choice. We are commanded with a positive mitzvah to settle the land of Israel, and according to Nachmanides and many rishonim, a mitzvah to conquer the land in every generation. So if we choose not to live up to our national mission that G-d commanded us to do and gave us the lofty responsibility to carry out, there is NO ONE that can save us from ourselves. May G-d have mercy. We the Jewish people must shoulder this great burden and great privilege to carry out the Divine command, and we will be punished for abstaining from doing so. At that point it doesn't matter what anyone does because we have failed. We fail ourselves and fail the entire world, G-d forbid.
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Hey I never insulted Christianity... Where do you get this from? I simply stated that Jews don't NEED Christians, it is not part of the Prophecy nor the destiny of the Jewish people. Do not accuse me of hating Gentiles or non-Jews... Whenever this issue comes up I end up getting blamed for things which I never said.
I get along just fine with my non-Jewish friends. I have no problem working in a mixed environment with people from all kinds of backgrounds. But I learn Torah and what I learn is that historically the non-Jews, especially Christians, have not been our friends. Maybe things have changed and time will tell... I hope that this is the case... But we certainly do not NEED them...
Did we need them when Pharoah imposed harsh slavery on our people in Egypt? Did they lift a finger when my people were being slaughtered in the Ukraine during pogroms? Did they care about Jewish life when they went on Crusdades and Inquisitions? Not really... So History is the greatest teacher, and Hashem works his hand through History... I will place my trust in Hashem, and not the non-Jewish world....
If we choose not to go to Israel, we will need Christians, Muman.
"We" meaning collectively the Jewish people don't have any right to make any such choice. We are commanded with a positive mitzvah to settle the land of Israel, and according to Nachmanides and many rishonim, a mitzvah to conquer the land in every generation. So if we choose not to live up to our national mission that G-d commanded us to do and gave us the lofty responsibility to carry out, there is NO ONE that can save us from ourselves. May G-d have mercy. We the Jewish people must shoulder this great burden and great privilege to carry out the Divine command, and we will be punished for abstaining from doing so. At that point it doesn't matter what anyone does because we have failed. We fail ourselves and fail the entire world, G-d forbid.
Dont take me wrong, Kahane.. IF Jewish people STAY in Christian nations, they will cont' to rely on Christians. I dont care one way or another, I have all types of friends, and rely first on G-d. but, if Muman, Mord, David Ben Moshe, myself ETC stay here, it is inevitible that we will support good Christians, and they support us, IF they love us. I see it more as a give and take, nothing deeper was meant when I said that.
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בס"ד
Hey I never insulted Christianity... Where do you get this from? I simply stated that Jews don't NEED Christians, it is not part of the Prophecy nor the destiny of the Jewish people. Do not accuse me of hating Gentiles or non-Jews... Whenever this issue comes up I end up getting blamed for things which I never said.
I get along just fine with my non-Jewish friends. I have no problem working in a mixed environment with people from all kinds of backgrounds. But I learn Torah and what I learn is that historically the non-Jews, especially Christians, have not been our friends. Maybe things have changed and time will tell... I hope that this is the case... But we certainly do not NEED them...
Did we need them when Pharoah imposed harsh slavery on our people in Egypt? Did they lift a finger when my people were being slaughtered in the Ukraine during pogroms? Did they care about Jewish life when they went on Crusdades and Inquisitions? Not really... So History is the greatest teacher, and Hashem works his hand through History... I will place my trust in Hashem, and not the non-Jewish world....
If we choose not to go to Israel, we will need Christians, Muman.
"We" meaning collectively the Jewish people don't have any right to make any such choice. We are commanded with a positive mitzvah to settle the land of Israel, and according to Nachmanides and many rishonim, a mitzvah to conquer the land in every generation. So if we choose not to live up to our national mission that G-d commanded us to do and gave us the lofty responsibility to carry out, there is NO ONE that can save us from ourselves. May G-d have mercy. We the Jewish people must shoulder this great burden and great privilege to carry out the Divine command, and we will be punished for abstaining from doing so. At that point it doesn't matter what anyone does because we have failed. We fail ourselves and fail the entire world, G-d forbid.
Dont take me wrong, Kahane.. IF Jewish people STAY in Christian nations, they will cont' to rely on Christians. I dont care one way or another, I have all types of friends, and rely first on G-d. but, if Muman, Mord, David Ben Moshe, myself ETC stay here, it is inevitible that we will support good Christians, and they support us, IF they love us. I see it more as a give and take, nothing deeper was meant when I said that.
Wait wait let me understand something, are you choosing to commit a major sin?
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If anyone needs or wants my support, please PM me or contact me, thankyou.
I need your support, also.
Hey I never insulted Christianity... Where do you get this from? I simply stated that Jews don't NEED Christians, it is not part of the Prophecy nor the destiny of the Jewish people. Do not accuse me of hating Gentiles or non-Jews... Whenever this issue comes up I end up getting blamed for things which I never said.
I get along just fine with my non-Jewish friends. I have no problem working in a mixed environment with people from all kinds of backgrounds. But I learn Torah and what I learn is that historically the non-Jews, especially Christians, have not been our friends. Maybe things have changed and time will tell... I hope that this is the case... But we certainly do not NEED them...
Did we need them when Pharoah imposed harsh slavery on our people in Egypt? Did they lift a finger when my people were being slaughtered in the Ukraine during pogroms? Did they care about Jewish life when they went on Crusdades and Inquisitions? Not really... So History is the greatest teacher, and Hashem works his hand through History... I will place my trust in Hashem, and not the non-Jewish world....
If we choose not to go to Israel, we will need Christians, Muman.
"We" meaning collectively the Jewish people don't have any right to make any such choice. We are commanded with a positive mitzvah to settle the land of Israel, and according to Nachmanides and many rishonim, a mitzvah to conquer the land in every generation. So if we choose not to live up to our national mission that G-d commanded us to do and gave us the lofty responsibility to carry out, there is NO ONE that can save us from ourselves. May G-d have mercy. We the Jewish people must shoulder this great burden and great privilege to carry out the Divine command, and we will be punished for abstaining from doing so. At that point it doesn't matter what anyone does because we have failed. We fail ourselves and fail the entire world, G-d forbid.
Dont take me wrong, Kahane.. IF Jewish people STAY in Christian nations, they will cont' to rely on Christians. I dont care one way or another, I have all types of friends, and rely first on G-d. but, if Muman, Mord, David Ben Moshe, myself ETC stay here, it is inevitible that we will support good Christians, and they support us, IF they love us. I see it more as a give and take, nothing deeper was meant when I said that.
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If anyone needs or wants my support, please PM me or contact me, thankyou.
I need your support, also.
Hey I never insulted Christianity... Where do you get this from? I simply stated that Jews don't NEED Christians, it is not part of the Prophecy nor the destiny of the Jewish people. Do not accuse me of hating Gentiles or non-Jews... Whenever this issue comes up I end up getting blamed for things which I never said.
I get along just fine with my non-Jewish friends. I have no problem working in a mixed environment with people from all kinds of backgrounds. But I learn Torah and what I learn is that historically the non-Jews, especially Christians, have not been our friends. Maybe things have changed and time will tell... I hope that this is the case... But we certainly do not NEED them...
Did we need them when Pharoah imposed harsh slavery on our people in Egypt? Did they lift a finger when my people were being slaughtered in the Ukraine during pogroms? Did they care about Jewish life when they went on Crusdades and Inquisitions? Not really... So History is the greatest teacher, and Hashem works his hand through History... I will place my trust in Hashem, and not the non-Jewish world....
If we choose not to go to Israel, we will need Christians, Muman.
"We" meaning collectively the Jewish people don't have any right to make any such choice. We are commanded with a positive mitzvah to settle the land of Israel, and according to Nachmanides and many rishonim, a mitzvah to conquer the land in every generation. So if we choose not to live up to our national mission that G-d commanded us to do and gave us the lofty responsibility to carry out, there is NO ONE that can save us from ourselves. May G-d have mercy. We the Jewish people must shoulder this great burden and great privilege to carry out the Divine command, and we will be punished for abstaining from doing so. At that point it doesn't matter what anyone does because we have failed. We fail ourselves and fail the entire world, G-d forbid.
Dont take me wrong, Kahane.. IF Jewish people STAY in Christian nations, they will cont' to rely on Christians. I dont care one way or another, I have all types of friends, and rely first on G-d. but, if Muman, Mord, David Ben Moshe, myself ETC stay here, it is inevitible that we will support good Christians, and they support us, IF they love us. I see it more as a give and take, nothing deeper was meant when I said that.
We love you Hanna.
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MO- Hanna is a wonderful lady, truly. She is such a help. I have nazis ALL over my blog, and she has helped me fight these maniacs. She is welsome in MY home ANYTIME. She is truly a righteous gentile, and so filled with love and life. G-d was happy the day he made Hanna.
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...thankyou MO and AsheDina...... :-[ I hope I can measure up.... ;D
I will be back to do more battles with that Incogman, in the future, he really needs to repent.... >:(
I am going to pray for him for a while and see what happens...
I ask God to help me every day, to become more righteous..I mess up alot...
If there is anyone here on JTF that I have hurt or upset in any way, please forgive me, also.
My entire life I have tried to help others....
God bless you both.
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My heart and soul will reside in Israel some day soon. I cannot fathom not being there... But in the meantime I will continue to have relations with non-Jews... I don't rely on them, but my Parnasa is from Hashem. Hashem has given me skills which have provided me with many opportunities. It may be that these skills will make me valuable in Israel soon...
I dont rely on gentiles but those who know me know that when I am with them that Hashem is with me.
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...thankyou MO and AsheDina...... :-[ I hope I can measure up.... ;D
I will be back to do more battles with that Incogman, in the future, he really needs to repent.... >:(
I am going to pray for him for a while and see what happens...
I ask G-d to help me every day, to become more righteous..I mess up alot...
If there is anyone here on JTF that I have hurt or upset in any way, please forgive me, also.
My entire life I have tried to help others....
G-d bless you both.
You still relate to Ingogman?!?! That bastard has railed against me because I stood up for Paulette...
I would smite that bastard if he were in my presence.
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What do you mean "you still relate to incogman"? He treated me like he treated Paulette, you did not stand up to him for me....he railed against me and i railed against him too.
I told him to repent...
etc.
...thankyou MO and AsheDina...... :-[ I hope I can measure up.... ;D
I will be back to do more battles with that Incogman, in the future, he really needs to repent.... >:(
I am going to pray for him for a while and see what happens...
I ask G-d to help me every day, to become more righteous..I mess up alot...
If there is anyone here on JTF that I have hurt or upset in any way, please forgive me, also.
My entire life I have tried to help others....
G-d bless you both.
You still relate to Ingogman?!?! That bastard has railed against me because I stood up for Paulette...
I would smite that bastard if he were in my presence.
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But in the meantime I will continue to have relations with non-Jews
Nice :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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MO- Hanna is a wonderful lady, truly. She is such a help. I have nazis ALL over my blog, and she has helped me fight these maniacs. She is welsome in MY home ANYTIME. She is truly a righteous gentile, and so filled with love and life. G-d was happy the day he made Hanna.
Could not agree more. A true gentle soul.
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But in the meantime I will continue to have relations with non-Jews
Nice :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Duh!
I did not mean relations in that meaning, like knowing them.... The kind of relations I have involve commerce, work relations, and friendship relations. I do not eat with many non-Jews because of my keeping Kosher... But I think you know what I meant...
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I wish I had more time to do everything I'd like to do. I took a break from beating up on Incog Man for a while because quite frankly I can only read so much of his BS at one time before it makes me feel ill.
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yes, I yelled at him several times, it did no good, rofl...I think if we all prayed for him, it would do more good...such a hard heart he has....like Pharoh.
I wish I had more time to do everything I'd like to do. I took a break from beating up on Incog Man for a while because quite frankly I can only read so much of his BS at one time before it makes me feel ill.
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But in the meantime I will continue to have relations with non-Jews
Nice :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Duh!
I did not mean relations in that meaning, like knowing them.... The kind of relations I have involve commerce, work relations, and friendship relations. I do not eat with many non-Jews because of my keeping Kosher... But I think you know what I meant...
You set yourself for that one,lol. :P :P :P :P
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I just had an irony flash. The Jewish tradition and laws are very isolationist. It seems like everything has to be kept separated without blending or merging. Jews must be separated from gentiles, men and women must at certain times separate. There are even mitzvas forbidding the creation of hybrid animals and plants, and even fabrics cannot be made of wool and cotton together.
The irony is that in our history, we have become entangled and intertwine with other nations and other affairs, and other ideologies, probably more then any other nation.
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I just had an irony flash. The Jewish tradition and laws are very isolationist. It seems like everything has to be kept separated without blending or merging. Jews must be separated from gentiles, men and women must at certain times separate. There are even mitzvas forbidding the creation of hybrid animals and plants, and even fabrics cannot be made of wool and cotton together.
The irony is that in our history, we have become entangled and intertwine with other nations and other affairs, and other ideologies, probably more then any other nation.
I dont know if I agree with you on this.... The Jewish people, until this last century, have been isolated by the host countries in which they lived. In my great-grandparents days no Jew would marry a non-Jew... Back in Ukraine the Jews lived in their own villiages, not only because of tradition, but because they were not welcome in the non-Jewish villiages. The Jewish people until recently have been a nation seperated from the other nations. Only in the last century have Jews come to America and been able to move up.
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I just had an irony flash. The Jewish tradition and laws are very isolationist. It seems like everything has to be kept separated without blending or merging. Jews must be separated from gentiles, men and women must at certain times separate. There are even mitzvas forbidding the creation of hybrid animals and plants, and even fabrics cannot be made of wool and cotton together.
The irony is that in our history, we have become entangled and intertwine with other nations and other affairs, and other ideologies, probably more then any other nation.
I dont know if I agree with you on this.... The Jewish people, until this last century, have been isolated by the host countries in which they lived. In my great-grandparents days no Jew would marry a non-Jew... Back in Ukraine the Jews lived in their own villiages, not only because of tradition, but because they were not welcome in the non-Jewish villiages. The Jewish people until recently have been a nation seperated from the other nations. Only in the last century have Jews come to America and been able to move up.
You are right that for the most part we maintained separated communities in the exile. Nevertheless we become a class within gentile society
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I just had an irony flash. The Jewish tradition and laws are very isolationist. It seems like everything has to be kept separated without blending or merging. Jews must be separated from gentiles, men and women must at certain times separate. There are even mitzvas forbidding the creation of hybrid animals and plants, and even fabrics cannot be made of wool and cotton together.
The irony is that in our history, we have become entangled and intertwine with other nations and other affairs, and other ideologies, probably more then any other nation.
I dont know if I agree with you on this.... The Jewish people, until this last century, have been isolated by the host countries in which they lived. In my great-grandparents days no Jew would marry a non-Jew... Back in Ukraine the Jews lived in their own villiages, not only because of tradition, but because they were not welcome in the non-Jewish villiages. The Jewish people until recently have been a nation seperated from the other nations. Only in the last century have Jews come to America and been able to move up.
And look at the damage it's done.
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One thing I dont agree with the attitude of some members here is that they rebuke and debate with gentiles instead of teaching them and serving an example,
and with this they draw away many people, because nobody wants to be criticized and yelled at.
This forum had a unique quality of being patient and guiding to the gentiles, and this is how we got so many gentile members supporting us.
Unfortunately we are losing this quality because some people prefer to be self-righteous instead of patient and many members are conspiring to leave.
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One thing I dont agree with the attitude of some members here is that they rebuke and debate with gentiles instead of teaching them and serving an example,
and with this they draw away many people, because nobody wants to be criticized and yelled at.
This forum had a unique quality of being patient and guiding to the gentiles, and this is how we got so many gentile members supporting us.
Unfortunately we are losing this quality because some people prefer to be self-righteous instead of patient and many members are conspiring to leave.
בס''ד
בני, למה אתה מעלה את העניין הזה שוב? האם אתה לא רואה שכמעט לא היו לנו ויכוחים כאלה 48 שעות כבר? אנו פותרים את הבעיה הזו בעזרת השם. אבל כל פעם שאתה מעלה את זה עם הביקורת שלך, זה עלול להתחיל עוד קטטה מיותרת.
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כד צוּף-דְּבַשׁ, אִמְרֵי-נֹעַם; מָתוֹק לַנֶּפֶשׁ, וּמַרְפֵּא לָעָצֶם
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V is not starting an unneccessary fight, he is just stating how he feels, he too, has been upset over this. I totally support V with his feelings. He is a fine young man and I will stand up for him and protect him if I can.
Just remember that no one is perfect or has a right to judge others here. God bless everyone here and have a wonderful day! :-*
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כד צוּף-דְּבַשׁ, אִמְרֵי-נֹעַם; מָתוֹק לַנֶּפֶשׁ, וּמַרְפֵּא לָעָצֶם
The words of Torah are pleasant to the body and soul like honey. :P
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Amen and amen, to this.....
כד צוּף-דְּבַשׁ, אִמְרֵי-נֹעַם; מָתוֹק לַנֶּפֶשׁ, וּמַרְפֵּא לָעָצֶם
The words of Torah are pleasant to the body and soul like honey. :P
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My heart and soul will reside in Israel some day soon. I cannot fathom not being there... But in the meantime I will continue to have relations with non-Jews... I don't rely on them, but my Parnasa is from Hashem. Hashem has given me skills which have provided me with many opportunities. It may be that these skills will make me valuable in Israel soon...
I dont rely on gentiles but those who know me know that when I am with them that Hashem is with me.
Muman, I dont rely on ANYBODY outside of G-d and my David. David is silly, he does not want to go to Israel. Since I believe in my heart that G-d will use my singing voice, I believe that I will be blessed, so this will enable me to go to our homeland.
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Incogman is truly the scum of the earth. If "scum of the earth" as a phrase were in the dictionary, his pedophile mug would be the illustration for it. He runs a hideous blog where he blames Jews for the bubonic plague, for earthquakes, and the fact that everybody dies. Truly sickening stuff and if the FBI was doing his job, his computer would be confiscated for child porn this instant.
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that is a good idea....
Incogman is truly the scum of the earth. If "scum of the earth" as a phrase were in the dictionary, his pedophile mug would be the illustration for it. He runs a hideous blog where he blames Jews for the bubonic plague, for earthquakes, and the fact that everybody dies. Truly sickening stuff and if the FBI was doing his job, his computer would be confiscated for child porn this instant.
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he's more like a clown
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yes... :laugh:
he's more like a clown
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I just had an irony flash. The Jewish tradition and laws are very isolationist. It seems like everything has to be kept separated without blending or merging. Jews must be separated from gentiles, men and women must at certain times separate. There are even mitzvas forbidding the creation of hybrid animals and plants, and even fabrics cannot be made of wool and cotton together.
The irony is that in our history, we have become entangled and intertwine with other nations and other affairs, and other ideologies, probably more then any other nation.
I dont know if I agree with you on this.... The Jewish people, until this last century, have been isolated by the host countries in which they lived. In my great-grandparents days no Jew would marry a non-Jew... Back in Ukraine the Jews lived in their own villiages, not only because of tradition, but because they were not welcome in the non-Jewish villiages. The Jewish people until recently have been a nation seperated from the other nations. Only in the last century have Jews come to America and been able to move up.
You are right that for the most part we maintained separated communities in the exile. Nevertheless we become a class within gentile society
Another thing that my learned friend pointed on:
Harishonim, the rabbis of the period 1100-1500, were more open to the foreign world than HaAchronim. Take for example the Rambam, Rabbi Yehuda Halevi, and many other scholars from Sfarad- they were like renaissance men.