JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: IsraeliGovtAreKapos on August 16, 2010, 02:26:42 PM
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Please explain your opinion.
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What is there to explain. Our Holy Torah told us how to determine if a person is Jewish... It is only if the person has a Jewish mother or has gone through the halachic conversion process...
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A Jew according to the Jewish Law (Halacha) - one who is born to a Jewish mother or gone through an Orthodox conversion process
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A Jew according to the Jewish Law (Halacha) - one who is born to a Jewish mother or gone through an Orthodox conversion process
Exactly what I was going to say. BTW, I think its offensive that you bring up the Nuremberg laws as an option.... can you kindly remove that.
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A Jew according to the Jewish Law (Halacha) - one who is born to a Jewish mother or gone through an Orthodox conversion process
Exactly what I was going to say. BTW, I think its offensive that you bring up the Nuremberg laws as an option.... can you kindly remove that.
Why? The Law of Return is based on them.
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There is nothing to explain.. A Jew is Jew according to Halacha and not according to man made rules or if someone feels Jewish..If someone truly feels Jewish, then he/she should seek an Orthodox Rabbi's counsel to convert.
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A Jew according to the Jewish Law (Halacha) - one who is born to a Jewish mother or gone through an Orthodox conversion process
Exactly what I was going to say. BTW, I think its offensive that you bring up the Nuremberg laws as an option.... can you kindly remove that.
Why? The Law of Return is based on them.
Because you are being incensitive to the souls who lived through that period. THe Nurenburg law basically made Jews subjects to the state, it treated them like garbage, told them they would be jailed if they associated with 'Aryans' in the wrong way. and to leave that as an option is pathetic.
Also, I believe the Nurenburg laws ultimately required 2 grandparents.
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Without the Torah, there was never any such thing as a Jew. Without G-d setting up that delineation for us in the Torah, our collectivity as a nation could not have persisted. And it always persisted based on the Torah delineations as explained by halacha, the traditional backbone of Judaism and Jewish culture, until a few generations ago in the post-enlightenment period when reformists suddenly tried to create a new religion because certain countries allowed them to come out of the ghetto (but then later forced them back into the ghettos, deported them, and murdered them along with those who never left).
But even those early reformers did not question what was actually a Jew. They did institutionalize their own conversions which were never recognized by anyone but themselves, but they never questioned that a Jew had a Jewish mother. That developed later on because the membership numbers in reform "synagogues" were dwindling and they felt they could increase membership and dues ($$$) by "inviting" non-Jews as Jews simply because they married a Jew, or their father was Jewish, etc. Nowadays, thanks to postmodernism many Jews think any subject is a free-for-all and any arbitrary definitions apply and you simply choose the most 'tolerant' or "inclusive" view or else you're an antiquated bigot. Twisted and incorrect.
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A Jew according to the Jewish Law (Halacha) - one who is born to a Jewish mother or gone through an Orthodox conversion process
Exactly what I was going to say. BTW, I think its offensive that you bring up the Nuremberg laws as an option.... can you kindly remove that.
Why? The Law of Return is based on them.
Because you are being incensitive to the souls who lived through that period. THe Nurenburg law basically made Jews subjects to the state, it treated them like garbage, told them they would be jailed if they associated with 'Aryans' in the wrong way. and to leave that as an option is pathetic.
Also, I believe the Nurenburg laws ultimately required 2 grandparents.
I thought the reference was to the Israeli law of return. Although that law don't define a person with one Jewish grandfather as a Jew, it grants him the right of making aliyah. What's more is that some Jews and not so few of them actually think of Jews as a race and that a person with a fraction of Jewish blood is Jewish if he "feels Jewish".
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Because you are being incensitive to the souls who lived through that period.
I think you mean insensitive.
On the contray! You're using the same argument as "by calling the Arabs Nazis, you're disrespecting the victims of the Holocaust". Fighting against Nazi-like Laws is not insensitive but is actually recognition of the past and their suffering and an attempt to make sure it will not happen again.
THe Nurenburg law basically made Jews subjects to the state, it treated them like garbage, told them they would be jailed if they associated with 'Aryans' in the wrong way.
It doesn't matter, the Law of Return is as immoral as the Nurenberg laws because it's a DIRECT copy of them. Jewishness defined by race - hence, Russian Neo-Nazi skinheads are welcome because they had a Jewish grandfather.
and to leave that as an option is pathetic.
I know being honest and non-PC is pathetic for you.
Also, I believe the Nurenburg laws ultimately required 2 grandparents.
You stand on that? (not that it matters, on the contray, you're strengthening my point..)
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I voted "A Jew according to the Jewish Law (Halacha)" -- which, by the way, I think is kind of lenient. I would prefer that it was that your mother AND father were Jews. (I hope I don't get too much flack for this.)
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That's like asking if 1+1 is 2 or another number. Whatever the Halacha says, you know?
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Because you are being incensitive to the souls who lived through that period.
I think you mean insensitive.
On the contray! You're using the same argument as "by calling the Arabs Nazis, you're disrespecting the victims of the Holocaust". Fighting against Nazi-like Laws is not insensitive but is actually recognition of the past and their suffering and an attempt to make sure it will not happen again.
THe Nurenburg law basically made Jews subjects to the state, it treated them like garbage, told them they would be jailed if they associated with 'Aryans' in the wrong way.
It doesn't matter, the Law of Return is as immoral as the Nurenberg laws because it's a DIRECT copy of them. Jewishness defined by race - hence, Russian Neo-Nazi skinheads are welcome because they had a Jewish grandfather.
and to leave that as an option is pathetic.
I know being honest and non-PC is pathetic for you.
Also, I believe the Nurenburg laws ultimately required 2 grandparents.
You stand on that? (not that it matters, on the contray, you're strengthening my point..)
I think you meant contrary...
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&&sa=X&ei=xs9pTLvVPI2csQPY_YTwBg&ved=0CAQQBSgA&q=define%3Acontrary&spell=1
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Because you are being incensitive to the souls who lived through that period.
I think you mean insensitive.
On the contray! You're using the same argument as "by calling the Arabs Nazis, you're disrespecting the victims of the Holocaust". Fighting against Nazi-like Laws is not insensitive but is actually recognition of the past and their suffering and an attempt to make sure it will not happen again.
THe Nurenburg law basically made Jews subjects to the state, it treated them like garbage, told them they would be jailed if they associated with 'Aryans' in the wrong way.
It doesn't matter, the Law of Return is as immoral as the Nurenberg laws because it's a DIRECT copy of them. Jewishness defined by race - hence, Russian Neo-Nazi skinheads are welcome because they had a Jewish grandfather.
and to leave that as an option is pathetic.
I know being honest and non-PC is pathetic for you.
Also, I believe the Nurenburg laws ultimately required 2 grandparents.
You stand on that? (not that it matters, on the contray, you're strengthening my point..)
I think you meant contrary...
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&&sa=X&ei=xs9pTLvVPI2csQPY_YTwBg&ved=0CAQQBSgA&q=define%3Acontrary&spell=1
I never liked you
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Because you are being incensitive to the souls who lived through that period.
I think you mean insensitive.
On the contray! You're using the same argument as "by calling the Arabs Nazis, you're disrespecting the victims of the Holocaust". Fighting against Nazi-like Laws is not insensitive but is actually recognition of the past and their suffering and an attempt to make sure it will not happen again.
THe Nurenburg law basically made Jews subjects to the state, it treated them like garbage, told them they would be jailed if they associated with 'Aryans' in the wrong way.
It doesn't matter, the Law of Return is as immoral as the Nurenberg laws because it's a DIRECT copy of them. Jewishness defined by race - hence, Russian Neo-Nazi skinheads are welcome because they had a Jewish grandfather.
and to leave that as an option is pathetic.
I know being honest and non-PC is pathetic for you.
Also, I believe the Nurenburg laws ultimately required 2 grandparents.
You stand on that? (not that it matters, on the contray, you're strengthening my point..)
I think you meant contrary...
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&&sa=X&ei=xs9pTLvVPI2csQPY_YTwBg&ved=0CAQQBSgA&q=define%3Acontrary&spell=1
I never liked you
Seriously? I thought you did like me...
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Because you are being incensitive to the souls who lived through that period.
I think you mean insensitive.
On the contray! You're using the same argument as "by calling the Arabs Nazis, you're disrespecting the victims of the Holocaust". Fighting against Nazi-like Laws is not insensitive but is actually recognition of the past and their suffering and an attempt to make sure it will not happen again.
THe Nurenburg law basically made Jews subjects to the state, it treated them like garbage, told them they would be jailed if they associated with 'Aryans' in the wrong way.
It doesn't matter, the Law of Return is as immoral as the Nurenberg laws because it's a DIRECT copy of them. Jewishness defined by race - hence, Russian Neo-Nazi skinheads are welcome because they had a Jewish grandfather.
and to leave that as an option is pathetic.
I know being honest and non-PC is pathetic for you.
Also, I believe the Nurenburg laws ultimately required 2 grandparents.
You stand on that? (not that it matters, on the contray, you're strengthening my point..)
I think you meant contrary...
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&&sa=X&ei=xs9pTLvVPI2csQPY_YTwBg&ved=0CAQQBSgA&q=define%3Acontrary&spell=1
I never liked you
Seriously? I thought you did like me...
Joking
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Thanks..
:dance:
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I voted "A Jew according to the Jewish Law (Halacha)" -- which, by the way, I think is kind of lenient. I would prefer that it was that your mother AND father were Jews. (I hope I don't get too much flack for this.)
What is that preference based on? And why should it be considered?
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I can't believe that out of all these choices, 3 people voted for the nuremberg laws!
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Well most people got it right... The three might be classified as margin of error votes :::D
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I voted "A Jew according to the Jewish Law (Halacha)" -- which, by the way, I think is kind of lenient. I would prefer that it was that your mother AND father were Jews. (I hope I don't get too much flack for this.)
What is that preference based on? And why should it be considered?
It's just my personal preference. I know that it won't be considered, nor do I expect it to be. I don't set such rules. But I'm expressing my feeling about the rule, that's all. Now maybe I'm wrong about this, but if you had a friend who came from a Jewish mother and a Jewish father and a Jewish household, and you had another friend whose father was Christian, which friend would you feel closer to as a Jew?
As I understand it, the Halachach reasoning for only the mother being the determinant factor is because it's always certain who the mother is. I would have made a different ruling, that's all.
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This is not a new question/argument.
I remember it was brought up early on in the history of The State of Israel.
Can't remember which prominent personality said it, but after frustrating attempts to forge a definition some one said "Anybody crazy enough to want to be a Jew is a Jew!"
Not Jewish Law, but makes a good point from the perspective of most Jews! :laugh:
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I voted "A Jew according to the Jewish Law (Halacha)" -- which, by the way, I think is kind of lenient. I would prefer that it was that your mother AND father were Jews. (I hope I don't get too much flack for this.)
What is that preference based on? And why should it be considered?
It's just my personal preference. I know that it won't be considered, nor do I expect it to be. I don't set such rules. But I'm expressing my feeling about the rule, that's all. Now maybe I'm wrong about this, but if you had a friend who came from a Jewish mother and a Jewish father and a Jewish household, and you had another friend whose father was Christian, which friend would you feel closer to as a Jew?
As I understand it, the Halachach reasoning for only the mother being the determinant factor is because it's always certain who the mother is. I would have made a different ruling, that's all.
There are thousands of years of debate on issues like this I would think that they have looked at all the angles by now... I think they have it figured out fairly well...
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If Jews go back several generations, either Sephardic, Ashkenazic or Mizrahi/Middle Eastern, there's no way to tell how much non-Jewish blood from rapes and pogroms are a part of every family's tree. In the middle ages, if people who claimed to be Jews moved into a different community or country, did they require them to show documentation like ketuba, brit milah record etc? or did they simply accept them into the Jewish community based on their word? Did they give them a test to see how much they knew about Judaism? I doubt it. After the Holocaust, when survivors would marry and/or immigrate to Israel, did the Rabbis require documentation from them to prove their Jewishness? No, because it was impossible; everything had been destroyed during the war.
The checking of documentation by the Rabbis is a modern concept. It developed after the huge influx of formerly Soviet Jews after the fall of the Soviet Union in 1990, as a response to many instances of fraud by non-Jewish Russians attempting to leave the former Soviet Union.
In my opinion, there should be 2 different standards for aliyah and marriage. I think the status quo that exists in Israel now is fine. However in my opinion, there should be civil marriage there, only between a man and woman, as well. Even a non-halachic Jew must serve in the Israeli army and risk his/her life for the Jewish state. At the least, they should be allowed to marry in a civil ceremony in Israel. If they are killed while serving in the army, they should also be allowed to be buried in a military cemetary.
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I voted "A Jew according to the Jewish Law (Halacha)" -- which, by the way, I think is kind of lenient. I would prefer that it was that your mother AND father were Jews. (I hope I don't get too much flack for this.)
What is that preference based on? And why should it be considered?
It's just my personal preference. I know that it won't be considered, nor do I expect it to be. I don't set such rules. But I'm expressing my feeling about the rule, that's all. Now maybe I'm wrong about this, but if you had a friend who came from a Jewish mother and a Jewish father and a Jewish household, and you had another friend whose father was Christian, which friend would you feel closer to as a Jew?
It depends how the person in question was raised. I would "feel closer" to the Jew with Christian father if that Jew never stepped foot in a church and still celebrated Jewish holidays, hanukah, etc. And if the Jew with Jewish mother AND father was actually raised without any Jewish upbringing, I wouldn't feel close to him at all. But whether or not he is Jewish is an existential question and has nothing to do with how close you or I feel to the person.
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My Mother is a Portuguese Crypto/Marrano Jew, and raised me SERIOUSLY strict with the help of my Nana.
My father is 1/2 WASP, 1/2 Iroquois Indian. Sorry to say, he is a rotten, unrighteous, Jew hating gentile.
We were not religious. I have always believed in ONE G-d, THE G-d of the Torah, period. I didnt get involved in 'religion', I am spiritual. G-d does miraculous things around me too great for words.
As far as 'who am I close to?' It depends. I have met many "Christians" that are baked wind morons for socialism. I have met more "Jews" than you can shake a stick at that are bleeding heart Kommies.
I feel to be a good Jew, (this is my opinion) is to not sit by watching your brother/sister taking a beating, and fight. I feel that a good Jew (that is not religious) should follow the Commandments and love his/her brethren.
I will take up for any person that shows they are #1. loyal to G-d and believers in the ONLY G-d, #2. faithful #3. righteous.
I guess thats all for me.
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This is not a new question/argument.
I remember it was brought up early on in the history of The State of Israel.
Can't remember which prominent personality said it, but after frustrating attempts to forge a definition some one said "Anybody crazy enough to want to be a Jew is a Jew!"
Not Jewish Law, but makes a good point from the perspective of most Jews! :laugh:
:laugh: :laugh: too right.
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law of return standards are fine
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This is not a new question/argument.
I remember it was brought up early on in the history of The State of Israel.
Can't remember which prominent personality said it, but after frustrating attempts to forge a definition some one said "Anybody crazy enough to want to be a Jew is a Jew!"
Not Jewish Law, but makes a good point from the perspective of most Jews! :laugh:
:laugh: :laugh: too right.
I guess that makes Steven Weigang a Jew... He is so crazy he thinks he is a Jew...
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law of return standards are fine
Stop hijacking Judaism you filthy Liberal
Yet I'm not surprised you sympathize with a Nazi-based law
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What is there to explain. Our Holy Torah told us how to determine if a person is Jewish... It is only if the person has a Jewish mother or has gone through the halachic conversion process...
Of course. What is there to discuss here ?
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I guess that makes Steven Weigang a Jew... He is so crazy he thinks he is a Jew...
After I edited funny stuff into his wikipedia page I was given a warning that if I did something like that again I'd be banned from editing Wikipedia. ;D
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I believe that you can be Jewish with Jewish blood, but need to believe the Torah and practice Judisim to really call yourself a jew. Not just by blood but by belief and loyalty to your religion. Thankyou.
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law of return standards are fine
Stop hijacking Judaism you filthy Liberal
Yet I'm not surprised you sympathize with a Nazi-based law
until i saw this poll, i thought the Nuremberg laws, you had to be half, not 1/4 like in th+e law of return.
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law of return standards are fine
Stop hijacking Judaism you filthy Liberal
Yet I'm not surprised you sympathize with a Nazi-based law
until i saw this poll, i thought the Nuremberg laws, you had to be half, not 1/4 like in th+e law of return.
So you thought that the Israeli law of return outdid the nazism of the nuremberg laws?
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law of return standards are fine
Stop hijacking Judaism you filthy Liberal
Yet I'm not surprised you sympathize with a Nazi-based law
until i saw this poll, i thought the Nuremberg laws, you had to be half, not 1/4 like in th+e law of return.
So you thought that the Israeli law of return outdid the nazism of the nuremberg laws?
yes, i thought the nuremberg laws applied to 1\at least 1/2 jews.
also, why do you make it sound like defining a group in of itself is a bad thing?
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I think one point needs to be cleared. Secular Jews is something quite recent, about 150-200 years or so. Before that all Jews were virtually religious, at least by culture, appearance and education. And they lived in Christian or Islamic countries that themselves didn't have a secular society. Back then, it was impossible to marry a gentile wife, live a secular life with her, and call this family and the children "Jewish".
So the reason why we need records nowadays is that everyone can pretend to be a secular Jew. While it is virtually impossible to fake an orthodox Jew.
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law of return standards are fine
Stop hijacking Judaism you filthy Liberal
Yet I'm not surprised you sympathize with a Nazi-based law
until i saw this poll, i thought the Nuremberg laws, you had to be half, not 1/4 like in th+e law of return.
So you thought that the Israeli law of return outdid the nazism of the nuremberg laws?
yes, i thought the nuremberg laws applied to 1\at least 1/2 jews.
also, why do you make it sound like defining a group in of itself is a bad thing?
When you adopt the nazi definitions for how to "define a group," it is a bad thing. What right do nazis have to define the Jews? And why should modern-day ignorant Jews adopt the nazis' incorrect definitions that go against our own culture, history, religion, and tradition?
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law of return standards are fine
Stop hijacking Judaism you filthy Liberal
Yet I'm not surprised you sympathize with a Nazi-based law
until i saw this poll, i thought the Nuremberg laws, you had to be half, not 1/4 like in th+e law of return.
So you thought that the Israeli law of return outdid the nazism of the nuremberg laws?
yes, i thought the nuremberg laws applied to 1\at least 1/2 jews.
also, why do you make it sound like defining a group in of itself is a bad thing?
When you adopt the nazi definitions for how to "define a group," it is a bad thing. What right do nazis have to define the Jews? And why should modern-day ignorant Jews adopt the nazis' incorrect definitions that go against our own culture, history, religion, and tradition?
i didnt, untill i saw this poll, i thought the nuremberg laws said "1/2 jews"
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law of return standards are fine
Stop hijacking Judaism you filthy Liberal
Yet I'm not surprised you sympathize with a Nazi-based law
until i saw this poll, i thought the Nuremberg laws, you had to be half, not 1/4 like in th+e law of return.
So you thought that the Israeli law of return outdid the nazism of the nuremberg laws?
yes, i thought the nuremberg laws applied to 1\at least 1/2 jews.
also, why do you make it sound like defining a group in of itself is a bad thing?
When you adopt the nazi definitions for how to "define a group," it is a bad thing. What right do nazis have to define the Jews? And why should modern-day ignorant Jews adopt the nazis' incorrect definitions that go against our own culture, history, religion, and tradition?
i didnt, untill i saw this poll, i thought the nuremberg laws said "1/2 jews"
???
No matter what you thought about Nuremberg laws, you are adopting the Nazi criteria when you say that 1/4 Jews should be considered Jews. What is a 1/4 Jew? There is no such thing. You are making Judaism into a race, following the model of the German nazis, simply because the Israeli law you are accustomed to employed that model, whether you realized that or not. Whether you knew the fact or not, the Israeli law employed that nazi model. Whether it's 1/2 vs. 1/4 etc is inconsequential to the argument.
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law of return standards are fine
Stop hijacking Judaism you filthy Liberal
Yet I'm not surprised you sympathize with a Nazi-based law
until i saw this poll, i thought the Nuremberg laws, you had to be half, not 1/4 like in th+e law of return.
So you thought that the Israeli law of return outdid the nazism of the nuremberg laws?
yes, i thought the nuremberg laws applied to 1\at least 1/2 jews.
also, why do you make it sound like defining a group in of itself is a bad thing?
When you adopt the nazi definitions for how to "define a group," it is a bad thing. What right do nazis have to define the Jews? And why should modern-day ignorant Jews adopt the nazis' incorrect definitions that go against our own culture, history, religion, and tradition?
i didnt, untill i saw this poll, i thought the nuremberg laws said "1/2 jews"
???
No matter what you thought about Nuremberg laws, you are adopting the Nazi criteria when you say that 1/4 Jews should be considered Jews. What is a 1/4 Jew? There is no such thing. You are making Judaism into a race, following the model of the German nazis, simply because the Israeli law you are accustomed to employed that model, whether you realized that or not. Whether you knew the fact or not, the Israeli law employed that nazi model. Whether it's 1/2 vs. 1/4 etc is inconsequential to the argument.
i said the "law of return" because that was the poll option, my actual opinion is either 1/4th or a convert to most sects (with a sufficiently long conversion process).
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also, if some muslim guy's maternal grandmothers mother (great grandma) is jewish, while everyone else is muslim, is he a jew? on a theological level and on a legal level?
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Halakcha itself is clear on who is a Jew, and who is not a Jew. -- Having a Jewish mother is crucial [or a legitimate conversion].
Nuremberg laws granting Israeli citizenship were adopted to help the people of Europe who were being slaughtered because they had Jewish relatives and were considered Jewish by Nazis and their helper anti-Semites who would kill them, no? Are people allowed to immigrate to Israel because they are "part Jewish" [but not actually Jewish Jewish] given full Jew status by the State [the State has no Semikhah backing, so are they forcing "halakcha" standard Jewish status on society?]? I am not sure I understand fully the State involvement. A secular government [anti-Judaism] has little to no place ruling over Jews of Israel [despite what Israel's history and current status are; clearly many things need to change].
I do think the Jewish people should be moved to protect people who are persecuted by anti-Semites because they have Jewish family, who find themselves [mistakenly] targeted as Jews. -- I'm just not wise enough to say if the State of Israel has a responsibility to be a haven for such people; it is a tremendous thing for a country to absorb people in it, especially a State as small as Israel [what a naqba Israel is absorbing and tolerating black Muslim Nazis who invade the State, as well as Arab Muslim Nazis who squat on Jewish land and claim it for their own.]. Israel is a Jewish State, and should never compromise what that means, or allow it to be compromised [clearly Israel does not run as a Jewish State today, and never has; moving further away from a Jewish idealed State is a travesty, and if non-Jewish immigrants brings negative change than it should not happen].
The yardstick is, "is it good for the Jews"? [first and foremost].
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Halacha may say otherwise but if you travel to most countries, those countries do not consider someone Jewish by religion but by a bloodline or race and even on the ethnicity forms, they declare the person different ethnically. My dads parents census from Southern Romania state ethnic "Evrei" which means "Israelite". The term Jewish is not very commonly used in Europe, so it is to distinguish Jews from the rest of the population as the world does not see it as a "religion". Even in the South (US), people associate Jews as being a racial group of people like Germans or Italians. We do not choose to be put into this category, the world made the decision to make us a race regardless if we think so or not.
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Halacha may say otherwise but if you travel to most countries, those countries do not consider someone Jewish by religion but by a bloodline or race and even on the ethnicity forms, they declare the person different ethnically. My dads parents census from Southern Romania state ethnic "Evrei" which means "Israelite". The term Jewish is not very commonly used in Europe, so it is to distinguish Jews from the rest of the population as the world does not see it as a "religion". Even in the South (US), people associate Jews as being a racial group of people like Germans or Italians. We do not choose to be put into this category, the world made the decision to make us a race regardless if we think so or not.
It's not a religion. It's a religio-nation. It's a combination of ethnicity and religion. Other nations calling us different things or "defining" our race as they desire to define it, has nothing to do with reality and nothing to do with the question of "How should WE define ourselves?" Supposed WE were the Israeli govt, with say over Jewish life, without needing input from germany, or romania, or italy, which we don't need. How should we do it? That's the only relevant question.
And the answer to the question is simple as well. We should define ourselves as we've always defined ourselves as a religio-nation, whereby anyone with Jewish mother is Jewish and any valid convert is Jewish. Anyone else will need to convert, simple as that. This is in line with our history, culture, tradition, and halacha without letting others hijack those things from us, as no self-respecting nation allows their cultural heritage to be hijacked and redefined by outsiders. Especially by outsiders like nazis or antisemitic europeans who have only bad intentions and only evil hatred for us as a people. Why would someone accept the designs of the groups that hate us? It appears that stockholm syndrome strikes again....