JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: muman613 on July 14, 2011, 06:35:40 PM
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I must say that I agree with what Moshe says about Glenn Beck and most of the non-Jewish zionists... But I also have to give Glenn Beck credit for standing up for the Jewish cause. We should not push him and his supporters away because they may be able to sway public opinion towards Israel and the Jewish people...
I myself have always felt that Christians who support Israel are doing so not because they feel that the Jews are right, or that helping Hashems people is what G-d wants.... But they help Israel because their faith tells them that Israel is important for the end-of-times 'prophecies' of the Christian bible. I still feel this way, and apparently Moshe Feiglin feels this way also...
But I also believe that non-Jews are essential to help Israel out in the field of 'world opinion'. I will not push them away and I will attempt to get them to understand the Jewish belief.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/145734
Feiglin Warns Against Glenn Beck’s ‘Heartwarming Crusade’
by Gil Ronen
Moshe Feiglin, head of the Jewish Leadership faction inside Likud, has come out swinging against media personality Glenn Beck following Beck’s visit to Israel this week and ahead of his August “Restoring Courage” event in Jerusalem.
Feiglin told readers of his weekly column that he had decided to turn down an invitation to a reception for Beck in eastern Jerusalem. Feiglin's sees hidden motives behind Beck's decision to hold a large rally benetah next to the southern side of the Mount.
“Beck is considered – quite justifiably so – as the best public defender of Israel, and especially the Israeli Right,” Feiglin acknowledged. “When one watches a well dressed, thoughtful and influential American who glues millions of viewers to the screen with explanations that Israel’s Right has already despaired of – one immediately feels great joy and pride. Glenn Beck is without doubt a great supporter of the Israeli cause.”
Beck’s speech before a Knesset committee Monday sounded like a page from the Jewish Leadership newsletter, Feiglin added. “But then Beck said the following words – 'I invite you to join us… your nation is my nation and your G-d is my G-d.'”
“Since Beck is not in a process of conversion to Judaism and since we already have experience with Christian lovers of Israel, we gathered that this quote from the Scroll of Ruth should not be understood in its original meaning of ‘I am joining you’ but that the real meaning of the words is apparently – ‘I am replacing you.’”
The Temple Mount is not a Christian site, explained Feiglin. “It is certainly not a Muslim one. Glenn Beck talks a lot about the need to say the truth. Well then, let us say it. The Temple Mount is solely the place of the Jewish Temple.”
“All nations who understand this are welcome to come to it (within the area that they are allowed to enter) and to pray to the G-d of Avraham, Yitzchak and Ya’akov. Esau and Yishmael have their own holy places – do not touch the Holies of Israel.”
Feiglin wrote that it is becoming clearer that Beck represents Christian “replacement theology” (“supersessionism”) that sees Christianity as the “New Israel,” seeks to bring “waves of Christian aliyah” to Israel and “use Jewish redemption as a jumping board for Christian redemption.”
Feiglin accused the Jewish and nationalist leaders who “flock” to Beck of inadvertently assisting “a very refined and heartwarming kind of modern crusade.”
(IsraelNationalNews.com)
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We should not push him and his supporters away because they may be able to sway public opinion towards Israel and the Jewish people...
This is 100% correct (IMHO). Call me naive, but I love it when someone like Beck is such a big supporter of Israel even if his reasons aren't our reasons. He's a friend of Israel and we need influential friends.
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Yes, Glenn and other conservative commentators HAVE made a difference.
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Moshe just wrote a piece for A7 which I repost here:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/10408
Moshe Feiglin's Take on Beck
Tammuz 12, 5771, 14 July 11 11:57
by Moshe Feiglin
(Israelnationalnews.com) It was hot on Monday, but I took my jacket along, nevertheless, hanging it on a hook in my car. It was the start of a long day of meetings, the pinnacle of which was to be a reception that Glenn Beck was holding for an exclusive group of people in a Jerusalem apartment, and I wanted to look my official best.
Beck is justifiably considered one of the best public relations people that Israel – and particularly the Israeli Right – has today. When you see an intelligent and articulate American gluing millions of Americans to their seats with the Israeli Right's case, making points that the Right dares not make, you immediately feel great pride and joy.
Glenn Beck is surely a great lover of Israel. He is not an active missionary and is not establishing a dubious charity foundation here. He is a very popular broadcaster; his job is public relations – what could be better than that?
But on Monday afternoon, I heard Glenn Beck speaking before the Immigration Committee in the Knesset. The main point of his message was that we must return to a policy of telling the people the truth. He called upon his listeners to attend an international event that he is organizing in support of Israel, to be held at the foot of the Southern Wall of the Temple Mount. Toward the end of his speech, Beck quoted the Scroll of Ruth:
"I invite you to join us," said Beck. "Your nation is my nation and your G-d is my G-d."
I must admit that when a friendly non-Jew starts to quote the Bible, I get a bit nervous. It is not just the long history of anti-Semitism that has developed a genetic mutation in the noses of Jews, giving them great sensitivity to anything that smells of Christianity - but also my own personal experience with avowed lovers of Israel and the settlers who took great pains to mask their Christian motives.
As Glenn Beck is not in the process of conversion to Judaism, it is impossible to understand his quote from the Scroll of Ruth as meaning, "I am joining you." Apparently, the real meaning of his words is "I am replacing you."
A quick study of Glenn Beck's speeches before non-Israeli audiences and a simple internet search of his biography show that he is a believing Mormon who is motivated by a deep religious consciousness. In a live broadcast from the Temple Mount, Beck theatrically shows his audience how in that very place, Jesus turned over the tables of the Jewish money-changers who served the pilgrims to the Temple. He forgot to mention that with this act, that man created one of the most blatantly anti-Semitic Christian legends that lives on to this very day.
The problem is not Glenn Beck's beliefs. Beck is a good person who believes in what he is doing. The problem is that the most loyal Jewish public is giving him its support without thoroughly checking his message. They are unwittingly abetting a very gentle and heartwarming type of modern crusade. From a religious point of view, there is no difference between the Western Wall and the Southern Wall, where Beck's event is planned. They are both walls of the Mount of G-d's House. Would we allow a group of Christians to spread its message at the Western Wall?
As long as Glenn Beck and his friends support Israel from the outside, understanding that your nation is your nation and my nation is my nation; that your god is your god and my G-d is my G-d, all is well and good and it is important to cooperate with them. But when it turns out that the agenda is actually replacement theology; a theology that aims to bring waves of Christian aliyah here and to use the Jewish renaissance in Israel as a springboard to a Christian renaissance – I cannot lend it the legitimacy of Manhigut Yehudit.
Glenn Beck speaks a lot about our obligation to tell the truth, so let us do just that: The Temple Mount is the home of the Holy Temple of the Jews – exclusively. All the non-Jews who understand that are invited to come to the Temple Mount (in the area where they are permitted according to Jewish law) to pray to the Master of the Universe, the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Esau and Ishmael have their own holy places. Please honor our exclusive sovereignty over Jerusalem, including our spiritual sovereignty, just as we respect your spiritual sovereignty in your lands.
On Monday, my jacket remained in my car. And so did I.
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Its obvious Moshe made up his mind not to welcome Beck from the get go. I don't think just because he says, 'your god is my god' means that Glenn is carelessly revealing his evil plans for a Christian take-over of Israel.
The truth is that Glenn knows that the Christians MUST support Israel and the Jews. He knows that if Christians stray away from Israel, they stray away from righteousness; he is really on the same page as Chaim on this and many other issues. And he also has said numerous times that the Jews are the chosen ones, and that Israel is a Jewish state and he wouldn't focus on this so much if he intends to start an inquisition.
I find Moshe's attitudes very narrow-minded and disappointing.
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I sure hope Mr. Feiglin is wrong... I have been thinking that Beck is a good thing..
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But here is the problem with what feiglan says. He assumes that jews should lead the way to free israel and he's right. However with the vast amounts of self hating jews in power, jews like us need glen becks to make everyone aware. I liken him to the persian king who ended the first diaspora.
Fyi, christians who ulterior motives to support israel do not scare me.
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But here is the problem with what feiglan says. He assumes that jews should lead the way to free israel and he's right. However with the vast amounts of self hating jews in power, jews like us need glen becks to make everyone aware. I liken him to the persian king who ended the first diaspora.
Fyi, christians who ulterior motives to support israel do not scare me.
I have listened to Beck quite a lot, and I have never heard any insincerity at all. He has spoken more about Jewish causes than any other conservative commentator, including all the Jewish ones combined. He knows, like Chaim does, that Gentile support is very important. NOT because Israel needs money or direction from Gentiles, but its important from a spiritual and moral standpoint. Without this moral compass, gentiles may devolve into their dark age Nazi past and stray from righteousness. They may fall back into the evil lies and propaganda of the past, and may support Islam and all enemies of the Jewish people.
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Moshe is right on this one. Beck says some great things and at times makes great arguments in favor of the Jewish people and Israel. But we cannot afford to tolerate any replacement theology talk, even a tiny smidgeon. It is a sickening disease, one intent on killing us (whether its through love or kindness does not matter - its goal is to destroy us). You are welcome to celebrate us or ally with us, but Israel is for the Jews, and the Temple Mount is Jewish. Anyone else there is a guest, plain and simple.
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Moshe is right on this one. Beck says some great things and at times makes great arguments in favor of the Jewish people and Israel. But we cannot afford to tolerate any replacement theology talk, even a tiny smidgeon. It is a sickening disease, one intent on killing us (whether its through love or kindness does not matter - its goal is to destroy us). You are welcome to celebrate us or ally with us, but Israel is for the Jews, and the Temple Mount is Jewish. Anyone else there is a guest, plain and simple.
He is right about replacement theology as being bad and to be weary of it, but he is dead wrong about Beck and his motives, and he is unable to see past his own narrow view of things. Beck has NEVER said he wants to be anything other than a guest. He is not going there to set up a mission or a church or give sermons to jews about jesus, this is a completely baseless accusation from Moshe. Moshe will never realize that there are many gentiles who have great reverence and respect for the chosen people who go to Israel, not to missionize, but to get closer to God, the chosen people, and YES, their messiah.
I know several gentiles, including Vito who have done the same.
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He is right about replacement theology as being bad and to be weary of it, but he is dead wrong about Beck and his motives, and he is unable to see past his own narrow view of things. Beck has NEVER said he wants to be anything other than a guest.
It's easy to dismiss someone else's point of view by calling it narrow, but why wouldn't a person, any person, see things from their own point of view? Your statement "he is unable to see past his own narrow view of things" strikes me as very odd. I also see my own view of things, as you see yours. The question is, whose view is valid? To me, Feiglin presents a valid point, and you have offered nothing to combat it. Nothing at all.
He is not going there to set up a mission or a church or give sermons to jews about jesus, this is a completely baseless accusation from Moshe.
I think it's actually a baseless accusation by you.
Moshe Feiglin said this in his article: "He is not an active missionary and is not establishing a dubious charity foundation here"
And you're attributing something to feiglin that feiglin never said.
Now let me quote you things that Beck has said in promotion of his event at the Mount:
“They are going to attack the center of our faith, our common faith, and that is Jerusalem. And it won’t be with bullets or bombs. It will be with a two-state solution that cuts off Jerusalem, the old city, to the rest of the world.”
Nope, not a common faith, we have different faiths, and nope Jerusalem is not yours it's ours. That must be made clear. And it's a dangerous premise he is floating. You are too focused on religion and messiahs and christianity to understand the point I am making and the point Feiglin is making. Our (Jewish) so-called "religion" is a national existence. And from the beginning of the existence of our restored commonwealth, from DAY ONE, it has been a constant battle against meddlers and outside forces who insist that Jerusalem somehow doesn't belong to us, it's really the pope's, it's really the muslims', it's really the universal man's, etc etc... And much of the Oslo trauma stems from this constant desire by other peoples to wrest away our capital (and our land) from us.
NO, Glenn Beck, Jerusalem is NOT YOURS. That is not an insult or personal affront. That is simply a fact.
Moshe will never realize that there are many gentiles who have great reverence and respect for the chosen people who go to Israel, not to missionize, but to get closer to G-d, the chosen people, and YES...
I think you're assuming a lot of things about Feiglin, but really you're making them up. He is not "anti-gentile" if that's what you're implying.
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Moshe Feiglin works within the Likud Political Party. The Likud party that has given up the most land to the enemy than any other, Political Party.
Within the Likud party Moshe Feiglin, works with some individuals who have a quasi-Zionist ideology, but who do not believe in Orthodox Judaism, and some don't even believe our right to the land of Israel is based on the Bible.
Yet, Moshe Feiglin is willing to overlook these differences to advance his ideological cause.
If he is working together with secularists, some of them are not even Jewish, for example, there's a rightwing Druze, MK who is somewhat in alliance with Feiglin, why all of a sudden, is he upset about Glenn Beck?
Or am I missing something? Is there a bigger danger of being ideologically damaged by association with Glenn Beck than there is by being associated with Feiglin's friends?
My criticism of Feiglin is not to be considered an endorsement or a rejection of his tactics of working with those that deny Torah. Concerning this tactic I do not wish to comment on, at this point. My criticism of Feigllin, is what moral right does He have to speak out against an alliance with Glenn Beck.
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Glenn Beck supported Rich Iott, a Nazi who was caught dressed up with a Nazi Waffen SS uniform. Glenn Beck is a Nazi piece of sub-human garbage. And Moshe Feiglin who betrayed Yigal Amir, Baruch Goldstein and supports Bibi and the Likud treacherous party is not a Tzadik either
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Glenn Beck supported Rich Iott, a Nazi who was caught dressed up with a Nazi Waffen SS uniform. Glenn Beck is a Nazi piece of sub-human garbage. And Moshe Feiglin who betrayed Yigal Amir, Baruch Goldstein and supports Bibi and the Likud treacherous party is not a Tzadik either
Nobody is perfect like you, Ron. ;D
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No but really the gesture and support us appreciated. It us up to the jewish people to redeem israel just like moses with He's help redeemed israel. There is more merit when a jew converted or non convert does this.
But still, the reality is that feiglin shouldn't be talking. He has mistakingly joined likud a nazi self hating party. I would believe someone like noam federman if he said something like this.
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Glenn Beck supported Rich Iott, a Nazi who was caught dressed up with a Nazi Waffen SS uniform. Glenn Beck is a Nazi piece of sub-human garbage. And Moshe Feiglin who betrayed Yigal Amir, Baruch Goldstein and supports Bibi and the Likud treacherous party is not a Tzadik either
True but his Jewish Friends and business partner said he's the least anti Jewish guy they know. He also has a long history of pro Jewish and pro Israel stances
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Moshe Feiglin's Take on Beck
Tammuz 12, 5771, 14 July 11 11:57
by Moshe Feiglin
(Israelnationalnews.com) It was hot on Monday, but I took my jacket along, nevertheless, hanging it on a hook in my car. It was the start of a long day of meetings, the pinnacle of which was to be a reception that Glenn Beck was holding for an exclusive group of people in a Jerusalem apartment, and I wanted to look my official best. ....
On Monday, my jacket remained in my car. And so did I.
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"My jacket remained in my car. And so did I."
What the heck does that mean ?
Did Feiglin come to the conclusion he couldn't support Beck's rally while driving around and then decide not to attend the reception ?
If Feiglin was a real leader, he'd have attended the reception, explained his concerns to Beck, made his feelings known, got Beck's response and proceeded from there.
Instead we get this piece in A7 ?
Am I reading this wrong ?
Feiglin's heart is in the right place, but he really needs to re-evaluate his tactics. As a member of the 'exclusive group' invited to attend the reception at the apartment in Jerusalem, Feiglin had an opportunity and a responsibility to voice his concerns directly to Beck at that time.
Instead he chose to remain in his car with his jacket.
Puhlease.
Moshe claims he brought the jacket along because he wanted to look his 'official best'.
Well Moshe, your official best isn't looking too good to me.
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Glenn Beck is not a Christian, he's a Mormon, and that cult believes in a completely different version of G-d than Christianity. It teaches arrogant men that they can become just like G-d and rule over their own planets. To me this is extremely evil.
I do think he genuinely supports Israel but I could be wrong on that, so in that sense what he says is a good thing. At least he tends to be a better influence on Americans with respect to that issue than someone like Obama anyway.
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Feiglin should shut his fat trap. He doesn't have too much to say about the Arabs who infest Israel, but is a real big mouth when it comes to Glen Beck. That's because it's safe and easy to attack Beck. Feiglin likes to hear himself talk. Israel finally has an extremely influential media personality who is genuinely on Israel's side, and Feglin is gonna f.... everything up.
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Feiglin should shut his fat trap. He doesn't have too much to say about the Arabs who infest Israel, but is a real big mouth when it comes to Glen Beck. That's because it's safe and easy to attack Beck. Feiglin likes to hear himself talk. Israel finally has an extremely influential media personality who is genuinely on Israel's side, and Feglin is gonna f.... everything up.
Well said.
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As I tried to post at a7 (they do not accept or publish my comments there), there are a lot of glenn beck fanboys out there (including on this site) who are really worked up over all this but how about taking into consideration what feiglin says? In terms of his projewish stance, is becks job to say "I'm pro israel" or is it to take into consideration what real Jewish people stand for and work with them from there?
The bottom line is, it cannot be said loudly enough: jerusalem is JEWISH it is ours, not yours. It is not xtian. Feiglin is just the messenger so his ties to this group or that group or his personal life in any other respect is NOT relevant to the point he raises about glenn beck.
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As I tried to post at a7 (they do not accept or publish my comments there), there are a lot of glenn beck fanboys out there (including on this site) who are really worked up over all this but how about taking into consideration what feiglin says? In terms of his projewish stance, is becks job to say "I'm pro israel" or is it to take into consideration what real Jewish people stand for and work with them from there?
The bottom line is, it cannot be said loudly enough: jerusalem is JEWISH it is ours, not yours. It is not xtian. Feiglin is just the messenger so his ties to this group or that group or his personal life in any other respect is NOT relevant to the point he raises about glenn beck.
The conundrum comes in that Jerusalem is considered to be a holy city by Christians too. You can be annoyed with this if you want to but it doesn't change it. Isn't it better for them to believe that way and yet support the Jewish ownership of Jerusalem than to believe that way and want to take it away from Jews like the Muslims do?
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Its obvious Moshe made up his mind not to welcome Beck from the get go. I don't think just because he says, 'your G-d is my G-d' means that Glenn is carelessly revealing his evil plans for a Christian take-over of Israel.
The truth is that Glenn knows that the Christians MUST support Israel and the Jews. He knows that if Christians stray away from Israel, they stray away from righteousness; he is really on the same page as Chaim on this and many other issues. And he also has said numerous times that the Jews are the chosen ones, and that Israel is a Jewish state and he wouldn't focus on this so much if he intends to start an inquisition.
I find Moshe's attitudes very narrow-minded and disappointing.
I have followed Beck for the past few years and must say if he was pushing any replacement theology ideas they went clear over my head... Some days it almost seemed like he prepared his show with material taken from our forum... I think Beck sees Israel as the canary in the coal mine when it comes to muslims undermining non muslim countries... I personally think Feiglin is barking up the wrong tree for his own reasons when it comes to Beck however I won't labor the point... For most Christians visiting Israel its a chance to see what they consider the Holy Land... They know they are in a land the belongs to the Jewish people... I don't think there is even a question of this in most peoples mind who make the trip. Personally I think the problem is that Beck is generating just a bit too much PR for maintaining the Jewish State and only the Jewish State... I am not 100% sure where Feiglin comes down on this issue but I have an idea... That Idea tells me he would rather Beck stay quiet generate less public opinion on the issue back here in the U.S.A and sort of let events take their course over the next year or so.
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I must say that I agree with what Moshe says about Glenn Beck and most of the non-Jewish zionists... But I also have to give Glenn Beck credit for standing up for the Jewish cause. We should not push him and his supporters away because they may be able to sway public opinion towards Israel and the Jewish people...
I myself have always felt that Christians who support Israel are doing so not because they feel that the Jews are right, or that helping Hashems people is what G-d wants.... But they help Israel because their faith tells them that Israel is important for the end-of-times 'prophecies' of the Christian bible. I still feel this way, and apparently Moshe Feiglin feels this way also...
But I also believe that non-Jews are essential to help Israel out in the field of 'world opinion'. I will not push them away and I will attempt to get them to understand the Jewish belief.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/145734
Feiglin Warns Against Glenn Beck’s ‘Heartwarming Crusade’
by Gil Ronen
Moshe Feiglin, head of the Jewish Leadership faction inside Likud, has come out swinging against media personality Glenn Beck following Beck’s visit to Israel this week and ahead of his August “Restoring Courage” event in Jerusalem.
Feiglin told readers of his weekly column that he had decided to turn down an invitation to a reception for Beck in eastern Jerusalem. Feiglin's sees hidden motives behind Beck's decision to hold a large rally benetah next to the southern side of the Mount.
“Beck is considered – quite justifiably so – as the best public defender of Israel, and especially the Israeli Right,” Feiglin acknowledged. “When one watches a well dressed, thoughtful and influential American who glues millions of viewers to the screen with explanations that Israel’s Right has already despaired of – one immediately feels great joy and pride. Glenn Beck is without doubt a great supporter of the Israeli cause.”
Beck’s speech before a Knesset committee Monday sounded like a page from the Jewish Leadership newsletter, Feiglin added. “But then Beck said the following words – 'I invite you to join us… your nation is my nation and your G-d is my G-d.'”
“Since Beck is not in a process of conversion to Judaism and since we already have experience with Christian lovers of Israel, we gathered that this quote from the Scroll of Ruth should not be understood in its original meaning of ‘I am joining you’ but that the real meaning of the words is apparently – ‘I am replacing you.’”
The Temple Mount is not a Christian site, explained Feiglin. “It is certainly not a Muslim one. Glenn Beck talks a lot about the need to say the truth. Well then, let us say it. The Temple Mount is solely the place of the Jewish Temple.”
“All nations who understand this are welcome to come to it (within the area that they are allowed to enter) and to pray to the G-d of Avraham, Yitzchak and Ya’akov. Esau and Yishmael have their own holy places – do not touch the Holies of Israel.”
Feiglin wrote that it is becoming clearer that Beck represents Christian “replacement theology” (“supersessionism”) that sees Christianity as the “New Israel,” seeks to bring “waves of Christian aliyah” to Israel and “use Jewish redemption as a jumping board for Christian redemption.”
Feiglin accused the Jewish and nationalist leaders who “flock” to Beck of inadvertently assisting “a very refined and heartwarming kind of modern crusade.”
(IsraelNationalNews.com)
You seem to give much thought to the beliefs, and actions, of Christians.
Being that I am Christian, one of the dreaded Roman Catholics, I can say with some authority...you are wrong more often than not.
You have done quite a bit, in an attempt, to 'push away' the Christian members of JTF.
So at least be honest about it.
I think Glen Beck is sincere.
He knows that Israel and America are in the same boat.
Sitting by and allowing Israel to be destroyed, is sitting by and allowing America to be destroyed. He is religious and decent. Why look for evil motives? Ahhhh...he is the wrong religion. hmmmmmm....sound familiar.
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The conundrum comes in that Jerusalem is considered to be a holy city by Christians too. You can be annoyed with this if you want to but it doesn't change it. Isn't it better for them to believe that way and yet support the Jewish ownership of Jerusalem than to believe that way and want to take it away from Jews like the Muslims do?
Believing it's holy is fine. Believing it belongs to anyone other than Jews in the Jewish homeland is not fine. Believing the rightful ownership is anything other than jewish is not fine.
Otherwise any such Christian is simply repeating the mistaken deeds of the catholic church as from day 1 they used all of their political power and influence that they possibly could to wrest Jerusalem away from the Jews. That effort to make Jerusalem "international" persists to this very day and it has taken the form of giving half that capital to the enemies of the Jewish people and making the holy cites run by international/foreign forces (back to the days of the british mandate, let the pogroms begin). And that is the result of any attitutde that says Jerusalem does not belong to the Jews.
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Believing it's holy is fine. Believing it belongs to anyone other than Jews in the Jewish homeland is not fine. Believing the rightful ownership is anything other than jewish is not fine.
Otherwise any such Christian is simply repeating the mistaken deeds of the catholic church as from day 1 they used all of their political power and influence that they possibly could to wrest Jerusalem away from the Jews. That effort to make Jerusalem "international" persists to this very day and it has taken the form of giving half that capital to the enemies of the Jewish people and making the holy cites run by international/foreign forces (back to the days of the british mandate, let the pogroms begin). And that is the result of any attitutde that says Jerusalem does not belong to the Jews.
Which Catholic church would you be referencing now? There are a few as you well know... I am sure you mean the Pope and the evil RCC... I don't believe the RCC wanted Jerusalem as bad as you think they do because if they really did I am sure they might have had it by now... The way things are going it will soon be in muslim hands anyway which will make it almost inaccessible to everyone but the muslims... Israels leadership doesn't seem to want to hold the line on that or the two state solution... As I said most normal Christians only want access to the holy sites not control... As is mostly the case with Israel the bugaboo is the issue thats getting all the attention.... At the end of the day surprise' surprise they will end up the the dreaded two state solution because everyones eyes were diverted from the actual issue.
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Which Catholic church would you be referencing now? There are a few as you well know... I am sure you mean the Pope and the evil RCC... I don't believe the RCC wanted Jerusalem as bad as you think they do because if they really did I am sure they might have had it by now...
:o
First of all, I was not aware that there was a catholic church other than the RCC. Then wouldn't it not be catholic?
Secondly, if Beck adopts the same stance, it doesn't matter if he's Catholic, or Mormon, or Buddhist, or Atheist. It's equally wrong.
As to the RCC "not wanting jerusalem badly," I'm sorry to say this but you are blissfully unaware of the history. The whole idea that Jews could return a presence (let alone a control over) to Jerusalem was a point of theological contention that basically sank Catholic theology when it happened. And you can damn well bet that they were fuming and trying every last measure to prevent it from happening, and the history of the actions they took bears this out.
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:o
First of all, I was not aware that there was a catholic church other than the RCC. Then wouldn't it not be catholic?
Secondly, if Beck adopts the same stance, it doesn't matter if he's Catholic, or Mormon, or Buddhist, or Atheist. It's equally wrong.
As to the RCC "not wanting jerusalem badly," I'm sorry to say this but you are blissfully unaware of the history. The whole idea that Jews could return a presence (let alone a control over) to Jerusalem was a point of theological contention that basically sank Catholic theology when it happened. And you can damn well bet that they were fuming and trying every last measure to prevent it from happening, and the history of the actions they took bears this out.
There are quite a few Catholic churches.... Anglican, Eastern Orthodox, RCC, Russian Orthodox... In the past I am sure the RCC church tried to get their grips on Jerusalem just as the Muslims did and are still trying to do... Today however I believe that it would suffice the church enough to have access to its holy sites... The main point of this thread was about Becks activity in Israel... In my opinion I think he has nothing but good intentions... I think Feiglin is tossing out a red herring for distraction however this is only my opinion on the situation.
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There are quite a few Catholic churches.... Anglican, Eastern Orthodox, ... Russian Orthodox...
I don't believe they call themselves "catholic." Christian maybe, but not Catholic. Am I wrong?
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I have never seen a post change course like this one did.
All I will say is there is good and bad in all people and religion has nothing to do with it.
There are bad Christians and good Christians, and Yes there are good Jewish people and there are bad
As far as anyone bringing up the Mormons that is their religion just like the Jewish people and Christians believe in their religion,
I say any religion that's doesn't want to kill people and doesn't fly planes into buildings is ok with me.
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And it's funny you say they are fine with just having access to holy sites, because if that was the case, they have had access for as long as Israel has controlled the sites, and they will certainly lose access if they put the muslims in charge. They might as well leave well alone if thats all they wanted, and yet we see their strong push to divide the capital city and to take control of holy sites AWAY from the Israelis. That to me proves that they are not happy with just access to the sites.
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And it's funny you say they are fine with just having access to holy sites, because if that was the case, they have had access for as long as Israel has controlled the sites, and they will certainly lose access if they put the muslims in charge. They might as well leave well alone if thats all they wanted, and yet we see their strong push to divide the capital city and to take control of holy sites AWAY from the Israelis. That to me proves that they are not happy with just access to the sites.
When you see the Pope and a bunch of cardinals and church ladies parachuting into the holy sites then you should worry until then I think Israel will keep control of the holy land unless they give it away to the muslims.
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When you see the Pope and a bunch of cardinals and church ladies parachuting into the holy sites then you should worry until then I think Israel will keep control of the holy land unless they give it away to the muslims.
The amount of ignorance of history here is unfortunate.
But this you could know from really recent current events:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3194646,00.html
"Vatican also wants Jerusalem?
Vatican envoy: Israel, [Fak]estinians cannot be trusted to safeguard holy sites
Ahiya Raved
Published: 01.04.06, 00:08 / Israel News
Israel cannot be trusted? The Vatican's legal advisor in Israel, David Jaeger, harshly criticized Israel’s policy regarding safeguarding Christian holy sites."
Aside from that article which I recommend reading, there is also Israeli history. Like I said, From Day One. You think that the Vatican has no political sway?
In addition, listen to what the pope says every once in a while and you will see that the Vatican believes Jerusalem is under occupation.
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Jerusalem will always be the Holiest site of Judaism no matter what other religions attempted to claim it as their own. I feel the same, I think, as KWRBT. Although I am not sure what Mr. Becks intentions are, and it is my nature to always extend the benefit of the doubt to every man and woman until I have reason to not do so.
I have a friend who is a mormon and I have no problem with it. Although we cannot really discuss religion because on several occasions he has said things which set me off, and in the hope of friendship I bite my lip. But I do think that someone needs to stand up and tell the truth, and I don't see any really strong Jews in the media who are standing up for Israel. Why is this? I cannot really answer. Maybe it is the fear of being accused of being a part of the 'global zionist conspiracy' or something. I do believe that many good intentioned Jews, myself included, often spend too much time worrying if something I do will make people hate Jews more. I have come to the point of not hiding my zionist intentions in any way. I am not a part of any conspiracy, I am a part of a historic movement for the betterment of Jews scattered to the four corners of the world.
I want the nations of the world to come to realize that Hashem is the One G-d of all the world, of all the people, and the creator of everything. I believe it is hard for them to really understand what the big deal to religious Jews concerning these matters. Only a Jew who comes from a people who have been persecuted at the hands of so many 'good meaning' peoples around the world can really understand the suspicion that some of us have. I fully appreciate the help given to Israel and the Jewish people. There are many good people who have helped the Jews in our mission and I surely believe that they have merit and will be rewarded.
May we all merit to see the redemption, and we will all know the truth...
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The amount of ignorance of history here is unfortunate.
But this you could know from really recent current events:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3194646,00.html
"Vatican also wants Jerusalem?
Vatican envoy: Israel, [Fak]estinians cannot be trusted to safeguard holy sites
Ahiya Raved
Published: 01.04.06, 00:08 / Israel News
Israel cannot be trusted? The Vatican's legal advisor in Israel, David Jaeger, harshly criticized Israel’s policy regarding safeguarding Christian holy sites."
Aside from that article which I recommend reading, there is also Israeli history. Like I said, From Day One. You think that the Vatican has no political sway?
In addition, listen to what the pope says every once in a while and you will see that the Vatican believes Jerusalem is under occupation.
So you are taking one small man's word, come on lets be real here.
It's very sad when people get paranoid.
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Jerusalem will always be the Holiest site of Judaism no matter what other religions attempted to claim it as their own. I feel the same, I think, as KWRBT. Although I am not sure what Mr. Becks intentions are, and it is my nature to always extend the benefit of the doubt to every man and woman until I have reason to not do so.
I have a friend who is a mormon and I have no problem with it. Although we cannot really discuss religion because on several occasions he has said things which set me off, and in the hope of friendship I bite my lip. But I do think that someone needs to stand up and tell the truth, and I don't see any really strong Jews in the media who are standing up for Israel. Why is this? I cannot really answer. Maybe it is the fear of being accused of being a part of the 'global zionist conspiracy' or something. I do believe that many good intentioned Jews, myself included, often spend too much time worrying if something I do will make people hate Jews more. I have come to the point of not hiding my zionist intentions in any way. I am not a part of any conspiracy, I am a part of a historic movement for the betterment of Jews scattered to the four corners of the world.
I want the nations of the world to come to realize that Hashem is the One G-d of all the world, of all the people, and the creator of everything. I believe it is hard for them to really understand what the big deal to religious Jews concerning these matters. Only a Jew who comes from a people who have been persecuted at the hands of so many 'good meaning' peoples around the world can really understand the suspicion that some of us have. I fully appreciate the help given to Israel and the Jewish people. There are many good people who have helped the Jews in our mission and I surely believe that they have merit and will be rewarded.
May we all merit to see the redemption, and we will all know the truth...
You are right sometimes you are better off not talking to friends about religion or politics.
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And it's funny you say they are fine with just having access to holy sites, because if that was the case, they have had access for as long as Israel has controlled the sites, and they will certainly lose access if they put the muslims in charge. They might as well leave well alone if thats all they wanted, and yet we see their strong push to divide the capital city and to take control of holy sites AWAY from the Israelis. That to me proves that they are not happy with just access to the sites.
To be honest it bothers me also when the RCC mixes into the question of the two state solution... As long as Jews retain control of the Holy Land there would never be a problem for people wishing to visit doing so... I think the church might be doing a few things to hedge their bets because they feel Israel will eventually give the muslims what they are after... As you say however little does the church know they will have no access despite all the tuckus kissing they are doing....The church is also a very politically correct organization and this is the type of policy that comes out of thinking like that... Brass tacks sad to say its no worse then some of the thinking that comes out of Israels own government... Contrary to what it may seem I am not a staunch defender of the church however I do become disturbed when people become distracted from the real issues by looking towards Rome for the root of the problem... I honestly don't see it being there in today's world.
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I don't believe they call themselves "catholic." Christian maybe, but not Catholic. Am I wrong?
I have been told time and time again by our Serbian members that they are the real Catholics.... It's been an ongoing debate here for years here on the forum... For me Christians are religions like the Baptists, Mormons, Methodists and the like... Who knows.... Honestly I don't have problem with most G-d fearing people as long as they allow others to follow their own religions in peace.
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I think the question that comes into my mind is if there is as much merit if a righteous gentile brings about redemption and wakes up the Jewish people versus if it was a righteous Jew.
Let's assume beck's intentions are good and one that a righteous gentile would do. We as jtfers should be happy. If it brings about the redemption of the Jewish people and saving Israel, is as meritorious compared to if it were a Jew doing the same thing?
Some here on the forum might believe it doesn't matter while I feel others here who are Jewish would feel embarrassed that there wasn't a Jew who should have done the same thing as beck. (I'm sure many Jews have tried and have been shot down.)
My opinion is that the most merit comes when as large a number of righteous Jews together bring about the redemption versus one person. Amongst these Jews it is even better when righteous Gentiles are amongst them. I think this is what jtf is.
Feiglin shouldn't be complaining. He should be embarrassed that he joined Likud instead of creating a separate mass movement political party. Face it, he compromised his ideals. He's a good guy, but not good enough. Chaim and all of here are good enough. Kahane was good enough.
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I have been told time and time again by our Serbian members that they are the real Catholics.... It's been an ongoing debate here for years here on the forum... For me Christians are religions like the Baptists, Mormons, Methodists and the like... Who knows.... Honestly I don't have problem with most G-d fearing people as long as they allow others to follow their own religions in peace.
Oh, that's interesting. I didn't know that. The media refers to "The Catholic Church" and they definitely mean the Roman Catholic Church (vatican), but I guess there are people who object to that. Good to know.
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So you are taking one small man's word, come on lets be real here.
It's very sad when people get paranoid.
HE'S THE VATICAN ENVOY!? YOU DON'T THINK HE REPRESENTS THE VATICAN'S VIEWS?!!!
OH MY WORD
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jbeige, it's hilarious you call it paranoia. Did you not pay attention to 60 plus years of history when the Vatican, the Pope, his envoys, his cardinals, and all the people who represent his church constantly insisted that Jerusalem must be made an international city? After the 6 day war, you didn't pay attention to the cables that were sent saying Israel must leave there?
Please do not call me paranoid because you are ignorant of history.
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Believing it's holy is fine. Believing it belongs to anyone other than Jews in the Jewish homeland is not fine. Believing the rightful ownership is anything other than jewish is not fine.
Otherwise any such Christian is simply repeating the mistaken deeds of the catholic church as from day 1 they used all of their political power and influence that they possibly could to wrest Jerusalem away from the Jews. That effort to make Jerusalem "international" persists to this very day and it has taken the form of giving half that capital to the enemies of the Jewish people and making the holy cites run by international/foreign forces (back to the days of the british mandate, let the pogroms begin). And that is the result of any attitutde that says Jerusalem does not belong to the Jews.
Did Glenn Beck ever say it should belong to anyone but Jews?
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Did Glenn Beck ever say it should belong to anyone but Jews?
I don't think he has ever said that. However, there are a lot of Jews on the left and right who don't trust the intentions of non Jews' pro-Israel stance. At best, they take it with a grain of salt.
Why is this? Because of a bitter history between Christians and Jews that we cannot deny didn't take place. In the Israeli school systems, I assume they really get into it..(and unfortunately, they don't get into it about the Muslims half as much).
I can understand the guilty until proven innocent mentality. To each their own. But if you are going to have this kind of distrust of someone like Glen Beck, or let's say, Bachmann and Huckabee, who are born again Christians, where is that more outspoken distrust to the Muslim and Arab leaders then? Those are the ones who want to pursue Jewish and Israeli blood; not Huckabee, Bachmann and Glen Beck!
I embrace the righteous gentiles support so long as they understand what KWRBT and Muman have been saying. Israel belongs to the Jews, righteous gentiles are welcome. Their love and support are welcome. It is a commandment and a mitzvah for a rigtheous gentile to love the Jewish people. Those who bless us will be blessed and those who curse us will be cursed.
And appropriately, us Jews should have grace and love for righteous gentiles much like we have love for our fellow Jews. Even though gentiles are commanded to love the Jewish people, I believe, us Jews, should still say, "Thank you, and Gd bless you."
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i Think this all comes from systematic brainwashing, the same thing that has happened here in the U.S.
Jews are taught to NOT trust gentiles and to be TOLERANT of everything else (Including Islam). Members of Peace Now have this hard-wired in them... so if they see Glen Beck supporting Israel, it goes against everything that was programmed into them.... They absolutely CANNOT have Right-wing Gentiles disrupt their brainwashed preconceived ideas and they REFUSE to let Judaism be perceived as anything other than Leftist.
if 50% of Muslims say the Hollocaust is a myth, Leftist Jews ignores it...... But if Glen Beck says, 'I share your God' the Leftists focus in on it with a laser... and say.... Look, its the Spanish Inquisition.
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i Think this all comes from systematic brainwashing, the same thing that has happened here in the U.S.
Jews are taught to NOT trust gentiles and to be TOLERANT of everything else (Including Islam). Members of Peace Now have this hard-wired in them... so if they see Glen Beck supporting Israel, it goes against everything that was programmed into them.... They absolutely CANNOT have Right-wing Gentiles disrupt their brainwashed preconceived ideas and they REFUSE to let Judaism be perceived as anything other than Leftist.
if 50% of Muslims say the Hollocaust is a myth, Leftist Jews ignores it...... But if Glen Beck says, 'I share your G-d' the Leftists focus in on it with a laser... and say.... Look, its the Spanish Inquisition.
But Moshe Feiglin is not on the left, and there is an issue even with the religious right concerning Beck... There is a problem that the Christians are just expecting the Jews to conveniently forget about ages of persecution for not believing in their messiah. Where my family emigrated from in the Ukraine there were massive pogroms against the Jews. Look at the list of places the Jews were expelled from over the centuries and it is hard to say that they were all exiled because they were liberal leftists.
I do agree that the liberal left hates Beck. I do not hate him in the least. I just have legitimate questions as to the reasons for his support of Israel. As KWRBT has pointed out the recent history shows that the vatican and other christian apparatuses really want to get land in Israel for their churches and want to make Jerusalem an 'international city'.
But I disagree with you Briann that our discussion here has anything to do with left wing self-hating Jews.
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I don't think he has ever said that. However, there are a lot of Jews on the left and right who don't trust the intentions of non Jews' pro-Israel stance. At best, they take it with a grain of salt.
Why is this? Because of a bitter history between Christians and Jews that we cannot deny didn't take place. In the Israeli school systems, I assume they really get into it..(and unfortunately, they don't get into it about the Muslims half as much).
I think the irony in this is that they are attacking not the Christians that are anti-Semitic but the ones who aren't, as if they don't fit what a Christian should be somehow in their eyes and want to some how correct them and say 'no, you're an anti-Semite, stop lying to yourself and to us'. So then the Christian either says 'fine you have this attitude I WILL be then' or they have patience and try not to let such behavior drive them away or over the edge. The second choice is obviously the better one.
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But Moshe Feiglin is not on the left, and there is an issue even with the religious right concerning Beck... There is a problem that the Christians are just expecting the Jews to conveniently forget about ages of persecution for not believing in their messiah. Where my family emigrated from in the Ukraine there were massive pogroms against the Jews. Look at the list of places the Jews were expelled from over the centuries and it is hard to say that they were all exiled because they were liberal leftists.
I do agree that the liberal left hates Beck. I do not hate him in the least. I just have legitimate questions as to the reasons for his support of Israel. As KWRBT has pointed out the recent history shows that the vatican and other christian apparatuses really want to get land in Israel for their churches and want to make Jerusalem an 'international city'.
But I disagree with you Briann that our discussion here has anything to do with left wing self-hating Jews.
Well, there are some Jews on the right and left who do not trust Christians or other gentiles especially when they show support for Israel. The distrust is justified by years of terrible incidents that had taken place. I understand the guilty until proven innocent mentality. However, I think with some of the right wing Jews, they have more distrust for gentiles who support Israel compared to arab muslim nazis. I think that is a terrible thing because there are gentiles who genuinely support Israel and we should thank them for their support. I understand vigilance if it is needed given the experiences in the past, but better to embrace the support than to say, "No Thank you," as Feiglin did. And what does he have up his sleeve to save Jerusalem...so far it is compromising his principles and joining Likud. What did Chaim so in his last askJTF opening? We disagree with compromising our principles even if it makes us unpopular. Feiglin as well as many right wing politicians have broken that rule. They cannot be relied on to truly help.
Feiglin isn't a bad guy..don't get me wrong. I just disagree with his approach on this matter specifically.
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I think the irony in this is that they are attacking not the Christians that are anti-Semitic but the ones who aren't, as if they don't fit what a Christian should be somehow in their eyes and want to some how correct them and say 'no, you're an anti-Semite, stop lying to yourself and to us'. So then the Christian either says 'fine you have this attitude I WILL be then' or they have patience and try not to let such behavior drive them away or over the edge. The second choice is obviously the better one.
Rubystars, I agree with you on this. On the one hand I can understand vigilance against Christians by many right wing Jews because of the past. I accept it. On the other hand, it's not smart, in my opinion to turn away the support. Of course, when accepting support, a vigilant Jew should add his disclaimer and be like, "listen, this is how it is and how it's going to be. If you don't agree and you have other intentions, I'm sorry, this isn't going to work."
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jbeige, it's hilarious you call it paranoia. Did you not pay attention to 60 plus years of history when the Vatican, the Pope, his envoys, his cardinals, and all the people who represent his church constantly insisted that Jerusalem must be made an international city? After the 6 day war, you didn't pay attention to the cables that were sent saying Israel must leave there?
Please do not call me paranoid because you are ignorant of history.
You know what is ignorant for anyone to think one group of people OWN the holy land, the holy land has roots in many religions including the Christian religion, Israel and the Jewish people are the Keepers as they should be, they run the show.
I will not argue with you but I would like to know how the Catholics are going to take over the holy land???
You are very intelligent tell us how. Thank you.
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I think the irony in this is that they are attacking not the Christians that are anti-Semitic but the ones who aren't, as if they don't fit what a Christian should be somehow in their eyes and want to some how correct them and say 'no, you're an anti-Semite, stop lying to yourself and to us'. So then the Christian either says 'fine you have this attitude I WILL be then' or they have patience and try not to let such behavior drive them away or over the edge. The second choice is obviously the better one.
Good point. Be patient. Sane Jews know that there are Christians who are true friends of them.
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You know what is ignorant for anyone to think one group of people OWN the holy land, the holy land has roots in many religions including the Christian religion, Israel and the Jewish people are the Keepers as they should be, they run the show.
I will not argue with you but I would like to know how the Catholics are going to take over the holy land???
You are very intelligent tell us how. Thank you.
Look, sorry, but KWR BT is right on this one. The Vatican has led a very anti-Israel policy over the years.
And, yes, Israel belongs to the Jewish people. There is nothing to negotiate here.
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You know what is ignorant for anyone to think one group of people OWN the holy land, the holy land has roots in many religions including the Christian religion, Israel and the Jewish people are the Keepers as they should be, they run the show.
I will not argue with you but I would like to know how the Catholics are going to take over the holy land???
You are very intelligent tell us how. Thank you.
I dont know how old you are but it seems you have missed great chunks of History.
First of all. The FIRST religion which held that Jerusalem was a Holy city was Judaism. And from Judaism two other so-called 'monotheistic faiths' branched off from Judaism and then asserted this 'replacement theology' which basically said that the Jews no longer are the chosen people, and now the Christians or the Muslims are the chosen ones and the Jews are children of Satan or decended from pigs and apes... The fact that others came along and stole our Holy Land does not excuse the fact that the land and the holiness of the spot was Stolen from the Jewish people. G-d himself says that he established an EVERLASTING COVENANT with the Jewish people and this covenant WILL NEVER be destroyed. So the very concept of replacement theology stands against the very 'Testament' which these religions hold as their link to the divine {our HOLY TORAH}.
Second, the Vatican has worked long and hard to rid the world of the Jewish people. Only in 1964 during the second vatican council was the accusation of 'DEICIDE' removed from their sermons. The accusation that the Jews killed the Christian G-d is ridiculous and it led to antisemitism which still exists to this day.
The Vatican to this day is working hard to make sure that the Jewish people are dislocated from our land...
Evidence most recently in 2000 when the Vatican made a pact with Arafat:
http://www.ou.org/public_affairs/article/ou_criticizes_vatican_pa_pact_on_jerusalem
OU Criticizes Vatican-P.A. Pact on Jerusalem
February 23, 2000
Today, the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America - the nation’s largest Orthodox Jewish umbrella organization, through its Institute for Public Affairs criticized the Vatican’s recently signed agreement with the Palestinian Authoriy.
The agreement, signed by Pope John Paul II and Yasser Arafat, is an attempt by the Vatican to inappropriately influence the peace process. The agreement comes at a crucial stage of the peace process and places unnecessary pressure on already tense negotiations. The agreement’s attempt to redefine Jerusalem as a "international city" is an assault on Jerusalem’s status as the eternal and indivisible capital of the State of Israel.
Orthodox Union President, Dr. Mandell Ganchrow stated "throughout its history, Israel has taken extraordinary steps to protect religious freedom for people of all religions. This agreement’s insinuation that Israel has not met, or exceeded, all of her obligations in regard to the protection of the holy sites and the religious rights of all individuals is an insult to the State of Israel." Ganchrow went on to add that "this agreement is a violation of previous agreements signed by Israel and the Palestinians limiting the types of agreements that the Palestinian Authority could make."
http://www.templeinstitute.org/archive/03-21-00.htm
Last month, in the very midst of Israel's fever-pitch preparations for the Pope's visit this week, Israel was shocked to find that the Vatican announced the signing of a special agreement with the PLO. What a remarkable alliance! But truthfully, it is understandable if the peace-loving, godly Pope has apparently forgotten that the Nobel-prize winning Arafat is the most accomplished terrorist and murderer of our generation, single- handedly responsible for the deaths of scores of innocent men, women and children. After all, this is the man who proved to the entire world that murder really does pay off, for he has received recognition, and is accepted internationally as a head of state. Besides, America's leader has embraced Arafat and put good faith in him, and more importantly, in utter madness beyond all sane reasoning, in their self-imposed death march, so have the Israelis - so, who could blame the Pope?
http://www.ou.org/index.php/shabbat_shalom/article/53703/
Pope Benedict XVI’s recent eight-day pilgrimage to Jordan, Israel and the Palestinian territories can best be understood in historical perspective.
When in 1904 Theodor Herzl, founder of Zionism, turned to Pope Pius X for support for a Jewish state, he was told that until the Jewish people converted to Christianity, the Church would do nothing to establish a Jewish state and that Roman Catholic priests would be waiting on the shores of Palestine to convert those pioneers who returned to Palestine.
Fast forward 60 years to January, 1964, and the first ever papal visit to Israel - by Pope Paul VI. During his short unofficial trip to Israel - it lasted only 11 hours - Paul VI never once uttered the name of the State of Israel, refused to call Zalman Shazar “President”, and went out of his way to avoid using the word Jews.
With Catholic triumphalism still the official theology, the Vatican viewed Israel as a non-country, and its people as persona non grata. Paul VI even used the occasion to praise his mentor Pope Pius XII, defending the latter's silence during the Holocaust.
The following year, the Vatican issued the historic Nostra Aetate declaration on the relation of the Church to non-Christian religions. Nostra Aetate ultimately led to the Holy See and Israel establishing diplomatic ties in 1993.
Those relations reached their apogee in March 2000 when Pope John Paul II arrived for the first-ever official papal visit to the Holy Land. The Polish-born pontiff blessed Israel, an act seen by many Israelis as final church recognition of their state and repudiation of the Catholic Church’s centuries-long teaching of contempt that the Jews' exile was punishment for the death of Jesus.
But the current pontiff Joseph Ratzinger is no Karol Wojtyła. The former was a member of the HitlerJugend in his native Germany before being drafted into Hitler’s Wehrmacht; the latter grew up in Nazi-occupied Poland and was a witness to the Holocaust. Moreover John Paul II was a figure of enormous charisma and charm while his successor is widely seen as aloof.
Benedict XVI’s official visit must be seen against this background. The visit got off to an inauspicious start during the pontiff’s visit to Yad Vashem. While beatitude is in the eye of the beholder, the Pope angered many Israelis by refusing to visit the Holocaust memorial’s museum – which contains a panel criticizing Pope Pius XII’s role during World War II. Even more offensive was Benedict XVI's speech.
"A few points were missing in the pope's address. There was no mention of the Germans, or Nazis, who carried out the massacre. There was not a word of sharing the grief or of compassion or pain for the six million victims,” Rabbi Yisrael Meir Lau, a former chief rabbi and now chairman of the Yad Vashem Council, told Israel TV Channel One shortly afterwards.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_Vatican_Council
One of the more controversial documents was Nostra Aetate, which stated that the Jews of the time of Christ, taken indiscriminately, and all Jews today are no more responsible for the death of Christ than Christians.
True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ; still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ. Furthermore, in her rejection of every persecution against any man, the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel's spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone.[21]
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But Moshe Feiglin is not on the left, and there is an issue even with the religious right concerning Beck... There is a problem that the Christians are just expecting the Jews to conveniently forget about ages of persecution for not believing in their messiah. Where my family emigrated from in the Ukraine there were massive pogroms against the Jews. Look at the list of places the Jews were expelled from over the centuries and it is hard to say that they were all exiled because they were liberal leftists.
I do agree that the liberal left hates Beck. I do not hate him in the least. I just have legitimate questions as to the reasons for his support of Israel. As KWRBT has pointed out the recent history shows that the vatican and other christian apparatuses really want to get land in Israel for their churches and want to make Jerusalem an 'international city'.
But I disagree with you Briann that our discussion here has anything to do with left wing self-hating Jews.
Muman, I didnt bring up the left wing self-hating Jews outa nowhere, I was just adding on to what a previous poster said (I think it was Dr. Dan)
And What Moshe said, wasnt that Jews should be careful and should never forget history. Moshe said Glen Beck has ulterior motives to remove Judaism from Israel and guess what??? Moshe is wrong, and this should be pointed out.
YES, I understand that to many Israeli Jews, it seems perplexing that 95% of White American Gentiles would support a Jewish state, but maybe Moshe should figure out WHY, before dismissing Beck (their Archetype) as just another person who wants to remove Judaism from Israel.
Maybe, he should go to JTF and see the what the gentiles say. Maybe he should listen to Beck and his unwavering and unflinching support for Judaism. Maybe he should listen to the countless groups of gentiles that belong to groups like Christians united for Israel, and see what they say... maybe he should be more knowledgeable on such a significant issue.
Honestly, before I saw JTF and started to Listen to Beck and others, I too was sorta in the dark about gentiles. That doesn't mean I suddenly forget about history, it means, at LEAST I started to understand WHY.
I agree with what Dr. Dan is saying, I obviously beleive that Moshe DOES have Jewish interests at heart, BUT Chaim is 1000x more knowledgable when it comes to gentiles and their motivation, and Moshe's ignorance is not helping Jews the way he thinks it is.
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For more background of the Catholics Churches influence on antisemitism read this:
http://www.innernet.org.il/article.php?aid=560
THE CRUSADES
[Nearly 1,000 years ago, the Crusader 'holy war' was launched.] In general, the Church found Muslim control of Christian holy places in Israel intolerable, especially when reports came from Jerusalem of harassment of Christians visiting the holy sites. As such, in 1095 Pope Urban II called for an army of Christians to conquer Israel from its Muslim rulers... The Church saw as its mission spreading Christian rule, which they termed the "Kingdom of G-d," over the heathen infidels...
Although the Pope viewed the Crusades as a campaign led by a professional, well-trained army, the excursion rapidly evolved into a mass movement, with an estimated 100,000 people dropping everything to join. As a proportion of the European population, a comparable response today would be well over a million people "taking the cross," as it was known. In addition, the Church provided a further incentive by promising that whoever took part in the endeavor would earn a special place in heaven. From that moment, participants were known as Crusaders, after the French word for the crosses affixed to their garments.
The First Crusade started out from France in 1095. In order to remain in the good graces of the Crusaders, French Jews supplied funds and food for the journey. However, when some of the Crusaders reached Germany, their mood changed drastically. Among many Crusaders the feeling grew rapidly that before they attacked the heathens in far-off Palestine, there were infidels much closer to home with whom they should contend.
In May 1096, in a period of four weeks, frenzied bands of Crusaders struck the Jewish communities of Speyer, Worms, Mainz and Cologne. The Jews were offered the option of conversion to Christianity or death; the vast majority chose the path of sanctification of G-d's name... Estimates of the toll taken on the Jewish communities range from 3,000 to 10,000 deaths...
Undaunted, unstoppable, the Crusaders conquered Israel, reaching Jerusalem in 1099. Once there, they gathered all the Jews of Jerusalem into the central synagogue and set it afire. Other Jews, who had climbed to the roof of Al-Aksa mosque on the Temple Mount, were caught and beheaded. The Crusader leader, Godfrey of Bouillon, wrote to the Pope, "If you want to know what has been done with the enemy found in Jerusalem... our people had their vile blood up to the knees of their horses." After this victory, the Crusaders retained control of Jerusalem for close to 100 years.
Although compared to later tragedies the loss of Jewish life was relatively small, with the main devastation occurring in but four Rhineland towns, the First Crusade has generally been regarded by Jews as a disaster of epic proportions. The period of counting the omer, between Passover and Shavuot, when the massacres occurred, became fixed in Jewish law as a time for mourning. A prayer commemorating the martyrs, "Av HaRachamim," was added to the Sabbath morning services and is still recited weekly, except on joyous occasions. Several Kinnos were composed remembering these events and became part of the Tishah B'Av service. There are several reasons why the First Crusade has been given such prominence, while other, seemingly far greater tragedies have not:
The four towns destroyed were major Torah centers of Ashkenazic Jewry. Although Jews resettled and rebuilt these communities, and Ashkenazic Torah centers flourished, the greatness of these cities' martyred scholars was lost forever.
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Look, sorry, but KWR BT is right on this one. The Vatican has led a very anti-Israel policy over the years.
And, yes, Israel belongs to the Jewish people. There is nothing to negotiate here.
and I will add, gentiles are allowed to come and worship there. Even with the third temple there will be an area for them to go.
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Muman, I didnt bring up the left wing self-hating Jews outa nowhere, I was just adding on to what a previous poster said (I think it was Dr. Dan)
And What Moshe said, wasnt that Jews should be careful and should never forget history. Moshe said Glen Beck has ulterior motives to remove Judaism from Israel and guess what??? Moshe is wrong, and this should be pointed out.
YES, I understand that to many Israeli Jews, it seems perplexing that 95% of White American Gentiles would support a Jewish state, but maybe Moshe should figure out WHY, before dismissing Beck (their Archetype) as just another person who wants to remove Judaism from Israel.
Maybe, he should go to JTF and see the what the gentiles say. Maybe he should listen to Beck and his unwavering and unflinching support for Judaism. Maybe he should listen to the countless groups of gentiles that belong to groups like Christians united for Israel, and see what they say... maybe he should be more knowledgeable on such a significant issue.
Honestly, before I saw JTF and started to Listen to Beck and others, I too was sorta in the dark about gentiles. That doesn't mean I suddenly forget about history, it means, at LEAST I started to understand WHY.
I agree with what Dr. Dan is saying, I obviously beleive that Moshe DOES have Jewish interests at heart, BUT Chaim is 1000x more knowledgable when it comes to gentiles and their motivation, and Moshe's ignorance is not helping Jews the way he thinks it is.
I should add that Feiglin is missing the huge picture. It's not Beck who is trying to replace Judaism or remove it from Israel.. It is the anti-religious left wing Jews who are trying to do that!!!
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For more background of the Catholics Churches influence on antisemitism read this:
http://www.innernet.org.il/article.php?aid=560
Muman, I think it is good to add these as a part of a historical context to support your point of view. However, if you disagree with me, can you tell me what you disagree with and why. And what do you agree with what I have written. Your opinion is important to me.
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Muman, I think it is good to add these as a part of a historical context to support your point of view. However, if you disagree with me, can you tell me what you disagree with and why. And what do you agree with what I have written. Your opinion is important to me.
I was not posting that in reply to your posts... I was trying to remind jbeige of the historical context of the Catholic church in relation to Jerusalem.
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I was not posting that in reply to your posts... I was trying to remind jbeige of the historical context of the Catholic church in relation to Jerusalem.
I know you were. I just want to know what you think about what I wrote in regards to the redemption of Israel and which has the most merit. I think that a concerted effort by a lot of Jews and righteous gentiles amongst them gives the most merit versus one righteous gentile or one righteous Jew.
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I was not posting that in reply to your posts... I was trying to remind jbeige of the historical context of the Catholic church in relation to Jerusalem.
Im starting to think this thread should be split into two, lol.
I am glad that your are letting jbeige know of the Catholic church and its evil history. No question about it.
I would like to mention that while all that is certainly true, and should never be forgotten, their pre-65 views really HAVE started to wane (Obviously not completely)
That doesnt mean I think they are pro-Jew, certainly not like protestants, BUT, both Paul and Benedict have been quite vocal at saying the old pre-65 views which were the basis of Catholic jew-hatred are nonsense and go against their own gospels, etc. I know it was late, but it HAS made a change.
Even Benedict, who is a fossil himself and was a Hitler Youth has rejected the evil nonsense pre-65 Catholic stupidity.
Again, Im not a Catholic Church apologist, not at all. but they I have seen them SLOWLY change for the better. And I think its that slow change that has helped bring catholic members to this forum... something that probably would NOT have happened in the 1960's or even the 1980's.
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Im starting to think this thread should be split into two, lol.
I am glad that your are letting jbeige know of the Catholic church and its evil history. No question about it.
I would like to mention that while all that is certainly true, and should never be forgotten, their pre-65 views really HAVE started to wane (Obviously not completely)
That doesnt mean I think they are pro-Jew, certainly not like protestants, BUT, both Paul and Benedict have been quite vocal at saying the old pre-65 views which were the basis of Catholic jew-hatred are nonsense and go against their own gospels, etc. I know it was late, but it HAS made a change.
Even Benedict, who is a fossil himself and was a Hitler Youth has rejected the evil nonsense pre-65 Catholic stupidity.
Again, Im not a Catholic Church apologist, not at all. but they I have seen them SLOWLY change for the better. And I think its that slow change that has helped bring catholic members to this forum... something that probably would NOT have happened in the 1960's or even the 1980's.
Or perhaps they became smarter and don't say what they mean outright. Back in the day, Europe was full of Nazis.. Now they sound normal, but still push for Israel's suicide. The same, unfortunately, is true with the spokes people of the Catholic Church.
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I know you were. I just want to know what you think about what I wrote in regards to the redemption of Israel and which has the most merit. I think that a concerted effort by a lot of Jews and righteous gentiles amongst them gives the most merit versus one righteous gentile or one righteous Jew.
I do believe that a righteous gentile has great merit in the Jewish belief. The Torah clearly holds these non-Jews who come to believe in the one G-d of Israel in high esteem. The first such great 'converts' to Judaism was Yitro, who was for all intent and purpose a High Priest of Idolatry.
Certainly a Jew who renounces his birth-right and despises his inheritance is a chillul Hashem and they lose merit, and may even lose their Olam Haba...
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Rubystars, I agree with you on this. On the one hand I can understand vigilance against Christians by many right wing Jews because of the past. I accept it. On the other hand, it's not smart, in my opinion to turn away the support. Of course, when accepting support, a vigilant Jew should add his disclaimer and be like, "listen, this is how it is and how it's going to be. If you don't agree and you have other intentions, I'm sorry, this isn't going to work."
On the other hand there should be some understanding from the Christians as to why there is this barrier and that's where the patience should come from, but nobody likes to be treated as if they're a rattlesnake either.
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On the other hand there should be some understanding from the Christians as to why there is this barrier and that's where the patience should come from, but nobody likes to be treated as if they're a rattlesnake either.
Exactly.
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i Think this all comes from systematic brainwashing, the same thing that has happened here in the U.S.
Jews are taught to NOT trust gentiles and to be TOLERANT of everything else (Including Islam). Members of Peace Now have this hard-wired in them... so if they see Glen Beck supporting Israel, it goes against everything that was programmed into them.... They absolutely CANNOT have Right-wing Gentiles disrupt their brainwashed preconceived ideas and they REFUSE to let Judaism be perceived as anything other than Leftist.
if 50% of Muslims say the Hollocaust is a myth, Leftist Jews ignores it...... But if Glen Beck says, 'I share your G-d' the Leftists focus in on it with a laser... and say.... Look, its the Spanish Inquisition.
WOW
This thread gets sicker by the day. Since I disagree with you I'm brainwashed? Really that's hilarious. Can you tell me who brainwashed me and who taught me not to trust gentiles. Perhaps you're forgetting I grew up reform and the reform "rabbi" preached that jews and gentiles are all the same, so how did I become brainwashed?
No let's face facts I come to the conclusion based on the facts. If you're not aware of facts calling me brainwashed doesn't help you.
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Did Glenn Beck ever say it should belong to anyone but Jews?
What he said was this:
"“They are going to attack the center of our faith, our common faith, and that is Jerusalem. And it won’t be with bullets or bombs. It will be with a two-state solution that cuts off Jerusalem, the old city, to the rest of the world.”"
I do not know much about his particular brand of religion, and I seriously wonder if it would even allow him to note that the city belongs to the Jews.
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You know what is ignorant for anyone to think one group of people OWN the holy land, the holy land has roots in many religions
And there it is, folks.
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Feiglin should shut his fat trap. He doesn't have too much to say about the Arabs who infest Israel, but is a real big mouth when it comes to Glen Beck. That's because it's safe and easy to attack Beck. Feiglin likes to hear himself talk. Israel finally has an extremely influential media personality who is genuinely on Israel's side, and Feglin is gonna f.... everything up.
AGREED BIG TIME!
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And there it is, folks.
Here in lies the problem. The jews don't want jerusalem. The israeli government doesn't fight hard enough for it. The us and the world could say this or that. Israel might day no once our twice until they give in.
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Here in lies the problem. The jews don't want jerusalem. The israeli government doesn't fight hard enough for it. The us and the world could say this or that. Israel might day no once our twice until they give in.
I think you're missing the point of the quote though.
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I think what Briann was trying to say (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) is that most American Jews, who are of Ashkenazic ancestry, and who are liberal, have a deep down fear of white, right wing Christians. Given the horrible history of their persecution in Europe, I don't blame them. I say "them" because I'm not of Ashkenazic ancestry. The other thing is that the media always labels Nazism as "right wing" which is completely wrong. Unfortunately, many people (Jews and non-Jews) buy into this.
In the case of Glenn Beck, you have a white, conservative Mormon, of German ancestry who is very pro-Zionist. So someone like Feiglin will be scared by that.
Now as for Beck himself, I like him. Right now, I don't sense any missionary intent from him either.
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Glenn Beck enumerated all these and much more all the tragedies that befell the Jews.I saw him on a live feed on my computer he was speaking at the CUFI convention
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What he said was this:
"“They are going to attack the center of our faith, our common faith, and that is Jerusalem. And it won’t be with bullets or bombs. It will be with a two-state solution that cuts off Jerusalem, the old city, to the rest of the world.”"
I do not know much about his particular brand of religion, and I seriously wonder if it would even allow him to note that the city belongs to the Jews.
Mormonism is not a good religion AT ALL in my opinion. Its only merit is that it's relatively peaceful to outsiders (they ring people's doorbells, but don't blow themselves up with suicide vests when people answer the door or anything horrible like that) but I have never heard him personally advocate for a two state solution. Your quotation from him would show that he is against it, and really that's enough right now as far as helping Israel. If there is no two state solution, the ownership of Jerusalem will be the Jews by default, not the Mormon church. If he starts doing so then of course we should stand against him.
My impression of Glenn Beck as an individual is generally a good one even if I think his religion is kooky at best.
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This is craziness!
Israel, and especially Jerusalem, holds historical and religious importance to many groups of people. Not just the Jews. It is just a fact. That is why we stand with you. Not against you.
Yet...many of you sit here and rip us apart.
What has Glen Beck done to earn your distrust? He is a Mormon? So what. How is that a threat to you?
You must have confidence in your own faith. Otherwise, everyone is a perceived threat and that makes you weak.
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Mormonism is not a good religion AT ALL in my opinion. Its only merit is that it's relatively peaceful to outsiders (they ring people's doorbells, but don't blow themselves up with suicide vests when people answer the door or anything horrible like that) but I have never heard him personally advocate for a two state solution. Your quotation from him would show that he is against it, and really that's enough right now as far as helping Israel. If there is no two state solution, the ownership of Jerusalem will be the Jews by default, not the Mormon church. If he starts doing so then of course we should stand against him.
My impression of Glenn Beck as an individual is generally a good one even if I think his religion is kooky at best.
My impression of Glenn Beck is also generally good, but, I have to question anyone who is duped into converting to Mormonism. Your description of it as being a "kooky religion" is an understatement.
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While I disagree with his religious beliefs, I think Glen Beck's motives are good.
I don't think he has any false agenda. He definitely supports and loves Israel.
Too many people are overly concerned with the supporters of Israel and their "intentions" rather than the enemies of Israel trying to kill the Jews.
Glen beck was one of the only voices on television and radio brave enough to confront many of the same issues we do.
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This is craziness!
Israel, and especially Jerusalem, holds historical and religious importance to many groups of people. Not just the Jews. It is just a fact. That is why we stand with you. Not against you.
Yet...many of you sit here and rip us apart.
What has Glen Beck done to earn your distrust? He is a Mormon? So what. How is that a threat to you?
You must have confidence in your own faith. Otherwise, everyone is a perceived threat and that makes you weak.
It has nothing to do with the fact that he's mormon. I couldn't care less what kind of religion he follows. The main thing is that he thinks jerusalem is not the capital city of the jewish people, that its supposed to be some kind of shared city of western heritage or some such, and as we find out in this thread there are apparently even some people at jtf who think that just because other groups came in and wiped out and expelled jews and then had a "history" there of their own or otherwise have a shared cultural heritage with that city, that therefore jews cannot be allowed to have ownership over it and say what goes. That is a travesty IMO.
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Wait, who here is saying Jews cannot have ownership of Jerusalem? What was it that Beck said that led you to believe he doesn't think Jerusalem belongs to the Jews?
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This is craziness!
Israel, and especially Jerusalem, holds historical and religious importance to many groups of people. Not just the Jews. It is just a fact. That is why we stand with you. Not against you.
Yet...many of you sit here and rip us apart.
What has Glen Beck done to earn your distrust? He is a Mormon? So what. How is that a threat to you?
You must have confidence in your own faith. Otherwise, everyone is a perceived threat and that makes you weak.
This man has done nothing but support the state of Israel, even though he continues to be villified for strongly and vigorously defending Jews and the Jewish state. How about some gratitude for this courageous atypical media personality
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This man has done nothing but support the state of Israel, even though he continues to be villified for strongly and vigorously defending Jews and the Jewish state. How about some gratitude for this courageous atypical media personality
I, for one, have always been gracious for what any gentile does when he/she supports the Jewish people in our fight for our homeland. There is the important concept of Hakaret HaTov {Appreciating the Good} ( http://www.tfdixie.com/parshat/vaera/004.htm ) in all things. But I also am cautious because there is a greater purpose for a Jew to settle the land of Israel. Israel is also the center of the Jewish faith, and we cannot accept any other faith because Hashem has told us to worship him and him alone. We will never worship a messiah which we know is not the Jewish redeemer. And we will never forget that there will be a punishment for those who have injured the Jewish people and have not repented for it.
A religious Jew must think twice before allowing representatives of alternative 'gods' to assist us in the Holy task of occupying our land. I am sorry if this sounds anti-egalitarian but I believe it is what Hashem wants from us.
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I, for one, have always been gracious for what any gentile does when he/she supports the Jewish people in our fight for our homeland. There is the important concept of Hakaret HaTov {Appreciating the Good} ( http://www.tfdixie.com/parshat/vaera/004.htm ) in all things. But I also am cautious because there is a greater purpose for a Jew to settle the land of Israel. Israel is also the center of the Jewish faith, and we cannot accept any other faith because Hashem has told us to worship him and him alone. We will never worship a messiah which we know is not the Jewish redeemer. And we will never forget that there will be a punishment for those who have injured the Jewish people and have not repented for it.
A religious Jew must think twice before allowing representatives of alternative 'gods' to assist us in the Holy task of occupying our land. I am sorry if this sounds anti-egalitarian but I believe it is what Hashem wants from us.
What I don't understand is how you seem to feel sorry for starving Somalians who are enemies to Israel, but do not greet with open arms people like Glen Beck who are outspoken, relatively speaking, in supporting Israel and conservative values.
I'm not suggesting asking for an alliance from another nation or a group of people....I'm simply saying accepting help from gentiles like Glen Beck.
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A religious Jew must think twice before allowing representatives of alternative 'gods' to assist us in the Holy task of occupying our land
Muman, please stop bashing the Christians. I'm getting really tired of it.
And please spare the 8 paragraph response proving how you should be hateful to the members of the forum. You make our Christian members feel so alienated. And they wind up thinking you sound arrogant and hateful.
No one has any question on where you stand at this point so it's not something you need to rehash over and over again.
Here at JTF, we support our Christian members who assist us in the Holy task... not push them away, embarrass them, and treat them like garbage (reminding me of another forum).
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Muman, please stop bashing the Christians. I'm getting really tired of it.
And please spare the 8 paragraph response proving how you should be hateful to the members of the forum. You make our Christian members feel so alienated. And they wind up thinking you sound arrogant and hateful.
No one has any question on where you stand at this point so it's not something you need to rehash over and over again.
Here at JTF, we support our Christian members who assist us in the Holy task... not push them away, embarrass them, and treat them like garbage (reminding me of another forum).
I am not bashing anyone. Is it not important to be honest about things before we get involved in a relationship?
I am agreeing with KWRBT who thinks that there is an ulterior motive for Beck. I have said that I am still open and willing to hear whether there is an ulterior motive. Can you just imagine after all the help from CUFI and Beck and now Hagee that at some point they will say.... "Look we helped you turn things around, now you can be secure in the land due to our help.... But we want a little part of Jerusalem, and this holy site, and that site, etc." I sometimes fear that that will be what it comes to.
JTF is, in my opinion, a religious Zionist organization. Should we not ask questions and ensure that our allies are really on the same page as we are?
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What I don't understand is how you seem to feel sorry for starving Somalians who are enemies to Israel, but do not greet with open arms people like Glen Beck who are outspoken, relatively speaking, in supporting Israel and conservative values.
I'm not suggesting asking for an alliance from another nation or a group of people....I'm simply saying accepting help from gentiles like Glen Beck.
It seems you have missed my entire message...
I am not against Glenn Beck. Read my posts ever since the first post I have said I appreciate Beck, I am moved by Beck, he is a Charismatic speaker who is genuinely interested in making a difference. I am not Anti-Beck and never have been.
And I am not 'sorry' for starving Somalians. I simply stated that they should be self-sufficient so that others do not have to take care of them. Teaching others is not a hard thing to do. I am not for cruelty to the kind, and as I stated in that thread it is a Jewish way to daven for the peace of all the righteous, even those caught up in an unrighteous society.
There is no contradiction in my approach. On the issue of Beck I am open to listen to others opinions. But I also stand firm with what KWRBT is saying and Feiglin is concerned with which is the Jewish nature of Jerusalem. I am against dividing Jerusalem 100% with any non-Jewish entity.
If I have not been clear about this then please ask me another question.
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I am not bashing anyone. Is it not important to be honest about things before we get involved in a relationship?
I am agreeing with KWRBT who thinks that there is an ulterior motive for Beck. I have said that I am still open and willing to hear whether there is an ulterior motive. Can you just imagine after all the help from CUFI and Beck and now Hagee that at some point they will say.... "Look we helped you turn things around, now you can be secure in the land due to our help.... But we want a little part of Jerusalem, and this holy site, and that site, etc." I sometimes fear that that will be what it comes to.
JTF is, in my opinion, a religious Zionist organization. Should we not ask questions and ensure that our allies are really on the same page as we are?
Ask questions, but if we are going to be an uncompromising group of people, then if it were ever to happen if a gentile turned around and said, "We want something in return now that we have helped you." Our answer should be, "Gd will bless you and your children, thank you for your help. You cannot own any holy sites, but you are welcome to worship and make sacrifices in the righteous gentile section of the holy temple."
That's the thing. I get it. Some gentiles will help and then potentially turn around and say, "Well, we helped you, what do we get in return from you?"
I don't care if someone else as ulterior motives. Let them have ulterior motives. That does not stop us from being Gd's chosen people. It does not stop us from being Jews. It does not stop us from doing the right things in life.
I'll put it to you this way, if they want a signed contract to own a part of Jerusalem for their help, we shouldn't sign anything because it is against the Torah to make alliances and treaties. There should be no promises...just thanks and friendship and a blessing.
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Ask questions, but if we are going to be an uncompromising group of people, then if it were ever to happen if a gentile turned around and said, "We want something in return now that we have helped you." Our answer should be, "Gd will bless you and your children, thank you for your help. You cannot own any holy sites, but you are welcome to worship and make sacrifices in the righteous gentile section of the holy temple."
That's the thing. I get it. Some gentiles will help and then potentially turn around and say, "Well, we helped you, what do we get in return from you?"
I don't care if someone else as ulterior motives. Let them have ulterior motives. That does not stop us from being Gd's chosen people. It does not stop us from being Jews. It does not stop us from doing the right things in life.
I'll put it to you this way, if they want a signed contract to own a part of Jerusalem for their help, we shouldn't sign anything because it is against the Torah to make alliances and treaties. There should be no promises...just thanks and friendship and a blessing.
Amen...
I agree with you...
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Amen...
I agree with you...
So again, where is Glen Beck asking for a contract? We should reward a Kolekavod when anyone especially the Glen Becks out there say something correct; not turn away and say, "oo, you MIGHT have ulterior motives."
I think KWRBT is wrong on the Glen Beck aspect. I know that it is just an opinion, but it's incorrect to have this opinion about him.
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I do not see any clear evidence that supports Feiglin's interpretation of Beck's words. Feiglin makes assumptions about Beck's motives and obviously has a negative bias toward him. How can he claim that he is able to see Beck's hidden motives ? So far, Beck has done nothing that should cause Jews to be suspicious. He has done anything but good for Israel's perception in America, at a time when we don't have many friends. So, as other JTFers have pointed out before me, I think it is very awkward of Feiglin to give Beck such a cold and hostile greeting.