JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: muman613 on October 19, 2011, 03:55:37 PM
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The mormon religion engages in a practice called 'Baptism' where they will 'baptize' dead Jews and 'convert' them to Mormonism... I have always found this practice to be very offensive although in reality these people are just engaging in a form of Avodah Zara and the 'baptism' is only a fantasy in their shriveled brains. In reality the Jew remains Jewish and his/her soul remains in Gan Eden where it belongs, not in gehinnom where the mormons are destined. In their attempt to steal Jewish souls and 'convert' them to a form of idol worship is beyond an abomination. I hate them for this practice...
Recently I befriended a man who claims to believe in mormonism.... One of the first things I told him is that his church MUST cease to attempt to steal Jewish souls after they have left this world for their eternal reward.
Can you believe these KOOKS actually thinks that they converted Anne Franke {of blessed memory} to mormonism? That is beyond sick..
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/19/opinion/dowd-anne-frank-a-mormon.html
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Aside from Joseph Smith, whom Hitchens calls “a fraud and conjurer well known to the authorities in upstate New York,” the writer also wonders about the Mormon practice of amassing archives of the dead and “praying them in” as a way to “retrospectively ‘baptize’ everybody as a convert.”
Hitchens noted that they “got hold of a list of those put to death by the Nazis’ Final Solution” and “began making these massacred Jews into honorary LDS members as well.” He called it “a crass attempt at mass identity theft from the deceased.”
The Mormons even baptized Anne Frank.
It took Ernest Michel, then chairman of the American Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors, three years to get Mormons to agree to stop proxy-baptizing Holocaust victims.
Mormons desisted in 1995 after Michel, as the Jewish Telegraphic Agency reported, “discovered that his own mother, father, grandmother and best childhood friend, all from Mannheim, Germany, had been posthumously baptized.”
Michel told the news agency that “I was hurt that my parents, who were killed as Jews in Auschwitz, were being listed as members of the Mormon faith.”
Richard Bushman, a Mormon who is a professor emeritus of history at Columbia University, said that after “the Jewish dust-up,” Mormons “backed away” from “going to extravagant lengths to collect the names of every last person who ever lived and baptize them — even George Washington.” Now they will do it for Mormons who bring a relative or ancestor’s name into the temple, he said.
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They're total kooks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3BqLZ8UoZk
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I hope G-D (even through people and proper knowledge and the spread of it) destroys all religions and false beliefs.
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Yes, that is very creepy and worth hating, but I can't say that I hate Mormons.
Do you hate Glenn Beck? Even Chaim has said that he thinks Glenn is a good guy. I listen to him regularly, and he is a VERY sincere guy who REALLY cared for the Jews more than most Jews care about themselves.
I cant hate him, because there is something I dont like about his dogma. And most of the Mormons I have met and really gotten to know have very similar beliefs to him. They are incredibly supportive of Israel.
I try to be tolerant of the gentiles that hate Mormons here, and I understand why, but I just can't agree with hatred towards this group.
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The first criterion that I use to judge other religions is on how they treat the non-believers. How aggressively are they if at all in trying to convert people by persuasion, deceit or force to their religion. Then I also look at how they treat their own flock. And finally what are the actual principles of their faith.
So, if Mormons do this posthumous baptism I care very little. But the fact that they prey on living people with dishonest tactics is very disturbing. And their beliefs are very strange and very refutable, but what's more disturbing is that it seems they don't admit that they actually believe in those things, like for example, that Elohim is a man transcended into god or that women cannot achieve salvation without the backing of their man.
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Yes, that is very creepy and worth hating, but I can't say that I hate Mormons.
Do you hate Glenn Beck? Even Chaim has said that he thinks Glenn is a good guy. I listen to him regularly, and he is a VERY sincere guy who REALLY cared for the Jews more than most Jews care about themselves.
I cant hate him, because there is something I dont like about his dogma. And most of the Mormons I have met and really gotten to know have very similar beliefs to him. They are incredibly supportive of Israel.
I try to be tolerant of the gentiles that hate Mormons here, and I understand why, but I just can't agree with hatred towards this group.
The fact that Glenn Beck agrees with us on some things politically doesn't excuse his kooky bizarre religion nor does it change the fact that he seeks godhood. I don't hate Mormons themselves but what they follow is wrong and is based on freemasonry and not really based on Christianity. The magic underwear they wear has a square and compass on it. They borrow about as much "Christian" stuff as the Muslims do.
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The fact that Glenn Beck agrees with us on some things politically doesn't excuse his kooky bizarre religion nor does it change the fact that he seeks godhood.
What about Hindu Zionist? He is very supportive of our cause, but I could list some very disturbing things about Hunduism (Im not going to out of respect).
Chaim is right on his support for both Beck and Hindu Zionist. If people are incredibly supportive of Israel and the Jewish people, that should take precedent over our disagreements about their theology, non matter how kooky it seems to us.
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What about Hindu Zionist? He is very supportive of our cause, but I could list some very disturbing things about Hunduism (Im not going to out of respect).
Chaim is right on his support for both Beck and Hindu Zionist. If people are incredibly supportive of Israel and the Jewish people, that should take precedent over our disagreements about their theology, non matter how kooky it seems to us.
Hinduism for all its faults is not an outright cult, it's an established religion, even if there are a lot of things I personally don't like about it. Also Hinduism doesn't claim to be Christian like Mormonism does while spouting off anti-Christian beliefs.
I would work with Glenn Beck politically too, and I don't think he's necessarily a bad person, but the belief that one can become a god is very arrogant and to me anyone who really believes that and is trying to attempt to become that does have something wrong with them. It's a very selfish way of thinking too.
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Hinduism for all its faults is not an outright cult, it's an established religion, even if there are a lot of things I personally don't like about it. Also Hinduism doesn't claim to be Christian like Mormonism does while spouting off anti-Christian beliefs.
I would work with Glenn Beck politically too, and I don't think he's necessarily a bad person, but the belief that one can become a G-d is very arrogant and to me anyone who really believes that and is trying to attempt to become that does have something wrong with them. It's a very selfish way of thinking too.
Yes, I agree about the whole planet thing, very disturbing idea... as reincarnation as a cow. (Sorry Im bringing that up).
I actually have a mormon friend who I brought JTF to his attention, he sounded excited and interested about the forum.... but of course, I didnt expressly invite him, since I figured it would cause problems with some members here.
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Yes, I agree about the whole planet thing, very disturbing idea... as reincarnation as a cow. (Sorry Im bringing that up).
I actually have a mormon friend who I brought JTF to his attention, he sounded excited and interested about the forum.... but of course, I didnt expressly invite him, since I figured it would cause problems with some members here.
Hindus are very open about their beliefs. They don't all believe in cows. Hinduism incorporates many beliefs. And some of them are actually atheists.
On the other hand mormons are not open and not honest about what they believe in. not unlike Scientology.
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but the belief that one can become a G-d is very arrogant and to me anyone who really believes that and is trying to attempt to become that does have something wrong with them. It's a very selfish way of thinking too.
Umm, not trying to be offensive or start anything, but isn't that normative Christianity? (Or am I missing/misunderstanding something)? I thought its the same thing and that's why I'm wondering why the most outspoken agains't Mormans are other Christians that believe in a man-"god".
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Umm, not trying to be offensive or start anything, but isn't that normative Christianity? (Or am I missing/misunderstanding something)? I thought its the same thing and that's why I'm wondering why the most outspoken agains't Mormans are other Christians that believe in a man-"G-d".
There are a lot of things that are misunderstood about that. I don't think it's a good idea to get into the details on the open forum out of respect for our Jewish members sensibilities but if you want to you can send me a private message and I'll talk further about it.
In short though in standard Christianity, we serve God, we don't ever seek to become God. That would be considered to be like the sin of Adam and Eve who thought they could be like God (the way it's taught in Christianity). So the Mormons take this original sin and make it their eternal goal. That's completely the opposite of what Christians believe.
That's as good of a summary as I can put in the open forum without ruffling too many feathers.
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There are a lot of things that are misunderstood about that. I don't think it's a good idea to get into the details on the open forum out of respect for our Jewish members sensibilities but if you want to you can send me a private message and I'll talk further about it.
In short though in standard Christianity, we serve G-d, we don't ever seek to become G-d. That would be considered to be like the sin of Adam and Eve who thought they could be like G-d (the way it's taught in Christianity). So the Mormons take this original sin and make it their eternal goal. That's completely the opposite of what Christians believe.
That's as good of a summary as I can put in the open forum without ruffling too many feathers.
Ookay. Soo the difference is that mormans believe people become "god" while other Christian groups believe that "god" becomes people (or like people/man). - In simple terms.
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Yes, that is very creepy and worth hating, but I can't say that I hate Mormons.
Do you hate Glenn Beck? Even Chaim has said that he thinks Glenn is a good guy. I listen to him regularly, and he is a VERY sincere guy who REALLY cared for the Jews more than most Jews care about themselves.
I cant hate him, because there is something I dont like about his dogma. And most of the Mormons I have met and really gotten to know have very similar beliefs to him. They are incredibly supportive of Israel.
I try to be tolerant of the gentiles that hate Mormons here, and I understand why, but I just can't agree with hatred towards this group.
I dont hate individual Mormons.... I have a friend who calls himself a mormon... But I hate a religion which thinks it can steal Jewish souls and count them amongst their numbers...
Glenn Beck may have good intentions, and his pro-Israel message is certainly a breath of fresh air...
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Ookay. Soo the difference is that mormans believe people become "G-d" while other Christian groups believe that "G-d" becomes people (or like people/man). - In simple terms.
Well in the most simple terms I think it would be said by Christians that God related to people in a way they would be able to understand but it didn't in any way diminish the Divine nature. It's kind of complicated really but like I said it's not that good of an idea to get into it like this because I don't want people to think I'm missionizing even if I'm just trying to answer questions.
People who want to be just like God are committing a very serious sin according to traditional Christian belief.
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I don't have any problem with a religion which suggests that man try to be like G-d... Judaism has such an idea also...
We are commanded to 'Walk in the ways of Hashem' and this is meant to teach us that we should do everything we can do in order to emulate the way of G-d. The sages interpret this to mean that as Hashem does Kindness/Chesed so too are we supposed to do Chesed, as HE visits the sick {as he did to Abraham} so too we should visit the sick... The sages say that man should not emulate the anger and vengeance of G-d though...
http://www.torahlab.org/calendar/article/if_g_d_can_do_it_you_can_do_it/
If G-d Can Do It; You Can Do It!
By Rabbi Yaacov Haber
G-d set you aside from all the nations of the world to be your G-d, so that you can walk in His ways. (Devorim 26;17)
G-d chose us to be able to walk in His ways. In simpler terms we can act like G-d acts; we can be kind like G-d is kind; we can forgive like G-d forgives; we can have the same type of mercy that G-d has.
One of the most basic differences between the Jewish belief and the Christian belief is that according to the Christians, G-d can manifest Himself as a human. According to Judaism man can act like G-d.
We have the potential to act like G-d! Man can be Godly and indeed has an obligation to do so. The Torah revealed that man was created in the image of G-d. That means that the human being has within himself or herself to act just like G-d, to “walk in His ways.”
The Talmudic Rabbis observed that acting kindly is so central to Judaism that the Torah itself begins with an act of G-d’s kindness and ends with an act of G-d’s kindness. It’s all about G-d’s kindness and how we can “walk in His ways”.
The Torah starts with kindness by telling us how G-d made clothing for Adam and Eve. The Torah ends with kindness by telling us that G-d Himself buried Moses.
Why did the Talmud choose the example of G-d making Adam and Eve clothing? Certainly there were earlier acts of kindness. He created the world, He created man; He gave man a wife; He put them in Paradise and on and on. That He made them clothing sounds almost small compared to the earlier generosities of G-d!
The answer: To create the world, man and his environment are acts of kindness but not yet acts of Godly kindness. After all G-d wanted a world and man. He was more than happy to provide everything that they needed. But then man sinned. He and his wife ate of the forbidden fruit and G-d evicted them from the Garden. When He removed them from paradise He brought pain and death to the world. In the midst of this rejection, G-d saw that Adam and Eve felt awkward in their nakedness and “He made them clothing”. This is an act of Godly kindness. G-d was betrayed and violated yet He responded with kindness.
We can “walk in His ways” and indeed we are commanded to do so. We can be Godly.
This is how it’s done. Find someone who you really don’t like, perhaps someone who has hurt you or betrayed your friendship. Now think of something you can do to make that persons life easier or a bit more pleasant. At this point you will find yourself saying; “but I am only human!” So remember, to be only human is to be created in the image of G-d. We are designed to be super human.
As we do kindness with those that are perhaps undeserving, we can turn to G-d and ask Him to do kindness for us and bless us with a new year full of G-d’s kindness and blessing.
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Muman personally I think that aspiring toward a "godly" type of goodness and kindness is a good thing too. However to actually think you're going to rule your own planet as its god and that God is just a regular human like all of us (which Christians don't believe, regardless of what you may have heard) is very wrong.
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Muman personally I think that aspiring toward a "godly" type of goodness and kindness is a good thing too. However to actually think you're going to rule your own planet as its G-d and that G-d is just a regular human like all of us (which Christians don't believe, regardless of what you may have heard) is very wrong.
I agree... I don't know too much about what they believe... I don't ask my friend any questions about his belief...
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I agree... I don't know too much about what they believe... I don't ask my friend any questions about his belief...
If you ever do, ask him about the magic underwear with the square and compass on it, that he got during an "endowment" ceremony. Or don't... if you still want him as a friend.
It's not that hard to find information about what they believe though it's all over the net and a good chunk of it is in that video I posted.
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If you ever do, ask him about the magic underwear with the square and compass on it, that he got during an "endowment" ceremony. Or don't... if you still want him as a friend.
It's not that hard to find information about what they believe though it's all over the net and a good chunk of it is in that video I posted.
I quite literally have no interest in 'comparative religion'.... I take literally the command from our Torah not to seek out the names of deities or the rituals of others...
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I quite literally have no interest in 'comparative religion'.... I take literally the command from our Torah not to seek out the names of deities or the rituals of others...
That's well and good Muman under normal circumstances but when you have one of them running for president of the United States I think it's important to understand what they believe and how that might influence his decisions. Just like it's relevant that we have a Muslim in the white house, although Muslims are worse.
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Hindus are very open about their beliefs. They don't all believe in cows. Hinduism incorporates many beliefs. And some of them are actually atheists.
On the other hand mormons are not open and not honest about what they believe in. not unlike Scientology.
Guess what, the exact same is true with nearly every religion, including Mormonism.
Wikipedia
mainstream Mormonism" defined by the leadership of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). There are also two broad movements outside of mainstream Mormonism: Mormon fundamentalism, representing a conservative reaction to the LDS Church, and liberal reformist Mormonism, which advocates theologically liberal reform.
They even have a Lesbian/gay friendly movement now:
Restoration Church of Jesus Christ broke from the LDS Church as an LGBT-friendly denomination.
The Mormon I know does not beleive in many of the fundamentalist aspects. He always refers to himeslf as an LDS member.
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Personally, Mormonism seems kind of kooky to me. But then again, to each his own. They don't engage in jihad, or acts of terrorism for one thing. They don't blame people of other religions for the problems they create. From what I've been told, their churches/temples engage in lots of charities for their members. The ones I've had dealings with seem like smart, hard working people, who would never go on welfare and demand handouts.
As for the posthumous conversions, there's something I don't understand. How can Jews (or Christians) be converted to Mormonism without their even knowing it (due to being dead)? If someone is going to leave the Jewish/Christian faith, don't they have to do it on their own? I'm pretty sure the answer to that question is "yes." If so, then what difference do these hocus pocus ceremonies really make?
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Personally, Mormonism seems kind of kooky to me. But then again, to each his own. They don't engage in jihad, or acts of terrorism for one thing. They don't blame people of other religions for the problems they create. From what I've been told, their churches/temples engage in lots of charities for their members. The ones I've had dealings with seem like smart, hard working people, who would never go on welfare and demand handouts.
As for the posthumous conversions, there's something I don't understand. How can Jews (or Christians) be converted to Mormonism without their even knowing it (due to being dead)? If someone is going to leave the Jewish/Christian faith, don't they have to do it on their own? I'm pretty sure the answer to that question is "yes." If so, then what difference do these hocus pocus ceremonies really make?
The issue is that the Mormon records are used for genealogical research... If a person is looking to find the religion of their ancestors they may come across records that their ancestor was mormon {for example Anne Frank}... The LDS is one of the biggest databases for genealogical research..
Here is an online genealogy search @ http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp which uses the LDS records...
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp
http://www.ldsgenealogy.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Genealogical_Index
International Genealogical Index
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The International Genealogical Index (IGI) is a database of genealogical records, compiled from several sources, and maintained by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Originally created in 1969, the index was intended to help track the performance of temple ordinances for the deceased.
The IGI contains free genealogical information, submitted from various sources including names and data for vicarious ordinances by Latter-day Saints (LDS) researchers, records obtained from contributors who are not members of the church, and data extracted from microfilmed birth or marriage records. The index contains millions of records of individuals who lived between 1500 and 1900, primarily in the United States, Canada, Latin America, and Europe. Ongoing efforts are made to compile genealogical data from other regions and peoples.
The IGI contains many duplicate names, accumulated over time from many sources. Many IGI records contain information on the submitter and date of submission (but only with the submitter's consent). The IGI is available at FamilySearch, the LDS genealogy website.
In 1995, after a major controversy, a deal was struck between the Jewish and LDS communities to "Remove from the International Genealogical Index in the future the names of all deceased Jews who are so identified if they are known to be improperly included counter to Church policy."[1]
In 2008 The Vatican issued a statement directing its dioceses to keep parish records from Mormons performing genealogical research.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_Judaism#Baptism_for_the_dead
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I want to become a mormon so I can become a god and rule over a planet of my own and have endless sex with too many women.
That was a very nice bedtime story. I'll be sure to show it to my 4yo son.
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I want to become a mormon so I can become a G-d and rule over a planet of my own and have endless sex with too many women.
That was a very nice bedtime story. I'll be sure to show it to my 4yo son.
Kind of reminds me of how Muslims think they'll have endless sex with multiple women in eternity.
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I discovered how Brigham Young got his name. Seems that they had been in Utah for about twenty years and the women started to age and look haggard ;D. So he sent a letter to New York (where the Mormons started) asking those coming west to Utah to, "Bring em Young" in regard to the women that they were to travel with them. ;D
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I discovered how Brigham Young got his name. Seems that they had been in Utah for about twenty years and the women started to age and look haggard ;D. So he sent a letter to New York (where the Mormons started) asking those coming west to Utah to, "Bring em Young" in regard to the women that they were to travel with them. ;D
Good joke :::D
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One of the fundamental principles of Judaism is that G-d does not have a body.
I fail to understand, why the Mormons are being singled out over other Christian sects. Both violate this fundamental principle.
If you are trying to tell me that Mormonism is another Reason Not to Vote for Romney instead of a normal Christian candidate I disagree. If we don't have the option of someone who believes in the 7 laws of Noah, it makes no difference to us, if the candidate is a Baptist, Mormon or Catholic. What matters is his stand on the issues that are vital to us and to what extent we believe the candidate can be trusted.
And on the issue of Anne Frank, their Mumbo Jumbo words, have no halachic impact on her status and do not affect her relationship with G-d at all. Of course, if the Mormons ask me, if I approve of what they are doing, I will obviously tell them I do not.
In any case, I am more upset with the fundamentalists, who are saying Anne Frank is burning in Hell for not believing in Jeersus, than I am with fools that think she is in Heaven, because they said their Mumbo Jumbo.
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One of the fundamental principles of Judaism is that G-d does not have a body.
I fail to understand, why the Mormons are being singled out over other Christian sects. Both violate this fundamental principle.
If you are trying to tell me that Mormonism is another Reason Not to Vote for Romney instead of a normal Christian candidate I disagree. If we don't have the option of someone who believes in the 7 laws of Noah, it makes no difference to us, if the candidate is a Baptist, Mormon or Catholic. What matters is his stand on the issues that are vital to us and to what extent we believe the candidate can be trusted.
And on the issue of Anne Frank, their Mumbo Jumbo words, have no halachic impact on her status and do not affect her relationship with G-d at all. Of course, if the Mormons ask me, if I approve of what they are doing, I will obviously tell them I do not.
In any case, I am more upset with the fundamentalists, who are saying Anne Frank is burning in Hell for not believing in Jeersus, than I am with fools that think she is in Heaven, because they said their Mumbo Jumbo.
I kinda agree with you here. Yes, the Anne Frank thing is kooky, but how is it worse than the those who says I will burn in Hell for not believing exactly what they believe in?
Also, the only 'Jewish' issues I care about when it comes to POLITICS are moral values and Israel. If a Hindu candidate who supports Israel and family values (along with being anti-Illegal and anti-welfare) comes along, I will support them over a Jew who has little support of Israel and is for open borders, etc.
With a politician, its their issues that I care about.
Also, the 'Jeersus' term... is that a typo or some sorta slander? If so, I think you are offending many of our great members by using such a term... if its just a typo, than nevermind what I said. :)
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I agree that the Mormon religion is ridiculous. It professes to be part of Christianity but in actuality is completely different. it is a form of polytheism that teaches that men get to be gods in charge of their own planet of humans (which they populate by sex) if they are good enough Mormons. However, Mormon missionaries lie to Christians and others, claiming that they are Christians, so that they can convert them. It's almost like a form of taqqiyah. It's most comparable to deceptive Messianics who tell Jews that they are "Orthodox".
However, on an individual level, many Mormons are upstanding people in every way.
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A religious Jew is not supposed to state the name of an avodah zarah which is worshipped... This is why we don't type the j-mans name... I have explained this many times...
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I kinda agree with you here. Yes, the Anne Frank thing is kooky, but how is it worse than the those who says I will burn in Hell for not believing exactly what they believe in?
Also, the only 'Jewish' issues I care about when it comes to POLITICS are moral values and Israel. If a Hindu candidate who supports Israel and family values (along with being anti-Illegal and anti-welfare) comes along, I will support them over a Jew who has little support of Israel and is for open borders, etc.
With a politician, its their issues that I care about.
Also, the 'Jeersus' term... is that a typo or some sorta slander? If so, I think you are offending many of our great members by using such a term... if its just a typo, than nevermind what I said. :)
That's because despite their great and vast understanding, many people have somehow never heard of the name Yeshu. ;D
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One of the fundamental principles of Judaism is that G-d does not have a body.
I fail to understand, why the Mormons are being singled out over other Christian sects. Both violate this fundamental principle.
If you are trying to tell me that Mormonism is another Reason Not to Vote for Romney instead of a normal Christian candidate I disagree. If we don't have the option of someone who believes in the 7 laws of Noah, it makes no difference to us, if the candidate is a Baptist, Mormon or Catholic. What matters is his stand on the issues that are vital to us and to what extent we believe the candidate can be trusted.
And on the issue of Anne Frank, their Mumbo Jumbo words, have no halachic impact on her status and do not affect her relationship with G-d at all. Of course, if the Mormons ask me, if I approve of what they are doing, I will obviously tell them I do not.
In any case, I am more upset with the fundamentalists, who are saying Anne Frank is burning in Hell for not believing in Jeersus, than I am with fools that think she is in Heaven, because they said their Mumbo Jumbo.
Have you paid attention to any of this discussion or are you just venting here?
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Have you paid attention to any of this discussion or are you just venting here?
I think that it is a valid point that edu makes. From a theological standpoint there is very little difference {from a Jewish perspective}.
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And I would like to state once again that I have nothing against individual Mormons. I still have a good friendship with a man who is a mormon and we get along fine because he doesn't try to tell me about his beliefs {while I do tell him about Jewish beliefs}. But I don't know very many people who are mormons and don't want to know too much about them...
What motivated me to post this post was the NYT article which discussed the 'baptism' of Anne Frank... That really pushed a button for me..
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And I would like to state once again that I have nothing against individual Mormons. I still have a good friendship with a man who is a mormon and we get along fine because he doesn't try to tell me about his beliefs {while I do tell him about Jewish beliefs}. But I don't know very many people who are mormons and don't want to know too much about them...
What motivated me to post this post was the NYT article which discussed the 'baptism' of Anne Frank... That really pushed a button for me..
I'm curious, when was this article published?
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One of the fundamental principles of Judaism is that G-d does not have a body.
I fail to understand, why the Mormons are being singled out over other Christian sects.
They're not Christian! Muslims believe in a form of Jesus too, but that doesn't make them Christians. Just because a religion acknowledges Jesus in some way doesn't make it a Christian sect. I've even met new age pagan type people who acknowledge some form of Jesus as being a spiritual teacher like Buddha and Mohammed but that doesn't make them Christian either. Mormons think that Jesus is Satan's brother for goodness sakes. Does that sound Christian to you?
Both violate this fundamental principle.
I wasn't arguing whether they were compatible with Judaism or not. Clearly the only religions compatible with Judaism would be either Judaism or Noahidism. I fail to see your point.
If you are trying to tell me that Mormonism is another Reason Not to Vote for Romney instead of a normal Christian candidate I disagree. If we don't have the option of someone who believes in the 7 laws of Noah, it makes no difference to us, if the candidate is a Baptist, Mormon or Catholic. What matters is his stand on the issues that are vital to us and to what extent we believe the candidate can be trusted.
I have trouble trusting a kook who thinks he's going to become a G-d of his own planet. It makes me wonder why he would want to be president at all, honestly.
And on the issue of Anne Frank, their Mumbo Jumbo words, have no halachic impact on her status and do not affect her relationship with G-d at all. Of course, if the Mormons ask me, if I approve of what they are doing, I will obviously tell them I do not.
In any case, I am more upset with the fundamentalists, who are saying Anne Frank is burning in Hell for not believing in Jeersus, than I am with fools that think she is in Heaven, because they said their Mumbo Jumbo.
Wouldn't it be important to know that the future president of the USA might see Jews in a completely different way than previous presidents would and might therefore see Israel in a completely different way?
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Rubystars gives excellent responses. For the record I don't actually think that Romney would seek to turn the United States into a Mormon empire but I don't see why Mormonism should be above scrutiny or how it is somehow better than "Catholics or Baptists". Mormonism today might be a peaceful and law-abiding religion but Joseph Smith and Brigham Young themselves preached holy war and mass murder in the name of building a Mormon state. If that isn't Muslim-like I don't know what is. Joseph Smith was nothing more or less than an American Mohammed (ys).
It's also like Islam in that it is deceptive--it lies about what it is and its true intentions. How do we feel when Messianics lie to Jews about being Orthodox Jews and the like, after all? That same crap is core to Mormon theology in their missionizing efforts.
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I'm curious, when was this article published?
Yesterday...
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/19/opinion/dowd-anne-frank-a-mormon.html
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Rubystars,
According to this wiki entry it appears that mormonism is supposed to be pro-Israel...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_Judaism
Mormons and the State of Israel
Mormons, generally but not exclusively, are largely pro-Israel. Mormons, as well as many Jews, are also in favor of peaceful coexistence between Jews and non-Jewish (Muslim and/or Christian) Arabs in the Holy Land. The LDS people consider non-Jewish Arabs to be children of Abraham.
The LDS church has two congregations in Israel. These are the Galilee Branch in Tiberias and the Jerusalem Branch in Jerusalem. Latter-day Saints in Israel hold their worship services on Saturday, Jewish Sabbath.[8]
Mormons do not proselytize in the area and the members are discouraged from proselytizing. There are legal restrictions in Israel concerning this issue.[9]
Descendants of Israelites who can verify a claim to that descent (genetically or religiously, including in some cases relatives of Jews who are not themselves Jewish) are allowed by the Israeli government to immigrate to Israel under the Law of Return. Mormon theological claims of descent are not considered a sufficient basis for immigration under the Law of Return.
Brigham Young University has a study center in Jerusalem that is active in research and cultural activities (e.g. classical music concerts). Its creation was initially protested by Haredi Jewish groups which claimed, despite Mormon reassurances, that it would be a center of proselytizeing activities - but these soon died down. Brigham Young University was allowed to open an extension in Jerusalem only after promising the mayor that no proselytizing would take place and that all students would be foreigners.[10] The courses at the center, attracting students from BYU and other institutions of higher learning in the US who wanted to do credit coursework in Israel, were previously temporarily suspended due to the security situation.[11]
They are most certainly wrong that arabs have any claim to the Holy Land. The Torah clearly identifies Yitzak with the inheritance of Abraham as Ishmael was cast out of Abrahams house and was excluded from inheriting the land...
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Muman, the paragraphs you quoted really don't help their case at all.
Mormons, generally but not exclusively, are largely pro-Israel.
Obama also claims to be pro-Israel.
Mormons, as well as many Jews, are also in favor of peaceful coexistence between Jews and non-Jewish (Muslim and/or Christian) Arabs in the Holy Land. The LDS people consider non-Jewish Arabs to be children of Abraham.
You don't see the problem in this Muman? The "peaceful coexistence" between Jews and Arabs in the holy land means that they are basically in favor of the peace process. The 'peace process' as we all know is Israeli suicide.
The LDS church has two congregations in Israel. These are the Galilee Branch in Tiberias and the Jerusalem Branch in Jerusalem. Latter-day Saints in Israel hold their worship services on Saturday, Jewish Sabbath.[8]
Mormons do not proselytize in the area and the members are discouraged from proselytizing. There are legal restrictions in Israel concerning this issue.[9]
If there was no restriction legally, they would.
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Muman, the paragraphs you quoted really don't help their case at all.
Obama also claims to be pro-Israel.
You don't see the problem in this Muman? The "peaceful coexistence" between Jews and Arabs in the holy land means that they are basically in favor of the peace process. The 'peace process' as we all know is Israeli suicide.
If there was no restriction legally, they would.
Yes, I said in my post-script that the arabs have NO CLAIM to the land of Israel... The Peace process is a farce... At least Glenn Beck is aware of that...
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Yes, I said in my post-script that the arabs have NO CLAIM to the land of Israel... The Peace process is a farce... At least Glenn Beck is aware of that...
Glenn Beck has a lot more in common with us politically than Romney does though, to be fair to Glenn Beck. I think he's pro-Israel in spite of his religion rather than because of it though.
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Rubystars gives excellent responses. For the record I don't actually think that Romney would seek to turn the United States into a Mormon empire but I don't see why Mormonism should be above scrutiny or how it is somehow better than "Catholics or Baptists". Mormonism today might be a peaceful and law-abiding religion but Joseph Smith and Brigham Young themselves preached holy war and mass murder in the name of building a Mormon state. If that isn't Muslim-like I don't know what is. Joseph Smith was nothing more or less than an American Mohammed (ys).
It's also like Islam in that it is deceptive--it lies about what it is and its true intentions. How do we feel when Messianics lie to Jews about being Orthodox Jews and the like, after all? That same crap is core to Mormon theology in their missionizing efforts.
The tragedy of all this is that people put Romney under the microscope but give Obama the green light with his "church". And his"church" read honest about their hatred of whites and Jews
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The tragedy of all this is that people put Romney under the microscope but give Obama the green light with his "church". And his"church" read honest about their hatred of whites and Jews
We're all against Obama here as far as I know and I think most of us will support whatever Republican candidate is chosen to oppose Obama, but in the primary season it makes sense to put each candidate under the microscope.
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The entire baptizing the dead thing sounds crazy even form a Mormons standpoint... What validity would something like that have... Not to get into an entire thing over it however baptizing someone posthumously is really pointless... More so if the person had no connection the the religion when they were living... Whatever soul there was departed for its appointed destination at the time of death and was not waiting to be baptized by Mormons or anyone else... The Mormons would have better results baptizing the old oak tree in their back yard... :::D
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The Mormons would have better results baptizing the old oak tree in their back yard... :::D
Oh my gosh CJD don't give them ideas! :::D
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We're all against Obama here as far as I know and I think most of us will support whatever Republican candidate is chosen to oppose Obama, but in the primary season it makes sense to put each candidate under the microscope.
All the debates they have been having are very good... It allows people to see the full slate of candidates... I only hope that the debates are not turning off the crossover vote... As we speak my feet are planted in the Romney camp... After years of following political issues something tells me that Romney might be just whats needed at this point in time... I really could not care less that he is a Mormon I don't think it will be an issue as far as him being president goes... I could support Cain as a VP but he has made a few gaffs that tell me he is not ready to take on the entire ball of wax... Cain may have had a shot in the general elections if he were not running against another black man and was better versed on world issues... Our sitting president also being black will have the freedom to call him every Uncle Tom and house [censored] under the sun and the vast majority of democraps will agree with him...He will have the freedom to be quite relentless in his attacks against Cain... The fact that Cain is weak on foreign affairs is a very big problem in todays world.
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All the debates they have been having are very good... It allows people to see the full slate of candidates... I only hope that the debates are not turning off the crossover vote... As we speak my feet are planted in the Romney camp... After years of following political issues something tells me that Romney might be just whats needed at this point in time... I really could not care less that he is a Mormon I don't think it will be an issue as far as him being president goes... I could support Cain as a VP but he has made a few gaffs that tell me he is not ready to take on the entire ball of wax... Cain may have had a shot in the general elections if he were not running against another black man and was better versed on world issues... Our sitting president also being black will have the freedom to call him every Uncle Tom and house schvartza under the sun and the vast majority of democraps will agree with him...He will have the freedom to be quite relentless in his attacks against Cain... The fact that Cain is weak on foreign affairs is a very big problem in todays world.
I don't like Romney or Cain. I do care about the Mormon issue because it's a big problem for me if that crazy cult gets more popular due to having a Mormon president, plus I think someone has to be at least a little bit loony to follow it. However I agree that Cain simply seems to not be ready to run for President.
One thing that people haven't brought up is that it's very possible if not probable that Cain has some serious skeletons in his closet which haven't come out yet. Coming from the community he does it wouldn't surprise me at all if there wasn't some horrific October surprise next year about him. That and his absolutely shameful lack of knowledge on foreign issues will really doom him I think to lose, plus what you mentioned about Obama being completely free to attack him as an uncle Tom.
Romney I think has a chance of winning, but I don't like that he's almost as liberal as Obama and seemed to be in support of government health care.
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I don't like Romney or Cain. I do care about the Mormon issue because it's a big problem for me if that crazy cult gets more popular due to having a Mormon president, plus I think someone has to be at least a little bit loony to follow it. However I agree that Cain simply seems to not be ready to run for President.
One thing that people haven't brought up is that it's very possible if not probable that Cain has some serious skeletons in his closet which haven't come out yet. Coming from the community he does it wouldn't surprise me at all if there wasn't some horrific October surprise next year about him. That and his absolutely shameful lack of knowledge on foreign issues will really doom him I think to lose, plus what you mentioned about Obama being completely free to attack him as an uncle Tom.
Romney I think has a chance of winning, but I don't like that he's almost as liberal as Obama and seemed to be in support of government health care.
The way I see things with Romney and I could be wrong is that to some extent he was representing the wishes of his electorate when he was governor... Politics being what they are up in Massachusetts Romney could still have been considered as some what of a conservative by that bunch... He in all actuality might not be as liberal in a different setting under different mandates.
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Mormons don't take a position on Israel either way, officially. They consider Native Americans to be apostate Jews that were cursed with dark skin and sent to the New World. No Mormons that I have personally spoken to have any particular feelings on real Jews (besides that they want to convert them and everyone else to Mormonism).
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They're total kooks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3BqLZ8UoZk
WOW that's some crazy GI JOE drek. Talk about nutcases. Jesus was an alien, we get to have multiple wives, we're all equivalent to Gods and the Indians are lost Israelites? X_X
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Yep they believe all that stuff plus don't forget their crazy idea of racial supremacism which they only very recently tried to soften somewhat.
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Rubystars stated:
I have trouble trusting a kook who thinks he's going to become a G-d of his own planet. It makes me wonder why he would want to be president at all, honestly.
and also stated:
Wouldn't it be important to know that the future president of the USA might see Jews in a completely different way than previous presidents would and might therefore see Israel in a completely different way?
I think it might be against the rules of this forum to point out equally wierd and ridiculous theological views of Rick Perry, which JTF has endorsed as the Lesser of Evils Candidate, who has a chance to win.
I would also like to point out that Robert Jeffress who introduced Texas Gov. Rick Perry at the Values Voter Summit is not only against Mormons but also against Jews. http://articles.latimes.com/2011/oct/11/opinion/la-oe-goldberg-jeffress-20111011 (http://articles.latimes.com/2011/oct/11/opinion/la-oe-goldberg-jeffress-20111011)
That Pastor also said on another occasion, that Jews were going to Hell for not believing in the man that Jews view as a Pagan Deity.
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Rubystars stated:
and also stated:
I think it might be against the rules of this forum to point out equally wierd and ridiculous theological views of Rick Perry, which JTF has endorsed as the Lesser of Evils Candidate, who has a chance to win.
I would also like to point out that Robert Jeffress who introduced Texas Gov. Rick Perry at the Values Voter Summit is not only against Mormons but also against Jews. http://articles.latimes.com/2011/oct/11/opinion/la-oe-goldberg-jeffress-20111011 (http://articles.latimes.com/2011/oct/11/opinion/la-oe-goldberg-jeffress-20111011)
That Pastor also said on another occasion, that Jews were going to Hell for not believing in the man that Jews view as a Pagan Deity.
Have you listened to any Ask JTFs? Chaim TEMPORARILY endorsed Rick Perry and is now completely disgusted with him. He does not know who to support now and is leaning towards Herman Cain.
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Have you listened to any Ask JTFs? Chaim TEMPORARILY endorsed Rick Perry and is now completely disgusted with him. He does not know who to support now and is leaning towards Herman Cain.
The reality is that whomever is against Obama, that's who we will likely endorse even if it means holding our noses. Me, personally, I'm looking ahead and observing these debates and who can defend themselves well and be an axxhole about it. Romney wins first prize. Newt wins second prize. I think either one of them can singlehandedly destroy Obama in a biased debate. I think everybody else, including Cain, will freeze like a deer in the head lights with gotchya questions.
So me, personally, at this time, will be endorsing Romney..only because he will have the highest probability of winning over independents and defeating Obama. Newt has a dark past that I'm sure he'll try to defend if exposed, but has more going against him than Romney.
And certainly, if a more conservative and braver conservative wins the GOP nomination, I will be happy to endorse that person.
So as terrible as Romney might be..gonna have to pinch my nose to not smell the stench.
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As weird as Mormon faith may seem, I don't think Mormon people deserve to be despised. As briann pointed out, there are some nice people among Mormons. Righteous people exist in every religion. In my opinion (and I believe most people here would agree) the only two religions that have no right to exist on this planet are Islam and paganism.
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As weird as Mormon faith may seem, I don't think Mormon people deserve to be despised. As briann pointed out, there are some nice people among Mormons. Righteous people exist in every religion. In my opinion (and I believe most people here would agree) the only two religions that have no right to exist on this planet are Islam and paganism.
I don't despise them as individuals but I certainly disapprove of their 'church' and consider its teachings to be kooky and weird. Also I resent the fact they try to claim they're Christian when their basic doctrines are in stark contradiction to Christianity and they don't consider any Christians to be going to heaven, just Mormons. While they believe that all Christians are going to hell they try to leech off the established respectability of Christianity by trying to label themselves as such. I think this is to avoid being seen as a cult. They'd rather be seen as an odd denomination than a completely separate cult.
I also think it's extremely arrogant to think that they can work their way to becoming a god of their own planet.
Just to serve God is a great honor enough.
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You must not have read what it is which I hate about the mormon religion. I also clearly stated that I do not hate individual mormons, but i hate what their church does.
Im sure you have good intentions but you should try to understand what I wrote...
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As weird as Mormon faith may seem, I don't think Mormon people deserve to be despised. As briann pointed out, there are some nice people among Mormons. Righteous people exist in every religion. In my opinion (and I believe most people here would agree) the only two religions that have no right to exist on this planet are Islam and paganism.
id probably switch that to islam and scientology.
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id probably switch that to islam and scientology.
Scientology is worse than Mormonism for sure but I don't think either of them or Islam should exist.
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Scientology is worse than Mormonism for sure but I don't think either of them or Islam should exist.
Agreed about Islam. Not sure about the other two.
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Mormon people got no reason to live
They got straw hair
Squinty eyes
They walk around
Tellin moron lies
They got snub noses
And sharp canines
They wear secrete pants
On top their nasty little d!##$
Well, I don't want no Mormon people
`Round here
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Agreed about Islam. Not sure about the other two.
Scientology is a money making scheme and not even a real religion at all and has abused and killed people. Mormonism is a cultish, kooky belief system that cuts people off from their families and fills their minds with delusions of grandeur and has also been responsible for some pretty bad things, especially during its founding.
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If Mormons really believe they will ascend and control a planet and populate it by having tons of sex, then they are pretty much on par with scientologists.
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If Mormons really believe they will ascend and control a planet and populate it by having tons of sex, then they are pretty much on par with scientologists.
True
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Scientology is a money making scheme and not even a real religion at all and has abused and killed people. Mormonism is a cultish, kooky belief system that cuts people off from their families and fills their minds with delusions of grandeur and has also been responsible for some pretty bad things, especially during its founding.
Thanks for reminding me.
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Mormonism is a false religion, I don't know if some of them really understand that there is only one way to the Father and that is through the Son Jesus Christ. People are waking up to the fact that Romney is not a genuine Conservative or Christian.. Beck has done alot of studying and reforming, especially since he is involved with Christians United For Israel.... Rick Perry should stop Illegals and like he says, the government should enforce the border laws... Come to this country legally, not stealing in under the cover of night, This is a National Security Issue as well! If Perry will clear this issue up, he may start to climb again in the polls..
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Mormonism is a false religion, I don't know if some of them really understand that there is only one way to the Father and that is through the Son Jesus Christ. People are waking up to the fact that Romney is not a genuine Conservative or Christian.. Beck has done alot of studying and reforming, especially since he is involved with Christians United For Israel.... Rick Perry should stop Illegals and like he says, the government should enforce the border laws... Come to this country legally, not stealing in under the cover of night, This is a National Security Issue as well! If Perry will clear this issue up, he may start to climb again in the polls..
Debbie Mormons don't even believe in the same Jesus as Christians do at all. Like Muslims, they believe in some guy called Jesus but it's a completely different being.
I wish Rick Perry was better on the illegal issue.