JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: IsraeliGovtAreKapos on November 13, 2011, 09:28:29 PM
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I uploaded the Arab simulation of Baruch's massacre of 29 Arabs to drive the Arabs crazy... please comment, Like and subscribe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw4cPpo8uqM
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Wow, that is awesome! How do we make stuff like that?
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I am not sure that promoting Baruch Goldstein's shooting in a mosque will make us popular. Whether you like it or not, the fact is that a vast majority of Israelis disapprove of this action. I understand that our mission is not to disseminate a message suited to the Erev Rav as the other political movements in Israel do and that we must, on the contrary, change mentalities. But we can do it in a more effective manner by focusing on less controversial facts and figures. The list of activitists and leaders we must associate ourselves with is clear : Rabbi Kahane, Rabbi Kahane and Rabbi Kahane... There's nothing that Rabbi Kahane ever did in his life that can be used by our ennemies as a pretext for demonizing us. Of course, they may try but in the end they can only fail. Whereas it will be much easier for them to demonize this movement if we glorify Baruch Goldstein's shooting in a mosque. I don't have to explain the kind of accusations they will resort to, it's fairly obvious, and, with the mindset currently prevailing in Israel, these accusations will win over the Israeli public and we will fail to create a mass movement.
It's like promoting the burning of Israeli flags : I seriously doubt that it's going to help this movement because it's highly unpopular, including among hard core nationalists.
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בס''ד
JTF in the United States and Hayamin Haamiti in Israel are both law-abiding organizations. Our aim is to awaken the Jews of Israel so that they will replace by lawful means the Erev Rav traitors that rule over the Jewish homeland.
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I am not sure that promoting Baruch Goldstein's shooting in a mosque will make us popular. Whether you like it or not, the fact is that a vast majority of Israelis disapprove of this action. I understand that our mission is not to disseminate a message suited to the Erev Rav as the other political movements in Israel do and that we must, on the contrary, change mentalities. But we can do it in a more effective manner by focusing on less controversial facts and figures. The list of activitists and leaders we must associate ourselves is clear : Rabbi Kahane, Rabbi Kahane and Rabbi Kahane... There's nothing that Rabbi Kahane ever did in his life that can be used by our ennemies as a pretext for demonizing us. Of course, they may try but in the end they can only fail. Whereas it will be much easier for them to demonize this movement if we glorify Baruch Goldstein's shooting in a mosque. I don't have to explain the kind of accusations they will resort to, it's fairly obvious, and, with the mindset currently prevailing in Israel, these accusations will win over the Israeli public and we will fail to create a mass movement.
It's like promoting the burning of Israeli flags : I seriously doubt that it's going to help this movement because it's highly unpopular, including among hard core nationalists.
בס''ד
This movement does not in any way support the burning of Israeli flags. The resurrection of Jewish statehood 63 years ago was a holy and miraculous event. While the Israeli government and the Erev Rav establishment are traitors whom we oppose and seek to replace, the concept of Jewish sovereignty over the Land of Israel is sacred.
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בס''ד
This movement does not in any way support the burning of Israeli flags.
I know it doesn't. And, as far as I'm concerned, I immediately expressed my opposition to a post that promoted this (and got viciously insulted for that by the poster).
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I know it doesn't. And, as far as I'm concerned, I immediately expressed my opposition to a post that promoted this (and got viciously insulted for that by the poster).
I'm not surprised.In my opinion if a person objects to the IDF policies in YeSha you can still join the Army or MaGav and refuse to comply with the orders but you will do time,big deal
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I'm not surprised.In my opinion if a person objects to the IDF policies in YeSha you can still join the Army or MaGav and refuse to comply with the orders but you will do time,big deal
Big deal? Who would want to do time especially for something they could have avoided in the first place?
Anyway Baruch Goldstein is a hero and a fallen soldier. We shouldn't leave a fallen soldier behind no matter how unpopular his actions might be. He was/is a great hero and saint who saved many Jews by his actions. We don't need to run away from our glorious hero's in order to feel popular.
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Big deal? Who would want to do time especially for something they could have avoided in the first place?
Anyway Baruch Goldstein is a hero and a fallen soldier. We shouldn't leave a fallen soldier behind no matter how unpopular his actions might be. He was/is a great hero and saint who saved many Jews by his actions. We don't need to run away from our glorious hero's in order to feel popular.
So you don't care about JTF/ HaYamin Haamiti becoming a mass movement ? You don't get it : praising what Baruch Goldstein did could cause us trouble on incitement charges. Besides, not everyone shares your opinion about him in this organization.
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So you don't care about JTF/ HaYamin Haamiti becoming a mass movement ? You don't get it : praising what Baruch Goldstein did could cause us trouble on incitement charges. Besides, not everyone shares your opinion about him in this organization.
Where did I say I don't care? Anyway your mentality is the slippery slop that got all of Israel's "right-wing" into what they are now. COMPROMISE. The Likud, heck even labor was once for Israel getting more land getting stronger. What happened? They compromised here, compromised there. Starting looking and being concerned more and more about what OTHERS think of them. Soo now we see the obsession of their actions. Now if America winks the wrong way Israel must give up Judea Samaria and Jerusalem, because that is the more "popular" position. Anyway I'm not going to comply for the "popular" position, but stand for the truth. And whats the truth about Dr. Baruch Goldstein ZTKL HYD was that he was a great saint, and all the praises be to him even if this is currently unpopular.
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Also look at what Rav Kahane ZTKL HYD stood for and did. He stood for the truth. Uncompromisingly. He said it like it is. That is what we need. The seal of the Holy 1 is EMET (Truth).
In contrast look at all those deformers. Look at what their "compromises" acomplished for the Jewish people- A Spiritual Holocaust taking place right now! Look at their "compromises" with homo "marriages" or Jews marrying shiksas and all types of disasters. That is what the "compromisers" stand for and leads to. Total destruction and a breach in the truth and breach in Halacha.
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Also look at what Rav Kahane ZTKL HYD stood for and did. He stood for the truth. Uncompromisingly. He said it like it is. That is what we need. The seal of the Holy 1 is EMET (Truth).
In contrast look at all those deformers. Look at what their "compromises" acomplished for the Jewish people- A Spiritual Holocaust taking place right now! Look at their "compromises" with homo "marriages" or Jews marrying shiksas and all types of disasters. That is what the "compromisers" stand for and leads to. Total destruction and a breach in the truth and breach in Halacha.
But our Rebbe did not suggest that a lone man go and shoot up a bunch of arabs in a mosque.... And I understand that we should distance ourselves from this act because it did not result in anything but more trouble for the religious right. While we may agree, or understand, the sentiment which caused Dr Goldstein to act like this we should also remember that these acts do little to help our cause.
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The world is leftist secular with convoluted logics. When muslamic terrorists kill hundreds in a single run, they are understood as the popular muslamic peoples democratic revolutionaries for the liberation.
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http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,51824.0.html
(Yaakov Mendal these are your own words!) Anyway anyone have the song available would love to hear it.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRzoGGkeZOg&feature=player_embedded#!
Above 2 made by simple search here on the forum, and the bottom is material I read earlier about this incident.
http://www.angelfire.com/anime5/danilin/PodeUmatzil.htm
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But our Rebbe did not suggest that a lone man go and shoot up a bunch of arabs in a mosque.... And I understand that we should distance ourselves from this act because it did not result in anything but more trouble for the religious right. While we may agree, or understand, the sentiment which caused Dr Goldstein to act like this we should also remember that these acts do little to help our cause.
How would you know that? Again it depends on the context. Anyway I remember watching a video on youtube where Rav Kahane ZTL HYD praises those Jews who put bombs unto Arabs. He was saying and what do you think those bombs did! Maybe ill find it, or you make a search.
How do you know what it did or didn't do? Perhaps it saved many Jewish lives. And anyway it was a great Kiddush Hash-m.
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Where did I say I don't care? Anyway your mentality is the slippery slop that got all of Israel's "right-wing" into what they are now. COMPROMISE. The Likud, heck even labor was once for Israel getting more land getting stronger. What happened? They compromised here, compromised there. Starting looking and being concerned more and more about what OTHERS think of them. Soo now we see the obsession of their actions. Now if America winks the wrong way Israel must give up Judea Samaria and Jerusalem, because that is the more "popular" position. Anyway I'm not going to comply for the "popular" position, but stand for the truth. And whats the truth about Dr. Baruch Goldstein ZTKL HYD was that he was a great saint, and all the praises be to him even if this is currently unpopular.
I am completely opposed to Israel caving in to foreign pressure.
I am completely against surrendering Judea and Samaria.
So stop lecturing me about things I never said or thought.
I'll tell you one thing about the difference in "mentality" between you and me : you believe you know the truth about everything and that the others are always wrong, whereas I am more humble than you. I'll let you think about which of these two mindsets is more Jewish than the other.
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I have no problem admitting that what he did was very noble and commendable. The only problem I have is that I do not suggest these kinds of actions for the future. Anything which should be done to the enemy should be coordinated and sustained. The goal of Rabbi Kahane to relocate them either peacefully, or forcefully, is the goal which I still suggest...
I also remember that there is some disagreement as to whether the mosque was about to carry out terrorist activity. I have read different accounts of what happened. In the end I see that it has turned out bad for the religious zionists as a result of some of the zealous acts which have occurred. Of course in the end only Hashem knows what the ultimate end will be.
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I am completely opposed to Israel caving in to foreign pressure.
I am completely against surrendering Judea and Samaria.
So stop lecturing me about things I never said or thought.
I'll tell you one thing about the difference in "mentality" between you and me : you believe you know the truth about everything and that the others are always wrong, whereas I am more humble than you. I'll let you think about which of these two mindsets is more Jewish than the other.
1) Soo. What makes you better then those who are for surrender of Jewish lands? Perhaps in a couple of years or a generation you will come to the same conclusions as them as well because after all, no one knows the truth?
2) Yes I do. I know the Torah is the Truth. (and never did I claim to know everything) If their are those who think otherwise and even if they are the majority. TOUGH.
3) Which is more Jewish? Well by Jewish what do you mean? By the "Jewish" mindset of today? Of Hollywood, of the soo called Israeli universities, of what?
The Jewish mindset, the REAL Jewish mindset is to stand for the truth. All the nations of the world didn't accept the TORAH, only 1. The Jewish nation. They possessed the REAL JEWISH mindset and had "Holy boldness". And even though the majority of the world rejected G-D's Torah (instruction) their was 1 nation- the Jewish nation that accepted and stood for the Truth (as a nation). Now you tell me what is more "Jewish" ?
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1) Soo. What makes you better then those who are for surrender of Jewish lands? Perhaps in a couple of years or a generation you will come to the same conclusions as them as well because after all, no one knows the truth?
2) Yes I do. I know the Torah is the Truth. (and never did I claim to know everything) If their are those who think otherwise and even if they are the majority. TOUGH.
3) Which is more Jewish? Well by Jewish what do you mean? By the "Jewish" mindset of today? Of Hollywood, of the soo called Israeli universities, of what?
The Jewish mindset, the REAL Jewish mindset is to stand for the truth. All the nations of the world didn't accept the TORAH, only 1. The Jewish nation. They possessed the REAL JEWISH mindset and had "Holy boldness". And even though the majority of the world rejected G-D's Torah (instruction) their was 1 nation- the Jewish nation that accepted and stood for the Truth (as a nation). Now you tell me what is more "Jewish" ?
I can't debate with someone who won't listen. Keep ranting if that makes you feel better, I'm done with you.
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I can't debate with someone who won't listen. Keep ranting if that makes you feel better, I'm done with you.
Thanks for that line. Perhaps if their is a time where I can't prove my point with logic and facts, ill use it as well.
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I'm not surprised.In my opinion if a person objects to the IDF policies in YeSha you can still join the Army or MaGav and refuse to comply with the orders but you will do time,big deal
You under-estimate the poser of peer pressure and indoctrination. Someone who is strong enough mentally should do what you say. I know people who joined the army as pro-transfer right wing Jews and ended up participating, supporting, and justifying the expulsion from Gush Katif.
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I don't support the action of Baruch Goldstein purely for practical reasons. Every Arab Muslim Nazi he killed is one less wicked amelikite infesting the holly Jewish site of Mearat Hamachpela. Every Arab Muslim Nazi who infests the holy Jewish site deserves to die.
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Big deal? Who would want to do time especially for something they could have avoided in the first place?
Anyway Baruch Goldstein is a hero and a fallen soldier. We shouldn't leave a fallen soldier behind no matter how unpopular his actions might be. He was/is a great hero and saint who saved many Jews by his actions. We don't need to run away from our glorious hero's in order to feel popular.
It's one thing when you someone like Baruch Goldstein who knew something was going to happen and went to the authorities to warn them. When they did nothing, then he did the right thing to save lives by doing what he did.
However, to "randomly" just go out and do that...i wouldn't recommend if you want to get a point across and win hearts over. It's not worth going to jail to do.
If on the other hand, it is a similar situation when a Jew hears a plan of his enemies to massacre other Jews and he the authorities sit back and do nothing, when it is the matter of saving life, i support actions like that.
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So you don't care about JTF/ HaYamin Haamiti becoming a mass movement ? You don't get it : praising what Baruch Goldstein did could cause us trouble on incitement charges. Besides, not everyone shares your opinion about him in this organization.
Yaacov, when it comes down to Jewish survival, there is NO COMPROMISE. Baruch Goldstein didn't go and randomly kill Muslims praying. He killed would be murderers who planned a massacre of Jews. Not sure if you realize that or not.
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I have no problem admitting that what he did was very noble and commendable. The only problem I have is that I do not suggest these kinds of actions for the future. Anything which should be done to the enemy should be coordinated and sustained. The goal of Rabbi Kahane to relocate them either peacefully, or forcefully, is the goal which I still suggest...
I also remember that there is some disagreement as to whether the mosque was about to carry out terrorist activity. I have read different accounts of what happened. In the end I see that it has turned out bad for the religious zionists as a result of some of the zealous acts which have occurred. Of course in the end only Hashem knows what the ultimate end will be.
When it comes down to Jewish survival, there should be NO COMPROMISE. if what barch goldstein did was to save Jewish lives because of the plan that was being hashed out by the very people planning on killing Jews, then he did the right thing and screw everybody else who would have looked at religious zionists as terrible people. When it comes down to saving Jewish lives, there is no compromise.
The other thing that I hope will take place one day is that Israel carry out true justice according to the Torah. That means, we should do to our enemies what they want to do to us.
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I can't debate with someone who won't listen. Keep ranting if that makes you feel better, I'm done with you.
Yaacov, you have to own up to your point of view..don't just give up here. Maybe clarify your point of view better...find a middle ground. Tag isn't attacking you.
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Also about "looking bad" remember that the regime and internationals will use everything and anything against Torah Jews. Today they are even calling the (stupid-horrific) incident of Jews swapping 1,000+ terrorists for 1 soldier as a show of Israel's "racist" views. Or the fact that Jews don't rape Arab women because of "Israeli racism".
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I uploaded the Arab simulation of Baruch's massacre of 29 Arabs to drive the Arabs crazy... please comment, Like and subscribe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw4cPpo8uqM
Why would that drive Arabs crazy?
1) It is their propoganda, they make Goldstein look like a maniac slaughtering peaceful Arabs doing nothing evil.
2) You are assuming that Arabs go to JTF and watch these videos. I doubt if that is true, but even if it was, they would be happy to see their propoganda here.
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Yaacov, when it comes down to Jewish survival, there is NO COMPROMISE. Baruch Goldstein didn't go and randomly kill Muslims praying. He killed would be murderers who planned a massacre of Jews. Not sure if you realize that or not.
There are conflicting versions of this story. I don't know the truth for sure, nor can you. If what happened is what you describe, then I agree, Baruch Goldstein is a hero who sacrificed himself to save Jewish lives. Whatever really happened that day, I know enough about the life of Baruch Goldstein to say that he was a very good man. That is why I tend to believe your version because I find it hard to believe that he might have gone mad on an impulse. And I certainly have no compassion for Muslims who wish our destruction. But I take the Torah's prohibition of murder very seriously and I do not interpret it as limited to the murder of Jews, so I am not in favour of indiscriminate killing as a general rule.
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Yaacov, you have to own up to your point of view..don't just give up here. Maybe clarify your point of view better...find a middle ground. Tag isn't attacking you.
I'm sorry, I won't debate with someone who accuses me of things that I never said or thought.
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Thanks for that line. Perhaps if their is a time where I can't prove my point with logic and facts, ill use it as well.
Then, make sure you can also spell English correctly, it will look even better.
Just who do you think you are ?
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There are conflicting versions of this story. I don't know the truth for sure, nor can you. If what happened is what you describe, then I agree, Baruch Goldstein is a hero who sacrificed himself to save Jewish lives. Whatever really happened that day, I know enough about the life of Baruch Goldstein to say that he was a very good man. That is why I tend to believe your version because I find it hard to believe that he might have gone mad on an impulse. And I certainly have no compassion for Muslims who wish our destruction. But I take the Torah's prohibition of murder very seriously and I do not interpret it as limited to the murder of Jews, so I am not in favour of indiscriminate killing as a general rule.
Killing arab muslim nazi men who unanimously support the extermination of the Jews and who occupy and deliberately defile the second most holly place to Judaism doesn't qualify as indiscriminate killing. Every single one of Baruch Goldstein victims deserved what was coming for him. I think Goldstein conducted selected killing. He could easily massacre a lot more Arabs including women and children if he wished to.
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Every single one of Baruch Goldstein victims deserved what was coming for him.
When you open fire on individuals you don't know and who are not threatening you, how do you know for sure that they all deserve to die ? Who are you to decide to take their lives without knowing if they are guilty ? What kind of justice is this ? Did Baruch Goldstein have proof that every single one of the people he shot was planning to murder Jews ?
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When you open fire on individuals you don't know and who are not threatening you, how do you know for sure that they all deserve to die ? Who are you to decide to take their lives without knowing if they are guilty ? What kind of justice is this ? Did Baruch Goldstein have proof that every single one of the people he shot was planning to murder Jews ?
That is the problem with indiscriminate killing. On the other hand, I do support the firebombinb of Dresden and the atomic bomb being dropped on Hiroshima so I don't oppose indiscriminate killing 100%. In the case of Jews and Arabs we have enough power that we should not need to do this. I think Israeli special forces could stay busy for a long time killing responsible Arabs. If that does not stop terrorism then we could turn to indiscriminate killing. In Goldstein's case he could have understandably assumed that the Israselis were not taking out the Arabs responsilbe for terror so that he needed to step in and kill without discrimination.
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There are conflicting versions of this story. I don't know the truth for sure, nor can you. If what happened is what you describe, then I agree, Baruch Goldstein is a hero who sacrificed himself to save Jewish lives. Whatever really happened that day, I know enough about the life of Baruch Goldstein to say that he was a very good man. That is why I tend to believe your version because I find it hard to believe that he might have gone mad on an impulse. And I certainly have no compassion for Muslims who wish our destruction. But I take the Torah's prohibition of murder very seriously and I do not interpret it as limited to the murder of Jews, so I am not in favour of indiscriminate killing as a general rule.
So we agree. I think Tag was trying to convince you of the first point you agree with about Jewish lives in danger and having to take the law into your hands to save lives.
But the two versions of the story with Baruch Goldstein is irrelevant in this discussion. You agree that if Jewish lives are in danger and law enforcement will do nothing to protect those Jews, then it is necessary to protect Jewish lives in the way that Baruch Goldstein did.
You are also against just having some random indiscriminate killings. I feel that it is counter productive to do something like that. However I feel that our enemies deserve the very things they wish to do on us and we shouldn't be merciful to them. I'll leave it at that.
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I am not sure that promoting Baruch Goldstein's shooting in a mosque will make us popular. Whether you like it or not, the fact is that a vast majority of Israelis disapprove of this action. I understand that our mission is not to disseminate a message suited to the Erev Rav as the other political movements in Israel do and that we must, on the contrary, change mentalities. But we can do it in a more effective manner by focusing on less controversial facts and figures. The list of activitists and leaders we must associate ourselves with is clear : Rabbi Kahane, Rabbi Kahane and Rabbi Kahane... There's nothing that Rabbi Kahane ever did in his life that can be used by our ennemies as a pretext for demonizing us. Of course, they may try but in the end they can only fail. Whereas it will be much easier for them to demonize this movement if we glorify Baruch Goldstein's shooting in a mosque. I don't have to explain the kind of accusations they will resort to, it's fairly obvious, and, with the mindset currently prevailing in Israel, these accusations will win over the Israeli public and we will fail to create a mass movement.
It's like promoting the burning of Israeli flags : I seriously doubt that it's going to help this movement because it's highly unpopular, including among hard core nationalists.
Actually, hatred of Arabs is pretty popular in Israel. But let's pretend it wasn't. Most of our principles are not popular. None of them can make us popular. So what are you suggesting? to sit idly and let Jews rot in their insanity or have some balls and try to convince them to change, to save them?
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Yaacov, you have to own up to your point of view..don't just give up here. Maybe clarify your point of view better...find a middle ground. Tag isn't attacking you.
This is not a "point of view". He lacks the most basic of all human instincts - the will to survive. It must never be given legitimacy.
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When you open fire on individuals you don't know and who are not threatening you, how do you know for sure that they all deserve to die ? Who are you to decide to take their lives without knowing if they are guilty ? What kind of justice is this ? Did Baruch Goldstein have proof that every single one of the people he shot was planning to murder Jews ?
In a war one doesn't need "proof" that each and every single individual is personally responsible. In this case what right does any soldier have in shooting another soldier or anyone else part of the enemy if they are not 100% convinced that that other soldier is a true threat?
The proof is on them to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they aren't the enemy.
http://machonshilo.org/en/images/stories/files/Ethics%20of%20War-Torah%20Perspective.mp3
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Why would that drive Arabs crazy?
1) It is their propoganda, they make Goldstein look like a maniac slaughtering peaceful Arabs doing nothing evil.
2) You are assuming that Arabs go to JTF and watch these videos. I doubt if that is true, but even if it was, they would be happy to see their propoganda here.
How will seeing 29 Arabs slaughtered by one Jew, one ultimate humiliation, make them happy?
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Jewish Ethics and War: Urban Warfare and Civilians
It has been suggested that Israel must act in accordance with international practices, because we are incapable at this time of formulating Halakhic guidelines due to a lack of historical continuity in the process of Halakhic decision making regarding such issues. This position views Halakha as frozen and Rabbanim as helpless. Also: knowing the difference between good and evil. Are all cultures equally legitimate and acceptable?
Download the Shiur
http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/43-philosophy/283-jewish-ethics-and-war-urban-warfare-and-civilians
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So we agree. I think Tag was trying to convince you of the first point you agree with about Jewish lives in danger and having to take the law into your hands to save lives.
But the two versions of the story with Baruch Goldstein is irrelevant in this discussion. You agree that if Jewish lives are in danger and law enforcement will do nothing to protect those Jews, then it is necessary to protect Jewish lives in the way that Baruch Goldstein did.
You are also against just having some random indiscriminate killings. I feel that it is counter productive to do something like that. However I feel that our enemies deserve the very things they wish to do on us and we shouldn't be merciful to them. I'll leave it at that.
Do you have moral problems with slaughtering an Arab just like that?
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Do you have moral problems with slaughtering an Arab just like that?
I think he has tactical problems. Which are legit.
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In a war one doesn't need "proof" that each and every single individual is personally responsible. In this case what right does any soldier have in shooting another soldier or anyone else part of the enemy if they are not 100% convinced that that other soldier is a true threat?
The proof is on them to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they aren't the enemy.
http://machonshilo.org/en/images/stories/files/Ethics%20of%20War-Torah%20Perspective.mp3
So by this logic you mean to say that it should be ok to go into a random arab's home and kill everyone inside? Just saying....
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So by this logic you mean to say that it should be ok to go into a random arab's home and kill everyone inside? Just saying....
I'm not sure what I can say legally, the smart will understand.
But check the wars with the Caanites of Joshua. The Arabs today have the status of Caanites and what must be in the equation is the long term survival of Israel and the Jewish people. Soo whatever tactics are appropriate they need to be used and applied, everything in its proper time and context.
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Do you have moral problems with slaughtering an Arab just like that?
I'll put it to you this way. I have much more at stake with my life and my family to put it all out there just to go and shoot up a random group of Arabs. It's not smart nor is it a good strategy in my opinion. I can do so much more for our people by doing things legally. That's my opinion. But if I knew something were to happen physically to my people and I had to take action immediately, and the authorities weren't taking me seriously, I would take action to save my people. Taking action can mean anything as long as I'm effective in saving my people.
And if some Jew were to go out there and randomly kill some Arabs, I wouldn't condone that behavior. However, if he knew something were to happen to our people and he did something about it after the authorities ignored him, he would have my blessing to do what he needs to do to protect our people. Do you understand what I'm saying?
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When you open fire on individuals you don't know and who are not threatening you, how do you know for sure that they all deserve to die ? Who are you to decide to take their lives without knowing if they are guilty ? What kind of justice is this ? Did Baruch Goldstein have proof that every single one of the people he shot was planning to murder Jews ?
The proof is that they chose to participate in the Islamic desecration of the holly Jewish site. Do you think any one of these people thought about giving up the site so it would return to its rightful owner ? Do you think any one of them prayed for truthful peace and justice even as he kneeled to pray to allah on a Jewish holly site which was violently converted into an Islamic mosque ?
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In a war one doesn't need "proof" that each and every single individual is personally responsible. In this case what right does any soldier have in shooting another soldier or anyone else part of the enemy if they are not 100% convinced that that other soldier is a true threat?
The proof is on them to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they aren't the enemy.
http://machonshilo.org/en/images/stories/files/Ethics%20of%20War-Torah%20Perspective.mp3
I don't think your comparison is valid. In a war, every armed soldier is a threat. Unarmed civilians praying in a mosque cannot be assumed to be an immediate threat justifying lethal force.
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I'm not sure what I can say legally, the smart will understand.
But check the wars with the Caanites of Joshua. The Arabs today have the status of Caanites and what must be in the equation is the long term survival of Israel and the Jewish people. Soo whatever tactics are appropriate they need to be used and applied, everything in its proper time and context.
And I will says again and again...our enemies..the enemies of the Jewish people deserve the very thing they wish to do to us. Do you think I would shed a tear for my enemy's people if a mob of Jews or gentiles did something to our enemies?
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How will seeing 29 Arabs slaughtered by one Jew, one ultimate humiliation, make them happy?
They must not mind it since they made the video.
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They must not mind it since they made the video.
Better to start with a threat than to replay the past.. Muslim Nazis are cowards since they hide behind women and children.
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Actually, hatred of Arabs is pretty popular in Israel. But let's pretend it wasn't. Most of our principles are not popular. None of them can make us popular. So what are you suggesting? to sit idly and let Jews rot in their insanity or have some balls and try to convince them to change, to save them?
To demonstrate Jewish pride.
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And I will says again and again...our enemies..the enemies of the Jewish people deserve the very thing they wish to do to us. Do you think I would shed a tear for my enemy's people if a mob of Jews or gentiles did something to our enemies?
No, I wasn't implying anything, just answering your questions.
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The proof is that they chose to participate in the Islamic desecration of the holly Jewish site. Do you think any one of these people thought about giving up the site so it would return to its rightful owner ? Do you think any one of them prayed for truthful peace and justice even as he kneeled to pray to allah on a Jewish holly site which was violently converted into an Islamic mosque ?
Occupation of a place that does not belong to you should be punished by expulsion, not by death. That's what Rabbi Kahane wanted : to expel the Arabs from Israel, not to massacre them.
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No, I wasn't implying anything, just answering your questions.
And I think I have answered yours and Ron's questions.
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I don't think your comparison is valid. In a war, every armed soldier is a threat. Unarmed civilians praying in a mosque cannot be assumed to be an immediate threat justifying lethal force.
Who says a threat has to be immediate? In this case what if enemy soldiers were sleeping in tents or something and you got a chance to go inside. If you know you cant capture them would you not kill them? (Bomb, gun or anything else)? Would the fact that they are currently sleeping yett tomorrow morning will wake up and go to battle not a good enough reason since "currently" - (at this night while they are sleeping) they are not a threat, while in the morning they will be?
In a war their are no "innocent civilians" especially not arabs. Some make bombs and others make babies, but all in all they are supplying or making more and more threats. And their support tells it all.
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Occupation of a place that does not belong to you should be punished by expulsion, not by death. That's what Rabbi Kahane wanted : to expel the Arabs from Israel, not to massacre them.
Have you not read Rabbi Kahane's books? (now that we are mentioning him, tonight is the Yertzeit of Rabbi Kahane ZTKL HYD).
He clearly defines what needs to be done to enemies. In practical terms because of the weaklings transfer is proposed, but if all else fails ......
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Occupation of a place that does not belong to you should be punished by expulsion, not by death. That's what Rabbi Kahane wanted : to expel the Arabs from Israel, not to massacre them.
I don't think it's my place to deal punishment for anyone, that is for God to decide. However as far as I am concerned adult arab muslim nazi men who tress pass and defile the machpela don't have any rights. I don't support extermination of such people, but I also don't consider it a loss when anyone of them expires. They are evil doers and the world is a better place without them.
I can see many negative things in Goldstein action but none of them is due to remorse or sorrow for the slain Arab. I don't want us to become a society of vigilantes for one thing. And the consequences of the killings were sever constrictions of the Jewish presence in Hebron for another reason.
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בס''ד
1. I know this is an emotional issue. But we are all Jews (those who have responded to this thread are Jews). If we have differences of opinion, we should not take it personally. We are all brothers.
2. JTF is a law-abiding organization. We do not engage in nor encourage any illegal activity here or in Israel. I believe that we are more effective when we are law-abiding.
3. Now for some legal tips to those who admire Dr. Baruch Goldstein zt"l hy"d. Legally it is problematic to applaud Dr. Goldstein's action. However, it is perfectly legal to say, "We do not condemn what Dr. Goldstein did". No one can legally force you to condemn someone else's action.
4. Therefore that is my position on this issue: I do not condemn what Dr. Goldstein did. That was not a mosque. Mearat HaMachpelah is the second holiest place in the world after Har HaBayit. These Muslim Nazis were desecrating our holy place and praying for our destruction. Islam itself is ipso facto a religion of terror and genocide because that is what Mohammed ys"v commanded all Muslims to engage in. Dr. Goldstein was a captain in the IDF. His commanders told him to prepare for a huge massacre of Jews that the Muslim Nazis in Chevron were preparing to carry out. Dr. Goldstein acted to protect his fellow Jews including his wife and his four little children who lived in Kiryat Arba which was supposed to be part of the planned Islamic terrorist massacre.
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I don't think it's my place to deal punishment for anyone, that is for G-d to decide. However as far as I am concerned adult arab muslim nazi men who tress pass and defile the machpela don't have any rights. I don't support extermination of such people, but I also don't consider it a loss when anyone of them expires. They are evil doers and the world is a better place without them.
I can see many negative things in Goldstein action but none of them is due to remorse or sorrow for the slain Arab. I don't want us to become a society of vigilantes for one thing. And the consequences of the killings were sever constrictions of the Jewish presence in Hebron for another reason.
Then, we basically agree. Like I said before, I have no insane compassion for Muslims who hate us. The only one I feel sorry for in this event is Baruch Goldstein. All my heart goes for the Jews and only for the Jews.
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Now hope it resolves the basic dilemma by "We do not condemn".
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Who says a threat has to be immediate? In this case what if enemy soldiers were sleeping in tents or something and you got a chance to go inside. If you know you cant capture them would you not kill them? (Bomb, gun or anything else)? Would the fact that they are currently sleeping yett tomorrow morning will wake up and go to battle not a good enough reason since "currently" - (at this night while they are sleeping) they are not a threat, while in the morning they will be?
In a war their are no "innocent civilians" especially not arabs. Some make bombs and others make babies, but all in all they are supplying or making more and more threats. And their support tells it all.
What should be done to sleeping enemy soldiers should be the very thing they would have done to our soldiers.
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What should be done to sleeping enemy soldiers should be the very thing they would have done to our soldiers.
Exactly. That was my point in bringing the example of the "sleeping enemies", and someone not being an "immediate threat". We need to use logic and look out for the long-term survival of the Jewish nation.
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Exactly. That was my point in bringing the example of the "sleeping enemies", and someone not being an "immediate threat". We need to use logic and look out for the long-term survival of the Jewish nation.
the problem with Hamas and Fatah is that there are no soldiers. And if one can justify the concept of, "well that's too bad," my answer would be, "not so fast. Are you achieving an appropriate long term result?"
Think of it like this with cancer. When you kill cancer cells, you have to make sure to prevent it from recurring. So a long term strategy is appropriate to rid one's body from cancer. Also some treatments in the past worked better back then than it would work now. A different way will be needed to achieve the same if not better result. Think about it.
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the problem with Hamas and Fatah is that there are no soldiers. And if one can justify the concept of, "well that's too bad," my answer would be, "not so fast. Are you achieving an appropriate long term result?"
You know I am re (listening) the the above shiur I posted earlier here.
http://machonshilo.org/en/images/stories/files/Ethics%20of%20War-Torah%20Perspective.mp3
and to your answer, my answer is no, they ARE soldiers. A soldier is not just someone who has a uniform and a gun. Hamas and Fatah are soldiers of their ideologies. They are part of their society and act upon for their society and their religion. Not only are they part of their society they are also backed by the people of their society. Soo to claim as the muslims are that terrorist organizations are just acting for themselves is a joke and a lie. They (the population) has a moral duty to stop their terrorism. What do they do instead? Fully support them. These are their soldiers.
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Think of it like this with cancer. When you kill cancer cells, you have to make sure to prevent it from recurring. So a long term strategy is appropriate to rid one's body from cancer. Also some treatments in the past worked better back then than it would work now. A different way will be needed to achieve the same if not better result. Think about it.
Yes, transfer is a great solution. If all else fails what needs to be done needs to be done. Personally I wouldn't take someone snipping me or my comrades in a building lightly. At the moment I would be looking out for my survival and if need be to throw a bomb unto a building with a snipper, soo be it. (this is even by "international laws" as well) soo what is the problem?
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You know I am re (listening) the the above shiur I posted earlier here.
http://machonshilo.org/en/images/stories/files/Ethics%20of%20War-Torah%20Perspective.mp3
and to your answer, my answer is no, they ARE soldiers. A soldier is not just someone who has a uniform and a gun. Hamas and Fatah are soldiers of their ideologies. They are part of their society and act upon for their society and their religion. Not only are they part of their society they are also backed by the people of their society. Soo to claim as the muslims are that terrorist organizations are just acting for themselves is a joke and a lie. They (the population) has a moral duty to stop their terrorism. What do they do instead? Fully support them. These are their soldiers.
That's basically what I was saying. You can't identify so easily which men are the soldiers with Hamas and Fatah..and while that's too bad for them, individual vigilantes have to think long term what is the best strategy. A Jewish army however should do what Gd commands no maturer what works opinion is. Except there is no true Jewish army in Israel.
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Yes, transfer is a great solution. If all else fails what needs to be done needs to be done. Personally I wouldn't take someone snipping me or my comrades in a building lightly. At the moment I would be looking out for my survival and if need be to throw a bomb unto a building with a snipper, soo be it. (this is even by "international laws" as well) soo what is the problem?
In a battle you protect yourself and your comrades over the enemy "civilians" especially Israel's enemy civilians who are mostly not innocent by any means.
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In a battle you protect yourself and your comrades over the enemy "civilians" especially Israel's enemy civilians who are mostly not innocent by any means.
I could never understand during the early days of the 2nd Intifada, the Israelis would respond to a vicious, brutal, mass murder of civilians by bombing a factory that made suicide belts. Of course they would bomb it at night when the workers were not there. They destroyed the building but did no harm to the workers.
Now this is a case where people working at a plant that builds suicide belts are as far from innocent as any street walking hooker. They should have bombed at the busiest part of the day and killed as many workers as possible. Let the word get out that this is a hazzardous job. Let the workers start looking for alternative work immediately. Same with a camp where 5 year olds are learning to be suicide bombers. If 5 year olds get killed in the process let the word get out to parents not to send your little kids to Hamas, Nazi training camps.
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Yes, transfer is a great solution. If all else fails what needs to be done needs to be done. Personally I wouldn't take someone snipping me or my comrades in a building lightly. At the moment I would be looking out for my survival and if need be to throw a bomb unto a building with a snipper, soo be it. (this is even by "international laws" as well) soo what is the problem?
Transfer would have been very viable as a solution right after June 1967. The Arabs would have left with very little prodding, they were terrified of Jews. I have a friend (a liberal) who told me in 1968 he was hitch hiking around Gaza and thought nothing of it.
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Hey, I get it, Wink Wink.
I "Don't Condemn (TM)" Baruch Goldstein ZT"L.
Look, if JTF the organization cannot praise Goldstein because of legal obligations, fine. But myself as an individual who simply types messages on JTF's forum and has no association or position with the JTF organization, I think I am free to praise him as the tzaddik that he was, aren't I? Is it legal to state that he was a tzaddik?
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Transfer would have been very viable as a solution right after June 1967. The Arabs would have left with very little prodding, they were terrified of Jews. I have a friend (a liberal) who told me in 1968 he was hitch hiking around Gaza and thought nothing of it.
In some places arabs were fleeing in terror and Moshe Dayan got on loudspeaker and begged them please come back, please don't leave!
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Btw, is there a way we can construct graphics like this video?
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Btw, is there a way we can construct graphics like this video?
Probably... Look into 3-D software such as Blender...
http://www.blender.org/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHdQjAUMrFs
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Hey, I get it, Wink Wink.
I "Don't Condemn (TM)" Baruch Goldstein ZT"L.
Look, if JTF the organization cannot praise Goldstein because of legal obligations, fine. But myself as an individual who simply types messages on JTF's forum and has no association or position with the JTF organization, I think I am free to praise him as the tzaddik that he was, aren't I? Is it legal to state that he was a tzaddik?
I don't agree with what he did at the Machpela but I consider him to be a good man. Everyone can agree he lived an exemplary life until that point. Had he survived I would be in favor of him getting out of prison.
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Who says a threat has to be immediate? In this case what if enemy soldiers were sleeping in tents or something and you got a chance to go inside. If you know you cant capture them would you not kill them? (Bomb, gun or anything else)? Would the fact that they are currently sleeping yett tomorrow morning will wake up and go to battle not a good enough reason since "currently" - (at this night while they are sleeping) they are not a threat, while in the morning they will be?
Again, the comparison is not valid because the people Baruch Goldstein shot were not soldiers in a war. Many of them may have been Muslims who hate us but you don't kill someone just because he hates you. You have the right to kill someone in self-defence. What Baruch Goldstein did was not self-defence. Some may argue that it could be equated with a pre-emptive strike. But for a pre-emptive strike to be justified, there needs to be hard evidence that you are about to be attacked and that you won't be able to defend yourself properly if you don't strike first. I am not certain that these conditions were met in Baruch Goldstein's case.
In a war their are no "innocent civilians" especially not arabs. Some make bombs and others make babies, but all in all they are supplying or making more and more threats. And their support tells it all.
It's not that simple. I agree to a certain extent that there is no such thing as completely "innocent" civilians. But only to a certain extent. For example, under a certain age, it's difficult to say that a child is fully responsible. And a number of Arab civilians in Israel are neither monsters nor angels. Some of them, while they may resent Jewish presence, do not help terrorists and do not carry out violent acts against Jews. They should not be treated as soldiers in a war hard-bent on the extermination of Jews. They should be encouraged to leave with compensation. That's JTF/HaYamin HaAmiti's policy, if I'm not mistaken.
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I cannot approve of his actions, but he saved lives!
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You don't kill someone because he's a Nazi who wants all Jews put in microwaves?
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Occupation of a place that does not belong to you should be punished by expulsion, not by death.
If a burglar breaks into your house and start raping your wife (your one is not yours but you got the point), would you expel him or eat him?
Thieves must be killed, period. Especially invaders who turn our heart into a filthy Nazi Mosque.
That's what Rabbi Kahane wanted : to expel the Arabs from Israel, not to massacre them.
Rabbi Kahane didn't say what he (and any other Jew with minimal sanity) wanted to do to them them because it was illegal and because most Jews at that time would not accept that, so he was using any other method to get rid of the Arab subhumans.
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You don't kill someone because he's a Nazi who wants all Jews put in microwaves?
No. You can kill him if he tries to implement his "ideas", but as long as he has not touched a Jew's finger you don't have the right to kill him.
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If a burglar breaks into your house and start raping your wife (your one is not yours but you got the point), would you expel him or eat him?
Of course I would eat him alive. But the comparison is not valid : the Muslims that Baruch Goldstein killed were not attacking Jews.
Again, I have no compassion for the slain Muslims and all my heart goes for Baruch Goldstein who, I believe, was a great Jew, and if there is one loss of life I regret in this case, it's his. But I am trying to be fair. That day, Baruch Goldstein did not act in self-defence. Furthermore, I am not sure that what he did can be entirely justified as a form of pre-emptive strike. Personally, I do not condemn him, and, to be honest, I am happy that he must have ridden this world of a few vicious snakes. But my feelings are biased. If I stop thinking as a Jew, then I have to admit that his actions, that day, were questionable.
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I would hunt down all old & new NAZIS! OPERATION ATILLA! >:(
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No. You can kill him if he tries to implement his "ideas", but as long as he has not touched a Jew's finger you don't have the right to kill him.
And which Mishna or Braita are you quoting that from? War is WAR. Bottom line is their are no "innocent" civilians. Haven't you even watched any war movies? It is the "good" ones who'm are let go that in the end stab you the worst way. This happened before even with Israel where a whole Israeli unit was whipped out because they had mercy on an old Arab Shepard- who they discovered and let go, and then who went and told the other Arabs that these Yehudim were there. They were out numbered and butchered all because of "Jewish mercy" as usual. Had they just killed him they would probably all be alive.
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And which Mishna or Braita are you quoting that from? War is WAR. Bottom line is their are no "innocent" civilians. Haven't you even watched any war movies? It is the "good" ones who'm are let go that in the end stab you the worst way. This happened before even with Israel where a whole Israeli unit was whipped out because they had mercy on an old Arab Shepard- who they discovered and let go, and then who went and told the other Arabs that these Yehudim were there. They were out numbered and butchered all because of "Jewish mercy" as usual. Had they just killed him they would probably all be alive.
I wasn't referring to a war context. If you were less arrogant, you might manage to listen to what the others say and understand it. But since you bring up the question of war, I have to remind you that there are rules of war. Not all ennemies can be equated with Amalek so you don't just exterminate every living creature in a war. The Torah provides several examples of these rules of war in various circumstances. You might want to have a look at them since you claim to stand for Torah Judaism.
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And which Mishna or Braita are you quoting that from? War is WAR. Bottom line is their are no "innocent" civilians. Haven't you even watched any war movies? It is the "good" ones who'm are let go that in the end stab you the worst way. This happened before even with Israel where a whole Israeli unit was whipped out because they had mercy on an old Arab Shepard- who they discovered and let go, and then who went and told the other Arabs that these Yehudim were there. They were out numbered and butchered all because of "Jewish mercy" as usual. Had they just killed him they would probably all be alive.
That's one of the saddest things about human nature, that evil people don't know how to show gratitude when shown kindness but instead respond with more evil, and that good people have to limit their kindness in certain situations.
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I wasn't referring to a war context. If you were less arrogant, you might manage to listen to what the others say and understand it. But since you bring up the question of war, I have to remind you that there are rules of war. Not all ennemies can be equated with Amalek so you don't just exterminate every living creature in a war. The Torah provides several examples of these rules of war in various circumstances. You might want to have a look at them since you claim to stand for Torah Judaism.
Except according to many Rabbinical authorities, anyone who wishes to destroy the Jewish people are Amalek. The "Palestinians" are not willing to live in peace...they want to finish Hitler's job. The same goes with the rest of the Muslim world. They deserve to have done to them what they want to do with Gd's people.
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That's one of the saddest things about human nature, that evil people don't know how to show gratitude when shown kindness but instead respond with more evil, and that good people have to limit their kindness in certain situations.
So true..especially with righteous Jews and gentiles who only want to live in peace and quiet and improve the world.
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I wasn't referring to a war context. If you were less arrogant, you might manage to listen to what the others say and understand it. But since you bring up the question of war, I have to remind you that there are rules of war. Not all ennemies can be equated with Amalek so you don't just exterminate every living creature in a war. The Torah provides several examples of these rules of war in various circumstances. You might want to have a look at them since you claim to stand for Torah Judaism.
Well what do you think we are in now, if not a war? Are you brainwashed to believe that it is only a few "terrorists" and not a whole group of people fighting against the Jewish nation?
Like I said instead of you having emotional outbursts against what I am saying (and it doesn't bother me, its just funny) go ahead and prove your point with actual texts you claim exist.
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Well what do you think we are in now, if not a war? Are you brainwashed to believe that it is only a few "terrorists" and not a whole group of people fighting against the Jewish nation?
Like I said instead of you having emotional outbursts against what I am saying (and it doesn't bother me, its just funny) go ahead and prove your point with actual texts you claim exist.
First of all, before you decide to take anybody's life, I suggest you think about these three passages :
1) "And G-d created a human [being] in [G-d’s] image. In the divine image G-d created the human… And G-d saw all that [G-d] had made, and found it very good."
Genesis 1:27, 31
2) "Whoever sheds the blood of a human being by human beings shall his blood be shed, for in the divine image did G-d make humanity"
Genesis 9:6
3) "When one destroys a single individual, it is as if that person destroyed the whole world"
(Sanhedrin 4:5)
Next, during a war, I suggest you think about these two passages :
1) "When you approach a city to do battle with it you should call to it in peace. And if they respond in peace and they open the city to you, all the people in the city shall pay taxes to you and be subservient. And if they do not make peace with you, you shall wage war with them and you may besiege them"
Deuteronomy 20:10-12
2) "Joshua, before he entered the Land of Israel, sent three letters to its inhabitants. The first one said that those that wish to flee should flee. The second one said that those that wish to make peace should make peace. The third letter said that those who want a war should prepare to fight a war"
Maimonides, Kingship 6:5
It is also codified in Jewish law that, when in battle, a Jewish army must not completely surround the enemy on all four sides. The army must leave one side open in order to allow non-combatants to flee and needless bloodshed to be avoided.
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1) Okay
2) Okay
3) Talking about a Jew. But okay as well.
- All of these are not talking about a time of war.
1) Talking about a Milhemit Reishut NOT a Milhemit Mitzwah
2) "Joshua, before he entered the Land of Israel", today the third part is taking place now.
3) Soo? Well let them flee no problem, but if a building has terrorists or whomever else shooting at me, I would shoot back at the building destroying all of it. If some of the people flee before-hand, fine. If not their blood is on their hands.
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First of all, before you decide to take anybody's life, I suggest you think about these three passages :
1) "And G-d created a human [being] in [G-d’s] image. In the divine image G-d created the human… And G-d saw all that [G-d] had made, and found it very good."
Genesis 1:27, 31
2) "Whoever sheds the blood of a human being by human beings shall his blood be shed, for in the divine image did G-d make humanity"
Genesis 9:6
3) "When one destroys a single individual, it is as if that person destroyed the whole world"
(Sanhedrin 4:5)
Next, during a war, I suggest you think about these two passages :
1) "When you approach a city to do battle with it you should call to it in peace. And if they respond in peace and they open the city to you, all the people in the city shall pay taxes to you and be subservient. And if they do not make peace with you, you shall wage war with them and you may besiege them"
Deuteronomy 20:10-12
2) "Joshua, before he entered the Land of Israel, sent three letters to its inhabitants. The first one said that those that wish to flee should flee. The second one said that those that wish to make peace should make peace. The third letter said that those who want a war should prepare to fight a war"
Maimonides, Kingship 6:5
It is also codified in Jewish law that, when in battle, a Jewish army must not completely surround the enemy on all four sides. The army must leave one side open in order to allow non-combatants to flee and needless bloodshed to be avoided.
Yaacov, your quotes from the Torah only prove Tag's point of view as correct: Let's start with the first three statements from Genesis. Certainly if someone were to commit murder out of the blue, those three statements apply. But you neglect to mention another very important Jewish law...if someone comes to slay you, you should slay him first....does that mean it is the destruction of the world to save yourself or the Jewish people?
now for the second part, you wrote: 1) "When you approach a city to do battle with it you should call to it in peace. And if they respond in peace and they open the city to you, all the people in the city shall pay taxes to you and be subservient. And if they do not make peace with you, you shall wage war with them and you may besiege them"
Deuteronomy 20:10-12 "
And guess what? Israel has offered peace not once, not twice, not three times, but a ton of times and still they want war...so guess what? We are at war.
Next:
"Joshua, before he entered the Land of Israel, sent three letters to its inhabitants. The first one said that those that wish to flee should flee. The second one said that those that wish to make peace should make peace. The third letter said that those who want a war should prepare to fight a war"
Maimonides, Kingship 6:5 "
Guess what? The "Palestinians" don't want peace. They want war. 97% of the civilian population voted for Hamas...so yes, they want war.
Finally:
You wrote: "It is also codified in Jewish law that, when in battle, a Jewish army must not completely surround the enemy on all four sides. The army must leave one side open in order to allow non-combatants to flee and needless bloodshed to be avoided."
Guess what? Jordan is to the east...and a lot of Falestinians live there now...So it's an opportunity for the Falestinians to save themselves unless they decide to die fighting which is fine with me.
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Yaakov- All of these things are discussed by Rav Kahane ZTKL HYD in his book Or Harayon (The Jewish idea). Available in Evrit and English. He ripps apart those leftists and also "Rabbis" who bring half quotes from here and there, and promoting the idea that "we are all equal" and things like that. Just read this book.
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Yaacov, your quotes from the Torah only prove Tag's point of view as correct: Let's start with the first three statements from Genesis. Certainly if someone were to commit murder out of the blue, those three statements apply. But you neglect to mention another very important Jewish law...if someone comes to slay you, you should slay him first....does that mean it is the destruction of the world to save yourself or the Jewish people?
now for the second part, you wrote: 1) "When you approach a city to do battle with it you should call to it in peace. And if they respond in peace and they open the city to you, all the people in the city shall pay taxes to you and be subservient. And if they do not make peace with you, you shall wage war with them and you may besiege them"
Deuteronomy 20:10-12 "
And guess what? Israel has offered peace not once, not twice, not three times, but a ton of times and still they want war...so guess what? We are at war.
Next:
"Joshua, before he entered the Land of Israel, sent three letters to its inhabitants. The first one said that those that wish to flee should flee. The second one said that those that wish to make peace should make peace. The third letter said that those who want a war should prepare to fight a war"
Maimonides, Kingship 6:5 "
Guess what? The "Palestinians" don't want peace. They want war. 97% of the civilian population voted for Hamas...so yes, they want war.
Finally:
You wrote: "It is also codified in Jewish law that, when in battle, a Jewish army must not completely surround the enemy on all four sides. The army must leave one side open in order to allow non-combatants to flee and needless bloodshed to be avoided."
Guess what? Jordan is to the east...and a lot of Falestinians live there now...So it's an opportunity for the Falestinians to save themselves unless they decide to die fighting which is fine with me.
I don't have to be reminded that the Arabs don't want peace. What do you think I'm doing here ?
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These arabs are trespassers and have no right to step foot in the Macpelah. After the 6 day war the so called Mosque should have been fully dismantled. How appropriate with this week's sedrah being Chaye Sarah. I don't feel sorry one ounce. Midah Keneged Medah with the Arab massacre in '29. I think the Arabs got off lightly.
Nekama
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I don't have to be reminded that the Arabs don't want peace. What do you think I'm doing here ?
So why do you choose quotes from the Torah that only prove your point wrong?
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This article discusses many issues regarding War according to Jewish Halacha:
http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/war1.html
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II. Grounds for Starting War
A. Jewish Law's View of Secular Nations at War
Jews have historically been a people living in the diaspora and were (and still are) citizens of countries where Jewish law was not the ethical or legal touchstone of moral conduct by the government. As citizens of a host country, it is necessary to develop a method for determining whether the host country's military activity is permissible according to Jewish law.4
Two distinctly different rationales are extant to justify the use of military force. The first is the general rules of self-defense, which are as applicable to the defense of a group of people as they are to the defense of a single person. The Talmud5 rules that a person is permitted to kill a pursuer to save his own life regardless of whether the person being pursued is a Jew or a Gentile. While there is some dispute among modern Jewish law authorities as to whether Jewish law mandates or merely permits a Gentile or bystander to take the life of one who is trying to kill another, nearly all authorities posit that such conduct is at the least permissible.6
It is obvious that the laws of pursuit are equally applicable to a group of individuals or a nation as they are to a single person. Military action thus becomes permissible, or more likely obligatory, when it is defensive in nature, or undertaken to aid the victim of aggression. However, using the pursuer paradigm to analyze "war" leads one to conclude that all of the restrictions related to this rationale apply also.7 War, if it is to exist legally as a morally sanctioned event, must permit some forms of killing other than that which are allowed through the self-defense rationale; the modern institution of "war" cannot exist as derivative of the self-defense rules alone.
There are a number of recent authorities that explicitly state that the institution of "war" is legally recognized as a distinct moral license (independent of the laws of pursuer and self-defense) to terminate life according to Jewish law even for secular nations. Rabbi Naphtali Zevi Yehudah Berlin,8 argues that the very verse that prohibits murder, permits war. He claims that the words "from the hand of a man, your brother"9 prohibit killing only when it is proper to behave in a brotherly manner, but at times of war, killing that would otherwise be prohibited, is permitted. Indeed, such an opinion can also be found in the medieval Talmudic commentary of Tosaphot.10
Other authorities disagree. Rabbi Moshe Sofer (Chatam Sofer11) appears to adopt a middle position and accepts that wars of aggression are never permitted to secular nations; however, he does appear to recognize the institution of "war" distinct from the pursuer rationale in the context of defense wars. A number of other rabbinic authorities appear to accept this position also.12
B. A Jewish Nation Starting a War
The discussion in the commentaries concerning the issues involved in a Jewish nation starting a war is far more detailed and subject to much more extensive discussion than that of secular nations going to war.13
The Talmud14 understands that a special category of permitted killing called "war" exists which is analytically different from other permitted forms of killing, like the killing of a pursuer or a house robber. The Talmud delimits two categories of permissible war: 1) Obligatory; and 2) Authorized.15 It is crucial to determine which category of "war" any particular type of conflict is. As explained below, many of the restrictions placed by Jewish law on the type of conduct prohibited by war is frequently limited to Authorized rather than Obligatory wars.16 Logic would dictate, and Jewish law accepts, that a specifically divinely mandated conflict has certain ethical rules not found in any other type of military engagement.17
According to the Talmud,18 Obligatory wars are those wars started in direct fulfillment of a specific biblical commandment, such as the obligation to destroy the tribe of Amalek in biblical times. Authorized wars are wars undertaken to increase territory or "to diminish the heathens so that they shall not march" which is, as explained below, a category of military action given different parameters by different authorities.19 Maimonides, in his codification of the law, writes that:
The king must first wage only obligatory wars. What is an obligatory war? It is a war against the seven nations, the war against Amalek, and a war to deliver Israel from an enemy who has attacked them. Then he may wage authorized wars, which is a war against others in order to enlarge the borders of Israel and to increase his greatness and prestige.20
Surprisingly enough, the category of "to save Israel from an enemy..." is not found in the Talmud. In addition, the category of preemptive war21 is not mentioned in Maimonides formulation of the law even though it is found in the Talmud.22
What was Maimonides' understanding of the Talmud and how did he develop these categories? These questions are the key focus of a discussion on the laws of starting wars. The classical commentaries, both ancient and modern, grapple with the dividing line between "a war to deliver Israel from an enemy who has attacked them" and a war "to enlarge the borders of Israel and to increase his [the king's] greatness and prestige." Each of these approaches underlies different understandings of when a war is obligatory, authorized or prohibited and the ethical duties associated with each category.
Ibn Tibbon's translation of Maimonides' commentary on the Mishnah suggests that Maimonides' felt that an obligatory war does not start until one is actually attacked by an army: authorized wars include all defensive non-obligatory wars and all military actions commenced for any reason other than self-defense.23 According to this definition, the use of force prior to the initial use of force by one's opponents can only be justified through the "pursuer" or self-defense rationale. All other military activity is prohibited.
Rabbi Joseph Kapach in his translation of the same commentary of Maimonides understands Maimonides to permit war against nations that have previously fought with Israel and that are still technically at war with the Jewish nation - even though no fighting is now going one. An offensive war cannot be justified even as an authorized war unless a prior state of belligerency existed.24
Rabbi Abraham diBotem, in his commentary on Maimonides (Lechem Mishneh)25 posits that the phrase "to enhance the king's greatness and prestige" includes all of the categories of authorized war permitted in the Talmud. Once again, all wars other than purely defensive wars where military activity is solely initiated by one's opponents are classified as authorized wars or illegal wars. Obligatory wars are limited to purely defensive wars.
Rabbi Abraham Isaiah Karlitz (Chazon Ish) claims that Maimonides' definition of an Authorized war is referring to a use of force in a war of attrition situation.26 In any circumstance in which prior "battle" has occurred and that battle was initiated by the enemy, the war that is being fought is an obligatory one.27 According to this approach, the use of military force prior to the start of a war of attrition is prohibited (unless justified by the general rules of self-defense, in which case a "war" is not being fought according to Jewish law.)
C. Summary
Jewish law regarding wars by secular governments thus can be divided into three categories:
1) War to save the nation which is now, or soon to be, under attack. This is not technically war but is permitted because of the law of "pursuer" and is subject to all of the restrictions related to the law of pursuer and the rules of self-defense.
2) War to aid an innocent third party who is under attack. This too, is not technically war, but most commentators mandate this, also under the "pursuer" rationale, but some rule this is merely permitted. In either case, it is subject to all of the restrictions related to the "pursuer" rationale.
3) Wars (of self defense or perhaps territorial expansion). A number of commentators permit "war" as an institution even in situations where non-combatants might be killed; most commentaries limit this license to defensive wars.
So too, Jewish law regarding wars by the Jewish government can be divided into three (different) categories:
1) Defending the people of Israel from attack by an aggressive neighbor. This is an obligatory war.
2) Fighting offensive wars against belligerent neighbors (See pages 5 to 6 for the various opinions on what is belligerent).
3) The protecting of individuals through the use of the laws of "pursuer" and self defense from aggressive neighbors. This is not a "war" according to the Jewish tradition.28
Finally it is crucial to realize that there are situations where war is -- in the Jewish tradition -- simply illigal. The killings that take place in that war, if not directly based on immediated self-defense needs,29 is murder and participation is thoses wars is prohibited according to Jewish law.30
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I am fed up being treated with contempt and arrogance. I am fed up being accused of things I never said or thought. I have raised points in this thread that are not stupid. Now have a good laugh at my latest "emotional outburst".
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I am fed up being treated with contempt and arrogance. I am fed up being accused of things I never said or thought. I have raised points in this thread that are not stupid. Now have a good laugh at my latest "emotional outburst".
Honestly grow up. Don't know why you are taking everything personally. You raised objections, were proven "not right",and now are complaining. What do you want us to do, to accept some of the wrong statements you have said just not to make you feel bad? If you have a point to make, make it, (try to) prove me or other people here wrong.
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Another great shiur dealing with this topic
"Life and the Taking of Life: the Torah Perspective - Part 2
Hear how to treat "innocent" civilians in wartime. Learn why peace treaties with non-Jews in the Land of Israel are forbidden--as is marrying goyim. Find out when you can save the life of a non-Jew. Plus: hear about the danger of astrology. Who censored the Talmud and the Rambam... and why? "
http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/41-audiohalakha/230-life-and-the-taking-of-life-the-torah-perspective-part-2
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I am fed up being treated with contempt and arrogance. I am fed up being accused of things I never said or thought. I have raised points in this thread that are not stupid. Now have a good laugh at my latest "emotional outburst".
Wait what? come on yaacov. Where ate we defaming you or treating you with arrogance? Debate us prove your point. If we are proving you wrong own up to it or debate back. I have never heard if rabbis complaining with each other if they were proven wrong.
Or if we are misunderstanding you, then explain your position better.
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Honestly grow up. Don't know why you are taking everything personally. You raised objections, were proven "not right",and now are complaining. What do you want us to do, to accept some of the wrong statements you have said just not to make you feel bad? If you have a point to make, make it, (try to) prove me or other people here wrong.
No, many of my objections were not proven "not right". You don't even have an idea of what a "proof" is. You've been patronizing me in an arrogant and contemptuous manner, whether about my family situation or about what I said in this thread, but that doesn't in the least "prove" that all I said is pointless.
Your personal judgements on what I do and the way I think, you can shove them up where you know. I was stupid enough to keep talking to you, I won't make the same mistake again.
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Wait what? come on yaacov. Where ate we defaming you or treating you with arrogance? Debate us prove your point. If we are proving you wrong own up to it or debate back. I have never heard if rabbis complaining with each other if they were proven wrong.
Or if we are misunderstanding you, then explain your position better.
I'm sorry Dr Dan, but if you don't understand that I am annoyed to be dishonestly portrayed as a fool, a weakling and an immature person after all the discussions I've been involved in on this forum, then I have nothing else to say. I have raised points worthy of discussion and they haven't been addressed. So there is no need for me to explain my position better.
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This is really effective...Great cinema photography and really stunning to watch...People will remember this.
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This is really effective...Great cinema photography and really stunning to watch...People will remember this.
You mean it is effective Arab propaganda?