JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on March 09, 2013, 01:26:13 PM
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Obviously this poll is targeted towards JTF Christians, but anyone can vote and throw in their two cents. It's pretty self-explanatory.
George Soros, grand financier of every communist, Nazi, and socially subversive movement on planet earth
Hu Jintao, dictator of the People's Republic of China, the greatest industrial/economic/financial power on the planet
Barack Hussein Obama, grand ayatollah of the United Caliphates of America
Gabrielle Giffords, idolized Bolshevik congresswoman who survived being shot in the head
Michael Bloomberg, all-powerful sultan of NYC
Chris Christie, closet Muslim governor of NJ who is beloved by both parties and the entire American pop culture
Lady Gaga, devil-worshipping hermaphroditic pop star who singlehandedly got the U.S. armed forces to admit fags
WFTMPTC
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Best bet would be george soros, because obama is just too dumb. Obama hates out of simplistic hate and egotism, george soros has the required intelligence to be thoroughly evil.
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Due to an error created by hurry, I voted for "other", which now I know is wrong.
Anti-Christ (The New Big Beast): The most powerful nation on the earth led by the most powerful man on the earth, who with great diplomacy and intelligence has recently emerged out of shear obscurity.
The Old and dead Big Beast: The British Empire
Red Dragon - China led by their leader named as Jin.
666 - pakistan
False Prophet - Muslamic leader of the last hollow and united muslamic empire on the earth.
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Three words, Barack Husssein Obama.
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None of the above since hitler was worse than all those animals listed.
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Holy fathers informed us that he was born and is currently behind many world affairs.
Many pray to him to get power and money:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_bcfhG48QLBk/S80mOHgCY5I/AAAAAAAAAEY/PkhiR6_WZLs/s1600/beyoncegoathead-Baphomet.jpg)
(http://mindcontrolblackassassins.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/dejam3.jpg)
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My vote is Soros, he is the puppet master! He wants one world government, one world currency, and open borders.
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Me, I'm bad and I didn't brush my teeth twice today. Even if I can afford the $20 toothpaste, I'm inclined to be stingy. Did anyone brush three times today? Why would you need to do that?
You may be!
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The antichrist will have to be a man because it's a mockery of the real Messiah who is male. Also I've been told the original language refers to the antichrist as he, not she. They also have to come from the territories that used to be controlled by Rome. So that means that someone born in the USA or Canada can't be the anti-Christ. I don't think it will be George Soros. The anti-Christ will be a very well-spoken and charismatic individual that will deceive the masses.
Remember that there will be both a Beast and a false prophet. Beware of the 7 year peace treaty.
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The antichrist will have to be a man because it's a mockery of the real Messiah who is male. Also I've been told the original language refers to the antichrist as he, not she. They also have to come from the territories that used to be controlled by Rome. So that means that someone born in the USA or Canada can't be the anti-Christ. I don't think it will be George Soros. The anti-Christ will be a very well-spoken and charismatic individual that will deceive the masses.
Remember that there will be both a Beast and a false prophet. Beware of the 7 year peace treaty.
Soros was born in Austria ... Who do think could be?
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Soros was born in Austria ... Who do think could be?
I'm not going to speculate on any one person being the antichrist right now, but I don't think anyone in the list qualifies. Soros might come the closest but he's too old and his voice is too raspy to deceive billions. He's probably going to die soon and he's not a likeable figure.
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Do you think they are here yet?
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Do you think they are here yet?
I think it's possible that they are. Whatever you do, don't take the mark. We're not sure what form that will take right now but you'll be able to identify it because you won't be able to participate in the economy, medical system, etc. without it. If you do take it, then you will go to hell forever. You'll be cut off forever.
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I think it's possible that they are. Whatever you do, don't take the mark. We're not sure what form that will take right now but you'll be able to identify it because you won't be able to participate in the economy, medical system, etc. without it. If you do take it, then you will go to hell forever. You'll be cut off forever.
I will never take a mark or bow down to a man!
What if we already have, ssn, and didn't know it?
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I will never take a mark or bow down to a man!
What if we already have, ssn, and didn't know it?
There are a lot of precursors to get us ready such as that, but you can still buy or sell if you don't have a social security number. This will also be a world wide system.
It will be something that can identify you and has to be in the right hand or forehead. That means it can't be something that you carry with you or wear outside of your body like a social security card.
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The antichrist will have to be a man because it's a mockery of the real Messiah who is male. Also I've been told the original language refers to the antichrist as he, not she. They also have to come from the territories that used to be controlled by Rome. So that means that someone born in the USA or Canada can't be the anti-Christ. I don't think it will be George Soros. The anti-Christ will be a very well-spoken and charismatic individual that will deceive the masses.
Remember that there will be both a Beast and a false prophet. Beware of the 7 year peace treaty.
I don't know that there are verses saying that the AC must be a male. What about the whore of Babylon?
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I'm not going to speculate on any one person being the antichrist right now, but I don't think anyone in the list qualifies. Soros might come the closest but he's too old and his voice is too raspy to deceive billions. He's probably going to die soon and he's not a likeable figure.
He has the financial means to have himself preserved and "resurrected" at a later date when that technology is possible.
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Holy fathers informed us that he was born and is currently behind many world affairs.
I think that's very possible. Some people think that the book/movie Rosemary's baby was actually a coded announcement that he had been born around that time. I don't know what to think about that but I found it an interesting hypothesis anyway.
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I don't know that there are verses saying that the AC must be a male. What about the whore of Babylon?
Most people who teach about this say that the whore of Babylon is supposed to be a false form of Christianity. Don't we see such a thing taking form today? Look at all the churches that now embrace homosexuality and more are going that way every day. Look at how many churches are ok with abortion, etc.
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All I know about the anticrist is from the movie The Omen. All 3 of the Omen movies from the 70s and 80s.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hGJ5mk9Wgk
Consequently, I NO LONGER watch those kind of movies. I watched them in my non-religious days a long long time ago though and it creeped me out. "Damien" might have been American, but I think he was born in Rome in the first movie. Anyways, please don't get a wrong impression of my, I am not into watching demon movies or anything like that. If someone would try to pay me to watch a scary movie like that, I would not do it. In fact, I don't recommend that anyone watch those movies.
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I didn't watch that movie but I doubt a lot of good information is going to come from movies. It reminds me a little of someone who was trying to argue with me about the Bible one time and then admitted that what they had actually read was "Paradise Lost" and not Genesis/Bereshit. lol
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Remember that there will be both a Beast and a false prophet. Beware of the 7 year peace treaty.
Hudna (Lilke Mohammad against the Tribe of Korish)?
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Whore of Babylon wearing velvet dresses is unfortunately a combination of the modern attributes of democracy, secularism, OWG, NWO and big business. This whore of Babylon rides on the back of the New Big Beast.
666 is a Small Beast who lures and prepares everyone to get the mark of the New Big Beast and all the Kings of the Earth in unison sing the songs in praise of the New Big Beast at UN.
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Hudna (Lilke Mohammad against the Tribe of Korish)?
This will be a 7 year peace treaty between Israel and her enemies, and people will think there is peace at least, but it will be a deception, as all these stupid peace treaties have been. It won't seem like it at first though.
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Holy fathers informed us that he was born and is currently behind many world affairs.
Many pray to him to get power and money:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_bcfhG48QLBk/S80mOHgCY5I/AAAAAAAAAEY/PkhiR6_WZLs/s1600/beyoncegoathead-Baphomet.jpg)
(http://mindcontrolblackassassins.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/dejam3.jpg)
We are talking about the real Antichrist here that will come and bring calamity, not Beyonce and Rihanna, who look like street-walkers and are into Satan symbols, they are Satanic strumpets.
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Whore of Babylon wearing velvet dresses is unfortunately a combination of the modern attributes of democracy, secularism, OWG, NWO and big business. This whore of Babylon rides on the back of the New Big Beast.
666 is a Small Beast who lures and prepares everyone to get the mark of the New Big Beast and all the Kings of the Earth in unison sing the songs in praise of the New Big Beast at UN.
It may also need to be added that even US and Canada shall be connected with Rome through the ancient theological, civilization and genetic roots of origin.
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We are talking about the real Antichrist here that will come and bring calamity, not Beyonce and Rihanna, who look like street-walkers and are into Satan symbols, they are Satanic strumpets.
Entertainers like Beyonce, Rihanna, Jay-Z, Lady Gaga, Taylor Swfit, Katy Perry, etc. are putting these kinds of Satanic symbols out in the public to get people accustomed to them and to put this kind of thing as being acceptable.
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Entertainers like Beyonce, Rihanna, Jay-Z, Lady Gaga, Taylor Swfit, Katy Perry, etc. are putting these kinds of Satanic symbols out in the public to get people accustomed to them and to put this kind of thing as being acceptable.
That shall be called indications of the revelations.
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This will be a 7 year peace treaty between Israel and her enemies, and people will think there is peace at least, but it will be a deception, as all these stupid peace treaties have been. It won't seem like it at first though.
That happened already. The Oslo Accords were signed in 1993 and the Oslo War started in 2000.
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Except that it wasn't real "peace" because Jews were still getting shot and blown up fairly regularly in that timespan.
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Islam is the Antichrist! This pop stars are just funny. I laugh about this Satanic/ Illuminati stuff!
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Wow, looking at the pictures of the singers makes me happy that I am not into that worldly filth! People should elevate their souls, not bury their souls with filth like that.
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That happened already. The Oslo Accords were signed in 1993 and the Oslo War started in 2000.
It's going to be different because there really will be a complete cease fire (at least for a while) as DBF mentioned. It will appear to be real peace.
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Wow, looking at the pictures of the singers makes me happy that I am not into that worldly filth! People should elevate their souls, not bury their souls with filth like that.
I think it's very hard to be famous these days and not get corrupted by all that stuff. There are probably very few well-known celebrities that haven't sold themselves out to evil and there's likely a lot of people who are just as or more talented than the famous people who will never really get their time in the spotlight because they won't sell out.
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Islam is the Antichrist! This pop stars are just funny. I laugh about this Satanic/ Illuminati stuff!
Islam is certainly a tool that can be used as it's one of the most evil philosophies on earth.
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I know I'm going to get a lot of flack for saying this, but wouldn't it be a btch if Jesus was also the antichrist?
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Wow, looking at the pictures of the singers makes me happy that I am not into that worldly filth! People should elevate their souls, not bury their souls with filth like that.
If you just stop watching television you get spared from a lot of garbage already.
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Islam is the Antichrist! This pop stars are just funny. I laugh about this Satanic/ Illuminati stuff!
Overtly muslam can not be antiChrist, because antiChrist has to be a christian at least overtly, so that he can justify himself to be like Christ.
Muslam will be in the most ferocious role of the False Prophet/666 who along with the New Big Beast will be burnt in the eternal fire of many vivid chemicals. And the Red Dragon will be chained for another 1000 years.
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This pop stars are just funny. I laugh about this Satanic/ Illuminati stuff!
I agree. They are laughable.
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Obviously this poll is targeted towards JTF Christians, but anyone can vote and throw in their two cents. It's pretty self-explanatory.
George Soros, grand financier of every communist, Nazi, and socially subversive movement on planet earth
Hu Jintao, dictator of the People's Republic of China, the greatest industrial/economic/financial power on the planet
Barack Hussein Obama, grand ayatollah of the United Caliphates of America
Gabrielle Giffords, idolized Bolshevik congresswoman who survived being shot in the head
Michael Bloomberg, all-powerful sultan of NYC
Chris Christie, closet Muslim governor of NJ who is beloved by both parties and the entire American pop culture
Lady Gaga, devil-worshipping hermaphroditic pop star who singlehandedly got the U.S. armed forces to admit fags
WFTMPTC
Whoever it is, maybe it is not even on this list, should be captured, then the exorcism should be performed at him. ;D
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Different denominations of Christianity explain differently what is the definition of Antichrist. Some tried to detail the relationship between Antichrist and Satan: "Satan wil become incarnate in the Antichrist", just as God became incarnate in Jesus in Christianity. For O.C. believers, that is problematic since that was way too similar to Christ's incarnation and that view is not accepted. The view that is accepted more is the "indwelling" view which says the the Antichrist is a human figure inhabited by Satan, since the latter's power is not to be seen as equivalent to God's. Satan/Antichrist is one of humanity's three enemies. It is indeed a human figure and it that shape and form he will be among us. Some types of Christianity teach about Satan/Antichrist as a more mystical, unhuman figure, which I disagree with. IMO Antichrist is in a human form.
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I think that he will be a human being that is taken over/possessed.
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In his Ask JTF for this week, Chaim makes a darn good case for Rand Paul being the Antichrist. :o
I have edited my poll to allow for him as an option.
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I know I'm going to get a lot of flack for saying this, but wouldn't it be a btch if Jesus was also the antichrist?
Not really sure what you mean by this, or how it is possible. The NT says Jesus will return and that also there will be a false messiah at the same time.
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I don't think an American will be the anti-Christ, but I think you're hitting closer to the target in some ways because Rand, as evil as he is, does have charisma.
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I know I'm going to get a lot of flack for saying this, but wouldn't it be a btch if Jesus was also the antichrist?
Dan actually you make a good point because a lot of people who think they are Christians now, such as "Christians" who voted for Obama, will fall for the deception and believe that the anti-Christ is the second coming of Jesus. It will appear that way to many people.
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Not really sure what you mean by this, or how it is possible. The NT says Jesus will return and that also there will be a false messiah at the same time.
Don't want to push any buttons. But in Judaism, Jesus isn't the messiah. It would be ironic though that if Judaism believed in an anti Christ it could be Jesus.
But Judaism doesn't believe in any of that, so you have nothing to worry about. Christ anti Christ makes no difference. We judge evil people and behavior as evil and righteous with righteous. There is really no such thing as the "most evil" because that would just diminish other evil.
This list makes a mockery of what Christians want an antichrist to be. You mean to tell me lady gaga was worse than hitler? She's no angel, but come on!
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Gabriel giffords? Really?! I know that what happened to her lead to more anti gun campaign and I know she supports pro amnesty and Obama which are really bad. But in comparison to hitler or even Arafat? Gabrielle giffords Anti Christ really?!
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There has been speculation that the reign of the Antichrist has begun, and that his servants are already being sealed with his seal and with the number “666”. I still don't see any agreement about what the seal of the beast really is, nor about the meaning of his number. My particular Church didn't give an authoritative interpretation of the thirteenth to twentieth chapters of Revelation and their symbols – the first beast, the second beast, the horns and heads of the beast, his seal and image and number, the whore of Babylon, etc.
I think the Antichrist in his last, personal incarnation, has not yet appeared. I don't think we know have all the prophecies relating to the times preceding the appearance of the Antichrist already been fulfilled? There will always be different understandings of the basic prophecies. " The third period" is in fact the time of the enthronement of the Antichrist, but does anyone know when exactly that will happen? Not yet.
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I know I'm going to get a lot of flack for saying this, but wouldn't it be a btch if Jesus was also the antichrist?
Huh?
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I know I'm going to get a lot of flack for saying this, but wouldn't it be a btch if Jesus was also the antichrist?
You are wrong, Jesus was not Antichrist, and the possible thing which can happen is the Antichrist coming to the Earth pretending to be Jesus Christ in order to deceive people. It is believed the hypocrisy of the Antichrist in this will reach the point that he, even in his relationship to Christians, will not oppose them, but will appear ready to be their benefactor. He will try to imitate Christ in the external, showy side of his life. The majority of Christians, not guided by the spiritual wisdom of the Church, but by worldly wisdom, will not see this deceit, unfortunately they will be recognizing the Antichrist as Christ who has come to earth a second time.
"When you will hear that Christ has appeared on earth, know then that this is the Antichrist." This answer is most precise. "The world or mankind will not recognize the Antichrist, it will recognize him as Christ, it will proclaim him Christ..... (Righteous Zosima)
Of course, some resemblance of the Antichrist to Christ will only be external and in essence deceitful, for the whole life and all the deeds of the Antichrist will be an incensed and blasphemous revolt against Christ and His Church. This false external resemblance to Christ will appear in the very birth of the Antichrist.
Most likely the Antichrist will offer the most successful project for solving the world crisis from the perspective of political and social wisdom, which would establish a uniform political and social order in the whole world. Spiritually blinded people will not only by unaware that this project is a cowardly trap, enticing it into the most degrading and merciless slavery, but on the contrary, will recognize it as a manifestation of scholarship and genius. Universal advertisement about the Antichrist as a brilliant thinker, new leader, and savior of mankind, will thunder over all nations in the shortest possible period of time. In this period of his activity, the Antichrist will not use any force and will try to win men's trust and affection with his deceitful and hypocritical public mask of virtue.
"He will come in an image which will seduce everyone. He will come as a humble, kind, hater of falsehood (as he will say about himself), rejecting idols, preferring piety and kindness, loving the poor, bearing extremely handsome features, constant, sweet to everyone, respecting especially the Jewish nation because they will be awaiting his coming...He will take sly measures to please everyone, will not accept gifts nor speak in anger, will not show an overcast countenance, but will entice the world with a decorous exterior until he is enthroned." (St. Ephrem the Syrian)
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Lady 10,
Just in case you didn't realize, I'm Jewish so I was making a statement of irony without the intentions of offending Christians.
In Judaism, Jesus is a fake messiah and if we believed in the same principles of "Christ" and "Anti-Christ", Jesus the fake messiah would be the Anti-Christ...(hence irony).
But you guys have nothing to worry about since we don't believe in any tenants of Christian Bible. Therefore, your savior won't be the anti-savior. Or better yet, if Judaism was the true religion, then anything from the Christian Bible would be nullified and therefore no worries of anti-Christs and simply just a world to come that includes righteous Jews and Gentiles.
Again, my intention is not to offend anyone here or to convert anyone and I know that the purpose of this post is not meant to convert Jews to Christianity. So please, take what I have to say with a grain of salt. I don't mean any disrespect to anyone here and I love all of you all the same.
Just thought I would say something which I would consider funny..probably dug a deeper hole instead.
You are wrong, Jesus was not Antichrist, and the possible thing which can happen is the Antichrist coming to the Earth pretending to be Jesus Christ in order to deceive people. It is believed the hypocrisy of the Antichrist in this will reach the point that he, even in his relationship to Christians, will not oppose them, but will appear ready to be their benefactor. He will try to imitate Christ in the external, showy side of his life. The majority of Christians, not guided by the spiritual wisdom of the Church, but by worldly wisdom, will not see this deceit, unfortunately they will be recognizing the Antichrist as Christ who has come to earth a second time.
"When you will hear that Christ has appeared on earth, know then that this is the Antichrist." This answer is most precise. "The world or mankind will not recognize the Antichrist, it will recognize him as Christ, it will proclaim him Christ..... (Righteous Zosima)
Of course, some resemblance of the Antichrist to Christ will only be external and in essence deceitful, for the whole life and all the deeds of the Antichrist will be an incensed and blasphemous revolt against Christ and His Church. This false external resemblance to Christ will appear in the very birth of the Antichrist.
Most likely the Antichrist will offer the most successful project for solving the world crisis from the perspective of political and social wisdom, which would establish a uniform political and social order in the whole world. Spiritually blinded people will not only by unaware that this project is a cowardly trap, enticing it into the most degrading and merciless slavery, but on the contrary, will recognize it as a manifestation of scholarship and genius. Universal advertisement about the Antichrist as a brilliant thinker, new leader, and savior of mankind, will thunder over all nations in the shortest possible period of time. In this period of his activity, the Antichrist will not use any force and will try to win men's trust and affection with his deceitful and hypocritical public mask of virtue.
"He will come in an image which will seduce everyone. He will come as a humble, kind, hater of falsehood (as he will say about himself), rejecting idols, preferring piety and kindness, loving the poor, bearing extremely handsome features, constant, sweet to everyone, respecting especially the Jewish nation because they will be awaiting his coming...He will take sly measures to please everyone, will not accept gifts nor speak in anger, will not show an overcast countenance, but will entice the world with a decorous exterior until he is enthroned." (St. Ephrem the Syrian)
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Don't want to push any buttons. But in Judaism, Jesus isn't the messiah. It would be ironic though that if Judaism believed in an anti Christ it could be Jesus.
But Judaism doesn't believe in any of that, so you have nothing to worry about. Christ anti Christ makes no difference. We judge evil people and behavior as evil and righteous with righteous. There is really no such thing as the "most evil" because that would just diminish other evil.
This list makes a mockery of what Christians want an antichrist to be. You mean to tell me lady gaga was worse than hitler? She's no angel, but come on!
I don't think anybody in the list meets the qualifications.
The only reason I think Lady Gaga comes up in these types of discussions is that she is very openly Luciferian. All her videos have related imagery in them and she often wears clothing that mimics Eliphas Levi's Baphomet drawing, etc. She also has a globalist mindset.
Her function as far as all this goes is to introduce these ideas to young people and prepare them for the powerful globalist agenda.
She's not the anti-Christ though. She like so many other modern entertainers are just tools to implant evil ideas and promote the occult to young people.
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The reason that many Christians are concerned that we are in the end times, and that the anti-Christ and false prophet are on the way, is that never before has their been such world-wide connectivity, never before have their been such powerful globalist organizations such as the UN, Secularism and the occult mindset gained so much prominence in Western societies in recent history, There have been so many politicians openly advocating for free trade areas like the European Union, North American Union, MEFTA, etc. At the same time you have radical environmentalists calling for depopulation of the human species to "make room for nature". And of course, the founding of Israel was a very important fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. Children in schools are now being told to "think globally" and be good "world citizens" and are also being told that patriotism is jingoism and is not a good thing. This is all talked about in prophecies. So yes we're very on edge.
I am very upset because there are a lot of people I love and care about that I'm afraid will fall for the deception. Not only on this board but among some of my other friends.
I have a few friends who dabble in the occult and I wish I could bring them out of such a false religion which is called an abomination in the Bible. They may end up taking the mark and then they won't be able to come out of it.
I worry about people like us, right wingers, being declared domestic terror threats and being taken off to prisons because we posted something "hateful", "racist", "Xenophobic", etc. because we don't want the USA to become a third world banana republic, or for Israel to be overrun by Africans, etc.
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The reason that many Christians are concerned that we are in the end times, and that the anti-Christ and false prophet are on the way, is that never before has their been such world-wide connectivity, never before have their been such powerful globalist organizations such as the UN, Secularism and the occult mindset gained so much prominence in Western societies in recent history, There have been so many politicians openly advocating for free trade areas like the European Union, North American Union, MEFTA, etc. At the same time you have radical environmentalists calling for depopulation of the human species to "make room for nature". And of course, the founding of Israel was a very important fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. Children in schools are now being told to "think globally" and be good "world citizens" and are also being told that patriotism is jingoism and is not a good thing. This is all talked about in prophecies. So yes we're very on edge.
I am very upset because there are a lot of people I love and care about that I'm afraid will fall for the deception. Not only on this board but among some of my other friends.
I have a few friends who dabble in the occult and I wish I could bring them out of such a false religion which is called an abomination in the Bible. They may end up taking the mark and then they won't be able to come out of it.
I worry about people like us, right wingers, being declared domestic terror threats and being taken off to prisons because we posted something "hateful", "racist", "Xenophobic", etc. because we don't want the USA to become a third world banana republic, or for Israel to be overrun by Africans, etc.
I think that there is no doubt that we are entering dangerous times to come, but so was the time of Hitler and Stalin and the Dark Ages. I'm not sure if this is really the end of times. I'm certainly not going to wait for the end...Going to do all my best that it doesn't get worse and turns around.
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I think that there is no doubt that we are entering dangerous times to come, but so was the time of Hitler and Stalin and the Dark Ages. I'm not sure if this is really the end of times. I'm certainly not going to wait for the end...Going to do all my best that it doesn't get worse and turns around.
I don't think that these prophecies can be completely avoided, but I'm all for slowing down the globalist agenda and trying to make life as pleasant as possible for as long as possible. Even if it's God's will to allow the world to go through some kind of harsh judgment, I think it's always meritorious to fight against evil people and their plans and to delay the agenda of evil people as long as possible.
I want the children growing up now to have a good world to live in. Not one ruled by evil people.
So this is why I fight here and other places.
I do think the end times are probably near, but I hope they can be put off as long as possible. Anybody who actually WANTS the bad things prophecied to occur quickly is crazy in my opinion.
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While I am not a Christian... why wouldn't Achmadinijad or Morsi be on this list? They are as evil as Hitler are... and with the same goals.
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While I am not a Christian... why wouldn't Achmadinijad or Morsi be on this list? They are as evil as Hitler are... and with the same goals.
I think that the anti-Christ will be someone very likeable and charismatic. I wouldn't say that either of the men you mentioned really fit that mold.
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Cutting it short, the muslamic Mahdi will be the muslamic False Prophet. And the muslamic version of the Christ (Isa) will be the antiChrist.
Historians will later come correctly to the conclusion that the Small Beast (666) was the spark and initiator of all these events.
G_d willing the Jewish Messiah will prevail over all of them and they all along with their armies and disciples will be obliterated forever.
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This is still going on? I personally don't care because I don't believe there is such a thing as an anti-christ. First of all of course I don't believe in a christ because A) It's not a Hebrew word (its a greek word) B) It is from so-called prophecies which are not Jewish in origin. The Prophecy of Moshiach is clearly passed down from a Jewish prophet, and I believe with complete faith that Hashem will send the Moshiach in his appointed time. False messiahs and enemies of Israel have been history, and we have no need to fear them..
http://www.aish.com/sp/ph/48929482.html
We believe and affirm that the Messiah will come. One should not think he is detained. [Rather,] "If he should tarry, await him" (Habakkuk 2:3)
One is not to assign him a specific time of arrival, nor should one use Scripture to deduce when he is coming. For the Sages have said, "The souls of those who calculate the end will be shattered."
[One must also] believe that [the Messiah] will surpass all the kings who have ever ruled in terms of his grandeur, his greatness, and his honor. [Man should] exalt, love, and pray for him according to the prophecies prophesied about him by all the prophets from Moshe Rabbeinu to Malachi.
He who doubts or belittles [the Messiah's arrival] denies [the authority of the Torah, which explicitly promises his arrival] in the story of Bilaam and in Deuteronomy 30.
Included within this Principle is [the idea] that the king of Israel must come from the House of David and the seed of Solomon. Anyone who opposes this dynasty defies the Almighty and the words of His prophets.
-- Maimonides, 13 Principles of Faith
Jews should review Rambams Laws of Kings to learn the truth about Moshiach:
http://www.chabad.org/multimedia/media_cdo/aid/585541/jewish/Laws-of-Kings-and-their-Wars-and-King-Moshiach.htm
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I am providing this for Jews who are interested in the the Jewish perspective of the Moshiach and what the prophets said concerning the arrival of the Messianic age:
Chapter 12 from Rambams Laws of Kings and Moshiach:
http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/101744/jewish/Laws-Concerning-Kings-and-the-Messiah.htm
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Chapter XII
1. One is not to presume that anything of the ways of the world will be set aside in the Messianic era, or that there will be any innovation in the order of creation; rather, the world will continue according to its norms.33
As for that which is said in Isaiah, that “the wolf will dwell with the sheep and the leopard will lie down with the kid” 34 this is an allegory and metaphor. It means that Israel shall dwell securely alongside the wicked heathens who are likened to wolves and leopards, as it is said “a wolf from the plains ravages, a leopard lies in wait over their cities.”35 [In the Messianic era] all will return to the true religion and will neither steal nor destroy, but consume that which is permitted, in repose alongside Israel, as it is said, “the lion will eat straw like the ox.”36 All other such expressions are also allegories, and in the era of the Messianic King everyone will come to know what the allegory is about and what allusions are indicated.37
2. The sages said: “There is no difference between the present age and the Messianic era but [delivery from] subjection to foreign powers.”38
From the plain sense of the words of the prophets it is apparent that in the beginning of the Messianic era will occur the war of Gog and Magog;39 and that prior to the war of Gog and Magog a prophet will arise to correct Israel and to prepare their hearts, as it is said, “Behold, I am sending you the prophet Elijah [before the coming of the great and awesome day of G-d].”40 He will not come to declare the pure impure or the impure pure, nor to disqualify people presumed to be of legitimate lineage or to legitimize those presumed to be of disqualified lineage;41 but to establish peace in the world, as it is said, “He will turn the heart of the fathers to the children…”42
Some sages say that Elijah will come before the coming of Mashiach.43
All these and similar matters, however, man will not know how they will occur until they come to pass; for in the [statements of the] prophets these are undefined matters, and the sages, too, do not have a clear tradition on these subjects except for the [apparent] implications of the Scriptural verses. That is why they have differences of opinion in these matters. In any case, neither the sequence of these events nor their details are fundamental to the faith.
A person should not involve himself with the homiletical statements or protract on the Midrashim speaking of these or similar matters, nor is one to consider them fundamental; for they do not lead to either fear or love [of G-d].44
Likewise, one is not to calculate “ends” [dates of the Messianic redemption]. The sages said, “May the spirit expire of those who calculate the ‘ends.’ ”45 Rather, one is to await [the redemption] and believe the principle of this matter as we have explained.
3. In the era of the Messianic King, when his kingdom will be established and all of Israel will gather around him, all of them will have their pedigree determined by him,46 by means of the Holy Spirit that will rest upon him, as it is said, “He will sit as a refiner and purifier.”47 First he will purify the descendants of Levi,48 saying “This one is a legitimate Kohen (priest), and this one is a legitimate Levite,” while diverting those of improper lineage to the [rank of] Israelites.49 Thus it is said, “The governor [Nechemiah] said to them… until there will rise a Kohen with the Urim and Tumim;”50 from this you can infer that the determination of presumed pedigree and the public declaration of lineage is by means of the Holy Spirit.51
As for the Israelites, he will only determine their tribal lineage, that is, he will inform that “this one is of such-and-such a tribe and that one is of such-and-such a tribe.”52 He will not pronounce on those presumed to be of legitimate ancestry that “this one is a mamzer and that one is a ‘slave’;”53 for the law stipulates that once a family is intermixed [with the Jewish community at large] it remains intermixed.54
4. The sages and the prophets did not long for the Messianic era so that they may rule over the whole world or dominate the heathens, nor to be exalted by the nations, nor in order that they may eat, drink and be merry; but only to be free [for involvement] with the Torah and its wisdom, without anyone to oppress and disturb them, so that they may merit the life of the World-to-Come, as we explained in Hilchot Teshuvah.55
5. In that era there will be neither famine56 nor war,57 neither envy nor strife,58 because good will emanate in abundance and all delightful things will be accessible as dust.59 The one preoccupation of the entire world will be solely to know G-d. The Israelites, therefore, will be great sages and know the hidden matters,60 and they will attain knowledge of their Creator to the extent of human capacity, as it is said: “The earth shall be full with the knowledge of G-d as the waters cover the sea!”61
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Entertainers like Beyonce, Rihanna, Jay-Z, Lady Gaga, Taylor Swfit, Katy Perry, etc. are putting these kinds of Satanic symbols out in the public to get people accustomed to them and to put this kind of thing as being acceptable.
Some Churches say the number 666 it is just a number, like all the other numbers that have been created by God, the evil part is not the number itself, but the end to which it is used. You are right when you say these entertainers are using these symbols to make them acceptable. They want people to willingly and consciously accept them, so they are trying to present it as something common, which is scary.
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I don't think Ahmadinejad or Morsi will be worshipped by the entire earth, so I rule them out.
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Some Churches say the number 666 it is just a number, like all the other numbers that have been created by God, the evil part is not the number itself, but the end to which it is used. You are right when you say these entertainers are using these symbols to make them acceptable. They want people to willingly and consciously accept them, so they are trying to present it as something common, which is scary.
Yes, numbers are not evil.... And according to Jewish belief 666 is representative of limitation to the mundane (6 is a number which relates to nature, 7 represents rest/completion, and 8 represents the supernatural [beyond nature]).
http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/277/Q1/
Dear Rabbi,
Could you tell us more about the kabalistic meaning of 666? I live in a community with a large conservative Christian presence. Recently there was a big uproar over a supermarket's ad campaign because they believed the numbers 666 were hidden within. Thank you.
Dear Professor Bar-Lev and M. Brinn,
Oh, I can't tell you the answer to your question....It's a mystical secret!
Just kidding. Sort of. The truth is that the key to mystical secrets are not in any book, they're in your heart. Even if someone "reveals" a "kabbalistic secret," it remains a secret as long as you are not able to understand it. (So have no fear: The secrets of Kabbala are perfectly safe with Madonna.) But I will explain as much as I know on the subject:
The number 666 has significance as the numerical value of the Hebrew verse: "Ata yigdal na koach Ado-nai -- Now, I pray, let the Power of my Lord be great." (Numbers 14:17). This was Moshe's prayer invoking Divine Mercy on behalf of the Jewish People.
"Mosad Hayesod" cites the Vilna Gaon's commentary on the Zohar that "the number 666 contains hidden within it exalted and lofty messianic potential." No other explanation is offered there.
We do know that the number six represents the physical world. The Torah describes the creation of the universe as a six part, six day, process. Our ancient sources describe the universe as emanating in six directions -- north, south, east, west, up, down -- from a central point. All physical space and all physical objects have these six dimensions.
666 is six repeated three times. Repeating a concept three times represents the affirmation and strength of that concept. The number 666 could thus represent the strength and perfection of the physical world, which Judaism teaches will occur in the messianic era, when the physical world will reach its ultimate purpose, to be a vehicle through which the created experience the Creator.
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This is still going on? I personally don't care because I don't believe there is such a thing as an anti-christ. First of all of course I don't believe in a christ
You obviously have a problem with the topic that WFTMPTC had started. That is your problem. Of course we know you don't believe in Christ and therefore you can not believe in Antichrist either. WFTMPTC did't name this topic "Jewish JTFers: Who is/will be the Antichrist", but he specifically addressed this topic to Christian JTFers because we believe in Christ and we think Antichrist will appear. The purpose of this topic is not to provoke Jewish JTFers.
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Many numbers which are seen as 'evil' by others are actually seen as good by the Jewish religion.
Most noticeable is the number 13. To many the number 13 is an ominous and 'unlucky' numbers.
But in Judaism 13 is a very holy and special numbers.
13 is the gematria (numerical value) of the word Echad (One). We say the word Echad in the Shema prayer when we acknowledge the ONENESS of Hashem.
13 is the number of attributes of Mercy which Hashem has, which he taught to Moses when the people had sinned with the Golden Calf when he was forgiving the people, and we recite these 13 attributes as a central part of our High Holiday services (Rosh Hashana - Yom Kippur).
13 is the number of articles of faith which Rambam enumerated and are held by most Orthodox Jews as the cornerstone of Jewish faith.
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You obviously have a problem with the topic that WFTMPTC had started. That is your problem. Of course we know you don't believe in Christ and therefore you can not believe in Antichrist either. WFTMPTC did't name this topic "Jewish JTFers: Who is/will be the Antichrist", but he specifically addressed this topic to Christian JTFers because we believe in Christ and we think Antichrist will appear. The purpose of this topic is not to provoke Jewish JTFers.
I am not provoked. I realize that this is what you believe. And as always I have no problem with what others believe. But I suspect that there are Jews who are reading this thread too, so I would like to provide information which explains why Jews believe otherwise. Of course I do not intend to diminish what it is you all believe.
But I really don't understand the point of trying to figure out 'who the antichrist' is going to be.... Do you get a prize for choosing correctly? Can you avert the supposed prophecy you believe in? If Hashem says it is going to happen, it will happen with or without your acknowledgement.
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I think Rand Paul is the most likely AC candidate after listening to Chaim, but check this out:
http://7-thirteen.tumblr.com/post/4275405522/why-lady-gaga-is-the-anti-christ
It is rather tongue-in-cheek, but worth a scan nonetheless.
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I think that the anti-Christ will be someone very likeable and charismatic. I wouldn't say that either of the men you mentioned really fit that mold.
I don't know what all Churches teach, but from what I've learnd I know the whole life and activity of Antichrist will be connected in one way or another to satan, to whom he will be in conscious and voluntary submission. Antichrist will be close to the devil as no other person in the history of the world. He will be a real instrument of satan. In turn, the false prophet, who is called in the Scriptures the second beast, will be Antichrist's closest ally. Through Antichrist, satan will give enormous power and authority to the false prophet, who will act with all the authority of the first beast, and will compel all the earth and all those living upon the earth to bow down before him.
From the second verse of the nineteenth chapter of the Book of Revelation, believers can conclude that it is precisely thanks to the false prophet that many people will accept the mark of the beast. However, three and a half years later the reign of lawlessness will come to an end, for the Lord Jesus Christ will appear in glory and overwhelm all the enemies of God. And the devil will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever......
That is correct what you say, Antichrist will be very likable and charismatic. That would be his tactic.
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I don't think Ahmadinejad or Morsi will be worshipped by the entire earth, so I rule them out.
True, Ahmadinejad will certainly not be the Antichrist because he can not make people worship him and he has no charisma as Antichrist will use to deceive people. However the "evil eye" concept's description should have Ahmadinejad's picture next to it. He would make a perfect example.
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True, Ahmadinejad will certainly not be the Antichrist because he can not make people worship him and he has no charisma as Antichrist will use to deceive people. However the "evil eye" concept's description should have Ahmadinejad's picture next to it. He would make a perfect example.
What does the evil eye have to do with this? In Judaism the 'evil eye' is a form of jealousy...
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I don't know what all Churches teach, but from what I've learnd I know the whole life and activity of Antichrist will be connected in one way or another to satan, to whom he will be in conscious and voluntary submission. Antichrist will be close to the devil as no other person in the history of the world. He will be a real instrument of satan. In turn, the false prophet, who is called in the Scriptures the second beast, will be Antichrist's closest ally. Through Antichrist, satan will give enormous power and authority to the false prophet, who will act with all the authority of the first beast, and will compel all the earth and all those living upon the earth to bow down before him.
From the second verse of the nineteenth chapter of the Book of Revelation, believers can conclude that it is precisely thanks to the false prophet that many people will accept the mark of the beast. However, three and a half years later the reign of lawlessness will come to an end, for the Lord Jesus Christ will appear in glory and overwhelm all the enemies of God. And the devil will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever......
That is correct what you say, Antichrist will be very likable and charismatic. That would be his tactic.
Now you are nearest to this particular set of revelations. Congrats....
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What does the evil eye have to do with this? In Judaism the 'evil eye' is a form of jealousy...
Yes, it is a form of envy, but we interpert the "evil eye" as the demonic possession of individuals and even of objects. In the past it has been accepted by the O. Church, in exorcising satanic powers in the case of the evil eye (vaskania), and in exorcising the devil in the case of a possessed person. "Vaskania"-evil eye as we call it is simply a phenomenon that was accepted by primitive people as fact but it stayed around as a myth even nowdays (that certain people have such powerful feelings of jealousy and envy, that when they looked on some beautiful object or individual it brought destruction). In this case I used that concept on Ahmadinejad because he has an evil look, an evil stare. It was a metaphor because he kind of looks devilish.
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Now you are nearest to this particular set of revelations. Congrats....
Or just confusing with my posts.....
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"for the Lord Jesus Christ will appear in glory and overwhelm all the enemies of God. And the devil will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever......"
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For the Jewish Messiah will appear in glory and overwhelm all the enemies of G_d. And the devil the Red Dragon will be chained and cast into the lake of fire and brimstone for thousand years, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever......
After thousand years, the Red Dragon will be released again for some time.
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Yes, but don't fool yourself into believing these are Jewish prophecies or Jewish ideas...
We don't believe in a devil, and satan in Judaism is much, much different from other faiths..
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By now everyone wise knows it to more or less extent.
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Why Jews never accepted Jesus to be the one they waited for? I saw youtube video of rabbi in Serbia where he speaks from perspective of Jewish faith about Mesiah. To me it seems a very materialistic: military power, wealth.....
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Why Jews never accepted Jesus to be the one they waited for? I saw youtube video of rabbi in Serbia where he speaks from perspective of Jewish faith about Mesiah. To me it seems a very materialistic: military power, wealth.....
There are a myriad of reasons, but this is not the place to discuss this, it will cause a lot of problems...
PS: He is obviously NOT the one we are waiting for..
And it is true, Moshiach will be a military leader, who will fight a war against the enemies of the G-d of Israel, bringing about the ingathering of the Jewish exiles, and start (or complete) the building of the Third Temple.
http://www.aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html
http://ohr.edu/ask/ask00j.htm
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/247,2168834/Why-do-Jews-not-accept-Jesus-as-a-god-or-a-messiah.html
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Why Jews never accepted Jesus to be the one they waited for? I saw youtube video of rabbi in Serbia where he speaks from perspective of Jewish faith about Mesiah. To me it seems a very materialistic: military power, wealth.....
I'd like to talk about this topic elsewhere but not on JTF because it will highly offend people to bring it up and may come off as passive-aggressive missionizing, no matter what the thread title says. So I have to agree with Muman that we shouldn't address this topic here at all.
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Let's put it all out on the table ...
In my option... Jesus and many others had a spark of the messiah, but the time was not right. I believe that when the Messiah comes he will have been all of them. That brings to mind, why do Christians not believe in a spark or light of G-d being with in us? G-d is in everything! On the thought of Satan, he is a test. If you follow him you will be in powered, but you will have failed the test.
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Let's put it all out on the table ...
In my option... Jesus and many others had a spark of the messiah, but the time was not right. I believe that when the Messiah comes he will have been all of them. That brings to mind, why do Christians not believe in a spark or light of G-d being with in us? G-d is in everything! On the thought of Satan, he is a test. If you follow him you will be in powered, but you will have failed the test.
Christians believe in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for those who are saved.
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I think Rand Paul is the most likely AC candidate after listening to Chaim, but check this out:
http://7-thirteen.tumblr.com/post/4275405522/why-lady-gaga-is-the-anti-christ
It is rather tongue-in-cheek, but worth a scan nonetheless.
Based upon what others here have defined as the Antichrist.... Rand obviously wouldnt qualify... since he has very little following... and has no charisma whatsoever.... again... if you listed to him speak... you will know what I am talking about.
Compare this with Obama... who half the world loves.... and who is a strong orator... and obviously has a hidden evil agenda.
To me there is no comparison... assuming I understand this concept of an antichrist.
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Christians believe in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for those who are saved.
What about the Holy Aborigine that has not been saved or has not heard of the Messiah? Can he not feel the Holy Spirit?
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What about the Holy Aborigine that has not been saved or has not heard of the Messiah? Can he not feel the Holy Spirit?
Hmm...
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We don't believe in a devil, and satan in Judaism is much, much different from other faiths..
That is very interesting. Because while driving today, I was listening to a lecture by Rabbi Tovia Singer and he was going over the differences of "satan" in Judaism and in Christianity. It was a great lecture. For anyone interested:
http://www.torahanytime.com/rabbi_singer_judaism_and_christianity_on_satan_mp3.html (http://www.torahanytime.com/rabbi_singer_judaism_and_christianity_on_satan_mp3.html)
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That is very interesting. Because while driving today, I was listening to a lecture by Rabbi Tovia Singer and he was going over the differences of "satan" in Judaism and in Christianity. It was a great lecture. For anyone interested:
http://www.torahanytime.com/rabbi_singer_judaism_and_christianity_on_satan_mp3.html (http://www.torahanytime.com/rabbi_singer_judaism_and_christianity_on_satan_mp3.html)
I love Rabbi Singer and his anti-missionary talks... I miss his show on Arutz Sheva... (he used to do a show with Tamar Yonah)..
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I'm probably going to get asked to not post this, but one thing I never understood.
Judaism= Moshiach will not divine but a man who will fit certain qualifications and complete certain items that will change all the world for ever. Moshiach is not a suddenly heavenly revelation, but G-d's work to perfect the world. And we have to merit his coming.
Christianity- Jesus is the messiah who is also G-d and a Holy spirit, same person but different at the same time. And though him everyone is saved. Birth was a sudden revelation (ie a star over Bethlehem). What was done to merit him at that time? I mean historically speaking, what action caused his birth?
Ok so based on this:
1)Before Jesus was born, a native in the Americans, a Chinese person, an Arab or a Roman whatever-- steals from another...they are guilty of stealing and will suffer punishment from G-d.
2)Jesus was born, died and was risen
3) A native, Chinese, Arab or Roman steals from another...they are guilty of stealing and will suffer punishment.
4) ? What's the difference or what changed?
But that's just me, I'll probably delete this. If we ever start a topic that answers questions like this, I will re-post.
Or people can send me a Private Message to explain. (private message is better, so that we won't deviate from the topic here).
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I love Rabbi Singer and his anti-missionary talks... I miss his show on Arutz Sheva... (he used to do a show with Tamar Yonah)..
He is VERY funny, he explains everything with such clarity!! I love Rabbi Singer too!!
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Based upon what others here have defined as the Antichrist.... Rand obviously wouldnt qualify... since he has very little following... and has no charisma whatsoever.... again... if you listed to him speak... you will know what I am talking about.
Compare this with Obama... who half the world loves.... and who is a strong orator... and obviously has a hidden evil agenda.
To me there is no comparison... assuming I understand this concept of an antichrist.
The same could have been said of Rand's idol, Adolf Sh*tler, before he came to power. He had zero social or speaking skills whatsoever as a young man--what did have was relentless determination and zeal to improve them as much as it took.
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I'm probably going to get asked to not post this, but one thing I never understood.
Judaism= Moshiach will not divine but a man who will fit certain qualifications and complete certain items that will change all the world for ever. Moshiach is not a suddenly heavenly revelation, but G-d's work to perfect the world. And we have to merit his coming. Z
Christianity- Jesus is the messiah who is also G-d and a Holy spirit, same person but different at the same time. And though him everyone is saved. Birth was a sudden revelation (ie a star over Bethlehem). What was done to merit him at that time? I mean historically speaking, what action caused his birth?
Ok so based on this:
1)Before Jesus was born, a native in the Americans, a Chinese person, an Arab or a Roman whatever-- steals from another...they are guilty of stealing and will suffer punishment from G-d.
2)Jesus was born, died and was risen
3) A native, Chinese, Arab or Roman steals from another...they are guilty of stealing and will suffer punishment.
4) ? What's the difference or what changed?
But that's just me, I'll probably delete this. If we ever start a topic that answers questions like this, I will re-post.
Or people can send me a Private Message to explain. (private message is better, so that we won't deviate from the topic here).
Why would any Christian think it appropriate to answer on the open forum? We should not be here to defend/discuss/debate the finer points of Christianity. This is a save Israel and America forum. I do hope you would have this discussion via pm. The whole thread is a bit unsettling.
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Exactly. Why would a Christian come on a Jewish Task Force forum to try to convince anything about Christianity? There are different places where it can be discussed at. If I say through Jesus's sacrifice, everyone has been cleansed and their sins are forgiven, If I say Christ in Christianity is referred to as the Son of God, sent by him to purge the sins of the whole world and through him God gave us his wisdom and offered us a chance to save our mortal soul, if I say Jesus is also called the messiah, a God in a Human form and His teachings had reached many ears and through his teachings many had been reconciled with God, if I say Jesus Christ lived as any ordinary man would have lived. He was born from a human woman (Mary) and received the emotions of humans. These human emotions may have greatly influenced his effort to save others and help them become closer to God.............the answer would be
"I don't believe in Jesus Christ".
Of course we know you don't believe in Jesus. So why do some JTFers (muman at first) constantly ask from Christian JTFers to prove anything about Christianity if our believes are different and everything I say from a Christian perspective would be false to those who don't believe in Jesus? Makes no sense to prove anything, this is not the place for that. Or you want from Christians to post links here about Christianity and again for the hundredth time bring dispute and division so the outcome would be locking this thread just like the Christmas tree and Pope thread, the same pattern will happen again.
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The same could have been said of Rand's idol, Adolf Sh*tler, before he came to power. He had zero social or speaking skills whatsoever as a young man--what did have was relentless determination and zeal to improve them as much as it took.
That's not true... Adolf (like Obama)... only able became popular BECAUSE of his speaking abilities. back in the 1920's the only reason NSDAP became a draw was because everyone wanted to go see Adolf speak... he was a freak show... like an evil loud Tony Robbins.. The exact same was true for Obama... There was absolutely nothing notable about Obama... but he could orate very well... which made him a big draw.... take a look at his DNC party speech in 2004... many who saw that knew he was going to be a threat after they saw him speak there.
Rand, on the other hand is horrific at speaking... no matter how much coaching he gets.... he just plain sucks... he is so bad... he makes his father seem like a good speaker....
To me.... Obama fits the Antichrist description to a 'T'.... Everyone loves him world-wide... including the self-hating jews...
Beleive me... I hate the fake conservatives as much as you do... and I hate the Paul's just as much as you do.... but Obama is the real threat here...
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Why would any Christian think it appropriate to answer on the open forum? We should not be here to defend/discuss/debate the finer points of Christianity. This is a save Israel and America forum. I do hope you would have this discussion via pm. The whole thread is a bit unsettling.
I kind of agree here.... I don't mind one bit when there are theological differences within the forum... but this thread is a bit inappropriate for a Jewish forum... not so much for me... but for the more religious Jews here. But maybe there should be a forum here for the Christians for theological discussions.
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I kind of agree here.... I don't mind one bit when there are theological differences within the forum... but this thread is a bit inappropriate for a Jewish forum... not so much for me... but for the more religious Jews here. But maybe there should be a forum here for the Christians for theological discussions.
I don't think this thread itself is inappropriate, for this forum it is unappropriate when there is unnecessary dispute and discord between Jews and Christians who support Israel....people outside of the forum who have read the threads like the Pope thread and Christams tree thread were able to see posts that "Christianity is a false religion", "Christians are off the track but will be right on the track if they renounce Jesus", and then many anti Christian links were posted..........Is that how Jews and Gentiles should cooperate? Not a good example. The outcome of that is only harmful to the forum. Then someone decides to mock JTF based on those anti-Christian posts which have inspired them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYTYHLlOy1A
It is very unfair to ask a Christian JTFer to prove their points about Christianity on a Jewish Task Force forum because this is not a place for that. Period.
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Please make no more confrontations and fights on this thread.
Please stop at this thread here and do not post anything further.
In this manner please preserve this thread as it contains all the information that has been collected as much as worldly possible regarding AntiChrist, 666, False Prophet, Red Dragon & Co.
This is to be irrespective of whether one believes in the existence of AntiChrist & Co. or not.
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syyuge, I will not just stop posting on this thread, but on this forum. It is known who was making confrontations on Pope thread and Christmas three thread and I am sick of it at least because it continues here since some people want to present Christianity as a false religion, alright, they can present that idea to other Christian JTFers, not to me. I thought things could change so I stayed, but no, it is all the same, over and over again.
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You know compared to other threads between Jews and Christians, my observation is that people have been much more respectful this time around. If there is anything that was ever said on this thread that was the most offensive, it was my comments.
Listen, my suggestion is if there is going to be any theological respectful meaning dialogue about our religions, then in the open is fine as long as there is no intention of offending the other side and in the end to agree to disagree.
It's another thing if turns into a debate. I'm not against debates. But in this particular instance where individuals might get hot headed and we are a forum where Jews and Christians are united, best to keep it in private messaging..but also recommend to talk to each other with mutual respect...(sort of how I did it when I first posted on this thread).
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You know compared to other threads between Jews and Christians, my observation is that people have been much more respectful this time around. If there is anything that was ever said on this thread that was the most offensive, it was my comments.
Listen, my suggestion is if there is going to be any theological respectful meaning dialogue about our religions, then in the open is fine as long as there is no intention of offending the other side and in the end to agree to disagree.
It's another thing if turns into a debate. I'm not against debates. But in this particular instance where individuals might get hot headed and we are a forum where Jews and Christians are united, best to keep it in private messaging..but also recommend to talk to each other with mutual respect...(sort of how I did it when I first posted on this thread).
I did not post in this thread for almost 3 days. I knew anything I said would be blown out of proportion. I saw your comments Dan and I was surprised a couple JTF members didn't jump down your throat for stating what you stated... On that point I agreed with you but refrained from posting for another day...
I agree that things in this thread have been mild compared to other threads.
One thing that non-Jews should understand about Jews is that we have been on the receiving end of a lot of grief from the various churches and Christian sects for thousands of years. Most of us don't know the 'good' church from the 'bad' church. Many Jews think that Christian Zionists are really only involved because they want to bring about armageddon (and all that involves)... But I do believe that there are many Christians who truly would like to see the Jewish scriptures fulfilled, and these Christian Zionists should be encouraged.
I believe it is possible so long as the Christians realize that Jews don't need Jesus, and we have a personal relationship with the Almighty himself. We do not need an intermediary, as Moses and the Prophets have told us. If Christianity works for them, wonderful... But Jews should not be shopping for another G-d as Hashem is a jealous G-d, and as his Torah promises the Jewish people will be lowered if we are lured to worship others. This is no comment on the beliefs of non-Jews, this is a comment on the need to keep the current Jews Jewish...
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syyuge, I will not just stop posting on this thread, but on this forum. It is known who was making confrontations on Pope thread and Christmas three thread and I am sick of it at least because it continues here since some people want to present Christianity as a false religion, alright, they can present that idea to other Christian JTFers, not to me. I thought things could change so I stayed, but no, it is all the same, over and over again.
Are you talking about me? I really wanted an answer, and I find Christian end time theories interesting.
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I also agree with Brain, there should be a Christian section.
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As a Christian member of this forum I think we, the Christian members, should be very respectful to the Jewish members and their religious beliefs. We should post nothing that could be interpreted as proselytizing. That was the point of my earlier post.
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I did not post in this thread for almost 3 days. I knew anything I said would be blown out of proportion. I saw your comments Dan and I was surprised a couple JTF members didn't jump down your throat for stating what you stated... On that point I agreed with you but refrained from posting for another day...
I agree that things in this thread have been mild compared to other threads.
One thing that non-Jews should understand about Jews is that we have been on the receiving end of a lot of grief from the various churches and Christian sects for thousands of years. Most of us don't know the 'good' church from the 'bad' church. Many Jews think that Christian Zionists are really only involved because they want to bring about armageddon (and all that involves)... But I do believe that there are many Christians who truly would like to see the Jewish scriptures fulfilled, and these Christian Zionists should be encouraged.
I believe it is possible so long as the Christians realize that Jews don't need Jesus, and we have a personal relationship with the Almighty himself. We do not need an intermediary, as Moses and the Prophets have told us. If Christianity works for them, wonderful... But Jews should not be shopping for another G-d as Hashem is a jealous G-d, and as his Torah promises the Jewish people will be lowered if we are lured to worship others. This is no comment on the beliefs of non-Jews, this is a comment on the need to keep the current Jews Jewish...
Muman, you were doing fine on this thread. There are some individuals who are still sensitive even when you speak..even when you try to be as respectful as you can. I don't blame them, but it's not your fault. So, don't get bent out of shape for this particular thread. And to our Christian friends here those who in the past who have jumped Muman's throat....a lot of you are doing well not to do it this time.
For those of you who are sensitive even to when he talks..don't be sensitive. We are all here as colleagues and friends and it never hurts to respond with a, "But I RESPECTFULLY disagree..."
The more we practice talking this way, the better and more viable we become in debating. Look at how Rabbi Kahane was able to keep his cool even with the most left wing self hating Jews AND the most anti semetic Muslims during debates.
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:crazy: Didn't you practice Christianity? You can answer all these questions for yourself. I think you might have another motive for asking.
OK isn't there two intermediaries? Trinity thing right? Where does it say that a holy ghost is part of G-d? I've read the new testament, and I'm pretty sure there aren't any trinities mentioned. Is it a duality? Also, do you believe the part about demonic possession is true? It's never been observed as a phenomenon. By Judiasm, by believing these little demons exist, you would be giving them power, if they did.
Do Christians think it's the last generation? The "this generation shall not pass until all things be fulfilled" thing? Do Christians say that everyone but them goes to hell if they sinned just once?
Do Christians really believe that the "devil" is the "prince of this world"? If you do, how do you know you're not referring to him when you say "lord"? Also, do you believe that the "devil" is the prince of the air? Is that why people say "may G-d strike me down if I'm lying" but really its just the devil who's the prince of that too so he controlls it and apparently everything else? What does G-d control in Christianity, if the devil controls the world and acts against G-d's apparent wishes?
The cannon has been reloaded. I've never witnessed these alleged Jew vs. other religion fights here. Go.
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When Christians produce a Meir Kahane with philosophy close to his, I'm game. I'm not here for Christian philosophy. It's really not hard to find everywhere else. You know what, when there are websites and organizations dedicated to the ideas of Rabbi Kahane, this site will be redundant, and then you can put all the things that everyone likes. Wiccan Zionists Force (WTF in french). Until then, it's not, this is the only place we have for this. You can have so many other places. It's not even like you'll "save" too many people by writing here rather than elsewhere.
Let's separate the forum by religions to promote unity. Seems legit. No sneaking to the Hindu page.
I don't care what you say, but I insult back. Unless you call me someone that's hurt my family.
What? I don't understand your post at all.
Plus...
I don't think we need separate anythings.
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Ephriam, can I call you Ephy?
Can I call you @%#$+*?
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The Christianity I practiced wasn't very Christiany, and I hated religion at the time largely because of it. Really trust me, you don't want to know. I ended up reading the book for myself. There is no Christian Talmud for my questions. Whenever I ask Muman he posts pretty little links and I get smarter. Also, rarely do I do anything for a single motive. What do you think mine is, entertain me.
Thank you 112... I post references to what I am trying to convey. There are a lot of great Jewish sources on the Internet. I use a 'Kosher Search Engine' for finding quotes which I post.
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@%#$+* I am not trying to segregate members, I just think it would be okay if they had their own section to discuss certain things if they're not trying to proselytize. I believe our Christian members are fair enough to catch anyone if they were doing that.
Also were you trying to say I'm a witch?
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Because this discussion has been the best one so far on this subject I will try to take time to type some interesting things from the book I have.
"In Zoroastrianism, the ancient religion of Persia, we have a good example of the development of a more radical cosmic dualism of conflict. The founder of the religion was the prophet Zoroaster, who according to Persian tradition, was born in the seventh century B.C.E....In any case, traditions relates how he was brought before the celestial assembly and was instructed by Ahura Mazda, later Ohrmazd, supreme deity and Wise Lord of Light in the true religion. The result of this encounter was Zarathustra's refor of ancient Persian polytheism, transforming it into a tempered form of monotheism centered on the worship of Ahura Mazda. What is significant about Zarathustra's prophetic revolution, however, is his dramatic portrayal of a cosmic struggle between the dual forces of good and evli, that reaches a climax in a titanic apocalypse at the end of time. According to Zarathustra, Ahura Mazda's supremacy and his Good or Holy Spirit-Spenta Mainyu are constantly challenged by Angra Mainyu, the Bad Spirit, and his satanic daevas, or evil spirits.....
Zarathustra did not himself teach a thoroughgoing dualism, for he had no doubt about the ultimate issue in the struggle between two powers.....
We know, however, that in the centuries just prior to the beginning of the Christian era, dualistic tendencies and historical pessimism found their way into Judaism. Philo, a Jewish philosopher of this time, speaks, although briefly, of God creating the world by means of two divine powers, one the creator of good and the other the creator of evil. According to the Rule of Qumran-one of the important scrolls from Dead Sea caves-two spirits were created by God, the Prince of Darkness and the Prince of Light, and together they rule the world. "
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Judaism rejects any dualism... I don't know what sects that quote was referring to, but they must have been the proto-christian sects...
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Judaism rejects any dualism... I don't know what sects that quote was referring to, but they must have been the proto-christian sects...
I do!
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Any Dual nature we observe is due to our own internal division. In Judaism we refer to the two forces as:
Yetzer HaRa - Inclination for Evil
Yetzer Tov - Inclination for Good
We also have a Talmudic saying that HaSatan, the Yetzer HaRa, and the Malach HaMeit (Angel of Death) are all the same force... This force was created by Hashem to provide the 'battlefield' in our own souls to determine if we are inclined for good or for evil (lahavdil)...
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Here this is expressed in a letter by the Lubavitch Rebbe...
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/cgi-bin/calendar?holiday=purim1415
By the Grace of G-d
28th of Adar, 5721
Brooklyn, N.Y.
Greeting and Blessing:
....The unity of the material and spiritual, to which I referred above, is also one of the features of Purim. For Haman's decree began with an attack on the spiritual freedom of the Jews, as our Sages explain the verse "But Mordechai did not bend his knee nor bow down to Haman," who wished to impose his idolatry upon all, and indeed succeeded, except for Mordechai. But then his decree extended to the physical annihilation of all the Jews, young and old, children and women.
That is why the miracle of Purim is observed both spiritually and materially, with light, and gladness, and joy and glory, which our Sages explained in a spiritual sense - Light that is the Torah, etc., and at the same with a Seudah, with wine, etc.
Indeed, the principle of unity is the essence of Judaism, since Abraham first proclaimed Monotheism in a world of idolatry, which came to full fruition at the Revelation at Mount Sinai. For true Monotheism as professed by us and as explained in the Jewish religion is not only the truth that there is only One G-d and none with Him, but that there nothing besides (Ein Od), that is the denial of the existence of any reality but G-d's, the denial of pluralism and dualism even the separation between the material and spiritual.
It is interesting to note that the more the physical sciences advance, the closer one approaches the principle of unity even in the world of matter. For, whereas formerly it was the accepted opinion that the plurality and compositeness in the material world can be reduced to some 100 odd basic elements and entities, and physical forces and laws were regarded as being separate and independent, not to mention the dichotomy between matter and energy. But in recent years, with the advancement of science, the basic elements themselves were reduced to several more elementary components of the atoms, viz. electrons, protons and neutrons, and even these were immediately qualified as not the ultimate blocks of matter, until the discovery was made that matter and energy are reducible and convertible one into the other.
It is well known that the Baal Shem Tov, the founder of Chassidus, taught, and the Alter Rebbe, the founder of Chabad, explained and amplified, that every detail in human experience is an instruction in man's service to His Maker. Thus, what has been said above about the advancement of science, exemplifies also the progress of human advancement in the service of G-d.
Man possesses two apparently contradictory elements, no less incompatible than the incompatibility of matter and spirit, the counterpart of which in the physical world is matter and energy. I refer to the Divine soul and animal soul, or, on a lower level, the Yetzer Tov and Yetzer Horah. But this incompatibility is evident only in the infantile stage of progress in Divine service, comparable to the plurality of elements and forces which were presumed to exist in physical Nature. But just as the appreciation of the underlying unity of Nature grew with the advancement of science, so does perfection in the Divine service lead to the realization of the essential unity in human nature, to the point where the Yetzer Tov and Yetzer Horah become one, through the transformation of the Yetzer Horah by and into the Yetzer Tov, for otherwise, of course, there can be no unity and harmony, since all that is holy and positive and creative could never make peace and be subservient to the unholy, negative and destructive. And in this attained unity the Jew proclaims, Hear, O Israel, G-d our G-d, G-d is one.
This is also what our Sages meant, when they succinctly said - as they often compress far-reaching ideas in a few concise words - that the words "And thou shalt love G-d, thy G-d, with all thy heart" which immediately follow Shema Yisroel, mean: with both your Yetzorim, with the Yetzer Horah, as with the Yetzer Tov.
With blessing
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The religion of the early Israelite tribes was no monotheistic. Before the ninth century B.C.E. the patriarchs and the kings of Israel did not worship a universal Creator god, but rather, a tribal god who was nevertheless conceived as unique in power and moral authority. Henotheism perhaps best describes the religion of Israel in both the Patriarchal and Mosaic periods. Henotheism refers to those religions that, while recognizing the reality of many gods, worship and believe in the asendancy of only one god. The early Israelites lived in a polytheistic environment, but from the time of Moses they considered their God Hashem as unique in power and authority....The answer Moses received is a most significiant event in the history of religions. God said to Moses, "I am who I am." And he said, " say I am (Hashem has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:4-14).
An interesting story is written about Pharaoh Amenhotep IV who ruled about 1375 B.C.E. Can't write it as my fingers are starting to hurt.
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http://halakhah.com/rst/nezikin/33a%20-%20Baba%20Basra%20-%202a-35b.pdf
From Bavra Basra 16a:
And Satan answered the Lord and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. But put forth thine hand now and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will renounce thee to thy face. And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold he is in thine hand: only spare his life. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord and smote Job, etc.4 R. Isaac said: Satan's torment was worse than that of Job; he was like a servant who is told by his master, 'Break the cask but do not let any of the wine spill.' Resh Lakish said: Satan, the evil prompter, and the Angel of Death are all one. He is called Satan, as it is written, And Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.5 He is called the evil prompter:6 [we know this because] it is written in another place, [Every imagination of the thoughts of his heart] was only evil continually,7 and it is written here [in connection with Satan] 'Only upon himself put not forth thine hand.8 The same is also the Angel of Death, since it says, Only spare his life,9 which shows that Job's life belonged to him.
See also : http://www.torah.org/learning/ravfrand/5767/vayishlach.html
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Any Dual nature we observe is due to our own internal division. In Judaism we refer to the two forces as:
Yetzer HaRa - Inclination for Evil
Yetzer Tov - Inclination for Good
We also have a Talmudic saying that HaSatan, the Yetzer HaRa, and the Malach HaMeit (Angel of Death) are all the same force... This force was created by Hashem to provide the 'battlefield' in our own souls to determine if we are inclined for good or for evil (lahavdil)...
An eternal struggle between good and evil. "Dualism perceives the world as constituted by or as living under the ordering of two coequal, and often coeternal, sacred powers."
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The religion of the early Israelite tribes was no monotheistic. Before the ninth century B.C.E. the patriarchs and the kings of Israel did not worship a universal Creator god, but rather, a tribal god who was nevertheless conceived as unique in power and moral authority. Henotheism perhaps best describes the religion of Israel in both the Patriarchal and Mosaic periods. Henotheism refers to those religions that, while recognizing the reality of many gods, worship and believe in the asendancy of only one god. The early Israelites lived in a polytheistic environment, but from the time of Moses they considered their God Hashem as unique in power and authority....The answer Moses received is a most significiant event in the history of religions. God said to Moses, "I am who I am." And he said, " say I am (Hashem has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:4-14).
An interesting story is written about Pharaoh Amenhotep IV who ruled about 1375 B.C.E. Can't write it as my fingers are starting to hurt.
Is this your belief or did you learn this from a source? According to Jewish belief we believe that Hashem, the G-d of Israel, alone has absolute power over, and was the creator of, the universe...
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An eternal struggle between good and evil. "Dualism perceives the world as constituted by or as living under the ordering of two coequal, and often coeternal, sacred powers."
But there is no "Good god" or "Bad god"... There is only One G-d, and he is the creator of everything we perceive. Even the labels 'good' and 'bad' are only based on our perceptions of what we think is good or evil. Humans do not have the scope of vision through time like Hashem has.
The only place where this struggle exists is in our G-d given souls.
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Is this your belief or did you learn this from a source? According to Jewish belief we believe that Hashem, the G-d of Israel, alone has absolute power over, and was the creator of, the universe...
No it is not his belief, and don't know why it was brought up... The Church is against it!
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Abraham (Avraham Avinu), according to our Torah, was the father of Monotheism. He rejected idolatry and was favored in the eyes of Hashem, and his descendants who would become the Jewish people would inherit the land G-d promised him.
No doubt the Jewish people through history flirted with idolatry time and time again. But as the Tanakh demonstrates Hashem views this as if it is infidelity, and he will forgive us. This is clearly evident if one reads the 'Song of Songs'...
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But there is no "Good god" or "Bad god"... There is only One G-d, and he is the creator of everything we perceive. Even the labels 'good' and 'bad' are only based on our perceptions of what we think is good or evil. Humans do not have the scope of vision through time like Hashem has.
The only place where this struggle exists is in our G-d given souls.
It is one G-d, you choose good or evil... G-d has different names and elements...
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Get the stakes and start the fire!
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It is one G-d, you choose good or evil... G-d have different names and elements...
Yes, but these 'different names' do not represent any differences in G-d, only in how we perceive his relationship with us.
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Yes, but these 'different names' do not represent any differences in G-d, only in how we perceive his relationship with us.
Yes, I agree!
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What is the pic, is it masada?
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All you and multiple members do is try to start fights ....
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Christians are not dualists. We teach that G-d allows the devil to have power here on earth in order to test us.
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I don't think I was challenging anyone to prove their beliefs. I was stating how in to me, nothing has changed in the world in the past thousand years and invited anyone interested in the theory to send me a private message about this.
Thanks to the one who send me the message :-), for your willingness to explain. I just have always had an inquisitive mind.
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I also agree with Brain, there should be a Christian section.
I really don't see the need for a Christian section in fact I see it as a thing that would only cause further division... In most cases Gentile members here on the forum do not start threads like this but respond to issues presented about their own religions in order to correct or defend what they see as a misrepresentation... Having a platform here on the forum in order to start threads concerning Christianity or any other religion would be a tool for endless proselytizing and problems by people coming to our forum to undermine it.
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Three words, Barack Husssein Obama.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqgvAvjOB6E
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Christians are not dualists. We teach that G-d allows the devil to have power here on earth in order to test us.
Agreed
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I really don't see the need for a Christian section in fact I see it as a thing that would only cause further division... In most cases Gentile members here on the forum do not start threads like this but respond to issues presented about their own religions in order to correct or defend what they see as a misrepresentation... Having a platform here on the forum in order to start threads concerning Christianity or any other religion would be a tool for endless proselytizing and problems by people coming to our forum to undermine it.
It would probably cause a lot more problems than it would solve and get otherwise good people in trouble saying things they'd be sorry they posted after the fact so I agree that we don't need that section here.
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I don't think Obama's smart enough to be the anti-Christ. He is very evil though.
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The religion of the early Israelite tribes was no monotheistic. Before the ninth century B.C.E. the patriarchs and the kings of Israel did not worship a universal Creator god, but rather, a tribal god who was nevertheless conceived as unique in power and moral authority. Henotheism perhaps best describes the religion of Israel in both the Patriarchal and Mosaic periods. Henotheism refers to those religions that, while recognizing the reality of many gods, worship and believe in the asendancy of only one god. The early Israelites lived in a polytheistic environment, but from the time of Moses they considered their God Hashem as unique in power and authority....The answer Moses received is a most significiant event in the history of religions. God said to Moses, "I am who I am." And he said, " say I am (Hashem has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:4-14).
An interesting story is written about Pharaoh Amenhotep IV who ruled about 1375 B.C.E. Can't write it as my fingers are starting to hurt.
Off topic therefore :spam:
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Christians: Do you believe in 1. Demons, 2. Demonic possession, 3. a devil that controls the world, and if so, who does he use to control the world? 4. If the devil is in hell or in the world or both, 5. That he is going to posses someone and take over the world
I don't know all Christian denominations views, but here is the source from Christian Orthodox perspective about demons, evil, Satan... it is too long to read, sorry:
The Doctrine of Evil
To understand the Orthodox view and practice of exorcism, one must know the Orthodox presuppositions of evil and its doctrine of Satan. The patristic evidence points to the fact that the cause of evil in the world is the devil. The devil was created by God as an angel, who was free, and as a free agent chose to oppose the plan of God. That is, the devil is a fallen angel. Satan is not evil by nature, but by will and action. In Satan there is no truth whatsoever; he is absolute falsehood and deception. Satan is not just a negation or deprivation of good, but a positive force with free will that always chooses evil. The devil has the ability to recognize divine power, as in the incident of recognizing Christ as the Son of God (Matt. 4:1-11; Luke 4:1-3). Satan has under his leadership legions and invisible powers, with their own "satanic teachings." The devil and evil spirits know that God exists and recognize true and devoted Christians, but pious Christians discern the plans of the devil. The devil, however, constantly employs every method of deception to enslave man to satanic forces and causes rebellion against God. He is the cause of corruption and disorder, a parasitic power in the world that will ultimately be destroyed by the power of God in the "last days." Because there is no compromise between God and the devil, the struggle will continue until the end.
The Orthodox doctrine of God is that He is eternal, uncreated and incorporeal. All other creatures, both visible and invisible, were created by God as free. The power of the devil will ultimately be destroyed by the resurrection of the dead and the renewal of creation. Salvation from all evil will be attained by obedience to God and His plan. This world is a battleground between the acceptance of good and evil. It must be pointed out that the world as the creation of God is not evil. What is evil is the satanic power, destroyed by the power of the cross and the resurrection of Christ.
The Orthodox Tradition of Exorcising
After examining the doctrine of Satan in the Orthodox Church, it is imperative to proceed to the method of repelling and exorcising the evil powers. In the New Testament, Christ sent out His apostles to heal and to "cast out devils" (Matt. 10:8, Luke 10:17-20). Christ Himself often expels demons from the possessed (Mark 1:23-27; Luke 4:33-35, 9:43; Matt. 10:1; Mark 16:17; Matt. 7:22). The New Testament, however, rejected popular uses of magic incantations and rites to expel the satanic powers from people, because they took advantage of superstitious religiosity (Acts 19:13).
In the name of Christ, one is able to cast out demons and to destroy the evil powers. The Fathers of the Church accepted this doctrine and expanded on it. Justin Martyr (Apology 85, 2) says that in the name of Christ, the Son of God who was crucified and rose again, every demon that is exorcised is defeated and submits (Library of the Greek Fathers and Church Writers, Athens: Apostolike Diakonia 1955, Vol. 3, pp. 288-89). The satanic powers are destroyed through the power of the cross and the name of Christ. Objects possessed by demons, when exorcised in the name of the living God, are freed from the possession of evil. The patristic evidence is abundant in the belief in possession and expulsion of the devil by the power of the word of God.
The demonic possession of people objects, was accepted by the Orthodox Church today in the Sacrament of Baptism, in exorcising satanic powers, and in exorcising the devil in the case of a possessed person. In the early Church exorcisms were performed by a person especially trained and appointed to pray to drive out evil from those about to be baptized. Since the fourth century the place of the exorcist, as well as other functions and ministries, have been taken over by the priest. The exorcisms are prayers that invoke God to expel evil spirits. The priest prays to expel all evil, the spirit of error, of idolatry, of covetousness, of Iying and every impure act that arises from the teachings of the devil. The renunciation of the devil in baptism is used in every baptism that is performed in the Orthodox Church.
Orthodox Prayers of Exorcism
All the Orthodox prayer books include prayers of exorcism used by priests to fight the power of evil. The Orthodox Book of Prayers (Euchologion To Mega) includes three prayers of exorcism by Saint Basil and four by Saint John Chrysostom. They are read "for those who suffer from demonic possessions and every other malady." Through these prayers, the devil is exorcised (renounced) "in the name of God Almighty and the Lord Jesus Christ, and commanded to come out of the victim, who is liberated and redeemed by the eternal God from the energies (powers) of the impure spirits. The great ills that humanity suffers are attributed to the devil and demonic power."
From the Orthodox theological point of view, the following can be considered exorcists:
Christ is the exorcist par excellence for it is He who won the victory over the power of the devil.
Priests in the performance of the holy sacraments and in preaching the word of God follow Christ's example.
All Orthodox Christians are exorcists as they struggle against personal sin and social evil. In fact, "the whole Church, past, present and future, has the task of an exorcist to banish sin, evil, injustice, spiritual death, the devil from the life of humanity." Archbishop Iakovos, in a sermon at the Sage Chapel, Cornell University, spoke on exorcism in the following manner: "Both healing and exorcising are ministered through prayers, which spring from faith in God and from love for man.... All the prayers of healing and exorcism, composed by the Fathers of the Church and in use since the third century, begin with the solemn declaration: In Thy Name, O Lord.' " (Exorcism and Exorcists in the Greek Orthodox Tradition, March 10, 1974.)
EVIL SPIRITS ARE EXISTING
INDIVIDUAL SPIRITUAL BEINGS
Evil spirits are angels who became evil by their own free wills. As the prayers of the Church constantly teach us, angels are bodiless spirits. Because of our carnal condition, we are unable to see evil spirits but, "we have a more certain word of prophecy, and you will do well to pay attention to it as to a light which shines in a dark place" (2Pt.1:19). We cannot physically see the demons, but we can learn enough about them to defeat them. The source of this knowledge is the Holy Scripture which is lived, verified and made manifest in the life of the Holy Orthodox Church, and the experiences and teachings of our holy, God bearing fathers. From the beginning of the Holy Scripture, we encounter Satan as a truly existent individual. According to the testimony of the Book of Genesis, Satan entered into a serpent and convinced our first ancestors to violate God's commandment (Gn.3:119). The Holy Prophet Solomon affirms that the devil was the original cause of the sin which ruined all mankind: "God created man to be immortal and made him an image of His own eternity. Through envy of the devil, however, death came into the world" (Wis.2:2324). For this reason, Satan is called a "murderer from the beginning" (Jn.8:44).
From the book of Deuteronomy, we see that Moses was clearly aware of the existence of evil spirits. Enumerating the sins of the Hebrews, Moses says that they "sacrificed to demons, not to God" (Dt.32:17), that is, as St John Chrysostom explains, they sacrificed to idols in which demons dwelt. The devil tormented the Righteous Job (Jb.1:622); instigated David to "number Israel" (1Chr.21:1) and an evil spirit possessed Saul (1Ki. 16:1415 Orthodox Bible).
In the book of Kings (3Ki.22:1923 Orthodox Bible) and in the book of the Prophet Zachary (3:12), the evil one is accorded the personal attributes of envy, falsehood, cunning and wickedness. In the first case, he wanted to invite the King of Israel to violate God's commandment, promising to become a spirit of falsehood in the mouths of prophets and, in the second instance, he was calumniating the people of Israel. The holy evangelist John the Theologian binds the truth of the existence of evil spirits with the coming of the Son of God into the world. "He that sins is of the devil, for the devil sins from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work" (1Jn.3:8; cp Mt.12: 2429; Js.2:19). From these words, it follows that a renunciation of belief in the devil leads us to the renunciation of the truth of the fall and, consequently, also a renunciation of the mystery of redemption. Indeed, why would Christ have come to earth if the evil one did not exist? In thus renouncing the mystery of redemption, we must reject all of Christianity. The whole Gospel history testifies that the Lord Jesus Christ came to earth in order to destroy the works of the devil, to "deliver us from the evil one."
Christ the Saviour Himself said that Satan desired to sift the apostles like wheat (Lk.22:31). In other places of the Holy Gospel, we see cited the words of Jesus Christ about the existence of a whole kingdom of evil spirits, ruled by Satan, the malicious prince of this kingdom (Mt.12:2428), and Christ calls the evil one the "prince of this world" (Jn.12:31). How clearly did our Saviour teach about the existence of evil spirits when He healed those possessed by demons. Never did He suggest that possession by demons was a natural disorder (Mt.4:24;8:16; Mk.1:34;7:29-30, for example). The apostles, following Christ, also taught about the perniciousness of evil spirits and their ruinous influence on mankind. According to the Apostle, Christ took on our flesh so that, by His own death, He would deliver us from the power of "him who had the power of death, that is, the devil" (Hb.2:14). The apostles also revealed that the demons are intelligent spirits (Js.3:15) but evil (Acts 19:13). Being numerous (Rev.12:7-8) they form their own dominion, at the head of which is Satan (Rm.16:20). Finally, in the "Lord's Prayer," He quite clearly taught us to pray, "deliver us from the evil one," asking for deliverance from the power and influence of a real, personal being.
The fact that evil spirits are real, individual beings is revealed to us through the lives of the great ascetics who, being illumined by the Holy Spirit, saw the true character of the evil spirits, fought with and, by their lofty, moral lives, defeated the demons and gained power to cast them out of others. This understanding is also taught by the Church's divine services and prayers. Thus, for example, in the eighth prayer before sleep, the Orthodox Christian prays to God: "Deliver me from the besetting presence of the devil.... Snatch me from the jaws of the pernicious serpent." In the Mystery of Holy Baptism, the godparents are required; on behalf of an infant being baptized, to "renounce the devil and all his works and all his pride."
The Holy Scripture, therefore, clearly teaches that the devil exists as an individual spirit. And Saint John of Kronstadt says, "Stubborn unbelief in the existence of evil spirits is in itself actual demonic possession, for it bids defiance of Divine revelation; he who denies the evil spirits is a person already swallowed up by the devil and sitting in darkness and the shadow of death, in no condition to behold the Sun of Truth."
Therefore, our Saviour commands us to pray, specifically, "and deliver us from the evil-one," and not "deliver us from evil."
CHARACTERISTICS
OF EVIL SPIRITS
According to the prayers of the Church, evil spirits are bodiless, and immaterial created spirits. The Holy Scripture reveals to us what characteristics they possess. Evil spirits have mind and will (2Cor.2:11). They know God, and this knowledge fills them with fear: "You believe that there is one God...the demons also believe and tremble," writes Apostle James (2:19). More than once, evil angels confessed Christ the Saviour as the Son of God (Mt.8:29; Mk.1:24, for example).
Evil spirits know themselves, of course, for if the spirit of man is conscious of what it knows, then certainly the same must be said of evil spirits. Evil spirits know the condition of the present world, as we see in the Book of the Prophet Job. The evil one traversed the world and observed all people, and spoke of this to the Lord. The Lord did not refute these observations as false (Job 1:7-12), though clearly, the devil did not know the soul of Job, just as he and his demons can never approach the nature of our souls and know them. He can only judge from our deeds, actions and inclinations what the condition of our soul is, as the holy fathers tell us. St John Cassian says, "But the demons cannot possibly come near to those thoughts which have not yet come forth from the inmost recesses of the soul. And the thoughts too, which they suggest, whether they are actually or in a kind of way embraced, are discovered by them not from the nature of the soul itself, i.e., that inner inclination which lies concealed so to speak in the very marrow, but from the motions and signs given by the outward man." (First Conference of Abba Sereneus, para. 15).
St John the Solitary also tells us, "The devil cannot touch the nature of the soul, nor can he draw nigh it at all to harm it. . ."The devil does not touch or see the soul, but the members of the body only...and by harming one of the members he disturbs the thoughts which are active within them. For indeed, if he could draw nigh the soul so as to harm it, then he would also be able to harm it after it departed from the body, but this he would have to do while being unable to see it and having no power over it, because his power extends only as far as the body." (Sixth Dialogue With Thomasos).
The fallen spirits know something of future events, but not from real knowledge or prophecy. They can surmise what will occur when it is going to take place from definite, unchanging causes. The general future is known to them from God's revelation (3Ki.22:21-22 Orthodox Bible), and also from the observation of man's character. Once, a demon drew nigh to St Andrew the Fool and told him of the moral disorder of Christians in the last days. "In those days," the demon said, "people will be more evil than I am, and little children will surpass old people in wickedness. Then, I will not teach people anything; they themselves will fulfil my will." St Andrew responded: "How do you know this, for a demon does not know anything by prophecy or forevision?" To this, the demon replied: "Our father, Satan, conjectures these things and passes it on to us."
Though they have a mind, evil spirits have distorted it so much that, instead of the basic quality of the mind striving toward truth the main characteristic of the demon's mind is hatred toward truth. For this reason, the evil one is called "father of lies" in the Gospel (Jn.8:44) and "deceiver" in the Revelation (12:9). Having hardened their will in unyielding evil, the demons now direct their activity toward evil alone, but demons also have a certain freedom, because they can select one evil out of many. Instead of love, the being of the devil is filled with irreconcilable enmity toward God and His works. We have a constant enemy in the evil one, and therefore Apostle Paul advises Christians to array themselves in complete armour for struggle against the devil (Eph.6:1217), and Christ commanded us to pray constantly to God, our Father, "...deliver us from the evil one."
THE DWELLING PLACE
OF EVIL SPIRITS
While Satan was an obedient angel of God, he dwelt in heaven. He exalted himself higher than all spirits and thought to become an independent power. Because of this, the Lord cast him down from heaven (Lk.10:18), together with the angels which had followed him in his opposition to the Creator (Eph.6: 12; Rev.12:7). Since then, the abode of the devil has been the "abyss" or "space," which, in common usage, is called "the air." The correctness of this idea is evident from the Holy Scripture. In the Book of Job, the devil himself testifies that he went round about the whole world, passing through the air (Jb.1:7;2:2). The Holy Apostle Paul speaks of the fallen spirits dwelling in the air: "For we struggle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places" (Eph.6:12). Here is how St Athanasios the Great explains this place: "The devil, the enemy of our race, having fallen from heaven, roams in the space of this lower air where, ruling over other demons..., with their cooperation, he deceives people with visions and strives to hinder those who struggle higher, of which Apostle Paul says, `According to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience' (Eph.2:2)". In the interpretation of Psalm 41, St John Chrysostom says, "How many demons are borne in this air? How many adverse powers? If God were to allow them to show their countenances, we would all be driven insane" (Works, Vol. 1, p. 722). St Antony the Great says simply that "demons are borne in the air" (Works, Pt. 3, p. 22). If evil spirits fill the air, then it is clear that they surround us from all sides. St Theophan the Recluse says of this: "The usual form of translation and understanding of the word `sky' signifies that spirits fly in the air, and just as air embraces us everywhere, so also do the spirits of malice draw near us, like mosquitoes in a damp place" (Interpretation of the Epistle to Ephesians, p. 412). Thus, in the Lord's Prayer, we are taught to pray, "...deliver us from the evil one."
THE INFLUENCE
OF EVIL SPIRITS
We do not speak so much of the power of evil spirits as of their influence. For, the power which demons do have is in their ability to lead man into delusion. Demons are deceivers and tricksters. St Antony the Great says of them: "We ought not to fear the demons or even Satan himself, `for he is a liar' and does not speak a word of truth...and his followers the demons are in the same condition, like serpents and scorpions to be trodden underfoot by us Christians...and let us not fear his visions seeing that they themselves are deceptive. Doubtless they appear, but in a moment disappear again, hurting none of the faithful...Wherefore it is unfitting that we should fear them on account of these things; for through the Grace of Christ all their practices are in vain....
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All you and multiple members do is try to start fights ....
You Ephraim started fights also with some of your posts, maybe not on this thread but on some past ones you surely have.
112 asked a question, I just provided some sources for it, that is the whole aim of my today's post, answering to a question.
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You Ephraim started fights also with some of your posts, maybe not on this thread but on some past ones you surely have.
112 asked a question, I just provided some sources for it, that is the whole aim of my today's post, answering to a question.
What about you constantly making a bigger deal out of things than they really are?
What about you and another member saying you worship Christmas trees, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of.
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I see certain things from a couple of JTFers were addressed to me, not directly but it was said that I am "too sensitive and defensive" when it is being discussed about religion and I would like to clarify some things in a positive manner here.
As I remember I was falsely accused in previous threads that I have supposedly said "only Christians will be saved, non Christians will go to hell, only Christians will be this, be that........". Completely false accusations. I would like to explain that is absolutely NOT what I have said nor what I was being thought throughout my life. Yes I was taking some things to my heart, for instance when there were posts from other members which allegedly tell about the fact that only Jews will go to Heaven, and not Gentiles.
During my life I was thought something very different than that, and that is the salvation can be found outside of Christianity too, so we can all be saved.
It is hard sometimes to point out the teachings of one religion without being misunderstood as someone that is trying to oppose to people of other religion since the teachings of different religions are often contradictory. We all believe unhesitatingly that our own religion is the only religion leading us to God's truth, so it is often not easy to hold discussions in good faith when each of us is firmly convinced that the truth is in our own religion.
Besides Islam I believe people of various faiths should coexist and interact in peace. We should all seek for mutual understanding, in depth, of the teachings of religions about which we engage in dialogue. I don't think it is right when some people say all Churches are "against Jews", that is false. In spite of historical conflicts, ways of peaceful coexistence are possible today, but I guess some people like to be stuck in differences and divisions forever........
At certain times a major difficulty is to achieve mutual understanding of each other's faith.
Classifying almost every Church as "enemy of Jews" is defective and wrong especially with no rational and empirical knowledge of what today's Churches teach. Many of the conflicts that arise here between the different religions are due to misinformation and misunderstanding.
There can be salvations of all people, Christians or non-Christians. Those who think otherwise, they just falsely claim "they are trying to understand different religions" because they are doing something quite opposite from what they are saying.
As far as who will "go to Hell" and who will not, I will point out my views from my own religion, which are the salvation of all people, including non-Christians depends on the great goodness and mercy of the Omniscient and Omnipotent God who desires the salvation of all people. Those who live in faith and virtue, though outside the Church, receive God's loving grace and salvation.
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What about you constantly making a bigger deal out of things than they really are?
What about you and another member saying you worship Christmas trees, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of.
You lying *******! I never said I worship a tree! Liar! The dumbest thing I have ever heard is you saying "Christians are on the wrong path", saying if we renounce Jesus we will be on the right path. Read my post before this one, try to educate yourself Ephraim, you are not doing a good job at it so far.
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You lying *******! I never said I worship a tree! Liar! The dumbest thing I have ever heard is you saying "Christians are on the wrong path", saying if we renounce Jesus we will be on the right path. Read my post before this one, try to educate yourself Ephraim, you are not doing a good job at it so far.
Personally I don't let things like the tree and idol worship accusations bother me... I actually get a laugh out of them some times... Let people believe what they like... It actually makes little or no difference in the larger picture... Christians are comfortable that they will eventually get to their final reward and Jews should feel they will get to theirs... What each think about the other makes little difference in the end.
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Personally I don't let things like the tree and idol worship accusations bother me... I actually get a laugh out of them some times... Let people believe what they like... It actually makes little or no difference in the larger picture... Christians are comfortable that they will eventually get to their final reward and Jews should feel they will get to theirs... What each think about the other makes little difference in the end.
I will try to think that way too, very good points cjd.
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1. Demons
yes
2. Demonic possession
yes
3. a devil that controls the world, and if so, who does he use to control the world?
Not really. God is much more powerful and is in control of everything but allows Satan and demons to do things sometimes.
4. If the devil is in hell or in the world or both,
I think the earth.
5. That he is going to posses someone and take over the world
Yes. But God will defeat him.
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What about the Holy Aborigine that has not been saved or has not heard of the Messiah? Can he not feel the Holy Spirit?
That's something a lot of people ask about and I don't really have a good answer to that right now.
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Can someone inform us, as to before and during the WW-II how many percentage of christians believed or felt that Schitler was the antichrist. The answer if any may speak volumes.
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Can someone inform us, as to before and during the WW-II how many percentage of christians believed or felt that Schitler was the antichrist. The answer if any may speak volumes.
I don't know but he did seem to meet many of the criteria for such. I think he came very close. He even wanted to implement a one world system and a thousand year reich. It turned out that he wasn't actually THE antichrist but I think that if you consider somebody like him, and make them WORSE then you'll see what they will be like.
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Can someone inform us, as to before and during the WW-II how many percentage of christians believed or felt that Schitler was the antichrist. The answer if any may speak volumes.
I don't know but he did seem to meet many of the criteria for such. I think he came very close. He even wanted to implement a one world system and a thousand year reich. It turned out that he wasn't actually THE antichrist but I think that if you consider somebody like him, and make them WORSE then you'll see what they will be like.
Schitler was actually a prelude to the antichrist. The Divine Force played a dry run to let all the people understand that if a dry run with absence of the nukes can be so devastating, then what will be the reality to come. To justify this only after the elimination of the Schitler, the Red Dragon and the Small Beast (666) were thrown to the Earth and so the muslamics got strengthened.
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Of course Jesus is currently boiling in [censored]. (Gittin 57a)
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Of course Jesus is currently boiling in [censored]. (Gittin 57a)
Why didn't you post from your original JTF account, this one:
SayNo2Islam Full JTFer
Offline
Posts: 238 (0.408 per day)
Personal Text: Time to Clean this Out!Gender:
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Schitler was actually a prelude to the antichrist. The Divine Force played a dry run to let all the people understand that if a dry run with absence of the nukes can be so devastating, then what will be the reality to come. To justify this only after the elimination of the Schitler, the Red Dragon and the Small Beast (666) were thrown to the Earth and so the muslamics got strengthened.
This is silly.... So UnJewish... I would rather not go down this road.... Many churches did little or nothing during the Shoah.
What really matters is the Jewish perspective on the Shoah. Most of the Christian world said little, did little, and had much more culpability in allowing it to happen.
These so-called prophecies should be saved for a forum where it will not offend Jews.
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Judaism doesn't believe in 'fallen angels' or any of that foolishness. Satan is an angel who was created with a purpose. As opposed to what Lady 10 posted about her churches position I would like to clarify that the Jewish belief is that angels do not have 'free will' in the way we understand it. Angels are like robots who do the will of Hashem, and Satan is just another angel created by Hashem in order to create temptation in the human soul. No angels 'fell to earth' and that entire scripture is just another mistranslation of the Hebrew text.
Maybe there should be another forum for just Christian discussion because I see that a Jew reading this forum might think we believe some of these so-called prophecies (which we obviously do not) and our theology is coming from a 180 degree perspective. Fallen angels, angels defying the will of G-d, beasts and anti-messiahs.... All not Jewish...
http://www.torah.org/qanda/seequanda.php?id=793
In the Jewish tradition, Satan isn't a "fallen" angel; he's an angel whose occupation is tempting men to sin, as illustrated in Ch.1 of Job. "Satan" means something like "adversary"; it's used in that generic sense in Num.22:22. Satan's proper name is Samael. He guided the serpent in the Garden of Eden to tempt Eve. The angels who fell in Enoch's time were tempted by human women, as told in Gen.6:1-4. Their leaders were Uza (or Shemchazai) and Azael; the names Uza and Azael may be related to the Azazel of Lev.Ch.16. The Midrash (end of Devarim Rabbah) says that Uza and Azael were punished by being suspended between heaven and earth.
RE: The Nephalim (Fallen Ones) see http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-category/jewish-history/page/10/?p=919
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The "antichrist" is actually G-d Himself. Obviously Hashem is anti-Christ, because Jesus has been boiling in [censored] since he died. (Gittin 57a) If Hashem wasn't anti-Christ Jesus wouldn't still be boiling in [censored] right now.
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The "antichrist" is actually G-d Himself. Obviously Hashem is anti-Christ, because Jesus has been boiling in [censored] since he died. (Gittin 57a) If Hashem wasn't anti-Christ Jesus wouldn't still be boiling in [censored] right now.
Why do you persist in making such statements. We are not seeking to provoke anyone, and your statements in an open forum are very provoking. I don't fully believe that this is what the Talmud meant in the section you refer to. Regardless it is not helpful to interpret this as such on JTF and it will most likely get you banned again.
Nikmatdam... You are a persistent fellow... You were trolling this forum when I first joined...
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Why do you persist in making such statements. We are not seeking to provoke anyone, and your statements in an open forum are very provoking. I don't fully believe that this is what the Talmud meant in the section you refer to. Regardless it is not helpful to interpret this as such on JTF and it will most likely get you banned again.
Nikmatdam... You are a persistent fellow... You were trolling this forum when I first joined...
As a Lubavitcher, you are nothing but a Christian yourself.
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As a Lubavitcher, you are nothing but a Christian yourself.
I am not a 'Lubavitcher'... I am a Jew who is involved with Chabad... But that aside, your sentiment is retarded..
You are no Jew, you are a fool...
You are a troll on JTF and that is all you will ever be... Now go crawl back under the rock you came from..
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Of course Jesus is currently boiling in [censored]. (Gittin 57a)
Did you introduce yourself?
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Sally613=nikmatdam2=same copy paste avigdor miller person
Do not acknowledge him. Just let us moderators know when he comes in posting.
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Judaism doesn't believe in 'fallen angels' or any of that foolishness.
Indeed. If people look at the morning star of the "dawn" that was quoted in the Bible, it is actually referring to King Nebuchadnezzar not the so called "Lucifer" as some people later said.
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Indeed. If people look at the morning star of the "dawn" that was quoted in the Bible, it is actually referring to King Nebuchadnezzar not the so called "Lucifer" as some people later said.
Indeed IsraeliHeart, you once again demonstrate excellent knowledge of Jewish sources...
Here is what you stated explained by a Rabbi at JewishAnswers:
http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-category/jewish-texts/the-prophets-and-writings/?p=3649
Gap Theory and Lucifer
Question: Does the 974 generations of man before creation (or remaking of earth) add any validity to the gap theory of creation? The theory that Lucifer was cast out of heaven onto the earth and G-d then destroyed the earth due to the corruption and millions or billions of years past between Genesis 1:1 and verse two and the remaking of earth and creation of man.
Answer: The idea of 974 generations before Adam is figurative and speculative. It is based on a thousand generations from the beginning to Moses. We know there were 26 generations from Adam to Moses and subtracting 26 from 1000 leaves 974 pre-generations.
There is no proper Scriptural support for this that I have ever seen. Understand that many things in Scripture are not literal but meant to convey a variety of messages via language arts, such as euphemism, analogy, and so forth.
If G-d wanted us to know the age of the world with certainty, he would have told us. Were the first few days 24-hour days, or billion-year days? The only thing I know for sure is that scientists make a lot of mistakes for a variety of reasons that I won’t go into here.
The gap theory, like evolutions punctuated equilibrium, is a man-made creation to invent a way things happened without biting the bullet and saying, “we don’t know.”
You mention Lucifer. You won’t find him anywhere in G-d’s Hebrew Scriptures, the name is not there. It too is a man-made invention based on Isaiah 14:12. In that Verse we read about a morning star “Hailail.” People woke up some mornings and saw all the stars had gone away except one, and the legend of the fallen angel Lucifer grew up from the one.
In actuality, Hailail was not a star at all, but the planet Venus, which sometimes remains visible in the morning hours. There is no fallen angel there and the idea of Lucifer stemming from this Verse is false. The Scriptural subject of Hailail is metaphorical and has to do with the fall of Babylon…again, not an angel – “Nebuchadnezzar, you were a bright star in the world, and see how you have fallen”
Regards,
Eliahu Levenson
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Book of Job.
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Nikmatdam did not make trolling posts like these. He posted about his crazy conspiracy theories. This is Ralph, Homo, Jr. or Anus-T.
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Orthodox caste Hinduism places emphasis on the performance of duties associated with one's class and stage of life. These are formulated in ancient sacred codes of behavior, especially in a series of law books called the Dharma Shastras. The most ancient and authoritative of these texts is the Manu Smriti, or Code of Manu. In the practice of duty-dharma, as it is called-is the heart of of orthodox Hinduism, and, it is believed, will lead to a happy and moral life. Some also would see the fulfilling of dharma as leading to moksha, or liberation. In the Vedas, the word dharma stood for and eternally fixed moral law that underlines the universe. In the later law books, dharma came to rever specifically to the duties and obligations of social life. In the Code of Manu, for example, these duties are elaborately formulated in terms of two social patters,: duties of the four classes, or castes (varnas), and the duties of four stages (ashramas) of life. Hinduism looks on social life as a complex and fragile organism. And so, Hinduism teaches that the functions of four classes-the Brahmans (priests), Kshatriyas (warriors), Vaishyas (farmers and producers), and Shudras (laborers)-is essential to the perfect ordering of society.
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One should not, it is written, impose usury on loans to the poor since all debts were to be canceled (Deuteronomy 15:1-2).
By the end of the first century C.E., the written books of the Torah were canonized and became the Hebrew Bible as we know it today....
New interpretations, explanations, and commentaries on the Torah of Moses were required. An example of the need for such interpretation is the relief of debts referred earlier. In the first century C.E. Jewish commercial life life in Palestine was expanding. The command regarding the relief of debts understandably aroused great uncertainty concerning commercial transactions. Therefore, a rule was enacted by a famous rabbi named Hillel, allowing for a declaration, made before a court of law by a creditor, guaranteeing the the loan in question would no be relieved under the terms of the seventh-year law.
Not knowing Judaism so well, I read this and ask my self how was one man able to change what God required of Jews?
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Indeed IsraeliHeart, you once again demonstrate excellent knowledge of Jewish sources...
Here is what you stated explained by a Rabbi at JewishAnswers:
Thank you so much for including the explanation. A great read! Very informative.
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Starts small becomes successful at whatever he does.
Arrogant and boastful, sardonic
Will cause astounding devesdation
Good orator, persuasive
Will become strong, but not by his own power.
Come from a military and economic world power
Stern faced King
Master of Intrigue and deception, will be called the Messiah
Will be a king different from those who preceeded him. (Will not look like other presidents.)
Known as a rebel or renegade..The Lawless one
Will be seen standing in a holy place
Will be called the One
Will have a wounded head and heal from it
Will attack Christians and Jews with ferocity
Changes Times and Laws with the help of his allies or disciples.
Connect these traits to the right person mentioned in the list.
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May I add, Beelzebub is the Lord of the flies..Who have we seen with flies on their face, the flies are attracted in a big way. Isaiah 14:12-19 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds. Luke 10: 18 Beheld Satan as lightning that falls from heaven. Daniel 7:25..will change times and laws.
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Wait a minute. Wouldn't that be the darkest irony if America's republic was not destroyed by war, but by people too stupid to do anything but follow the president, people who wanted to be politically correct, and people who liked him? That is rich. You guys are so screwed.
That IS the plan, rocket scientist!
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Not knowing Judaism so well, I read this and ask my self how was one man able to change what God required of Jews?
Serb, what is your point with all this Essene stuff, the Church is far from these theories today, and they do everything they can not to let people know about them...
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With the selection/election of pope Peter Roman, such revelation like things have got a quantum jump especially on the western front.
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With the selection/election of pope Peter Roman, such revelation like things have got a quantum jump especially on the western front.
Have mercy :::D It seems people outside the Roman Catholic church give the pope more importance than his actual followers do. :laugh:
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Have mercy :::D It seems people outside the Roman Catholic church give the pope more importance than his actual followers do. :laugh:
You are correct but they are the muslamics who are going to take the full advantage of the scary situation with their demands and the neighbors of muslamics will be in peril. Papacy shall not become pro-muslamic at this juncture or any other, that is the concern.
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Have mercy :::D It seems people outside the Roman Catholic church give the pope more importance than his actual followers do. :laugh:
Well we do know one thing CJD. Eventually the Beast and False Prophet will come. That's in Christian prophecy. We may not know who they will be or when they will appear but we know they will, so I think it's a good idea to be wary of such things and to be careful.
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Judaism doesn't believe in 'fallen angels' or any of that foolishness. Satan is an angel who was created with a purpose. As opposed to what Lady 10 posted about her churches position I would like to clarify that the Jewish belief is that angels do not have 'free will' in the way we understand it.
I said I will not respond on this thread no longer but somehow I missed out what you wrote here muman so I need to reply once again. And I apologize in advance to WFTMPTC, just in case this thread becomes moved or locked.
Why are you calling other people's beliefs a "FOOLISHNESS", there are people who believe in the concept of fallen angels, so are they "fools" for those beliefs? How do you call a person who believes in a supposed "foolishness"? So if you personally don't believe in those things, it becomes a "foolishness"? Malapert and contumelious to say those things, at least.
Second, I don't care will you oppose to my Orthodox Church's position. I am not here to "oppose" to Synagogues, 112 asked a question, I simply provided some sources as a response to his question, nothing more, nothing less. The purpose was not to "oppose" but to answer a simple question which was addressed to Christians only. Down with all your conspiracy theories and down with your false claim that some people on JTF want to "assimilate" and "convert" the Jewish people....... Nobody here wants to do that, such claims are full of groundlessness and nothing more.
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Well we do know one thing CJD. Eventually the Beast and False Prophet will come. That's in Christian prophecy. We may not know who they will be or when they will appear but we know they will, so I think it's a good idea to be wary of such things and to be careful.
As I think that they have already arrived and have full potentials reserved with them, so the only consolation is the silver lining in the skies which indicates the advent of the Jewish M. Then after only, the smoke will be cleared.
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I said I will not respond on this thread no longer but somehow I missed out what you wrote here muman so I need to reply once again. And I apologize in advance to WFTMPTC, just in case this thread becomes moved or locked.
Why are you calling other people's beliefs a "FOOLISHNESS", there are people who believe in the concept of fallen angels, so are they "fools" for those beliefs? How do you call a person who believes in a supposed "foolishness"? So if you personally don't believe in those things, it becomes a "foolishness"? Malapert and contumelious to say those things, at least.
Second, I don't care will you oppose to my Orthodox Church's position. I am not here to "oppose" to Synagogues, 112 asked a question, I simply provided some sources as a response to his question, nothing more, nothing less. The purpose was not to "oppose" but to answer a simple question which was addressed to Christians only. Down with all your conspiracy theories and down with your false claim that some people on JTF want to "assimilate" and "convert" the Jewish people....... Nobody here wants to do that, such claims are full of groundlessness and nothing more.
What conspiracy theory
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Maitreya Buddha will be the anti-Christ
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I said I will not respond on this thread no longer but somehow I missed out what you wrote here muman so I need to reply once again. And I apologize in advance to WFTMPTC, just in case this thread becomes moved or locked.
Why are you calling other people's beliefs a "FOOLISHNESS", there are people who believe in the concept of fallen angels, so are they "fools" for those beliefs? How do you call a person who believes in a supposed "foolishness"? So if you personally don't believe in those things, it becomes a "foolishness"? Malapert and contumelious to say those things, at least.
Second, I don't care will you oppose to my Orthodox Church's position. I am not here to "oppose" to Synagogues, 112 asked a question, I simply provided some sources as a response to his question, nothing more, nothing less. The purpose was not to "oppose" but to answer a simple question which was addressed to Christians only. Down with all your conspiracy theories and down with your false claim that some people on JTF want to "assimilate" and "convert" the Jewish people....... Nobody here wants to do that, such claims are full of groundlessness and nothing more.
This may be why it is best not to answer a simple question about Christianity. First, this is a Jewish forum that welcomes Christians to help save Israel and America. Why take advantage of that 'hospitality'? Second, It can be interpreted as a way to 'assimilate' and to 'convert'. I don't believe that we have any Christian members with that intent behind being here. And that is not to say you shouldn't point out inaccuracies about Christianity when posted. I just think indepth explanations do cross the line.
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The only demons I know about are the living ones. If my lack of demon knowledge keeps you away from Christianity it's a blessing.
C'mon now. The only thing keeping me from going back to Christianity more than people not answering my questions is when they do. I know what its like to believe in these evil demons that you essentially know nothing about. It's all vanity.
And Lady 10, clearly by his own beliefs, those beliefs are foolishness. That's how I understand it. From your viewpoint, I'm sure they're all relevant. Some hassidic Jews believe there are evil demons out there, and they probably like this.
If you won't call Hindu Zionist's position incorrect, than you have a right to take offense at someone saying it about your own position, sweetheart.
To be honest, I disagree with everyone. I think that there will be an [censored] who tried to control the world, but I don't think he's going to be possessed (at worst he'll be skitzo), nor do I think such an event is necessary, as clearly, there are enough evil people to choose from today that would make the world more horrible than anyone could imagine. All this devil stuff seems to be to be a way of not blaming yourself. I don't want to tell you any stories about my time in a cult, but suffice it to say, it certainly is used that way.
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Lady 10 is getting on my nerves, I can't stand her, oh my God what a :-X
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I said I will not respond on this thread no longer but somehow I missed out what you wrote here muman so I need to reply once again. And I apologize in advance to WFTMPTC, just in case this thread becomes moved or locked.
Why are you calling other people's beliefs a "FOOLISHNESS", there are people who believe in the concept of fallen angels, so are they "fools" for those beliefs? How do you call a person who believes in a supposed "foolishness"? So if you personally don't believe in those things, it becomes a "foolishness"? Malapert and contumelious to say those things, at least.
Second, I don't care will you oppose to my Orthodox Church's position. I am not here to "oppose" to Synagogues, 112 asked a question, I simply provided some sources as a response to his question, nothing more, nothing less. The purpose was not to "oppose" but to answer a simple question which was addressed to Christians only. Down with all your conspiracy theories and down with your false claim that some people on JTF want to "assimilate" and "convert" the Jewish people....... Nobody here wants to do that, such claims are full of groundlessness and nothing more.
Just wait until he "apologizes" for being divisive because he was only trying to "keep JTF Jewish" in a thread that is for Christians. :laugh:
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Israeli Heart or any Jewish member: I am legitimately interested to know what Scriptural verses Jews use to refute the possibility of angels having free will. I thought that Judaism has a concept of "dibbukim" which is similar to the Western concept of demons.
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What conspiracy theory
Many, but I don't have time to go through posts of other people.
Ephraim what is your opinion about Pagans
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This may be why it is best not to answer a simple question about Christianity. First, this is a Jewish forum that welcomes Christians to help save Israel and America. Why take advantage of that 'hospitality'? Second, It can be interpreted as a way to 'assimilate' and to 'convert'. I don't believe that we have any Christian members with that intent behind being here. And that is not to say you shouldn't point out inaccuracies about Christianity when posted. I just think indepth explanations do cross the line.
Correct.
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Just wait until he "apologizes" for being divisive because he was only trying to "keep JTF Jewish" in a thread that is for Christians. :laugh:
Muman can not do anyhing to me now, I am Lady 11 now, fresh new start on this forum for me under a different name :::D :::D :::D :::D
I am surprised some people here are not aware what is JTF concept about, even after being all those years on this forum.
Yes, you are right WFTMPTC, he was just keeping the JTF Jewish, he had to protect the forum from assimilation and conversion!
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Just wait until he "apologizes" for being divisive because he was only trying to "keep JTF Jewish" in a thread that is for Christians. :laugh:
I have absolutely nothing to apologize for. The fact that people continue to feel a need to create divisions over the fact that Christianity has different beliefs than Judaism is not my responsibility, and I feel no need to apologize about it. It is you and your friends who are the ones who seek division. If you cannot understand that Jews will not agree on these issues then I don't know what to tell you. I do not go to Christian forums posting Jewish theology in threads labeled 'For Jewish Bishops : The ONENESS of Hashem' because it would be a provocation. Yet you, WFTMPTC have constantly posted things in this forum which you knew would be controversial.
And that Lady 10 (now Lady 11 for some odd reason) feigns ignorance by forgetting the great crimes against the Jewish people perpetrated by the Orthodox Russian Church is the ultimate in chutzpah. I don't know what her church has taught her but that church has an abysmal record in it's treatment of Jews through the centuries. If you would like me to provide examples of how this particular church abused Russian Jews I can provide ample examples. Calling this a 'conspiracy' theory is just plain provocation.
My family and families I know from my community were on the receiving end of much abuse by the Orthodox Russian church. It is one thing for those who associate with that church to apologize for the past and say let us move on, it is another thing to call such historical rememberence 'conspiracy'. If anything the 'Russian Orthodox Church' conspired against the Jewish people.
I do not have anything to apologize for, while those whose forefathers were chasing Jews with pitchforks in Russia have a lot to apologize for..
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And that muman is once again addressing lies to me, I am not a member of Russian Orthodox Church!
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Ok...time to lock this thread..it has gone long enough and way off topic.