JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: admin on October 04, 2006, 08:30:38 PM
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In light of the below post by Mike Guzofsky regarding Revava suggesting Revava supports Marzel's people and the Kach approach and not the Kahane Chai approach, why does Revava oppose JTF if JTF also is part of the Kach approach?
After the Rav's death actually prior to Rav Meir Kahane's murder in Nov 1990 there was a dispute already in Kach about the concept of Revolution or Referendum. The board of Kach opposed rabbi Kahane's new focus and he basically shut Kach down to take effect Dec 1990. He was assassinated Nov 90 in the states and they continued on their merry way as if nothing had happened. I was one of the few board members and leaders in the movement who agreed and remained loyal to the Rav.
When Binyamin - rav kahane's son and myself insisted on continuing that program, after his murder, (that was the crux of the split between rav kahane and his Kach board of directors even in his life time), they basically said, "Mike, Binyamin, the Rav is dead we will not be bound to stupid ideas that we had problems with even when he was alive, if you wish, go make your own movement but we will not tolerate you guys doing that program and certain others here". And so Kahane Chai was born and cofounded by myself and Rav Binyamin Kahane in 1990. The folks in Tapuach from the Gareen that I had started there in 1989 supported Binyamin and myself in our new endeavor with exception to a few folks that went with the original Kach.
Slowly but surely with the help of G-d and hard work around the globe we gained the support of most of the old members and chapters as well as a lot of new people.
Binyamin and his wife were murdered 6 years ago.
Note that Mr HaIvri who is married to Moly who was born the sister of Taly, who was Binyamin's wife. In other words David and Binyamin were brothers -in -Law. In any event in the initial years of Kahane Chai Mr HaIvri was close to Rav Binyamin and his neighbor. Later on, HaIvri became frustrated with Binyamin's "lack of assertiveness" and he went his own way, supporting Agudat Yisrael in former elections. Rav Binyamin naturally opposed and condemned this move. HaIvri later opened his own groups and distanced himself from Rav Binyamin. The two were not on particularly good terms prior to Rav Binyamin's murder.
After Binyamin's assassination MR HaIvri left the various failed business and organizational ventures he was operating and became a very dominant force among those who wished to continue to publish Rav Binyamin's writings and parsha newsletter. I, who had been the codirector of international Kahane activities from NY, saw no particular problem with Mr HaIvri playing a central role in preparing the bi-weekly parsha sheet for production and distribution. While understanding that he lacked the ability to manage content or do much more, I permitted him and the others in Tapuach to gather old writings and prepare a parsha sheet to be sent out every other week. haIvri's role was more to collect funds and to make sure that the people who prepared ocntent and who stuffed the enevelopes came in every few weeks to do just that...
I figured that there was little room to go wrong. At best some importnat writings would be recirculated. At worst the project would fall apart due to lack of funds or lack of new material and lack of interest. What ultimately did happen.
At a meeting after the murder of Rav Binyamin some key activists met and discussed who should run things, so to speak. It was requested of myself, after I had now returned to Israel to take on the leadership of the organization in Israel. Whatever. And Rav Richter was asked to assume some sort of spiritual leadership position. I saw no need for formalities and was quite busy with Jewish Legion affairs, and other personal and organizatinal issues, however, I did commit to "Keep an eye on things" and promised to make myself available AS NEEDED. Since the whole local activity amounted to a bi - weekly publishing of the parsha sheet and perhaps a reprinting of a book once a year, I figured the local 2-3 people who were preparing the page content and HaIvri coming in to the office once every few weeks to make sure things were being packed etc would suffice. Naturally, I came to regular editorial meetings and helped submit materials when requested to do so.
While I thought it was odd that Haivri should draw a full time salry for doing no much more than overseeing production and mailing not more than 5-10 hours a week or a month to do that, I supported the continuation of the new status quo.
Eventually, I saw that the newsletter was not reflecting some of the key programs and that in fact the B Kahane newsletter took a turn resembling the Kach side of the debate and not the Kahane Chai style and content, and worse I saw that certain unworthy individulas were being given editorial disgression and that the parsha started to literally emphasize the building of HaIvri and yisrael Cohen in a cult style fashion as well as their new group revava. It was at this point that I privately stepped forward and tryed to have them rehabilitate the parsha sheet which started to look like their own personal campaign for Prime Minster or something. I insisted that the editorial borad meet and that there be a board to oversee the content.
As time went on, the parsha sheet came out less, and less, up to the point where it perhaps comes out 5-6 times out of 52 weeks per year. No great harm, in my opinion. The parsha sheet was used more as a platform to sell HaIvri, Cohen and revava than to spread a necessary and actual message of truth. As one of the founders of Kahane Chai and of the parsha sheet and as al eader in those movements, I recently took the initiative to reinstate the parsha sheet, on a weekly basis.
It is incredible. People that had not seen the page for a year or two now see it and they are so thirsty for it. New people are calling daily to receive our message. I am sorry I did not take the initiative long ago. No matter. That is the history of the split with Kach and the split within what was once known as Kahane Chai if you want to call it that.
I dont care about splits. I care about getting out a message that people want and need to hear now more than ever. I have no problem with HaIvri or the Kach people on a personal level and they should all live and be well. As for the projects such as the Parsha sheet that I was a cofounder of, I am committed to trying my best to continue to get the word out period.
I am obsessed with 2 messages today: the Forty Year message, this being the fortieth year since the liberation of the Temple Mount and a year for Israel to deside its destiny and fate and the message of referendum or revolution. The people are ripe to demand to decide their own destiny here. We see the masses moving in that direction. It is sad that so many former Kahane people fail to realize the power and the role of the masses to topple the corrupt regime in Israel. I think Rav Kahane's books forty years and revolution are prophetic and vital to be broadcasted loudly and clearly today more than ever, The HaiVris and Marzels dont share that view. That is their right. And it is my right to focus on the messages that I think are vital. Split? I dont know, I dont care. We have a job to do and we will get it done with whoever wishes to join us. I have the ability to move forward and organize programs to create platforms for these messages and for Rav Kahane's proposals to save Jews. Young people are joining daily. We must continue, in spite of the obstacles that the governments place in our way. With G-d's help we will succeed. Time is running out. Who has time to talk about splits. The question is what needs to be done. Let us not ask how we will do it, but get the job done with those who share our views and who wish to join us.
We need to reconnect with the thousands ij the street who need and wnat to see our message. It is a shame that 5-6 of the oldtimers may think they kno wbetter than Rav Kahane. No matter. It is more important to go out otthe masses and to connect with the hundreds of thousands of people who are waiting ot hear direction from us. Over recent years, the people on the streets have lost contact with any of the Kahane movements. Now, with organizational coordination back on track and with a message fo substance I am rebuilding the ties with the old chapters nad with the new people. Split? Quit ethe ocntrary! Hard work and good work in the right direction and with a passion and dedication coupled by new organizational talent to reignite that Kahane torch in every town thorugout Israel. Split? Nah, the way it once was and the way it shall be gain, with G-d's help in spite of government persecution and in soite of years of inaction, incompetency and lack of direction by those who thought they knew better than Rav Kahane.
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Guzofsky does NOT say that revava supports the Kach approach. He claims that at one point HaIvri was supporting the Kach side in the split. I don't if that's true, but anything is possible with HaIvri, who has always been a fraud taking all types of different positions over the years.
Today revava does NOT support Kach or the Kahanist movement.
As Guzofsky mentions, HaIvri supported the anti-Zionist whores of Agudah in the Knesset elections. The same Agudah that currently is part of the Smolmert coalition government. The same Agudah that was against the creation of a Jewish state in 1948. The same Agudah that was a part of Ben Gurion's coalition government when Sephardi Jewish children were sent to anti-religious schools where they were taught to abandon the Torah and the mitzvot.
When Guzofsky writes about his decision to try to split the Kahanist movement, he again says many things that are untrue. Chaim dealt with this issue on the last Ask JTF program.
Let's stop worrying about these irrelevant little splinter groups. The former Kach group that JTF supports is the only HEBREW SPEAKING, NATIVE ISRAELI Kahanist movement. Guzofsky's group and revava are English-speaking American Jews who cannot possibly appeal to Hebrew-speaking native Israelis in a serious way.
However, there is a difference between Guzofsky's group and revava. We disagree with Guzofsky's decision to split the Kahanist movement, and with other aspects of what he is doing. But despite our differences with him, Guzofsky is not an evil person. HaIvri and revava ARE evil. They allowed one of their administrators to compare Chaim to Hitler! All they do is preach hatred against good Jews. They are the scum of the earth.
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I agree with jsullivan. We see what happens when real right-wing movements around the world splinter because some leaders have their own agenda. It allows crazy leftists to fill the void in any situation where it happens. It appears Revava is no different.
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HaIvri and revava ARE evil. They allowed one of their administrators to compare Chaim to Hitler! All they do is preach hatred against good Jews. They are the scum of the earth.
I'm saddened to learn about this. :(
Only JTF and the organizations it endorses are the "real deal."
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no offense but jsullivan your criticism of David Haivri isnt based on anything solid- its just becuase some 1 on the forum called chaim a name , ill let you know that David H. isnt allways active on the forum and ho personally doesnt allways read and see whats going on the forum, he mainly makes some of his article posts from time to time and thats pretty much all. soo if he personally called chaim something then thats a diff. story.
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Tzvi,
At first, I, too, was skeptical. But over the years I came to realize
that when JTF makes a statement, that statement is almost always
true, no matter how difficult it is for you or me to accept it.
JTF doesn't criticize fellow Jews lightly, and when it does, you
can be certain that it is justified.
JTF is the real deal, because Chaim performs the most
important Mitzvah in the entire Torah---he cleaves onto HaShem
and accepts unconditionally the yoke of heaven. Ultimately, JTF
will prevail, and those who oppose it, for whatever reason, will
not. JTF is the closest to what Kach used to be under the wise
and courageous guidance of Rav Kahane HY"D, and, again, the
fact that Noam Federman chooses to post his recorded programs
on JTF and not on other websites should speak volumes about
JTF's credibility.
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...the fact that Noam Federman chooses to post his recorded programs
on JTF and not on other websites should speak volumes about
JTF's credibility.
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!
GREAT post Davkakach!
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What an interesting thread. What is even more interesting is that after Rav Kahane HY"D was kicked out of the knesset, he removed himself from Kach and tried to dismantle the organization. Baruch Marzel and Itamar decided to keep it going against the wishes of Rav Kahane HY"D. Im not saying that Marzel or Itamar are bad people because they are not. They are good leaders that are making a positive difference in the movement. Im just saying that at the end, not even Rav Kahane HY"D was part of the Kach approach. The problem today, with almost all the leaders, is that everyone that worked directly for Rav Kahane HY"D said that they were fulfilling and doing exactly what Rav Kahane HY"D would have done. What is a fact is that at the end of Rav Kahane's life, after he tried to dismantle Kach due to its ban from the knesset, he decided that maybe the israeli political approach was not working. His last book, "revolution or referendum" is proof to this claim. The idea of the State of Judea was Rav Kahane's last and final approach. This did not stop Kach NOR Kahane Chai from trying to enter the knesset again.
I happen to work for Yekutiel Ben Yaakov, AKA Mike Guzofsky. In regards to Kahane Chai or -there - after being an only english speaking american organization, that is simply incorrect. It was co founded in Israel by Binyamin Kahane HY"D and Guzofsky. There was a headquarters in Israel as well as the US. Many of the members where both Israeli and outsiders exactly the same as Kach was. In fact, most of the original members were Kach members. Even today, most of the people that i work with are Israeli born Jews.
I see myself as a more modern Kahanist. I was not around for the split not do i really care about it today. All I see, is a bunch of groups that have the exact same goal but different ways of accomplishing it. There are many grudges and rifts between the men that worked directly for Rav Kahane HY"D. That is not my business nor will it effect what i do or how i feel about the message. I attend event hosted by ex Kach members just the same as I do by ex Kahane Chai members. If i disagree with another groups tactics, it does not anger me because regardless it is a push in the right direction. ALTHOUGH, this may sound a little hypocritical but I am in full agreeance with you in regards to Revava. There is one moderator on the revava forum that I happen to like a lot and respect and i can not understand why he still works with the Revava people. They have proven time after time... nevermind. We all know what they have proven themselves to be. Jsullivan described them pretty well in his last post.
I have deep respect for Chaim and his endeavors and i wish him well in his goals today and in the future.
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Nice post Nahum 8). I am a supporter of Mike Guzofsky and the kahane.org people and don't like a lot of JTF's approach but none the less I give my regards to Chaim since we are all aiming for the same goal.
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whats wronge with Revava or any of the guys their, will some 1 please explain to me, write it privatly to me or whateva, but not once was their a real reason of why revava is bad. maybe im not seeing something, or maybe people here have something personal, i dont know.
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Also, to add to my point earlier, Baruch Marzel was born in the US.
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There are many faults for Revava and many people dislike them for different reasons. Personally, i dislike them because they banned me from their forum. Not because i spoke irrationally or vulgarly, but because i dared to argue their "stance" with a rational and logical approach. If you dare disagree with any of their moderators, you will be subjected to loshon hora, scorn, embarrasment, and in the end you will be banned from their forum where you will continue to be picked on without the ability to argue back. I have a serious bone to pick with one of their moderators; Elisha AKA Yissachar. He has said and done things that are unimaginally devestating and horrible. If you want details, here is a short one for ya. There was an American that joined a group of defenders in Kfar Tapuach (Samaria, West Bank). His name is Jeff. Jeff was caught by the shin bet for smuggling a sniper rifle into Israel. Since he was part of our community, Mike Guzofsky felt as though he would help Jeff out with the lawyer fees. Mike does this for a lot of kahanistim that are persecuted by the government. He creates fliers, posters, letters, tv shows, interviews, etc... all in effort to bring attention to the cause and of course to help fundraise. Now, when one is first arrested, there is a service called Honenu. Honenu is a group of lawyers that help out with the pretrial. Once pretrial is over you must obtain your own lawyer. When Mike was calling out for fundraising, Elisha decided to spread the rumor that Jeff already had a lawyer and Mike was unjustly fundraising. Anyone that knows mike including his enemies knows that he has never done such a thing. Now, Jeff is left without a lawyer and Mike is suffering, trying to raise money for him in lue of Elishas vicous attacks. It was a sick thing to do to Jeff as well as Mike. Everyone knows that Elisha was in the wrong and yet he still refuses to apologize or admit he was wrong.
What does this have to do with Revava? Well Elisha is praised by his leader and commander in arms, David Haivri everytime he makes a move against kahane.org, jewish legion, and the rest of mikes endeavors. Not only that, but he was made moderator over an attack against kahane.org. Not only that but they are proclaimed to not be part of the movement and not related to was once kach or kahane chai. Not 100% of them are rotten but the goods ones are certainly the minority.
This is only one example of how sick they are. I could write a book about some of the disgusting things that go on there.
I must add one more thing. There is however, one good moderator of their forum that is a good friend of mine and should not be mixed in with this mess. He is the only left that brings logic to the table and even then sometimes his own posts are deleted by his fellow moderators. Not even the moderators are able to speak freely there.
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Elisha also deleted a message I posted about Ask Yekutiel. I also happened to mention JTF in the post about how Mike got the idea from Ask JTF.
I also got this messages from Elisha:
Yissachar
Moderator
Posts: 1021
Proud #1 on Yekutiel's hitlist!
(No subject)
« Sent to: kahanechaivekayam on: Today at 05:48:41 PM »
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Items relating to Yekutiel and JTF are irrelevant to this forum. Please keep this in mind in the future.
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In a bad mood, as usual
Yacov i think you just opened something unnecessary and stupid, their are obviously private problems and grudges that these diff people have against eachother, in all these quarrells no one makes sense, and people try attacking one another for stupid ego infated reasons sometimes, and then we ask why we arent helped by Hashe-m in our struggles for the greater Israel.
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There better things to focus on but here are the reasons I am unhappy with Revava
Revava has made clear they are not Kahanist
Revava was in charge of the Parsha sheet which went from a weekly to a bi-monthly(at best) when they were in charge
Revava recently stopped publishing the parsha sheet
Revava used the Kahane Chai donor list to raise a lot of money that never did anything besides provide for the salaries of the people in charge
Yisrael Meir Cohen, who runs Revava with David Haivri, is by his own admission an ex-shabak agent
Revava has consistently worked to undermine any work done by Mike Guzofsky out of a personnal vendetta by Elisha against Mike
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The list goes on and on. Listen Tsvi, I dont know what your relationship with Revava is, but if you are involved with them or donate money you must know that you have been warned. Eventually you will either get burnt by them or disgusted. It took about 8 months for it to happen to me. I could dig up some details and make a different arguement but i dont think it would be enough for you. after my last post, after what he did to Jeff, i dont understand how you can not see the logic to Elishas and Revavas blind hatred toward Kahanistim.
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Wow. My account there is now deleted.
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who were you on Revava?
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The same username as on here -- I just rarely posted there.
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To set the record straight:
1- I dont think HaIvri or Y Cohen have any bad intentions.
2- They are both dedicated Jews who have done good things, even great things for Jews.
3- The parsha was coming out every other week when Rav Binyamin was murdered not weekly.
4- Yisrael Cohen never admitted to working for Shin Bet or police against right wing Jews, as far as I know. He had said that in the past he worked against Leftist Jews, just as Federman had admitted working for police but in his opinion to give disinformation re Kahane activities, kind of a doubleagent type of thing. I am not judging or justifying either here. However, both claim that it was an issue of the past and that they never harmed good Jews. I have no way of measuring this and only have their own words to go by. I would work with both on various levels and do continue to do so.
5- In ideology I am probably closer to Federman today than to HaIvri. There are three main camps of philosophy among the Kahane people who count. One is strictly political activism like Marzel and Ben Gvir. Another is anti the system and believes that it all has to fall and that we should have nothing to do with the army or elections like Federman, Lenny and Baruch Ben Yosef. And then there are those who think that they can reinvent the wheel, make cosmetic changes more applicable for today, I think Revava falls into that side, where they think that a newand fresh focus or a different way of presenting and packaging the views will get further than the Rav got. In their new search they often make mistakes and contradict old and tested tactics and ideology.
If Rav Kahane focused on the removal of the Hillul Hashem on the mount, they might focus on the building of the Temple and not the immediate need to erase the Hillul Hashem. Seems like a small nuance but it is not from a halachic perspective. It is consensus to say nice positive things about Moshiach and building Temples, but it is rare, dangerous and more halachically obligatory to address the immediate Hillul Hashem or immediate threat to Jewsih survival. I am not condemning Revava for joining the many who will talk about ascending the mount and building Temples. It is wonderful. However, I as a Kahanist will concentrate on the immediate threat and the immediate Hillul Hashem. I chose this as one example.
It is kind of like the debate with Yesha and gush emunim wether we focus on settlement building or on the second side of the mitzva- expeling our enemies. Revava leaders HaIvri and Cohen clearly stated in an interview that they did not see the need to focus on that anymore. While it is true Haivri was ironically tried for having shirts that read "no arabs no terror" this is clearly not his focus, by his own admission. The article and others are full of the idea that they will come to rescue the day, stop falling in the pitfall of nostalgia andmove forward with new and innovative ideas and tactics. I have not seen the new and innovative ideas or tactics. It is more like old stuff that had been rejected by Rav Kahane or used by Rav Kahane in this form or another and if anything focusing on the stuff that was rejected by the Rav.
I dont have much of a problem with Revava though. They shouldlive and be well. I truly wish them the best of luck and appreciate much of what they do. My problem was that the group was born and built out of the Kahane data bases and people and that HaiVri and Cohen conveniently would wear the Kahane cap when it facilitated their needs and then the unKahane cap when it did not. My problem was building people and groups out of existing groups and data bases. It is like a lawyer in a law firm, making his own firm and taking the old files to do so. No doubt some of those files were his own new contacts but the idea was that there was no disclosure here and no permission granted and there was a blur over the divisions between the groups and it wasKahane=Haivri-Revava=hameir Ldavid=darka shel Troah in people's eyes.
So then joining Revava was like joining Kahane or staying in Kahane and that is simply not the case.
This non disclosure and mixing has led to confusion and distortion on many fronts.
It was clear and obvious that at some point the new revava would shed the Kahane, the parsha sheets etc..but that would be done when there is enough of a base for HaIvri and Cohen outside of the Kahane circles. They would reatin the new people and the old donors but part ways with the Kahane liabilities. That has now been done. After years of peddling Revava and themselves through the Kahane institutions as well as through their new vehicles, they now feel that the new vehicle can stand alone and actually healthier without the legal and financial liabilities of paying the legal and financial price for a weekly parsha sheet or whatever...
And so I have no current problem with Haivri. He should go his own way, we should go our own way and he should have all of the success and happiness in the world. H ei snot the enemy. And people here as well as on the Kahane forum should not waste time attacking him. he is a not a leftist as someone said here. That is outrageous.
Yes, I have a problem with his twisted moderator who does in fact undermine any and every vital program and appeal I make for prisoners and other good people. There should be accountability on the part of HaIvri for allowing this tormented soul to continue to hurt Jews but other than that, Haivri should not be attacked or maligned. If he says something that is stupid or false he should be confronted like anyone else. And if he has a bolshovic style forum that bans people who question the wisdom of his ideas and programs he should be confronted for that or for the loshon Harah spread by his forum moderators. There is nothing wrong with demanding accountability. But let us not attack him for false reasons and let us give the man credit for the wonderful things he has done. Those things dont grant him immunity. Even Avraham Avinu, the first HaIvri had no immunity and we learn from his great deeds as well as his mistakes.
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To set the record straight:
1- I dont think HaIvri or Y Cohen have any bad intentions.
they dont have bad intentions? Haivri was caught on many occasions stealing property and money from you, Joel B and many others. he has taken over a parsha sheet and ran it to the ground until you took it iver again and started to rebuild it. maybe he didnt do that on purpose and hes just stupid?
Yisroel cohen was working for the shin bet at some point or another if he isnt still that is yet to be known but there is someone named chaim perlman who is pretty sure he spent 6 months in jail because of cohens "disinformation" to the authorities.
2- They are both dedicated Jews who have done good things, even great things for Jews.
so did sharon and many other Jews but what does that say? they have a right do what they want because they did a few good things in their life?
3- The parsha was coming out every other week when Rav Binyamin was murdered not weekly.
and when he took it over the list of people recieving it went down to half and it cme out in some cases once every few months.
4- Yisrael Cohen never admitted to working for Shin Bet or police against right wing Jews, as far as I know. He had said that in the past he worked against Leftist Jews, just as Federman had admitted working for police but in his opinion to give disinformation re Kahane activities, kind of a doubleagent type of thing. I am not judging or justifying either here. However, both claim that it was an issue of the past and that they never harmed good Jews. I have no way of measuring this and only have their own words to go by. I would work with both on various levels and do continue to do so.
he may not have admitted to working for the authorities against right wing Jews but he did against left w ing jews and federmans own brother as well as a man by the name of Gershon Barcella both swear that they spent a long time in jail because of federmans disinformation he gave to the shin bet. so much for disinformation i guess.
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We all know that the only TRUE and LEGITIMATE representatives of the KAHANIST
movement in Israel are Noam Federman and Baruch Marzel.
While they may not agree on the issue of ELECTIONS, they do not hide their opinions
and are being TRUTHFUL.
Yekutiel is a distinguished person but he is FAR from being truthful.
Yekutiel says he is against elections but in fact he WORKED FOR Yissrael Cohen
and Michael Kleiner AGAINST Baruch Marzel.
Yekutiel says he is close to Noam Federman but he always accuses him of being
a Shabak Agent.
Yekutiel says he is represents KAHANISM but he did nothing to spread RABBI KAHANE works
since BINYAMIN KAHANE was shot by muslim terrorists. UNLESS you consider training dogs
or opening up Internet Coffee Shop.
I know nothing of REVAVA excluding their failed attempt to go to Temple Mount.
I know nothing of David HaIvri except he continued BINYAMIN KAHANE work on the
Darka Shel Torah and spreading RABBI KAHANE books together with LENNY GOLDBERG.
I wonder why Yekutiel was not the one to take over the project from the beginning.
I also see David HaIvri does not respond to wicked language against him and that may mean
he is a true JEW who hears insults and remains silent just as Noam Federman does when he
is being accused by wicked opportunists and slanderers from his own camp.
JTF should support the ones who are TRUTHFUL ,for TRUTHFULLNESS is the main value
RABBI KAHANE viewed as a test if a person is being rightworthy of the title PROUD JEW.
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your right JTFRULZ you indeed know nothing.
Im just guessing you dont live in Israel because you would know that there is NO kahane movement it isnt headed by marzel, federman or ben gvir because it doesnt exist.
there is a memorial once a year and marzel comes to plug why he should be elected and federman talks about taking down the state and everyone basically says the same thing year after year. thats the extent of the movement.
as far as yekutiel I know that he has been publishing books like revolution or referendum, 40 years and others in hebrew and english as well as the voice of judea, and recently took over the darka shel torah thank god after it didnt get published for quite some time, he has aranged the biggest kahane event ever when he organized the hachnasat sefer torah on the tapuach hill, he ran and continues to run the national referendum campaign and many more projects all in addition to the life saving dog project. i could go on but im not here to plug him.
as far as the elections from what i understand he didnt vote but he helped kleiner with advertising because he thought it was very noble of him to put pinner who was an inmate on his list. in fact the day before the elections yekutiel aproached kleiner and asked him if he would be interested in putting pinner at the number 1 position on his list and he said that he would do that but marzel on the other hand when approached with the same proposal declined.
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JTFrulz wrote:
"Yekutiel is a distinguished person but he is FAR from being truthful."
Actually I always thought that I was not that distinguished but I am truthful. And if you wish to attack my truth, please try and substantiate the claim. If I have made mistakes, I will try and correct it.
JT..wrote:
"Yekutiel says he is against elections but in fact he WORKED FOR Yissrael Cohen
and Michael Kleiner AGAINST Baruch Marzel."
I never said I was against elections. I said that ideologically I am probabaly closer to Federman than HaIVri. That includes many aspects of ideology. As far as elections I am not in either camp. I think that good Jews should use any tool at their disposal to save Jewish lives. I really doubt that any great salvation will, in the end come from Knesset. Yet that does not mean that certain good people wont do certain life saving things if elected. And so I might help Marzel and Kleiner and Feiglin maybe even Efi Eitam, if he keeps it up, but overall I dont see that corrupt institution saving am Yisrael, at this point...
JTF...writes:
"Yekutiel says he is close to Noam Federman but he always accuses him of being
a Shabak Agent."
That is absolutely false. I am not close to Federman. I work with him from time to time on common goals. I do see him as a friend and an ally. But we are not close and I do not say that we are. I invited him to speak at the Judean conference, I have supplied him with guard dogs. I have made a protest on his behalf when he was in prison. He is a friend and I appreciate much of his work for prisoners etc...
I DO NOT SAY THAT HE IS A SHIN BET AGENT. I do say that he says that when he was a youth 17-18 that he worked as some sort of double agent feeding the police disinformation. That is what he says. I do not believe that he has worked with or for the authorities in any capacity since then and I dont say that he is an agent. At the same time, I would never suggest to Kahane people to play the double agent stuff, because I think anything we say to the authorities, even if we work 100 percent within the law, can and will be used against us. Noam was young, and for all I know he really succeeded as a double agent. I would not and have not said that he is an agent. And it is wrong and misleading to say that this is what I have said. Federman is a good Jew. I dont have to agree with his style and everything he says. Nor do I have to agree with his decision to feed misinformation to the authorities when he was 17.
JTF says:
Yekutiel says he represents KAHANISM but he did nothing to spread RABBI KAHANE works
since BINYAMIN KAHANE was shot by muslim terrorists. UNLESS you consider training dogs
or opening up Internet Coffee Shop.
I dont say I represent Kahanism. I say that I am continuing some of the vital programs that Rav Kahane started, which others have aborted. I do say that Rav Kahane was right. I do say that I believe the Kahane ideas and programs to be the only ones that could save Israel.
What is the difference what you say or think or what I say? The US state dept seems to think that I am continuing Kahanism and they have inlcuded any group i ever started regardless of the groups stated purpose to be classified as a Kahane terrorist group, see today's news once again. The Israelis seem to feel that my work is more Kahanism than anyone elses. When was teh last time you saw teh Israeli police close down a Kahane person's private business? The Israeli highcourt upholds the closure of the kennels and the cafe because "they are continuing the Kahane legacy" see high court decisions. So maybe you can convince them that I am not Kahanist and maybe they can permit me to open a business and do the defense work that I had set out to do...
The Voice of Judea continues to publish writings of Rav Kahane. And I never stopped publishing Rav Kahane's works.
JTF... writes:
I know nothing of David HaIvri except he continued BINYAMIN KAHANE work on the
Darka Shel Torah and spreading RABBI KAHANE books together with LENNY GOLDBERG.
I wonder why Yekutiel was not the one to take over the project from the beginning.
I was. I was one of the cofounders of the parsha newsletter. And I was in the states when Rav Binyamin was killed. The moment I came back to Israel, I was asked to lead the local activities and parsha newsletter, and I continued to make sure the page came out on track. The moment I saw problems I stepped in...
I also see David HaIvri does not respond to wicked language against him and that may mean
he is a true JEW who hears insults and remains silent just as Noam Federman does when he
is being accused by wicked opportunists and slanderers from his own camp.
I have not heard any allegations leveled against Noam. As far as HaIvri, I am not bothered why he does not answer the allegations raised against him. I am bothered why he does not answer false allegations made by his puppet and pet moderator Elisha against others. It is HaIvri's group and his forum and he has someone doing his dirty work and saying the sickest Loshon Horah about others and does not say anything nor does he prevent his moderator from doing that, nor does he permit myself and others to answer the trash. So that is his briliant way of not answering? I see...He bans JTF, Kahane.org and dozens of people - mamash a righteous bastion of democracy, that Revava democratic Republic.
Jtfconcludes:
JTF should support the ones who are TRUTHFUL ,for TRUTHFULLNESS is the main value
RABBI KAHANE viewed as a test if a person is being rightworthy of the title PROUD JEW.
Fair enough so let us be honest and stop misquoting.
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In reply to Kman:
Kman, as for you final statement:
"So there is no black and white between Kach and Kahane Chai. Today the two camps blend. What ideology do you believe JTF has? They support both Marzel and Federman. Chaim has said The Chayil Party is a good idea as is The State of Judea."
I do not think the ideologies blend nor do i think the tactics blend. I think there are common goals and i think people need to bury their egos to see how to help each other on common goals.
There is ideology and there is execution and implementation of an ideology. I do not know exactly what Chaim does or exactly what he preaches. I dont think that he is leading some sort of program in Israel. As for Merzel he has a political party. I have helped him here or there during the elections, but as I said i dont see any great salvation coming from the elections, the knesset or his party... As for Federman, I dont know exactly what programs he is implementing. But if he organizes a program or event that I agree with I will say so, as I have in the past.
When Federmanmade the appeal regarding teh police inaction on the Zada lynching, I praised him and invited him on teh Voice of Judea show. Jews need to be honest and truthful indeed. And when Federman does a good thing, I priase him and offer him a podium to express himself...
I am focusing on the Kahane referendum program among others because it is clear to me that the Kahane referendum idea is a brilliant idea and it is clear that the current call from the majority of Israelis for a people's commission of inquiry could lead to the type of emergency referendum to save Israel from its corrupt leaders. This is a time for all Kahanists to join forces in trying to guide the righteous anger of the majority of Israelis. The fact that other Kahane people dont see this is beyond me. But I suppose it is ideas like this that differentiate us from the others. And I suppose the "revolution or Referendum" approach scares the regime to the extent that they have taken unprecedented measures against me and those assisting me in these programs and campaigns...
The people of Israel will yet determine their own destiny in spite of the sick leaders in Israel and inspite of the lack of movement in this direction by most Kahane factions...
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I am focusing on the Kahane referendum program among others because it is clear to me that the Kahane referendum idea is a brilliant idea and it is clear that the current call from the majority of Israelis for a people's commission of inquiry could lead to the type of emergency referendum to save Israel from its corrupt leaders. This is a time for all Kahanists to join forces in trying to guide the righteous anger of the majority of Israelis. The fact that other Kahane people dont see this is beyond me. But I suppose it is ideas like this that differentiate us from the others. And I suppose the "revolution or Referendum" approach scares the regime to the extent that they have taken unprecedented measures against me and those assisting me in these programs and campaigns...
Yekutiel dont you see that the Referendum idea is a joke, if the great Rav Kahane wasnt able to accomplish this ideal, then you believe that any one else can? I understand that you want positive change and still belive in the origional Rav Kahane's approach, but we have to see the reality and we have to see that being part of the system and trying to work within ( Marzel) or making a referendum (you) or any other democracy nonsense (as if democracy has any true say in Judaism or that a majority counts).
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Yekutiel, the State Department banned Kahane Chai along with Kach in 1994 because the Rabbi's son Binyamin was involved with Kahane Chai. No one seriously considers the group you run now to be a real threat to the Israeli authorities. YOU HAVE NO REAL PROGRAM AMONG HEBREW SPEAKING ISRAELI JEWS, WHO ARE 95% OF ISRAELI JEWRY. The Hebrew page you have is only for show. No one goes to it.
You raise money for a referendum. You are going to be able to place a referendum on the Israeli ballot in today's Israel? This is just a gimmick that accomplishes nothing and you know it.
Noam has no program!? He is currently on trial with an elaborate 25 count indictment because of the program that he does in JTF's Hebrew section. You know very well that the authorities take Noam and Itamar Ben Gvir very seriously. The indictment against Noam specifically states that his JTF program could potentially persuade Israeli Jews to physically resist future expulsions which would disrupt the government plan to create an independent PLO-Hamas state in Judea, Samaria and the Gaza District.
As far as Chaim's Hebrew-language programs, the indictment specifically says the same thing: that these programs if continued may persuade Israeli Jews to physically resist the planned expulsions. The indictment makes clear that the programs of both Noam and Chaim are to be considered major threats to "public order" and "government policy", i.e. expelling Jews and surrendering more Jewish land to the Muslim terrorists. They cannot indict Chaim because they do not allow him to become an Israeli citizen. But about a third of Noam's very lengthy indictment deals with Chaim's program and the "major threat to government policy" that the program represents.
WE INVITE ALL OF OUR HEBREW-SPEAKING READERS TO GO TO JTF'S HEBREW FORUM - WHICH JUST STARTED LAST WEEK - TO SEE THE VERY HIGH QUALITY ISRAELI JEWISH YOUTH THAT JTF'S HEBREW PROGRAMS HAVE ATTRACTED TO THE KAHANIST MOVEMENT. MOST OF THE POSTERS ARE NOT EVEN RELIGIOUS BUT ARE INTERESTED IN BECOMING PART OF OUR MOVEMENT TO SAVE THE LAND OF ISRAEL.
Yekutiel, I urge you to start doing what JTF is doing. Stop the referendum nonsense. Start a HEBREW forum for Israeli Jewish youth, and do five Hebrew programs every week that reach young Jews.
If you want to see why the Bolsheviks are so worried about Noam and Chaim, go to our Hebrew forum and see EDUCATED, INTELLIGENT, DEVOTED YOUNG JEWS WHO DAILY ARE SIGNING UP. LOOK AT THEIR POSTS. THIS IS THE BOLSHEVIKS' GREATEST NIGHTMARE.
Anway, the JTF forum is not like Revava. We don't ban people simply because they disagree with us. To your credit, Yekutiel, on your forum you also do not ban people for merely disagreeing. So you can continue posting here as you wish despite our differences of opinion.
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Yacov, I don't know the answer to your latest question. If you want, I'll ask Chaim.
Or if you prefer, maybe you should place the question near the top of your questions for the upcoming Ask JTF program. When it comes to what is happening on the ground in Israel, especially if it involves Hebrew, questions should be posed to Chaim rather than me because my Hebrew is very limited, although I am now taking Hebrew lessons.
I think you know that Chaim is always happy to answer your questions.
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Jsullivan, while Yukutiel goes on this site advocating unity (like the late R' Kahane hyd) you just resort to name calling and doing the "I better than thou" routine. Both JTF and Kahane.org are Kahanist organizations and we should work together. You have to realize that whether you agree with Yukutel or not, he was the right hand man of R' Kahane and his son for quite a while and I have no doubt he is continuing their campaign. You also have to realize the chalanges that Kahane.org faces which JTF does not face instead of poking fun at their exposure. Mainly, it is illegal to donate money to kahane.org since it was classified as a terrorist organization but JTF.org is not a terrorist organization so JTF gets more financial support (plus they have a cable show which means more exposure). Also you have to understand that Chaim lives in the U.S. so he can say and get away with much more than Yukutiel can since he lives in Israel. Also, since Chaim and yourself do not live in Israel like he does, he most probably has more Israeli support but this is mere speculation since I live in the US like you guys.
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Yekutiel is a Tzaddik for sure, and soo is Marzel, but sometimes I just see that we might be waisting unneccesary resources ( allthought in Shamayim its never goes to waist and every little effort counts), but materially campaigning and doing this and that is a waist of money ( expecially to what marzel does), and besides that its feeding into the system and making it as if its legit, expecially to what the yesha council proposed of "lets have a referendum" and "ze lo ma ha am rotze" this isnt what the people want" , these slogans make democracy and the majority into G-d , and dont even mention the torah of Israel ( The Real Law Of AM YISRAEL).
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Tzvi, that is exactly why some people are working towards the restoration of Malchut Beis David. To replace this accursed Democracy
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Thanks for the kind words but I do not profess to be a tazdik. I am a simple Jew, who happens to believe with a passion that Rav Kahane was right and that we are heading for destruction, and rapidly running out of time. It is for this reason that I risk arrest and harrassment to speak out on behalf of Jews. I know that what I say and do is legal and I also know that I will be persecuted for it. I am a big boy and i understand the consequences of speaking part of the Torah truth in our generation.
I do not know why I have been singled out to absorb the brunt of the persecution to unprecedented extremes such as the kennel closure and the closure of a personal business. I accept my fate with truel love of the Almighty and am honored to be a target of the forces of darkness.
I see Chaim and Noam and Baruch and HaIvri as friends. At the same time i reserve the right to criticise them if I think they are doing something wrong. I have worked with all of the above on many different fronts, and will continue to work with anyone who shares various goals.
When I mentioned that I do not know the exact programs of Chaim or Noam I meant it in the sense that Merzel has apolitical program to realize parts of his ideology. I have some small programs like the canine unit or the referendum. Publishing and speaking out is wonderful and I applaud all of those who do it. Not everyone is launching specific programs on the ground. I will probabaly be forced to hault most of my programs as well due to lack of funds.I did not mean it as a minus. People do what they can and speaking out is hard enough. Both Noam and Chaim have done plenty of time for deeds and speaking out. I have no problem with that and respect both of them for their dedication and siffering on behalf of the Jewish people.
I mean it is fine to attack Merzel for running for Knesset if that is what some people believe, however, it is an another story entirely when people are given an alternative on theground. I too will probabaly soon limit my activities to speaking out via internet, and through publications. That is risky enough and important enough. I meant no harm when I said that I do not know of any specific progams on the ground that they are leading to implement the ideas. I know that they say good things and support the Judean Initiative and other good programs, but support is not the same as launching programs on theground. There is a need for both and God bless those who have the wisdom and the ability to contribute in speech and in action within existing organizational infratsructures or from without to further common goals.
I sense people mocking Rabbi Kahane's referendum concept. And so let it be clear. The change that we all believe in will come one day. israel will become a Jewish state with pride and Judaism. How will this change come about? Will teh people force it through some sort of peaceful revolution surrounding the Knesset, demanding that change or will it be a bloody overthrow? I dont know. I do know that Rav Kahane wrote and said that he had preferred bringing about that change without a civil war and without bloodshed. I do hope that the warriors on this forum will not be too upset if that change happens to come first through the deligitimizing of the current regime through referendums that prove that the current corrupt regime do not enjoy the support of the majority of Jews in Israel. I do hope that if the referendum brings about that chnage or the beginning of the change that people the Kahanists will not ban the revolutionary changes that the referendum will bring!
It is wonderful to see people attack others, yet I dont see them leading the bloody revolution. It is wonderful to attack the referendom which is a utencil to bring about the proposed changes and to save Jewish lives. As if Rabbi Kahane said that referendum results that vioilates halacha should be followed. As if we follow our parents or an evil king if they tell us to violate halacha. Obviously such a referendum is not followed if the results contradict God's law. That doe snot mean that we dont use Knesset or referendum to try an dbring about the revolutionary changes we all believe in. It also does not mean that "majority rules" has no place in the halachic system. And even if there is no place in the halachic system as a system of government it does not mean the tool cant be used to overthrow the government. Federman, Rav Kahane Merzel Chaim and who not all supported Rav Kahane's runs for Knesset, back then. THUS DEMOCRACY CAN BE USED TO BRING ABOUT THE CHANGE!!
Also let us not confuse the immorality and anti Jewish ethics of democracy with other aspects of majority rule. Yes, Judaism opposes equality for all. Yes other pluralistic values are un and anti-Jewish. This does not mean that a majority of Jews who do or demand the right thing is a bad thing to strive for.
I want the majority of Jews to demand transfer, smashing hizbullah in Lebanon the way the Torah would obligate, not surrendering more land. Ironically, the majority of Israelis said exaclty that during and after the war in Lebanon. IT SEEMS ABSOLUTELY INSANE AND MIND BOGGLING THAT KAHANISTS WOULD SAY "LET US IGNORE THE INCREDIBLE NEW REALITY, AND LET US BABBLE ABOUT A CIVIL WAR THAT WE ARE NOT LEADING ANYHOW" it seems mind boggling and insane that we would not try and durect this new righteous massive protest movement to include real solutions based on faith in God and not in America! Instead we have the media and the leftist interest groups misdirecting the righteous protest into the direction of moronic National Commissions that will never address the real pain of the real pain of the nation an dthe real root of the problem.
And instead of Kahane people joining me to help direct this massive protest movemnt and to demand a referendum that will give a podium to the Jewish alternative and that will reach the correct conclusions, I have people teaching me that democracy is unJewish, as if I dont know that and as if Rav Kahane did not know that. What is the point? Protests that deligitimize the government or that broadcast our views is kosher, internet tirades that broadcast our position is kosher, but trying to mobilize the masses to topple the government peacefully is not????
I SAY WE SHOULD BE LEADING THIS PROTEST MOVEMENT AND SAYING:
YES TO A COMMISSION OF INQUIRY HEADED BY THE NATION AND NOT THE CORRUPT JUDGES!
Investigate the judges, the media together with the corrupt politicians!
For the nation has the right to determine its own destiny- and the judges will not indict themselves!
Only the people will ask the relevant questions, that no state sponsored commission of inquiry will have the guts to ask.
Who gave the legal seal of approval to the corrupt politicians to surrender Lebanon and Gaza?
How much did these land surrenders contribute to the morale of the terrorists?
Did these land surrenders enable the terrorists to kidnap the IDF soldiers and to hit deeper into Israel with their rockets? Were the lands surrendered used as bases of operation enabling the Hizbullah to build bunkers and more effectively kill Jews in Israel?
Who established the code of ethics incorporated into the IDF that brought about the needless death of so many Jews as a result of not attacking terrorists in civilian population centers?
How did the massive resources used to expel Jews last year impact the level of readiness of the IDF to combat the real enemy?
demanding the implementation of the findings of such a referendum that will incorporate the issue of Arab expulsion and annexation of Yesha could be our last chance to bring about the necessary Torah changes, peacefully, before it is too late.
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jdl4ever, don't give me this hypocritical "unity" talk. Yekutiel is the one who split the movement to begin with. We would have real unity today if not for what Yekutiel did.
I'm all for real unity. Not talk, but action.
Also, within Yekutiel's sugarcoated remarks is the claim that he has an action program on the ground and we don't.
It's the other way around. His referendum plan is not serious. THERE IS NO CHANCE THAT THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO PUT YEKUTIEL'S REFERENDUM ON THE ISRAELI BALLOT.
JTF - through Noam - distributes many thousands of dollars to Jewish families who live in the Hilltop Youth communities. I don't know if Yekutiel gives them any money - I hope he does. But I do know that many of these Jewish families are greatly helped by our assistance.
THAT IS A PROGRAM ON THE GROUND.
Also, JTF sponsors kollel yeshiva learning at Mearat HaMachpelah in Chevron. Rabbi Alba is giving daily shiurim in Talmud Yerushalmi at the Cave of the Patriachs. Rabbi Alba is a great Jewish hero who served two years in prison for writing that the Torah commands Jews to avenge Arab terrorist attacks. The Rabbi refused to cooperate with Shabak and was thrown in prison. The Rabbi also is one of the great authorities today on Mearat HaMachpelah and has written a very scholarly book on the subject.
JTF COVERS 100% OF THE COSTS OF THESE VITAL TORAH LESSONS THAT WILL, G-D WILLING, CREATE A NEW GENERATION OF HEROIC JEWISH SCHOLARS LIKE RABBI ALBA.
THAT IS A PROGRAM ON THE GROUND.
I could go on and on.
Yekutiel did start his canine program, which is an excellent idea. He deserves credit for that.
Yekutiel is welcome to come here and post his messages. As is Nahum. But if he is going to make certain claims, he should expect that we will respond.
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Forgive my ignorance. Who is Yekutiel?
I'm assuming that we're not speaking of the Rabbi from the first half of the 20th century.
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Forgive my ignorance. Who is Yekutiel?
Mike Guzofsky/Yekutiel Ben Yaakov
He runs kahane.org, voiceofjudea.com and the Jewish Legion.
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Is this the same Yekutiel that is posting here?
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Yes
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I strongly applaud the support of the "settlements" and Yeshivas and hilltops by JTF. Very nice. We are starting a new hill top near Tapuach and are in desperate need for funds for tents and to build a shul in memory of Rav Kahane there, if you know any people who would like to help. The programs you mentioned are all very nice as well. I was unaware that you had these programs in place to help implement the teachings and views expressed here. Now I know about the families on the hills an dthe Torah classes that you sponsor. These are al lvery nice programs and God should grant you much success teaching Torah and expanding those hilltops.
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jdl4ever, don't give me this hypocritical "unity" talk. Yekutiel is the one who split the movement to begin with. We would have real unity today if not for what Yekutiel did.
Actually, the split is very complicated and it started occuring during R' Kahane's life time. For example, the JDL in America started swaying in one direction and the Rav disagreed with it on some issues. R' Kahane's son's views were not liked by some Kahanists (like JTF I think) and that led to another split. Then after his son died, more splits happened. I respectfully think that the split you refer to happened during R' Kahane's life time when he decided to abolish the Kach party and move on to the revolution or referendum idea.
Yukutiel was just a follower of the Rabbi and his son and stuck to their ideas. It is splinter groups such as JTF that in fact split off. But who the hell cares about the split, it is ancient history and just brings up animosity. There are many paths that lead in the same direction .
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yekutiel suffice it to say i whole heartedly agree with you and your adoption of rav meir's endeavor to bring a bloodless revolution to am yisroel and eretz yisroel thru the referendum process... first of all it engenders love... ahavat yisroel not to right away go for the jugular... something shevet yehudah was punished for in their initial attacks upon shevet binyamin in sefer shoftim... (the whole vort not for now)... i concur... this IS the right approach... especially now after the failed war and the disasterous retreats from lebanon (twice now) and from gush katif and amona with dire threats of much, much more of the same to come... if we can do this without having to shed blood we should... especially since as you stated no one is stepping up to the plate thus far to launch either a coup d'etat from the army or an open revolt, rebellion and actual civil-war... so it is ludicrous to jump to this option alone and make it our primary focus and our l'chatchilla, preferred choice of action... this is absolutely absurd and makes us appear to be ridiculous and not to be taken serious... and we then just look like a bunch of raving lunatics and idiots... besides... rav meir's book and movement on this issue stipulates loud and clear... warns and threatens... that... EITHER AM YISROEL WILL BE ALLOWED TO VOTE UP OR DOWN ON ALL THIS MADNESS OR WE WILL RISE UP AND REBEL... AS THEN YOU (THE STATE) WILL HAVE GIVEN US (THE PEOPLE) NO OTHER VIABLE OPTIONS TO VOICE OUR OPINION AND MAKE OUR FEELINGS AND DESIRES FOR OUR LIVES AND THE SOUL OF OUR NATION AND LAND KNOWN, HEARD AND REGISTERED... PASHUT THIS IS THE PLAN AND THE WARNING TO THE POWERS-THAT-BE... besides rav meir wrote in that sefer that this is the natural outcome and course of history for all totalitarian and despotic regimes... EVENTUALLY THE PEOPLE ARE PUSHED TOO FAR... AND SICK AND DISGUSTED AND OUTRAGED THEY RISE UP TO FIGHT AND TAKE BACK WHAT IS RIGHTFULLY THEIRS... THEIR G-D GIVEN, INALIENABLE RIGHT TO BE FREE AND THE LIBERTY TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES AND MAKE THEIR WILL KNOWN AND AT LEAST TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION...
i will answer the rest of your queries that you raise for the inquiry yet to come to handle in a separate thread... herein we are speaking about revava... and i wish to conform to this central theme... as anyone seeing my profile over there i have been posting and otherwise involved with revava for a while now... i was absolutely shocked but grateful to discover the truth and to have been shown this site and thread by a chaver of mine from both forums... you know who you are and thanks... and oh yeah send me again here info how to put rav bulman's picture up on my new deal here...
i have been upset at my treatment over there on revava for sometime now... since the regime change bringing lt~kn or yissacher or elisha or whomever to power there to be in charge of moderating the site... it has seemed right from the start that he had it in for me... and i did not understand until today why... as i thought we were mostly pro-kahane people... and after i had met and befriended yisroel, david and lenny... i thought we were all together on the same page... but strange thiongs started to occur...
the last time i showed up to pick david up to take him around l.a. he did not use me... true my car was not available then... but he rented and i just assumed that he would ask me to drive for him... he did not... i was lucky to bump into him right before he departed to find out what had happened... no call and no goodbyes would have been forthcoming otherwise but for this bit of hashgacha pratis occuring..
next i learned as reported on arutz sheva that shortly after david's community service sentence was complete that tours of jewish-american and probably non-jewish college students as well... were being brought by the ministry oif tourism to tapuach to be greeted by and spoken to by david... and i said to myself... "wait a minute... hold on here... he was just punished for 'racism' and now the state is bringing him kids to have an influence on...?" no way did and does this make any sense given what i thought was the struggle going on between david and our guys with the slime erev-rav unjewish jews unfortunately running the roost in our land... why would they do that... would they have let rav meir or rav binyamin do that...? no way... of course not... so why all of a sudden are they letting david do so when after all he's binyamin's brother-in-law for crying-out-loud...? mindblowing...
and if all of the above was not bad enough... recently... very recently we have carried on a bitter and a passionate debate on revava on their shifting of policy to not mention rav meir's torah or political views by name but supposedly just continue them without quoting the kahane shita by name... besides the 'b'shem omru' difficulty here i just did not understand why all of a sudden it was decided that they were now taboo for discussion in their outreach and other politicasl and spiritual endeavors to fight for the jewish state and a torah state with har habayit as our main focus as revava's mission statement and david's new book on the subject seemed to imply as to their movement's goals and objectives... again things just were not adding up anymore...
and to conclude the problem segment of this post... i began to be banned for expressing my displeasure at the moderators iron-hand at cutting off debate on certain threads prematurely... or deleting my offerings... etc. it felt like a concerted effort and campaign to derail me from my communicating with the tzibur over there and no appeal to david seemed to work... especially puzzling since it wasdavid who asked me to begin writing for revava in the first place... besides today's banning... last time... david actually suggested that i start my own blog... which is strange 'cause no one really knows me or who i am since i write anonymously... so what good is my own spot if no one knows that i'm out there...? damn crazy stuff going on... no...?
i also hvae been a bit surprised up until now as to why revava had met with only minor resistance in their endeavors for har habayit... why for example are they not harassed like the kahanes were...? why do they get the kid-glove treatment of just the appearance of detaining and arresting without any of the harsh jail terms or riot-police beatings at their mass gatherings and thier attempts to go up en masse...? all of this bothered me... especially when yisroel told me he was called in to some police org. and told "you just have to stop this campaign and let this idea go..." that's it...? that's the extent of the interrogation...? almost begging him... and not ordering him...?
and so all taken together i think i now start to understand what's really going on here... they sold out... and their cover is the appearance of a movement for har habayit which is allowed to thrive in israel unmolested when the official policy of the gov't. is that all of this is off the table for official consideration as it along with the whole of yesha are and were on the chopping blocks of oslo... thus proving the existence of 2 secret clauses (unwritten) as barry chamish exposed for us... yerushalayim and har habayit to be given over to the vatican for control and for the erection of an eventual temple for a one-world religion domination (another time i will reveal here what i discovered to be the root meaning of this concept)... and of course the other hidden agenda, secret clause for a palestinian state on 95+% of yesha as barak revealed to us in his failed initiative for
"peace"... and not just on the 65 or so% stipulated in the above-board written clauses of the original document of oslo...
and there you have it... when they say they are working for a beit hamikdash... it is the british/vatican model of one... a satanic, masonic idolatrous one... and this is what they really mean to refer to... as per ben gurion's original plan and mandate to bring to pass for the then british-controled world order back in the 40"s... see on-line the interview he gave to look magazine or life... wherein he "predicted" this structure... (really he knew all along about these plans of the nwo)... and so our two heroes david and yisroel have sold out or bought in for whatever they were ooffered to control the debate on this issue and steer it toward the nwo direction just as the yesha council has been doing all along legabi the west bank and gaza...
and this is why they are also striving so hard to distance themselves from the kahane legacy and to win over and to co-opt the strong protestant, evangelical american-chrisitian population who are pushing for and have been demonstrating their total and near-unanimous backing of the jews in this struggle and war over the position and side of the disgusting, filthy arabs as well as their on-going rallying to our settler cause over the slime erev rav gov't. policy to judenrein the country and these goyim have been doing so for quite a while now and in ever-increasing and greater numbers and in crescendoing and ever-higher pitched and shrill voices... scaring the pants off of the powers-that-be here in the u.s. and in israel as to who will prevail here... because with their throwing their support for our claim to eretz yisroel we just might have a chance... unless the wrong jewish "leadership" wins over their confidence and garners their power, support and clout... and so revava unsuspected by everyone... are actually working against us as they have been sent in to make it appear that they are the central address for this crucial movement in order to blunt its powerful effect and significant and sizeable political and economic clout which should be engendered and employed by us to enable us to finally realize our dreams... ansd with their christian numbers and with our jewish citizenry all over the world and in israel pulling together we should be empowered to carry the day... but instead revava is succeeding to deflect and to stimie this powerful union and jugernaut from even taking off and being launched... and instead of our dreams for the third and final beit hamikdash coming true... coming to pass... they will subvert everything and deny us victory and just make themselves and the other insiders of revava wealthy and powerrful instead and sell us all down the river... and in the end rationalizing all of this to be for the best... thus really.... actually... they are all fast becoming downright traitors!!!
unfortunately this is the conclusion i have been forced to draw from all that has been happening on the scene there and in light of my personal experiences on revava's site... it saddens me to no end to think the worst of these jews but i cannot and i will not shy away from whatever the truth exposes to the light of day nor flee from the ramifications and consequences which this truth brings forth naturally from the weight of its own evidence and from the depths of its own integrity and ability to put all of the pieces of the puzzle together and answer all the enigmas and finally start makeing some clear sense out of all of the pure insanity swirlling around us these past 13-16 years... and this latest breakthrough works for me to help sort out key problems which otherwise to date have remained fathomless events that i have been unable to perceive and to clearly penetrate their seemingly inscrutable vaneer which until now cast a totally different perspective on things which now appears to have been altered and to be forced finally to emerge from the shadows of obscurity where they formerly have been purposively laid and hidden... sometimes like today seemingly miraculous and out of nowhere comes new clarity in my pursuit of truth and my pursuit of our people's salvation... and each and every time these new perceptions yield fresh perot which always cast the same strong light on the hidden agenda(s) deceptivelly being kept from us little guys... the hamoan am... which we are continuely denied access to and which to our minds and hearts we are never consulted and to which when a lit bit more of the truth is finally discovered... grants us yet further breakthroughs to overcome many more of the obstacles put in our way by their purposeful acts of deceit against us... of attempting to leave us in the dark until it is too late for us to do anything to save our selves and our cause... and thus each new revelation of truth sheds stronger light and truth in its wake driving sheker back underground and righting our sense of control and perception so that we can continue to fight for our peoiple and our homeland... and our torah and our G-d... amen... boruch Hashem!!!
and in conclusion here... as one great author once penned... "let justice be done though the heavens fall..." and so let our erstwhile heroes lenny, yisroel and david fall if they have failed to live up to the kiddush Hashem and mesirat nefesh which our cause which is true demands and requires of us all... and if they have sinned against our cause... the cause of rav meir and rav binyamin... the cause for which they gave the full measure of their final devotion and which they both paid the penultimate self-sacrifice... and which above all is the cause of our G-d... if they have sinned... let them and a thousand like them all fall (myself included if i too dare sin against the cause, G-d forbid)... so let them all fall and let not a one of us shed a tear nor feel sorry for their betrayal and perfidy... for they will have brought their downfall upon themselves by their own volition even if only done under extreme duress from all of the various factions of the slime which sad to say rules this earth... so let all of their reputations be broken but let not perish one iota of the cause which is the essence of our Divine destiny as jews... nik. out...
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Yaakov to be fair, the people on the revava forum got fed up with you becuase every sentence you posted was from Jtf and you spammed alot which is annoying. ( not that im saying negative about jtf , but that some 1 spamming it again and again, made some ppl hate the spamming and bc of it jtf.
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sorry it took me so long to conclude my first piece... but tell me... why doesn't this rise to the top when a fresh reply is added...? especially if it is the hotest thread currently going here...? nik.
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other subjects have been made sticky so they stay at the top
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thanks... n.
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Jsullivan,
when you say you are not abou talk, just action, what exactly do you do. with all due respect. i am not tryin gto undermine you or anythin gof that sort i am just curious as to what you guys actually do.
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i have some more to say on revava...
a few other things stick out in my mind from my dealings with david and yisroel...
a) yisroel lost a copy of my book... said he dropped it off at ohr somayach but they said they never received it... then i gave him another to hand deliver to the rav in quest. house and he sat on it for over a year... finally i asked him to return it to me which he did... turned out i had lost my one last copy... but anyhow... i had told him that my book an historical-novel on the life of avraham avinu... titled: "moriah revisited" was meaningful to adress all of today's problems between the world and israel... that all of history is nimrod vs. avraham over and over again in the guise of esav vs. yaakov... and so he promptly "lost" the first copy and forgot or had no time to deliver the second attempted one... my rav will read it and hopefully help me get it published...
b) david, yis. from revava and matt from bnai elim were going nuts last summer to get on the american zionist something or other and be given a voice in the world zio. org. and when i confronted them as to what a monumental waste of time and chillul hashem this effort was they said we want them to turn us away to make them appear biased against us....
first of all... after '88 and rav meir's banning we don't need anymore proof that secular zionism is afraid of us and banned us to keep us from power and that they will never let us back thru the door... not even this kind of back door...
second... they wanted so much of our time for this "crucial" name gathering campaign and petition drive. ... that it was taking away from efforts to stop the gush katif and amona debacles... which i never understood as to why they were doing it... now i know... to sabotage all of our efforts to get anything done about keeping our settlements...
third... their whole campaign to go up on har habayit... admittedly important and not a distraction from the yesha issue as yerush. is part of yesha... but everytime there is a major demonstration yis. and david never get thru to be there when things might turn ugly... they are both always conviently stopped and detained and they go so early to try and get into the kotel area that they are easy to spot and arrest... why not go up with the masses and try and sneak thru...?
and now for the clincher... in a moment of what i now know to be an unguarded moment where yis. let down his defenses and offered me his real truthful feelings... he said and if he denies this he is lying... he said: "they should all just give it up and the best thing for them would be if they were made to leave and come back into the real world and have to get real jobs..." etc. something along these lines... he said this about david and tapuach and all the settlements... and i was shocked... then why is he risking his life to raise money to save these frontier towns...? it made no sense and i dismissed the statement as his fatigue showing from the long haul of being on the road... but now we see perhaps the real agenda... the actual truth coming out...
because anyway... why does the shabak need a street-tough yeshivah boy from queens to watch the israeli-left for them...? this is what he says he was doing in the secret service... bull... he was recruited because for whatever sick reason his real sympathies lie with the satanic murderers of our people and the slime around the world who make the is. gov't erev rav filth do what they do... and yis. also told me he was guilty of many a thing or two growing up in ny he wasn't proud of... so his cred. as a member in good standing with the faithful trying to defend Hashem's holy land is now in question and both he and david have alot of explaining to do...
besides the abysmal way they run that forum of theirs... nik. out for now...
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Nahum, if you want to know what JTF actually does, I suggest that you start by rereading my answer on this thread. You ask a fair question, but I feel that I already answered it. In my opinion, nothing could be more important for Israel than the things I describe in my original answer.
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Jonathan Shabbat
Hero Member
Posts: 4667
State of Judea Now!
Elisha's Make Believe Rules
« on: October 21, 2006, 10:29:30 PM »
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In light of some recent events I feel a need to clarify a few things about this forum and its purpose.
Revava operates this forum to serve the needs of like- and not-so-like-minded people who wish to discuss topics relating to Israel and the Jewish people. The forum exists to foster discussion and intellectual stimulation, not to 'rally the troops'. Revava is doing us a favor by providing us for a place to exchange ideas, presumably because it is in its best interest to foster such discussions. Note that the leaders of Revava themselves rarely post here.
Forum members need not have anything to do with Revava. I, a moderator of this forum, have nothing whatsoever to do with the organization. I am not involved with Revava or its leaders in any way, shape or form. I do not represent or necessarily ascribe to Revava's views, nor does Revava represent me. To me this forum is a place to discuss ideas. That the word 'revava' appears in the web address means nothing to me. If these posters were to relocate to another forum I would follow them.
This means that nobody need justify any sort of heterodoxy on his part. It also means that assigning Revava responsibility for anything written here is as senseless as expecting the owners of Rotter to be accountable for what other people write there. An organization can distribute free drinks; that doesn't automatically turn anyone who accepts a drink into an activist, affiliation which requires the organization to account for any of his actions. Views aired at Hyde Park don't represent the British government and neither does this forum represent Revava. This forum is likewise a public service and no more, although I assume it is helpful for Revava to have a community that it can reach when necessary.
Again, this forum is a place for discussions, not a party convention. There is no 'party line' for people to fall in line with, nor is Revava obligated to defend or explain anything written by a forum member.
Hopefully this message will (1) make it easier for newcomers to settle in, (2) clear things up for those who mistakenly believe everything written here to be the official position of the Revava organization.
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Ma'aleh Adumim - Provisional Capital of The State of Judea.
Jonathan Shabbat
Hero Member
Posts: 4667
State of Judea Now!
Re: Elisha's Make Believe Rules
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2006, 10:31:17 PM »
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They recently banned a long time member who has since relocated to JTF and this member posted all his old posts on a 6 page thread at JTF. Elisha drives away people and they turn to Elisha's self-declared enemies. He is just helping the people he works against.
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Ma'aleh Adumim - Provisional Capital of The State of Judea.
es
Administrator
Jr. Member
Posts: 76
Re: Elisha's Make Believe Rules
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2006, 07:18:52 AM »
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1. I dont know why this is being brought up here. we have already established that revava and its affiliates are a bunch of frauds theives and do everything in their power to harm important Jewsih causes and discredit important Jewish life saving efforts.
1. it seems elisha crossed haivris line when he banned nikmat dam. nikmat dam was a big supporter of haivri/revava and was recently banned by elisha so now haivri is trying to get him back by making elisha say publically that revava is not connected to the forum or that they do them a favor by letting them post there and so on as if haivri isnt in control. yada yada yada.
everyone knows that haivri is in full control of the forum and elisha was appointed by haivri to be moderator so i dont think that one will work and besides it seems as if nik is a genuine guy that really wants to help
jews so it makes sense that his place is not with revava.
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Nahum
Moderator
Sr. Member
Posts: 378
Re: Elisha's Make Believe Rules
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2006, 01:22:48 PM »
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that makes no sense at all. what is the point of the organization having a forum then? why would they be connected? looks like elisha made a boo boo. thats what happen swhen you give a power hungry freak to much control. way to go elisha! kol hakavod! this should be a lesson to haivri for the future; if you hire someone destructive, eventually they will destroy you.
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es
Administrator
Jr. Member
Posts: 76
Re: Elisha's Make Believe Rules
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2006, 04:30:15 PM »
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its not like haivri is any better than elisha but who cares anyway. more important things to deal with
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Jonathan Shabbat
Hero Member
Posts: 4667
State of Judea Now!
Re: Elisha's Make Believe Rules
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2006, 06:01:29 PM »
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Elisha said there is no party line at Revava's forum. Then why does he delete messages that mention Yekutiel or JTF?
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Ma'aleh Adumim - Provisional Capital of The State of Judea.
Nahum
Moderator
Sr. Member
Posts: 378
Re: Elisha's Make Believe Rules
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2006, 06:43:08 PM »
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his whole last message was just a ploy to get one of their contributors back on the boat. he realized he screwed up and this was his retarded way of apologizing. just another revava scheme.
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nikmatdam
Newbie
Posts: 2
one of my earliest rebeiim... rav nacman bulman zt
Re: Elisha's Make Believe Rules
« Reply #7 on: Today at 12:29:40 PM »
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hi everyone i'm going to be here as well thanks to torahzionist telling me this site is now cleansed of filth... kach etc. is still not correct? anyway... as i posted on jtf... my response in brief to elisha's recently re-stated rules over at revavomit is as follows... they are all utter lies and prevaracations... as i never ever told anyone to stop posting on that site nor did i ever demand allegiance by anyone there to rav meir's line (as i was not in charge there and this was not my right)... nor would i have done this had i been in command... but i wouldn't have begun a site in the interset of all viewpoints either... for if i were to start one... i would have stated from the beginning: "this is for the promotion of pro-kahane ideas... anyone disagreeing and wishing to challenge us... may do so by all means... we are not afraid of any of you... but we are not here for you... we know he was right and so we are here to continue the fight and struggle... etc." (you get the idea)... by virtue of the fact that this is not so at a site supposedly begun by the brother-in-law of rav binyamin hy"d should have been a glaring and flaming red flag for me... i'm sorry i was so naive...
anyway back to elisha... so it is a lie that these rules needed re-iterating as i never violated them... i was banned for accusing yby and others of being plants and for calling the israeli power-structure and gov't. "slime"/ something i had done repeatedly for months on end without reprisal until last weekend... also the plant thing... i don't know about yby for sure... but it turns out the whole damn site is a plant... so i was dead-on... thank G-d i'm not dead period for being so stupid and so trusting... NEVER AGAIN!!!
lastly... if as he said... this site was open to all viewpoints... then why was i banned...? don't i have just as much right to express my opinion as anyone else...? and yet i was banned and harrassed there constantly... so he and they are all a bunch of big fat liars... period... end of statement by me on this for now...
but btym... i was really banned for angrily challenging the lunacy of a newbie goy... rory blackshyster or something who must be some new force and source of mullah for them and he didn't want this guy to bail because i could tear his arguments apart in my sleep... that is the real reason why i am banned and why david hasn't even bothered as before to go to bat for me or to even if he agrees this time to at least have the courage to answer my appeal to him directly like a man... coward!!!! they are all such utter slime just like the slime they work for... such a shame though... i really regarded him and yisroel and lenny as brothers... i thought the world of them... that is why i'm so livid now... they manipulated my love for the cause and my dedication and love for the kahanes... and for this alone i know they will all burn long and hard... for this deception and genevat da'at... nik. glad to be here as well... out...
« Last Edit: Today at 12:39:27 PM by nikmatdam » Report to moderator 68.127.107.216
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"i am nikmatdam... humble and imperfect servant of Hashem... i yearn for redemption but i absolutely ache for Divine justice and vengeance..."
nikmatdam
Newbie
Posts: 2
one of my earliest rebeiim... rav nacman bulman zt
Re: Elisha's Make Believe Rules/ not just frat pranks...
« Reply #8 on: Today at 01:27:32 PM »
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i need for you all to understand... i didn't go seeking out revava to join... they came to me in l.a. thru a mutual friend... i took them around town for several trips over several years... david had me write blurbs of their trips... and a book review for his har habayit book... and he personally asked me several different times to begin posting on his forum... i was there solely by his request... and because i thought we were tight... brothers-in-arms... etc. and as such... not that i should have been accorded special, preferential treatment... i was never looking for that... nor any recognition... this is why i am anon. but to be treated worse than everyone else...?! and now to learn that really david was directing this treatment of me behind the scenes thru elisha... this is very painful for me to have to accept... but it has to be the truth... i was betrayed right from the start... and they played with me... toyed with me... they went thru the ruse of having me banned and my appealing to david for re-instatement several times... at least on 7 or so separate occassions... this should be a warning to all of you... they are not just "a do-nothing plant org. to siphon-off funds and energy for the cause..." they are dangerous subversives whose orders are to sabatoge and destroy any hope of our succeeding in saving eretz yisroel and along with her... am yisroel... we are all in dire straits and in imminent peril and danger due to their existence and the evil power of their handlers and the slime erev rav gov't behind all of them... and the slime world gov.'t of amer. and britain over all of these... take stock... take a lesson from me... have nothing what-so-ever to do with them... they have to be shunned and exposed for the fraud which they are or they will hurt us all very badly and damage if not thoroughly destroy the dream we all share and work for... nik. out...
Report to moderator 68.127.107.216
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"i am nikmatdam... humble and imperfect servant of Hashem... i yearn for redemption but i absolutely ache for Divine justice and vengeance..."
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Printable View This message is not flagged. [ Flag Message - Mark as Unread ] To: [email protected]
Subject: New Personal Message: Rory Blackhand
From: "Revava Discussion Board" <[email protected]> View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 09:01:46 +0000
You have just been sent a personal message by Yissachar on Revava
Discussion Board.
IMPORTANT: Remember, this is just a notification. Please do not reply
to this email.
The message they sent you was:
Shalom Nik,
1. There are ways to speak to people and ways not to speak to people.
When a newcomer to the forum takes initiative and opens a thread you
can't jump down his throat and ream him out as you did. You've gotta learn
to use Darkei Noam.
2. This isn't a Kahane forum. People can disagree with his teachings
freely without it being condemned as heresy.
3. When your post doesn't earn a response there's no reason to make a
post that says "Why are you guys listening to me??" That's not far from
spamming.
Kol Tuv.
o.k. so this started our little tet-a-tet... i had written in response a biting satirical article as to why this guy is off his rocker... but within reason... i just told him his "jordan is palestine" concept was not original and not acceptable... so then when yiss. sent me the above i backed down... and told him "fine"... but then when i went back to the thread and saw my response had been deleted in full and not just edited... i became outraged and began blasting away at yiss.' fascist streak... doing so for the umpteenth time and then he threatened to can me for good and said that this time even david haivri would'nt be be able to save me..."
well when i saw that e-mail to me i saw red... went completely livid... and i lashed back even harsher and posted each and every one of my diatribes and rants openly on the traitorous revava board (knowing full-well as i was doing so that i was going to be immediately banned for doing so)... nik.
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Yahoo!My Yahoo!Mail Make Y! your home pageYahoo! SearchSearch:Welcome, nikmatdam
To: [email protected]
Subject: New Personal Message: Re: Rory Blackhand
From: "Revava Discussion Board" <[email protected]> View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 08:00:33 +0000
You have just been sent a personal message by Yissachar on Revava
Discussion Board.
IMPORTANT: Remember, this is just a notification. Please do not reply
to this email.
The message they sent you was:
This forum is meant to discuss ideas. The rules are at the top of the
page so that there won't be new threads dedicated to discussing those
rules or other matters relating to proper conduct.
Opening new threads to air your grievances is no different than
spamming. Write whatever you want to whoever you want via private messages.
Complain about me to the other mods, accuse newbies of heresy, whatever
you want - but through private messages. Anything that goes on the
public forum needs to be fit for the public, and frankly the public deserves
better than some of the posts you make.
and so then he sent me this... nik.
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To: [email protected]
Subject: New Personal Message: Re: Rory Blackhand
From: "Revava Discussion Board" <[email protected]> View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:33:46 +0000
You have just been sent a personal message by Yissachar on Revava
Discussion Board.
IMPORTANT: Remember, this is just a notification. Please do not reply
to this email.
The message they sent you was:
why is that one of the rules...? what if it is true and can be
verified...? you are a sad loser and you are destroying the free
exchange of ideas here... just my low take on your authoritarian dictatorship
here which you said i could make privately but i should be allowed as
is my right as a free human being and jew to make public... privacy
rules in this setting only protect the guilty and the evil...
as far as i'm concerned you can go take a flying leap... as for me... i
will continue to write whatever i damn please... whatever i believe to
be true and important for my fellow jews to hear and i don't give a rip
if you "ban me for good" because if you do it will just be proof
positive of my contention that this site is being tampered with by the slime
gov't. and then as a matter of course this site won't be and is not
worth a damn and so it is not worthy of my posting here... so stick that
in your craw and choke on it awhile... nik. in a rage... out...
No, you will NOT write 'whatever you damn please', because this is a
forum of dozens of people and isn't your private club. I'm all in favor
of a free exchange of ideas, but your posts aren't "ideas" - they're
vicious rants.
i was banned they said for calling the is. gov't slime and for accusing some posters of being gov. plants...
to wit i dashed off the above little gem and received this kind message in return... and in it he gives you an inkling as to what viciousness i sunk to in blasting him in the first place to get both deleted and banned all in one fell-swoop... and so people... there you have it... ta... nik.
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Jsullivan is the only one RIGHT ON THE SPOT here.
Chaim Ben Pesach DENIED the story told by Yekutiel that Marzel and Kach Board were fired by Rabbi Kahane.
Yekutiel on his forum blames Marzel, Itamar Ben Gvir and David HaIvri for being destructive.
Chaim Ben Pesach and other high ranking KACH officials all say Yekutiel was the main reason for the split.
UNITY is a great concept. But at the end of the day someone has to GIVE UP SOME GROUND
to another so UNITY can be formed, and some people's PRIDE just can't let them do that.
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that is bull. yekutiel never said anyone was fired. you hear only what you want to fulez. he said rabbi kahane quit kach and attempted to dismantle the board and marzel itamar etc... decided to stay on. he never made mention that marzel nor itamar were destructive. you are making things up that are false and pitting people against each other. people like you scare me. people that instigate fights from within ar truley frighting. last thursday i was picked up and interrogated by the shin bet. among other things, they were trying to egg me on, pit me on, and antagonize me against my enemies. even those whom i despite and hate with boiling blood i would never discuss with the shin bet. the leader of the shin bet was famous for what he did to th plo. he caused such in fighting and splits that it weakened the organization. this is what they are trying to do to us. this is why elisha from the revava forum is most likely an agent. he is doing the exact same thing you are doing except on a much higher level where it actually effects what we do. causing more infighting like what you are trying to do is very hurtful and is not beneficial what so ever. i do not believe that you are an agent what so ever and i honestly believe that you have good intentions at hand.
yekutiel has only good words to say about chaim and the jtf. what your organization represents is vital to the lifeline of jews in america. keep on and stay positive.
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LIES are always the wrong way to go.
Here you have been exposed as a liar, Mr. Nahum.
A) Yekutiel ALWAYS tells the story about Marzel being fired. Rejecting this FACT
is ILLOGICAL and only hurts your cause.
B) Yekutiel DID SAY Baruch Marzel and Itamar Ben Gvir actions were destructive.
On his own forum he wrote "I was opposed to that TV interview that HaIvri gave and
to the other interviews given by Ben Gvir and Marzel concerning the shul. I saw them as destructive.
C) Who is causing FIGHTING and SPLITS ? ALL KACH or Kahane Chai officials including Chaim Ben Pesach himself
say Yekutiel was the one responsible for FIGHTING and SPLITS. By your logic Yekutiel is a SHin Bet agent.
D) LIES never work. Everyone knows about bad language some people speak about good and decent
activists who sacrifice their FREEDOM for the CAUSE such as Noam Federman. Denial is futile.
THOSE WHO COVER THEIR SINS SHALL NOT SUCCEED, THOSE WHO REPENT ARE FORGIVEN.
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Ask me one question at a time and I will answer it as best I can.
I dont think Marzel and Itamar are destructive. I think they are God fearing wonderful Jews. Do I agree with them on every issue? No.
Was Marzel and the Kach staff fired in Oct 1990? I am afraid so. It was supposed to be implemented Dec 1990. That is a fact. Period.
Was Itamar fired in 1990? How could he have been fired, he was probabaly in diapers. Learn the facts.
Did Rav Kahane split form his staff and board of Directors in Oct 1990? Absolutely.
Was it the first time Rav Kahane had problems with the board of directors of movements he started? No. Chaim can give you more deatils on various JDL plots and times that Rav Kahane left or was removed from JDL.
Am I telling the truth? Yes. Can I prove it? I sure can. Why are Kach people who were fired upset when I remind them? Well, wouldnt you be upset if you were fired and people reminded you of that unpleasnat fact?
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Was Itamar fired in 1990? How could he have been fired, he was probabaly in diapers. Learn the facts.
According to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Gvir), Itamar was born in 1977.
Is this information incorrect or are you claiming that he was wearing diapers when he was 13?
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Concerning the shul and the media insanity. Basically, at an early stage of the building of the shul in Tapuach West, HaIvri, Marzel and Itamar Ben Gvir decided to take advantage of the lovely photo ops they can have from the huge shul being built on the hill. They all decided to place interviews and to give the SCOOP to various reporters. You see that's how it owrks with the media and with thoe who thrive on media coverage and gimmicks. You give info to teh media, and they give you info and a picture and a headline.
Suddenly I hear about the interviews and their content. The right wing extremists are building a college where Jews will be taught to kill Arabs or whatever. I remember hearing about How Marzel and Ben Gvir would be professors in teh college when i turned on the radio. I was building a shul in memory of the Kahanes and did plan on setting up an international center. I did not plan on giving the authorities false and exagerated information that they could use to bury us at that stage. People who had nothing to do with the shul, the planning, the goals decide on their own to make headlines at the expense of the unfinished project. I thought it was wrong and destructive.
I dont blame them for the destruction. The Israeli government neeed to be blamed. That does not mean that I dont feel their behavior was wrong, and it does not mean that I dont think their behavior was destructive. When you chasse cameras you tend to get burned, from time to time. If you chase cameras on your own projects, that is your judgement call. In thi scase it was not their call. This is one of the reasons that I limit their involvment in the planning stages of important and major projects that I organize. And when I dont, I always learn to regret it.
I am looking to do things, not to read about it. Yossie Dayan once gave a lecture and Marzel supported his conclusions when he said, if you did something and nobody read about it in the papers then you did nothing. But if you did nothing and people think you did something, then you did something.
I wanted to build a Kahane center not to have a shortlived gimmick or headline. Sorry, I dont agree with their philosophy. Sure, Rav Kahane used the media and gimmicks but that was not his essence. The moment people get carried away with the fame and the lights an dthe camera it comes at the expense of getting things done, especially in Israel,where the vultures will cut us down whenever they can.
I know the truth hurts. However, it hurts more when the deception blows up in ones face.
I believe in doing. For five years we supplied dogs to vulnerable towns and trained canines and volunteer handlers as well as security people from all over Yesha. We even gave 3-4 dogs to Noam Federman. Tjis was not a media gimmick. This was real life and is real life in spite of the government raids and confiscations. We prevented terrorist attacks, with God's help. It is a program on the ground. I am not bragging and i will be the frist to tell you it is a small project but a real project. It survives because of the dedication of people who truly wish to save lives in Israel. It is boring to clean sh..t all day.
The referendum is another project on the ground. Over 100,000 Jews participated thus far. It is longterm and boring, but more and more Jews will sign on to "overthrow" the government through a referendum. It is a platform for us to articulate the Jewish alternative.
I am not opposed to gimmicks but that does not mean that I think that the gimmick approach is teh only approach. It doe snot mean that I wish to forfeit the programs that we are active in implementing on the ground. I respect Marzel, Revava, and the others but that does not mean it is my way or that I should stop these programs that were initially launched by Rav Kahane, because Marzel or others are convinced that Rav Kahane was wrong on the referendum etc..
On this one, I prefer to side with Rav Kahane and his approach. Dont accuse me of making a aplit. Accuse rav Kahane.
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yes he was not wearing diapers in 1990, but he also was not chairman of the board of Kach, or a staff member at 13. Did he ever meet Rav Kahane?
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Yekutiel says KACH board was fired by Rabbi Kahane?
Yekutiel claims Chaim Ben Pesach is a LIAR when he decisively says the opposite?
We also know that different conspiracy theories surfaced some time after the murder of Rabbi Kahane
claiming Rabbi Kahane was not murdered by a VICIOUS ARAB NAZI SCUMBAG El-Sayyid Nosair but by the
KACH BOARD which was allegedly fired by the Rabbi just before the murder.
Who was the instigator of these rumors that caused such vicious and baseless accusations?
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whoa back up guys... start from the beg. what went down and who did what when...? line up all the factions and the characters in this drama on one page and describe what they did and who they are trying to be today... nik.
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At a time when Israel is in such grave danger, I don't think we should be wasting so much time on this bickering. I bet that if Chaim saw this thread, he would ask Yacov or me to lock it.
JTF has made its position clear. We disagree with what Yekutiel did after the Rabbi's murder. We support the former Kach movement.
On the other hand, Yekutiel has made his position clear.
What else is there to add? People can decide for themselves whom they agree with.
We do not want to continue this endless argument, and we hope that Yekutiel feels the same way.
We have differences of opinion with Yekutiel, but he is a good Jew. We have no desire to keep feuding about the past.
Let's start focusing on what we can do to save Israel.
At least, that's my opinion.
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amen!
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Dear All,
At least if you want to bad mouth me let me know, so I can get a good laugh. If you really have something to say then call me up we'll meet, I'll buy you coffee, (the Shabak gives me a coffee allowance). It no fun discovering this a month later.
I have a great business idea. Let's make a twist-a-plot book ex:if you like haivri turn to page 34 if not then page 76. Or if you think the referendom is good move back 4 pages if not go ahead four pages. Or if you a kahanist turn to page 12 if not use the provided knife in the back of the book to kill yourself.
You guys are great!!!
Yisroel Meir Cohen