JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: edu on August 26, 2013, 02:43:07 PM
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I am not an expert in the Sephardic version of the Jewish prayer book but in at least the Ashkenazik version, we say the following prayer on the Sabbath after the Torah reading.
Artscroll translation:
Father of compassion. Who dwells on high, in His powerful compassion may He recall with compassion the devout, the upright, and the perfect ones; the holy congregations who gave their lives for the Sanctification of the Name - who were beloved and pleasant in their lifetime and in their death were not parted [from G-d].They were quicker than eagles and stronger than lions to do their Creator's will and their Rock's desire. May our G-d remember them for good with the other righteous of the world. May He, before our eyes, exact retribution for the spilled blood of his servants, as it is written in the Torah of Moses, the man of G-d: 'O nations, sing the praise of His people'. And by your servants, the prophets, is written saying: 'Though I cleanse [the enemy] - their bloodshed I will not cleanse when Hashem dwells in Zion'. And in the Holy Writings it is said: "Why should the nations say, 'Where is their G-d?' Let there be known among the nations, before our eyes, revenge for your servants spilled blood". And it says: 'For the Avenger of blood has remembered them; He has not forgotten the cry of the humble'. And it says: 'He will judge the corpse-filled nations, He will crush the leader of the mighty land. From a river along the way he shall drink therefore he will proudly lift his head.
The prayer begs that we see with our eyes the vengeance against our enemies.
But what does MK Uri Ariel say:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/171283 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/171283)
“On this day, although it is a day of great joy, I cannot refrain from mentioning what is happening in the north in our neighbor, Syria,” said Ariel, referring to the reports of a deadly chemical attack by regime troops outside of Damascus.
“Of all people, we, who cried out, and have been asking to this day, 'how could the world have been silent?' – We, as people; we, as Jews, cannot remain silent in the face of genocide, no matter who it is and where it is. And I say to ourselves – first of all, to ourselves, as Jews; as citizens of Israel; as a minister in the government of Israel, there will not be another genocide. We will not allow it,” he said.
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I agree with Ariel on this issue. The issue is that those who were killed are not the enemy. Surely we rejoice when the glory of Hashem is revealed with the destruction of the wicked. But can it be said that the innocent women and children who were killed in this horrific attack were the enemies of Israel?
This was not the hand of Hashem which killed these innocent people. This was not the glory of G-d which was revealed when Assads wicked forces decided to kill his people. I stand 100% against those who hate Hashem and his chosen nation, but I do not believe that those who died in this chemical weapons attack deserved to die.
If they were muslim brotherhood leaders and members I would rejoice. But this is not the case.
I believe we have a duty to say that it is wrong to kill innocent children. I don't believe that we can say that all Syrians are Amalek, whom we have a duty to utterly destroy, and we will rejoice that Hashems glory will be revealed. But as I said I do not believe that Assad is acting righteous by killing them.
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Needless to say that I don't agree that we should prevent the genocide of all people, especially those who are obviously Amelekian in their outlook.
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Why do you think the Torah commands us to not hate the Egyptian in our hearts? Even though Egypt was one of the worst antisemitic places on the planet and enslaved us for 200+ years. The Torah clearly doesn't want us to hate the Egyptian because we lived in Egypt and because of Hakat Hatov we must not hate all Egyptians as a result of having been strangers in their land. Should we hate all Syrians even though there were thriving Jewish communities in Syria?
http://www.torah.org/learning/ravfrand/5758/kiseitzei.html
"You shall not hate an Edomite, for he is your brother; and you shall not hate an Egyptian, for you were a stranger in his land." [Devorim 23:8]. Three generations after converting they are allowed to marry into the Jewish people.
Rashi points out that the Egyptians were not righteous people - we suffered greatly at their hands. Why then do we let them marry into our nation? This teaches us, Rashi says, that it is worse to cause a person to sin than it is to kill him.
Midyan hired Bilaam and caused the Jewish people to have illicit relations with the daughters of Moab. As a result of causing the Jewish people to sin, Moab deserved a worse fate than the Egyptians did for actually killing Jewish people. "For one who kills a person, takes him out (only) from this world; whereas one who corrupts causes him to be totally wiped out (even from the world to come)".
The way the Torah deals with one who causes others to sin is stricter than the way it deals with any other type of transgression. The classic example of one who causes someone else to sin is the Meisis (the one who attempts to convince others to worship idolatry) [Devorim 13:7-12]. In unprecedented treatment, the Torah tells us not to have mercy upon the Meisis. Even though usually Beis Din always tries to find leniencies for an accused, here we are told to 'throw the book at him'. He requires no warning and we are allowed to entrap him by hiding witnesses and so forth. The reason is because he tried to make people sin, to take them away from G-d, to take them off the right track.
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I agree with Ariel on this issue. The issue is that those who were killed are not the enemy. Surely we rejoice when the glory of Hashem is revealed with the destruction of the wicked. But can it be said that the innocent women and children who were killed in this horrific attack were the enemies of Israel?
Where do you get it from that members of the syrian nation are not our enemies? Do you believe the chemical attacks targeted only women and children specifically? No it was simply an attack on a largepopulace. Largescale attacks always hit everyone including some women and children. The women who together with the men indoctrinate the children as the next generation who will fight jihqd against israel, future terrorists definitely are our enemies. The more syrians who perish the better.
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Why do you think the Torah commands us to not hate the Egyptian in our hearts? Even though Egypt was one of the worst antisemitic places on the planet and enslaved us for 200+ years. The Torah clearly doesn't want us to hate the Egyptian because we lived in Egypt and because of Hakat Hatov we must not hate all Egyptians as a result of having been strangers in their land. Should we hate all Syrians even though there were thriving Jewish communities in Syria?
Egypt didn't fight war against the nascent Jewish commonwealth. Syria is currently at war with the Jews.
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Also, doesn't that have to do with individual egyptians who sojourn in eretz yisrael? Not the original nation and country which the prophets warn not to ally with....
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So I suppose we should have never expected the non-Jews to have helped us during the Holocaust. No wonder nobody did anything and let 6 million Jews die in that churban.
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Also, doesn't that have to do with individual egyptians who sojourn in eretz yisrael? Not the original nation and country which the prophets warn not to ally with....
The commandment allowed the 3rd-4th generation of Egyptians to marry into the Jewish people.
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Egypt didn't fight war against the nascent Jewish commonwealth. Syria is currently at war with the Jews.
I was not aware there was a 'war' with syria to this day. But it appears that the hostilities have never been resolved.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Syria_relations
During Syrian civil war[edit source | editbeta]
In January 2012, the IDF Chief of Staff, Benny Gantz stated that Israel would be willing to take in Alawite refugees, if the situation deteriorated for them in Syria, as a result of a revolution.[4]
In November 2012, the Syrian Government called Israel's actions against the Palestinian National Authority during the Operation Pillar of Cloud, "barbaric, reprehensible crimes" and called on the international community to pressure Israel into halting its strikes.[5]
On 3 November, 2012, three Syrian tanks entered the Golan Heights, a demilitarized zone. It was the first time since the Yom Kippur War ended in 1973. Israel complained to the UN peacekeepers in the area.[6][7] There have also been several cross-border shooting incidents in the Golan Heights since the war in Syria erupted.[8]
On 30 January 2013, war planes were reported to have attacked deep within Syrian territory - an alleged Israeli air force operation. The United States believed the target was a convoy carrying sophisticated antiaircraft weaponry outside Damascus that was going to be given to the Hezbollah Shiite militia in Lebanon, but Syrian authorities denied this.[9] On 5 May 2013, Syrian state media reported "Israeli airstrikes" targeting military positions in Damascus, following bombing in Rif Dimashq governorate. They reportedly struck a research center and caused casualties. The US president, Barack Obama, commented that Israel "has to guard against the transfer of advanced weaponry to terrorist organizations like Hezbollah."[10]
US officials said that Israel carried out a strike on 5 July against supplies of P-800 Oniks missiles in Latakia, Syria. The strike was reportedly carried out by a Dolphin-class submarine.[11]
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This is a big mess Obamo started, and will lead to WW3. Our Biggest enemy Russia, Iran, ect. Is on the side of Assad. We are on the side of the same people that want to impose Sharia law on us, and are killing innocent Christians. And killed thousands of our people. This is a ticking time bomb! What can we do? We either stay out of it, or we go in full force and get as many innocent people as we can, and then nuke the place...
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This is a big mess Obamo started, and will lead to WW3. Our Biggest enemy Russia, Iran, ect. Is on the side of Assad. We are on the side of the same people that want to impose Sharia law on us, and are killing innocent Christians. And killed thousands of our people. This is a ticking time bomb! What can we do? We either stay out of it, or we go in full force and get as many innocent people as we can, and then nuke the place...
Indeed O has messed this situation up incredibly. But Israel must be prepared to handle anything syria can throw at her.
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So I suppose we should have never expected the non-Jews to have helped us during the Holocaust. No wonder nobody did anything and let 6 million Jews die in that churban.
Huh? That makes no sense and has nothing to do with what I wrote. Sounds like a purely emotional outburst.
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The commandment allowed the 3rd-4th generation of Egyptians to marry into the Jewish people.
Exactly. So why would there be any connection to present-day Syria the nazi country who has a policy of destroying the Jews?
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I was not aware there was a 'war' with syria to this day.
How are you not aware of this? Do you live under a rock? Syria, with the help of Iran, directly aids Hezbollah in its war against Israel. They are also known to aid and arm Hamas.
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Muman613 please reread Bamidbar (Numbers) CHAPTER 31.
I would also suggest you read Ramban's commentary why Moshe (Moses) was angry about who the Israelites initially kept alive after the war.
I would also suggest you read what the Rambam and the Chafetz Chaim have to say about the commandment of Lo Tichanem.
I would also suggest you read the English translation of Rabbi Kahane's Ohr Haraayon, the Jewish Idea.
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So I suppose we should have never expected the non-Jews to have helped us during the Holocaust. No wonder nobody did anything and let 6 million Jews die in that churban.
Soo you blaming the Jews for this?
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Ultimately there is going to be peace in the Middle East, and the Egyptians and Syrians will repent:
"In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian will come into Egypt and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians will serve with the Assyrians.
In that day Israel will be one of three with Egypt and Assyria—a blessing in the midst of the land, 25 whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying, “Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance.” (Yeshaya 19)
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Isaiah Chapter 19 יְשַׁעְיָהוּ
1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and cometh unto Egypt; and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at His presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt within it. 2 And I will spur Egypt against Egypt; and they shall fight every one against his brother, and everyone against his neighbour; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom. 3 And the spirit of Egypt shall be made empty within it; and I will make void the counsel thereof; and they shall seek unto the idols, and to the whisperers, and to the ghosts, and to the familiar spirits. 4 And I will give over the Egyptians into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts. 5 And the waters shall fail from the sea, and the river shall be drained dry, 6 And the rivers shall become foul; the streams of Egypt shall be minished and dried up; the reeds and flags shall wither. 7 The mosses by the Nile, by the brink of the Nile, and all that is sown by the Nile, shall become dry, be driven away, and be no more. 8 The fishers also shall lament, and all they that cast angle into the Nile shall mourn, and they that spread nets upon the waters shall languish. 9 Moreover they that work in combed flax, and they that weave cotton, shall be ashamed. 10 And her foundations shall be crushed, all they that make dams shall be grieved in soul. 11 The princes of Zoan are utter fools; the wisest counsellors of Pharaoh are a senseless counsel; how can ye say unto Pharaoh: 'I am the son of the wise, the son of ancient kings'? 12 Where are they, then, thy wise men? And let them tell thee now; and let them know what the LORD of hosts hath purposed concerning Egypt. 13 The princes of Zoan are become fools, the princes of Noph are deceived; they have caused Egypt to go astray, that are the corner-stone of her tribes. 14 The LORD hath mingled within her a spirit of dizziness; and they have caused Egypt to stagger in every work thereof, as a drunken man staggereth in his vomit. 15 Neither shall there be for Egypt any work, which head or tail, palm-branch or rush, may do. 16 In that day shall Egypt be like unto women; and it shall tremble and fear because of the shaking of the hand of the LORD of hosts, which He shaketh over it. 17 And the land of Judah shall become a terror unto Egypt, whensoever one maketh mention thereof to it; it shall be afraid, because of the purpose of the LORD of hosts, which He purposeth against it. {S} 18 In that day there shall be five cities in the land of Egypt that speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called the city of destruction. {S} 19 In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the LORD. 20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and He will send them a saviour, and a defender, who will deliver them. 21 And the LORD shall make Himself known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day; yea, they shall worship with sacrifice and offering, and shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and shall perform it. 22 And the LORD will smite Egypt, smiting and healing; and they shall return unto the LORD, and He will be entreated of them, and will heal them. {S} 23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria; and the Egyptians shall worship with the Assyrians. {S} 24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, a blessing in the midst of the earth; 25 for that the LORD of hosts hath blessed him, saying: 'Blessed be Egypt My people and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel Mine inheritance.' {S
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http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1021.htm
{S} 16 For thus hath the Lord said unto me: 'Within a year, according to the years of a hireling, and all the glory of Kedar shall fail; 17 and the residue of the number of the archers, the mighty men of the children of Kedar, shall be diminished; for the LORD, the God of Israel, hath spoken it.' {S}
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Ultimately there is going to be peace in the Middle East, and the Egyptians and Syrians will repent:
"In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian will come into Egypt and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians will serve with the Assyrians.
In that day Israel will be one of three with Egypt and Assyria—a blessing in the midst of the land, 25 whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying, “Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance.” (Yeshaya 19)
Rashi on this explains that all of this already happened.
On that day there shall be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and Assyria shall come upon Egypt, and Egypt shall come upon Assyria, and Egypt shall serve with Assyria. כג. בַּיּוֹם הַהוּא תִּהְיֶה מְסִלָּה מִמִּצְרַיִם אַשּׁוּרָה וּבָא אַשּׁוּר בְּמִצְרַיִם וּמִצְרַיִם בְּאַשּׁוּר וְעָבְדוּ מִצְרַיִם אֶת אַשּׁוּר:
there shall be a highway: And there shall be a paved road by which they will always go from Egypt to Assyria.
and Assyria shall come upon Egypt: Jonathan renders: And the Assyrians shall wage war with the Egyptians.
24. On that day, Israel shall be a third to Egypt and to Assyria; a blessing in the midst of the land. כד. בַּיּוֹם הַהוּא יִהְיֶה יִשְׂרָאֵל שְׁלִישִׁיָּה לְמִצְרַיִם וּלְאַשּׁוּר בְּרָכָה בְּקֶרֶב הָאָרֶץ:
Israel shall be a third to Egypt and to Assyria: for a blessing, since there was no prominent nation in the world at that time like Egypt and like Assyria, and the Jews were humble in the days of Ahaz and in the days of Hoshea the son of Elah. And the prophet states that, through the miracle that will be performed for Hezekiah, Israel’s name will be greatly magnified, and they will be as prominent as one of these kingdoms in regards to blessing and greatness.
25. Which the Lord of Hosts blessed them, saying, "Blessed is My people Egypt, and the work of My hands Assyria, and My heritage Israel." כה. אֲשֶׁר בֵּרֲכוֹ יְהֹוָה צְבָאוֹת לֵאמֹר בָּרוּךְ עַמִּי מִצְרַיִם וּמַעֲשֵׂה יָדַי אַשּׁוּר וְנַחֲלָתִי יִשְׂרָאֵל:
Which… blessed them: [lit. him,] i.e., Israel.
Blessed is My people: Israel, whom I chose for Myself as a people when they were in Egypt.
and the work of My hands: I showed them with the mighty deeds I performed wondrously against Assyria, and through those miracles they will repent and be as though I just made them anew, and they will be My heritage, Israel. Jonathan paraphrased this in a similar manner.
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Quote from Muman613
So I suppose we should have never expected the non-Jews to have helped us during the Holocaust. No wonder nobody did anything and let 6 million Jews die in that churban.
We have to stop getting our values by blindly trying to do the exact opposite of the Nazis.
So if the Nazis defined Jews as anyone with a Jewish grandfather, secular zionists say we too have to define being Jewish as anyone with a Jewish grandfather (a definition that would include even anti-zionist Secretary of State John Kerry). With this in mind they have imported tens of thousands of Russian Gentiles into Israel, further eroding the true Jewish majority in the land.
What is really proper to do is to ignore what the Nazis did and base our values on Torah values.
So if for example, the Torah says that we should not define someone with a Jewish father or grandfather but a non-Jewish mother as a Jew, we use Torah definitions and not Nazi definitions.
If the Torah says, do not have compassion over the plight of evil Gentiles, in particular when they belong to an enemy nation that is at war at us, we go by this and not by knee-jerk reactions of trying to figure out how to be the opposite of the evil Nazis.
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Quote from Muman613
So I suppose we should have never expected the non-Jews to have helped us during the Holocaust. No wonder nobody did anything and let 6 million Jews die in that churban.
During all the years of the State of Israel the state has bent over backwards to try to do everything under the sun to get the nations of the world to like us. But nevertheless the United Nations always has biased and lopsided votes against Israel (except on very rare occasions when the U.S.A. trying to please pro-zionist voters puts extremely heavy pressure on the other nations to change their usual voting patterns). This is surely an indication that no how liberal we might try to be we can't function with the expectation that the non-Jews are going to help us out. Usually they won't and even when they do, it will be for their own internal reasons and not because they are impressed by our compassion upon Syrians.
On a deeper level, the Torah says that we are a nation that ideally should dwell alone Bamidbar (Numbers) 23:9 and Rabbi Kahane claims we should even initiate movements in that direction. See also the prophetic work of Michah 5:6.
On a still deeper level, it is Jewish expansion in the land of Israel that will get the Gentiles to be on our side (not compassion on Syrians or Sudanese migrants). This is in accordance with Kol Hator written by a disciple of the Vilna Gaon. We see in Yishayahu {Isaiah} chapter 54 verse 2 and 3 that the prophet describes Jewish expansion in Israel. This leads to G-d creating a situation in verse 5 "The L-rd of the whole earth is he called".
That is to say for spiritual reasons the Gentiles will start to support us.
One example of this is the huge shift in Gentile support for us that came in the wake of the fantastic success and expansion in the wake of the 6-day war.
A success that wicked or cowardly governments have been trying to undo which contrary to their expectations has led to the weakening of support for the Jewish state.
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My point in that post is something I hear from some of my gentile friends.
Many have the belief that Jews only care about fellow Jews and the non-Jews can go to hell. I have heard this from several people, and while I always point to the fact that Israel has provided support and help to many nations, the impression that the Jewish people only care about Jews seems to me to be a prevalent attitude.
We know that even the Jews at the time did not do what they could do during the Shoah but non-Jews don't see it that way. So too with other mitzvot (such as Lashon Hara) where the law concerns Jews relationship to other Jews. I had a long argument with friends who said that since it is not a violation of Lashon Hara to speak about a non-Jew this was indicative of the 'clannish' nature of the Jew.
So too with the mitzvah of returning lost items... While the law specifically discusses a Jew returning a lost item to a Jew I often (correctly or incorrectly) believe it is best to return the lost items of a non-Jew also. Some sages (I will try to find which) say this is correct in order to keep the peace with the non-Jewish nations.
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Sorry for the digression but here is mention of the merit of returning a lost item to a non-Jew:
http://www.torah.org/advanced/weekly-halacha/5764/kiseitzei.html
Although the basic halachah does not require returning the item of a non-Jew [or even of a Jew who can be halachically classified as a rasha le'hachis, intentionally and deliberately wicked(6)], it is proper to do so in order to sanctify Hashem's Name - kiddush Hashem. If failing to return the item may cause a desecration of Hashem's Name, a chillul Hashem, the finder must return it.(7) If one finds a lost object on Shabbos in an area where carrying is forbidden, he may not pick it up(8.) Even if it is found in an area where carrying is permitted but the item is muktzeh, many poskim(9)hold that one should not pick it up.(10)
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I suppose I missed Halacha 3 from Rambam in addressing the 'Kiddush Hashem' and 'the ways of peace'...
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1088895/jewish/Chapter-Eleven.htm
Halacha 3
It is permissible to keep an object lost by an idolater, for Deuteronomy 22:3 speaks of returning "an object lost by your brother." Indeed, if one returns such an article, one transgresses a prohibition, for one strengthens the power of the wicked peoples of the world. If, however, one returns it to sanctify God's name, so that others will praise the Jewish people and know that they are trustworthy, this is praiseworthy.
When there is a possibility of the desecration of God's name,it is forbidden to keep an object lost by an idolater, and it must be returned. As part of "the ways of peace," we should always bring in their utensils from the outside, lest they be taken by thieves, as we do for utensils owned by Jews.
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According to this article it isn't even clear which side in the Syrian Civil War is using the Chemical weapons
http://nationalreview.com/article/356945/wmd-excuse-again-alan-reynolds (http://nationalreview.com/article/356945/wmd-excuse-again-alan-reynolds)
August 28, 2013 4:00 AM
The WMD Excuse, Again
Be skeptical of the administration’s claims on Syria. By Alan Reynolds
When it comes to reports of civilian deaths from chemical weapons in opposition-occupied Syrian towns, the Obama White House suddenly claims to be as certain of its own intelligence as the Bush White House was about Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction in October 2002. But it is much easier to rush into war, without congressional or popular approval, than it is to get out.
There was far more humility at the Obama White House the last time similar atrocities led the usual suspects to urge the U.S. to become militarily entangled in Syria. Complaining that “Mr. Obama made no response to a previous claim of chemical-weapons use,” a recent editorial in The Economist concludes that “America’s credibility depends on intervening.” Today, President Obama evidently agrees. But intervening cannot avoid taking sides — helping some favored group of thugs to either seize or retain control of the government (meaning the treasury, army, and police). So, which side is the U.S. supposed to take and why?
AdvertisementThe previous claim of chemical-weapons attacks, which The Economist now accuses President Obama of neglecting, occurred in Aleppo on March 13 and 19. One of the four U.N. investigators, Carla Del Ponte, then said the commission had found some evidence only that anti-government rebels may have used chemical weapons, not the government. Even aside from who used which chemicals, there were other war crimes going on in that rebel-occupied area, including an illegal siege, executions, kidnapping, rape, and torture. As the June “Report of the Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Syrian Arab Republic” explains, “Since July 2012, anti-Government armed groups in Aleppo have surrounded Nubul and Zahra, blocking food, fuel, and medical supplies to 70,000 residents. As the siege tightened in recent months, the population, especially women and children, began to suffer malnutrition. The wounded and sick cannot receive medical treatment. Persons attempting to leave the villages are often kidnapped, held for ransom, or killed. . . . Torture has been documented in detention facilities run by the Judicial Council and the Shari’a Board in Aleppo.”
War crimes and moral obscenities abound on both sides of the Syrian civil war, with thousands of civilians dead and many more displaced. Ruthless people are involved, with Iran on the Assad government’s side and al-Qaeda among the opposition. As for chemical warfare, the U.N. commission concluded in June that “it has not been possible, on the evidence available, to determine the precise chemical agents used, their delivery systems or the perpetrator” [emphasis added]: “Conclusive findings . . . may be reached only after testing samples taken directly from victims or the site of the alleged attack.”
Four days after the latest claim of a chemical attack, the reprehensible Assad government agreed to let U.N. investigators gather the evidence required to determine what sorts of chemicals were used, how they were delivered, and by whom. Without such an investigation, the general public has little information other than dreadful YouTube videos posted by rebels and activists from the Eastern Ghouta region. Get beyond initial revulsion, though, and it becomes clear that those videos provide extremely ambiguous clues about “the precise chemical agents used, their delivery systems or the perpetrator.”
As the New York Times reported, “visual evidence uploaded to YouTube makes it clear that a large number of civilians were killed on Wednesday, including women, children and the elderly. What remained unclear was how they died, and whether they were victims of a conventional chemical agent, like sarin or mustard gas, or if their deaths might have been caused by the use of a weaker agent in a confined space. Video shared online shows graphic images of dozens of dead people, including women and a large number of young children, including babies in diapers, most of whom were said to have suffocated.” Note that suffocation is not a primary symptom of sarin (which causes convulsions and vomiting) or mustard (which causes blistering). Suffocation instead points to “a weaker agent in a confined space,” such as a toxic industrial chemical or chlorine, perhaps in schools or buses. The conspicuous absence of vomit on the floors or clothing makes sarin or any other nerve gas an extremely unlikely culprit.
The White House nevertheless claims little doubt about the delivery mechanism (small rockets rather than confined spaces), which is why they have little doubt about the perpetrator. “U.S. spy agencies . . . concluded that the type of rocket used was solely in the possession of regime forces, not the opposition.” That is inconclusive. If U.S. spy agencies actually possess such rockets, not just photos supplied by the opposition, why weren’t the rockets examined to determine the agent used? Since the same rockets are used to deliver conventional explosives, their mere existence (even if discovered at the correct time and place) is insufficient to prove they were filled with illegal chemicals. Moreover, rockets and other weapons from regime forces could have been seized by the opposition in battle, as typical spoils of war.
For more of the article go to the web link above.
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My point in that post is something I hear from some of my gentile friends.
Many have the belief that Jews only care about fellow Jews and the non-Jews can go to hell.
The attitude of people making that claim is that Jews can go to hell. It's hypocrisy.
The fact is, although there were notable individual exceptions, by and large most people did NOT help us during the Holocaust. The lesson is not that gentiles have something wrong with them, the lesson is stop expecting their help.
I have heard this from several people, and while I always point to the fact that Israel has provided support and help to many nations, the impression that the Jewish people only care about Jews seems to me to be a prevalent attitude.
So if an inaccurate attitude is prevalent, that means I have to compromise my values and distort the Torah in order to constantly remain vigilant in attempting to combat that attitude?
Or are you saying you agree that the attitude is actually true, and since its not inaccurate, we have to pretend that its not true?
I can't agree with either of these approaches - which one is actually yours?
As for gentiles "caring" so deeply about the supposed genocide in Syria, are you aware of how many gentiles there are all over the internet saying that the US shouldn't get involved (genocide be damned) ? I see it all over youtube, twitter, article comments, etc. So, do their opinions count too? Or do only the opinions of gentiles who have unfair criticisms to level at Jews count? I would say the majority of people, Jew or gentile, don't give a cr.ap about Syria, and rightfully so.
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Syria is in a civil war. Both sides are evil. They are fighting over political hegemony and control over the country's levers of power. Both sides are killing each other and often in brutal ways. That didn't change 5 days ago (if chemical weapons were truly introduced into the battle by one of the sides), and it won't change if the US or the British get involved, as they now seem likely to do.
The idea of characterizing this battle as "genocide" is just playing into the hands of the US administration and British govt who are using the language of genocide purely for political purposes, to justify their impending entry into these affairs. Both govt's want to be involved in deciding the outcome in Syria, and both know that their populace is extremely unlikely to support their colonialist intentions but are more likely to acquiesce if they can convince their people that they are acting on moral or humanitarian grounds. That is why they accuse one side of committing genocide against the side which they now intend to help. I'm sorry but anyone who cannot see this is simply a fool. The language out of MK Ariel and others in the Israeli regime is simply a propaganda effort aimed at providing justification and cover (essentially it's an act of tuchis-kissing) to their political "allies" or overlords in the US govt in the hopes that the political favor will be reciprocated with favoritism or some other type of help sent Israel's way or Ariel's way in the future by the US administration (but I doubt any such help will be given!). A well-known term for such a person is "useful idiot."
But by all meas, continue to tug at people's heartstrings with claims of genocide and holocaust when this is nothing like the holocaust, it's not even clear there was a genocide at all, and on top of all that, we don't even know which side utilized chemical weapons.
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One last thing I want to add is that I am sick and tired of people comparing national disputes and political rivalries with what happened in the Holocaust! These are unrelated things.
This is the comparison that nazis make because they seek to belittle and minimize the holocaust, whether overtly or subconsciously, or both. For example, they compare with the holocaust Israel's national dispute with Fakestinians who wish to uproot the regime of Jews and take over the country to be their own land, and they also make this comparison in order to equate Jews with Nazis thereby assuaging their own holocaust-guilt and at the same time discrediting Israel in a propaganda war.
But more importantly, and more obscenely, this comparison is spitting on the grave of every holocaust victim. There was no plan of Jews to take over Germany, they did not lead a civil war effort or a revolution, they did not bomb or attack Germans, and certainly not the rest of Europe either. If anything, Jews wanted to be accepted as the best possible Germans, and assimilation (or at least an attempt at it) was rampant. The holocaust was unprovoked racial and religious extermination. A present-day civil war over control of a country cannot be compared with this. Mass casualties in a bombing campaign (example, Dresden bombing was not a holocaust against Germans) cannot be compared with this. If a 5th column population tries to ignite a revolution and political upheavel with violent means, it is NOT a HOLOCAUST for the regime to respond in kind and preserve their hegemony using reciprocal violence.
Please, stop spitting on the graves of holocaust victims.
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Muman about returning lost objects you only quoted partial laws. You forget to mention the different sages such as the Meiri who say that in a society like in a town where gentiles return lost objects a Jew is compelled and must return a lost object back to a gentile. Now that is compulsion by law. On the other hand in a society where lost objects are not returned a Jew is not compelled to return a lost object of a gentile BUT throughout the Talmud it is highly praised to do such an action and is a Kiddush Hashem. The only difference is that one is not required by the letter of the law. It all comes down to which society one is in. It is like an "eye for an eye" soo to speak but in the positive sense.
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Rashi on this explains that all of this already happened.
There is a Torah principle that prophecies can be repeatedly fulfilled/partly fulfilled over millenia eg that some opinions have Daniel 9-12 as referring to the wars of Alexander the Great, the Hasmoneans etc, does not contradict & is simultaneously true with those later meforshim who say they refer to the wars of the Anti-Moshiach Armilus in the future. That Lubavitch and others hold that Gog & Magog has already been fulfilled by WW2 does not contradict a future invasion of Eretz Yisrael. That 19th c Malbim says that Yeshaya 19 etc is yet to be fulfilled does not contradict 11th c Rashi.
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Muman about returning lost objects you only quoted partial laws. You forget to mention the different sages such as the Meiri who say that in a society like in a town where gentiles return lost objects a Jew is compelled and must return a lost object back to a gentile. Now that is compulsion by law. On the other hand in a society where lost objects are not returned a Jew is not compelled to return a lost object of a gentile BUT throughout the Talmud it is highly praised to do such an action and is a Kiddush Hashem. The only difference is that one is not required by the letter of the law. It all comes down to which society one is in. It is like an "eye for an eye" soo to speak but in the positive sense.
Shalom Tag,
So do we, here in America, live in a society where returning lost items is the law? Not according to most where I live where the motto 'Finders Keepers, Losers Weepers' seems to be the common way of dealing with lost items.
Even though this is the case, as I posted above, it is meritorious for a Jew to return them due to the issues of 'Kiddush Hashem' and also 'The Ways of Peace'.
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One last thing I want to add is that I am sick and tired of people comparing national disputes and political rivalries with what happened in the Holocaust! These are unrelated things.
This is the comparison that nazis make because they seek to belittle and minimize the holocaust, whether overtly or subconsciously, or both. For example, they compare with the holocaust Israel's national dispute with Fakestinians who wish to uproot the regime of Jews and take over the country to be their own land, and they also make this comparison in order to equate Jews with Nazis thereby assuaging their own holocaust-guilt and at the same time discrediting Israel in a propaganda war.
But more importantly, and more obscenely, this comparison is spitting on the grave of every holocaust victim. There was no plan of Jews to take over Germany, they did not lead a civil war effort or a revolution, they did not bomb or attack Germans, and certainly not the rest of Europe either. If anything, Jews wanted to be accepted as the best possible Germans, and assimilation (or at least an attempt at it) was rampant. The holocaust was unprovoked racial and religious extermination. A present-day civil war over control of a country cannot be compared with this. Mass casualties in a bombing campaign (example, Dresden bombing was not a holocaust against Germans) cannot be compared with this. If a 5th column population tries to ignite a revolution and political upheavel with violent means, it is NOT a HOLOCAUST for the regime to respond in kind and preserve their hegemony using reciprocal violence.
Please, stop spitting on the graves of holocaust victims.
kwrbt, get off it... You are guilty of the very things you accuse others of doing. Claiming that I put words in others mouths when you yourself just did the very thing to me. I did not spit on the graves of the Holocaust victims my friend. By suggesting that we should be more sensitive to the plight of others I am standing on the Torah principles.
I could address several examples where the Torah implores us to stand up against the wrongdoing of others. It is wrong to murder, it is wrong to take the life of innocent people (not guilty of a death penalty crime), it is wrong to stand idle while others are spilling blood.
One lesson of the story of Jonah is that Jonah was sent by Hashem to go instruct the nation of Nineveh to repent. Jonah did not want to do so because in his prophetic vision he knew that the people of Nineveh would one day rise against the Jewish people, thus he would be assisting those who wanted to kill us. But Hashem wanted Jonah to deliver the message of Teshuva so badly that he would have Jonah die by drowning in the sea for not delivering it.
Another interesting lesson from Jonah is that according to some midrashim and sages the Pharoah of Egypt who oppressed the Jews during the Exodus actually survived the Sea of Reeds and became the King of Nineveh. How could the most evil man in History (up to that point) have been allowed to make Teshuva? It seems to me that we can learn a lot from this Yom Kippur portion of the Prophets...
http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-category/jewish-texts/?p=2683
Pharaoh in Ninveh
Can you tell me the story of Pharaoh ruling over the city of Nineveh & its source?
A hint to the idea that Pharaoh did not die at the splitting of the Reed Sea can be found in Exodus 14:28. The verse states that the water covered over the Egyptians, “v’lo nish’ar bahem od echad.” The plain meaning of this verse is that not even one person remained. The Midrash, in Pirkei D’Rabbi Eliezer, says that the verse can be read to mean “up until, but not including one person (i.e. Pharoah), was left.” The Midrash continues to note that Pharoah became king of Nineveh.
Additionally, the commentary Ba’al Ha’turim points points out the following linguistic similarity: In Exodus 14:31 it says, “...And they [the Jewish people] believed in the Lord…”; and in Jonah 3:5 it says, “And the people of Nineveh believed in G-d….” Both verses use the word “Va’yaminu”—and they believed. This points us to the Midrash quoted above, and explains that the people of Nineveh were brought to belief in G-d by Pharaoh, when he told them of the wonders that occurred in Egypt and in the Red Sea.
The implications of this Midrash are truly astounding! The fact that someone like Pharoah, who time and again refused to recognize the power of G-d, could repent and teach a whole city about the truth of G-d, is a remarkable lesson in the strength of repentance.
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I would also like to clear up some issues which seem to be getting confused...
1) I do not support an American strike on the Syrians.
2) In general I believe that it is OK for the Syrian regime to exterminate the Al-Queda and Muslim Brotherhood and Hezbolla operatives in the country.
3) My involvement in this thread has been simply to point out that when a dictator resorts to WMD use against civilian population I believe someone must speak out against it.
I do pray for the sparing of the innocent lives in Syria. Obviously in my definition innocent means that they do not harbor hatred for Israel, Hashems people.
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בס''ד
When Muslim Nazis slaughter Muslim Nazis, all sane Jews rejoice.
Praying for "innocent" Syrians is like praying for "innocent" Germans during the holocaust. The only difference between the Muslim Nazis and the German Nazis is that G-d has prevented the Muslims from succeeding in carrying out another holocaust against us.
The Jews in this generation are sick. They need a national couch. After over 100 years in which the Muslims have sought to exterminate the Jews in the Holy Land, we have Jews who pray for their would-be destroyers.
Hashem miraculously gets rid of some of our enemies by getting them to kill each other, and we have Jews who are upset about this. How disgusting.
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Chaim,
Are you talking about me? I hope you are not because you seem to be suggesting that I am praying for our enemies. I surely am not.
There were INNOCENT GERMANS and there were Germans and other non-Jews who did a lot to help the Jewish people. Not all Germans were Nazi monsters. I hope you realize that saying that all Germans are guilty of the Holocaust is not factually true.
You have even said that there are good German members of JTF. Should they not be offended for your saying that there were no innocent Germans during the Holocaust?
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So I also assume it is wrong to pray for the Coptic Christians because they are not our blood, and the church has oppressed us for many centuries... So I should not feel anything for the Christians being killed in egypt...
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Chaim,
Are you talking about me? I hope you are not because you seem to be suggesting that I am praying for our enemies. I surely am not.
There were INNOCENT GERMANS and there were Germans and other non-Jews who did a lot to help the Jewish people. Not all Germans were Nazi monsters. I hope you realize that saying that all Germans are guilty of the Holocaust is not factually true.
You have even said that there are good German members of JTF. Should they not be offended for your saying that there were no innocent Germans during the Holocaust?
בס''ד
Almost all Germans were Nazis. Very few Germans were innocent. What you are writing now is holocaust revisionism.
We have one member of the forum from Germany is a good person. There are exceptions to the rule.
I am not referring to Americans of German descent. They are sometimes several generations removed from Germany and so they are far more American than German.
But what the German people as a whole did to the Jews was the worst crime in human history and can never be forgotten or forgiven.
There were INNOCENT GERMANS and there were Germans and other non-Jews who did a lot to help the Jewish people.
Germans did a lot to help the Jewish people?! Are you kidding? You are completely distorting history. You obviously know nothing about what happened in Nazi Germany. The handful of Germans who tried to help Jews out of 80 million Germans is a joke.
Not all Germans were Nazi monsters.
Almost all Germans were Nazi monsters. Almost all supported Hitler after he seized power. Hitler was by far the most popular leader in German history.
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I agree that a majority of Germans were immensely evil for allowing such barbaric decimation of the Jewish people, and the other races and peoples who were oppressed.
But my point, which basically is the point made by Abraham our father, that there were some who did save Jews (Schindler is one example, Raul Wallenberg is another one) even at the risk of their own families. There is the concept of Righteous Among Nations and there are numerous examples of Germans who did try to help Jews. Just a couple weeks ago I heard from a Holocaust Survivor (who was in Aushwitz) that he was assisted by a righteous gentile in Germany... The righteous ones deserve the prayers of the Jewish people. At least this is my opinion...
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Another story of a righteous German gentile:
http://www.aish.com/ho/p/49082441.html
The Leica is the pioneer 35mm camera. It is a German product -- precise, minimalist, and utterly efficient. Behind its worldwide acceptance as a creative tool was a family-owned, socially oriented firm that during the Nazi era acted with uncommon grace, generosity and modesty. E. Leitz, Inc., designer and manufacturer of Germany's most famous photographic product, saved the company's Jews.
And Ernst Leitz II, the steely-eyed Protestant patriarch who headed the closely held firm as the Holocaust loomed across Europe, acted in such a way as to earn the title, "The Photography Industry's Schindler."
As soon as Adolf Hitler was named chancellor of Germany in 1933, Ernst Leitz II began receiving frantic calls from Jewish associates, asking for his help in getting them and their families out of the country. As Christians, Leitz and his family were, of course, immune to Nazi Germany's Nuremberg laws, which restricted the movement of Jews and limited their professional activities.
To help his Jewish workers and colleagues, Leitz quietly established what has become known among historians of the Holocaust as "The Leica Freedom Train," a covert means of allowing Jews to leave Germany in the guise of Leitz employees being assigned overseas.
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בס''ד
Wallenberg was Swedish. And he had virtually no help from his fellow Swedes when he sought to save Hungarian Jews.
There were very, very few Schindlers.
there are numerous examples of Germans who did try to help Jews.
This is a complete lie. You are now repeating what the Germans want us to believe to try to "cleanse" their vile history.
I see that you are now searching for examples to try to prove that there were many good Germans. The fact is the Germans fanatically and almost universally supported Hitler.
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בס''ד
Wallenberg was Swedish. And he had virtually no help from his fellow Swedes when he sought to save Hungarian Jews.
There were very, very few Schindlers.
This is a complete lie. You are now repeating what the Germans want us to believe to try to "cleanse" their vile history.
I see that you are now searching for examples to try to prove that there were many good Germans. The fact is the Germans fanatically and almost universally supported Hitler.
I agree with you that Hitler was supported by the majority of Germans. I am not arguing about that. I am saying that there are examples of righteous Germans who deserve our prayers, nothing else about Germans.
By extension I am suggesting that there are innocent syrians who do not hate Jews. It is these whom I have labelled 'innocent' for whom my sentiments are with.
I understand the entire collective responsibility thing. This was one of the lessons regarding the wiping out of the city of Shechem because of the action of Chamor. Indeed the innocent will be destroyed along with the wicked when the decree is delivered. I understand this, and yet I hold out hope that the innocent will be spared.
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Muman, your (deliberate?) obtuseness is infuriating. Thankfully, I am a calm person and have pretty decent control over my temper, so I didn't smash any inanimate objects upon reading your post.
kwrbt, get off it... You are guilty of the very things you accuse others of doing. Claiming that I put words in others mouths when you yourself just did the very thing to me. I did not spit on the graves of the Holocaust victims my friend.
What words did I put in your mouth? What words?
You DID equate one side of a Syrian civil war with victims of the Holocaust. And I accused THAT EQUATION as being an insult to every holocaust victim. Why? Because by comparing them with people fomenting political rebellion and provoking violent reciprocation (things which holocaust victims did NOT do), you are essentially blaming holocaust victims for what was in reality an unfair victimization. Because both sides of the Syrian civil war are guilty of crimes, and both sides deserve (at least in part) to incur the wrath of the opposing side based on their actions taken against the other side. So how can you possibly say with a straight face that holocaust victims are in any way similar to this scenario?
As I said before, it is rational for the Syrian regime to react to violence with violence to preserve itself. When a regime puts down a violent rebellion, it is NOT a holocaust.
By suggesting that we should be more sensitive to the plight of others I am standing on the Torah principles.
But you didn't just implore us: "Be more sensitive to the plight of others." You compared and equated holocaust victims with moslem brotherhood jihadis and syrian rebels and syrian nazi so-called civilians. And that is what I took issue with. That is not a Torah principle. Equating, as you have done here, things that are different, makes a mockery of human intellect.
And since you are claiming I put words in your mouth, then just so you don't forget what you actually said, I'll quote you directly right now. This is what you replied to me in this thread when I said that I want the most possible Syrians to perish in the Syrian civil war:
"
So I suppose we should have never expected the non-Jews to have helped us during the Holocaust. No wonder nobody did anything and let 6 million Jews die in that churban.
"
With silly accusations out of the way, let's continue.
I could address several examples where the Torah implores us to stand up against the wrongdoing of others.
Well luckily for me, I didn't claim that people shouldn't stand up against the wrongdoing of others.
(I wonder, what do you mean by "stand up" exactly?)
It is wrong to murder,
Well luckily for me, I didn't claim that it is not wrong to murder.
it is wrong to take the life of innocent people (not guilty of a death penalty crime),
Well luckily for me, I didn't claim that it is not wrong to take the life of innocent people (didn't you just say the same thing by saying murder?)
it is wrong to stand idle while others are spilling blood.
Well luckily for me, I didn't claim it is right to stand idle "while others are spilling blood." (But still, hopefully you realize that you have misquoted the verse).
One lesson of the story of Jonah is that Jonah was sent by Hashem to go instruct the nation of Nineveh to repent. Jonah did not want to do so because in his prophetic vision he knew that the people of Nineveh would one day rise against the Jewish people, thus he would be assisting those who wanted to kill us. But Hashem wanted Jonah to deliver the message of Teshuva so badly that he would have Jonah die by drowning in the sea for not delivering it.
With the number of incongruous things you equate, you sound like a reform rabbi. Why don't we also bring up "love your fellow like yourself" and "love Hashem your God with all your heart all your soul and all your possessions" to justify insulting the memory of holocaust victims? Afterall, if we have to love Hashem with all our hearts, we have to love Syrians too, and therefore they are the same as holocaust victims, right? The story of Jonah and the pesukim I just referred to have nothing to do with genocide or chemical warfare in Syria which themselves have nothing to do with the holocaust.
Another interesting lesson from Jonah is that according to some midrashim and sages the Pharoah of Egypt who oppressed the Jews during the Exodus actually survived the Sea of Reeds and became the King of Nineveh. How could the most evil man in History (up to that point) have been allowed to make Teshuva?
Your question doesn't make sense. Everyone is "allowed" to do teshuvah. Why would anyone not be allowed to do sincere teshuvah?
Meanwhile on planet earth, we don't go around assuming that every criminal beast and animal HAS ALREADY DONE TESHUVAH when they haven't. Especially not rodfim, nazis, and enemies of our people.
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Muman, your (deliberate?) obtuseness is infuriating. Thankfully, I am a calm person and have pretty decent control over my temper, so I didn't smash any inanimate objects upon reading your post.
What words did I put in your mouth? What words?
You DID equate one side of a Syrian civil war with victims of the Holocaust. And I accused THAT EQUATION as being an insult to every holocaust victim. Why? Because by comparing them with people fomenting political rebellion and provoking violent reciprocation, you are essentially blaming holocaust victims for what was in reality an unfair victimization. Because both sides of the Syrian civil war are guilty of crimes, and both sides deserve (at least in part) to incur the wrath of the opposing side based on their actions taken against the other side. So how can you possibly say with a straight face that holocaust victims are in any way similar to this scenario?
As I said before, it is rational for the Syrian regime to react to violence with violence to preserve itself. When a regime puts down a violent rebellion, it is NOT a holocaust.
But you didn't just implore us: "Be more sensitive to the plight of others." You compared and equated holocaust victims with moslem brotherhood jihadis and syrian rebels. And that is what I took issue with. That is not a Torah principle. Equating, as you have done here, things that are different, makes a mockery of human intellect.
And since you are claiming I put words in your mouth, then just so you don't forget what you actually said, I'll quote you directly right now. This is what you replied to me in this thread when I said that I want the most possible Syrians to perish in the Syrian civil war:
""
With silly accusations out of the way, let's continue.
Well luckily for me, I didn't claim that people shouldn't stand up against the wrongdoing of others.
(I wonder, what do you mean by "stand up" exactly?)
Well luckily for me, I didn't claim that it is not wrong to murder.Well luckily for me, I didn't claim that it is not wrong to take the life of innocent people (didn't you just say the same thing by saying murder?)
Well luckily for me, I didn't claim it is right to stand idle "while others are spilling blood." (But still, hopefully you realize that you have misquoted the verse).
With the number of incongruous things you equate, you sound like a reform rabbi. Why don't we also bring up "love your fellow like yourself" and "love Hashem your God with all your heart all your soul and all your possessions" to justify insulting the memory of holocaust victims? Afterall, if we have to love Hashem with all our hearts, we have to love Syrians too, and therefore they are the same as holocaust victims, right? The story of Jonah and the pesukim I just referred to have nothing to do with genocide or chemical warfare in Syria which themselves have nothing to do with the holocaust.
Your question doesn't make sense. Everyone is "allowed" to do teshuvah. Why would anyone not be allowed to do sincere teshuvah?
Meanwhile on planet earth, we don't go around assuming that every criminal beast and animal HAS ALREADY DONE TESHUVAH when they haven't. Especially not rodfim, nazis, and enemies of our people.
SHUT UP FOR ONCE!
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SHUT UP FOR ONCE!
Gee, that's such a sensible comment which adds value and insight to this conversation in droves. How can we thank you for your contributions?
If you disagree with something I said then challenge my rationale by stating your own view. Otherwise, what you have done instead with the above is absolutely worthless.
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KWRBT,
I love you but you seem to lack the ability to read what is written.
My statement, which I explained ad-nauseum in this thread, is that Jews have been considered 'clannish' and of caring only for Jews. Often it is asked why the nations of the world did not do more to save the Jews. If we can shut out the suffering of others without any regret for the loss of life we cannot ever ask why they don't do anything to help us.
I am not going to argue with you point for point, because it is pointless.
But I stand by what I said, you can agree or disagree, that is your right.
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Gee, that's such a sensible comment which adds value and insight to this conversation in droves. How can we thank you for your contributions?
If you disagree with something I said then challenge my rationale by stating your own view. Otherwise, what you have done instead with the above is absolutely worthless.
You're such a nice fellow, I feel for you... I'm sorry I'm not a genius like you!
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KWRBT,
I love you but you seem to lack the ability to read what is written.
My statement, which I explained ad-nauseum in this thread, is that Jews have been considered 'clannish' and of caring only for Jews. Often it is asked why the nations of the world did not do more to save the Jews. If we can shut out the suffering of others without any regret for the loss of life we cannot ever ask why they don't do anything to help us.
Once again you are equating the "suffering" of your Syrian nazi lover-boys with the victimization of Jews in the holocaust. Shame on you.
I am not going to argue with you point for point, because it is pointless.
Pointless because you are wrong and misguided so what can you possibly say in response when I criticize your absurd opinion and your stance of moral equivalence (which obviously is NOT the ethics of Judaism but rather the "ethics" of modern liberal politics)?
But I stand by what I said, you can agree or disagree, that is your right.
You don't consider the fact that you are insulting the memory of holocaust victims? You just simply "stand by it?"
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You're such a nice fellow, I feel for you... I'm sorry I'm not a genius like you!
After screaming "SHUT UP" at me like a little girl, how do you expect me to be nice in my reply?
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After screaming "SHUT UP" at me like a little girl, how do you expect me to be nice in my reply?
Don't call me a little girl!
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Once again you are equating the "suffering" of your Syrian nazi lover-boys with the victimization of Jews in the holocaust. Shame on you.
Pointless because you are wrong and misguided so what can you possibly say in response when I criticize your absurd opinion and your stance of moral equivalence (which obviously is NOT the ethics of Judaism but rather the "ethics" of modern liberal politics)?
You don't consider the fact that you are insulting the memory of holocaust victims? You just simply "stand by it?"
As some others have pointed out, muslim nazi's were not the only ones who suffered from this attack. If you have read my posts you will learn that I fully support the death of enemies of the Jewish people. But I do not believe that all who were harmed by this attack are deserving. You seem to know better, that is your perogative.
But please do not ascribe things to me which I have not said. You are engaging in the very behavior which you accuse others of engaging in. I believe you should look inside yourself to discover what makes you react in such a manner.
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Sharpen your reading and conversation skills KWRBT and you will have a very good future...
Making baseless accusations makes you look foolish, IMO...
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KWRBT,
I love you but you seem to lack the ability to read what is written.
My statement, which I explained ad-nauseum in this thread, is that Jews have been considered 'clannish' and of caring only for Jews. Often it is asked why the nations of the world did not do more to save the Jews. If we can shut out the suffering of others without any regret for the loss of life we cannot ever ask why they don't do anything to help us.
I am not going to argue with you point for point, because it is pointless.
But I stand by what I said, you can agree or disagree, that is your right.
Yett in reality Jews as a whole do and act in the exact OPPOSITE direction and yet Jews as a whole are hated the most. Look at all the Jews who run around the world to help others, even their enemies (which is completely wrong!). Mny Jews go to Africa to help the black babies. After Katrina many of them went to New Orleans, many of them died for black civil rights, many of them died defending "their country" Germany during WW1. Many of them go all over to protect and work for the benefit of others YETT they are precisely the ones who get spitt at the most and said these ridiculous claims against.
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Yett in reality Jews as a whole do and act in the exact OPPOSITE direction and yet Jews as a whole are hated the most. Look at all the Jews who run around the world to help others, even their enemies (which is completely wrong!). Mny Jews go to Africa to help the black babies. After Katrina many of them went to New Orleans, many of them died for black civil rights, many of them died defending "their country" Germany during WW1. Many of them go all over to protect and work for the benefit of others YETT they are precisely the ones who get spitt at the most and said these ridiculous claims against.
This is irrelevant to what I am saying. That others do foolish things in the name of trying to appease the nations does not mean that we should be insensitive to the plight of others. Some people (you included) seem to make the assumption that only 'guilty' or 'deserving' people were killed in this attack. I am of the belief that there were innocent people killed, including Syrian Christians, and children who may not have accepted the Jew hatred that they may have been indoctrinated with.
My argument is not that we must care what the nations think. I am suggesting that we act in a way which Magnifies Hashems name in the eyes of the nations, thus acting like the 'light upon the nations' which we are tasked with being.
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Don't call me a little girl!
Then don't scream like one. (It's commonly understood that in internet parlance, typing out a statement in all caps is meant as yelling. Coupled to the fact that it's an irrational emotional outburst instead of substantive reply, how can you claim it was not done in the manner of a little girl? Is it more comfortable for you if I call it the behavior of a little boy instead?).
Please don't derail this thread into shouting matches or other pointless sniping.
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Then don't scream like one. (It's commonly understood that in internet parlance, typing out a statement in all caps is meant as yelling. Coupled to the fact that it's an irrational emotional outburst instead of substantive reply, how can you claim it was not done in the manner of a little girl? Is it more comfortable for you if I call it the behavior of a little boy instead?).
Please don't derail this thread into shouting matches or other pointless sniping.
You want to go? I'm game! We can meet at some point... Why don't you be respectful?
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As some others have pointed out, muslim nazi's were not the only ones who suffered from this attack. If you have read my posts you will learn that I fully support the death of enemies of the Jewish people. But I do not believe that all who were harmed by this attack are deserving.
The vast majority of Syrians are overwhelmingly Jew-hating nazis. So by what kind of calculus does it make sense to mourn over a mass casualty event taking place in the midst of their civil war?
But please do not ascribe things to me which I have not said.
Again, just as when I said "What words" - as in, what words did I put in your mouth - I beg you please tell me what things I ascribed to you that you didn't say. YOU DID equate holocaust victims with victims of the Syrian chemical weapons attack (assuming it actually took place). YOU did that, not me. I quoted you directly. You can't erase it from the archives, it's stored in the thread. I merely point out that such comments as the ones you make are insulting to the memory of holocaust victims. You seem unwilling to acknowledge that point and unwilling to relent from your stance of irresponsible moral equivalence.
You are engaging in the very behavior which you accuse others of engaging in. I believe you should look inside yourself to discover what makes you react in such a manner.
You already said this earlier in the thread and I asked you "what words" did I put in your mouth. You couldn't specify. Now you are just repeating the same baseless accusation over again because you can't deal with what I'm writing in reply to your silly accusations and weak points that have no sound logic (such as the book of yonah or other extraneous materials you are citing).
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You want to go? I'm game!
Silliness.
We can meet at some point... Why don't you be respectful?
Yes, because "OH SHUT UP FOR ONCE" is the exemplar of respect.
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The following Psalms is supposed to be said according to my prayer book, before bircat hamazon (Grace after meals) on regular days of the week.
Note Muman613 how the Psalms end with a blessing towards the one that dashes the little ones of the Daughter of Babylon against the rock. It sounds like the Bible doesn't have your definition of who do we consider innocent.
Psalms
Chapter 137
1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
2 Upon the willows in the midst thereof we hanged up our harps.
3 For there they that led us captive asked of us words of song, and our tormentors asked of us mirth: 'Sing us one of the songs of Zion.'
4 How shall we sing HaShem'S song in a foreign land?
5 If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.
6 Let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth, if I remember thee not; if I set not Jerusalem above my chiefest joy.
7 Remember, O HaShem, against the children of Edom the day of Jerusalem; who said: 'Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof.'
8 O daughter of Babylon, that art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that repayeth thee as thou hast served us.
9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the rock.
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Edu,
Obviously I know this Psalm, it is part of Bentsching...
But your interpretation seems to be biased. You realize that Babylon is one of the four exiles, and the Babylonians led us in captivity from our land. Thus the enmity of the Jewish people towards Babylon rose to the level of destroying their young ones.
I do not think, nor do I think any sage alive today, would compare Syria to the Babylonians. Thus I don't see any relevance of this Psalm to the question of whether we should pray for the innocent of Syria.
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Edu,
Do you suggest that all 'enemies' of Israel deserve to have their children exterminated? Also as several here have made the error of assuming all those who were killed in this attack are A) Muslim, B) Enemies of Israel, C) Deserved death I am saying that we do not know whether Syrian Christians or non-Muslims were killed in the attack.
The Torah clearly sees different levels of enemies. Not every nation which rose against Israel can be compared to Amalek. Even Moab, which the Torah clearly says should not be allowed to join our nation, eventually became the great-grandmother of the Moshiach. This is because the prohibition of marrying Moabites only applied to the men (according to the sages).
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Does anyone ever suggest that our father Abraham actually prayed for the wicked of Sodom and Amora?
No they don't because he did not pray for the wicked of Sodom. He prayed for the righteous of Sodom to be spared of the destruction. I too, in the spirit of Abraham, pray for the righteous of Syria to be spared the destruction which may come as a result of the wicked leaders of Syria who threaten their own people, and Israel.
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Silliness.
Yes, because "OH SHUT UP FOR ONCE" is the exemplar of respect.
The only reason I yelled is because, you are RUDE to people.
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Edu,
Do you suggest that all 'enemies' of Israel deserve to have their children exterminated? Also as several here have made the error of assuming all those who were killed in this attack are A) Muslim, B) Enemies of Israel, C) Deserved death I am saying that we do not know whether Syrian Christians or non-Muslims were killed in the attack.
First off for the record they were Muslims who were killed. Sunni Muslims. And about the Syrian Christians- they were and are on Assads side. They also were a major factor and proponents of Arab nationalism in the region. They did this for their own purposes but you see that were they major contributors to Arab nationalism and they brought this concept to the ME. They also participated and instigated a lot of the wars against Israel. In fact we can see what is going on in Egypt and Syria as a war about Arab nationalism vs. Islamism (and their goal of an Islamic "
Uuma" or Calafa (Califate). The Christians in these areas are part of the Arab nationalism and have always been major contributors and proponents of such.
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First off for the record they were Muslims who were killed. Sunni Muslims. And about the Syrian Christians- they were and are on Assads side. They also were a major factor and proponents of Arab nationalism in the region. They did this for their own purposes but you see that were they major contributors to Arab nationalism and they brought this concept to the ME. They also participated and instigated a lot of the wars against Israel. In fact we can see what is going on in Egypt and Syria as a war about Arab nationalism vs. Islamism (and their goal of an Islamic "
Uuma" or Calafa (Califate). The Christians in these areas are part of the Arab nationalism and have always been major contributors and proponents of such.
Somebody posted about Christian nationalism in Egypt, I think. But I can't remember where?
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To Muman613
We say in the Passover Hagada the passage from Tehillim Psalms chapter 79
Pour out thy wrath upon the nations that do not know thee, and upon the kingdoms that do not call upon thy name; for they have devoured Yaakov (Jacob) and laid waste his dwelling place.
Why doesn't Asaf the author of that Psalm pray to G-d like Avraham (Abraham) to have mercy upon the nations because there might be innocent people among them?
One answer (and there are additional ones) is that Sdome (Sodom) for all their evil were not guilty of the crimes, "for they have devoured Yaakov (Jacob) and laid waste his dwelling place".
But Syria which is guilty of this crime, it is certainly fitting to request of G-d to Pour out his wrath against them.
Here I am only focusing on the issue of National Vengeance.
There are however, additional reasons to be happy about the Syrian Civil War.