MK Uri Ariel of Bayit Yehudi Vs. the Jewish prayer book

[muman613]

I suppose I missed Halacha 3 from Rambam in addressing the 'Kiddush Hashem' and 'the ways of peace'...

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1088895/jewish/Chapter-Eleven.htm


Halacha 3
It is permissible to keep an object lost by an idolater, for Deuteronomy 22:3 speaks of returning "an object lost by your brother." Indeed, if one returns such an article, one transgresses a prohibition, for one strengthens the power of the wicked peoples of the world. If, however, one returns it to sanctify God's name, so that others will praise the Jewish people and know that they are trustworthy, this is praiseworthy.

When there is a possibility of the desecration of God's name,it is forbidden to keep an object lost by an idolater, and it must be returned. As part of "the ways of peace," we should always bring in their utensils from the outside, lest they be taken by thieves, as we do for utensils owned by Jews.

[edu]

According to this article it isn't even clear which side in the Syrian Civil War is using the Chemical weapons
http://nationalreview.com/article/356945/wmd-excuse-again-alan-reynolds

August 28, 2013 4:00 AM
The WMD Excuse, Again
Be skeptical of the administration’s claims on Syria. By Alan Reynolds


When it comes to reports of civilian deaths from chemical weapons in opposition-occupied Syrian towns, the Obama White House suddenly claims to be as certain of its own intelligence as the Bush White House was about Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction in October 2002. But it is much easier to rush into war, without congressional or popular approval, than it is to get out.

There was far more humility at the Obama White House the last time similar atrocities led the usual suspects to urge the U.S. to become militarily entangled in Syria. Complaining that “Mr. Obama made no response to a previous claim of chemical-weapons use,” a recent editorial in The Economist concludes that “America’s credibility depends on intervening.” Today, President Obama evidently agrees. But intervening cannot avoid taking sides — helping some favored group of thugs to either seize or retain control of the government (meaning the treasury, army, and police). So, which side is the U.S. supposed to take and why?


AdvertisementThe previous claim of chemical-weapons attacks, which The Economist now accuses President Obama of neglecting, occurred in Aleppo on March 13 and 19. One of the four U.N. investigators, Carla Del Ponte, then said the commission had found some evidence only that anti-government rebels may have used chemical weapons, not the government. Even aside from who used which chemicals, there were other war crimes going on in that rebel-occupied area, including an illegal siege, executions, kidnapping, rape, and torture. As the June “Report of the Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Syrian Arab Republic” explains, “Since July 2012, anti-Government armed groups in Aleppo have surrounded Nubul and Zahra, blocking food, fuel, and medical supplies to 70,000 residents. As the siege tightened in recent months, the population, especially women and children, began to suffer malnutrition. The wounded and sick cannot receive medical treatment. Persons attempting to leave the villages are often kidnapped, held for ransom, or killed. . . . Torture has been documented in detention facilities run by the Judicial Council and the Shari’a Board in Aleppo.”

War crimes and moral obscenities abound on both sides of the Syrian civil war, with thousands of civilians dead and many more displaced. Ruthless people are involved, with Iran on the Assad government’s side and al-Qaeda among the opposition. As for chemical warfare, the U.N. commission concluded in June that “it has not been possible, on the evidence available, to determine the precise chemical agents used, their delivery systems or the perpetrator” [emphasis added]: “Conclusive findings . . . may be reached only after testing samples taken directly from victims or the site of the alleged attack.”

Four days after the latest claim of a chemical attack, the reprehensible Assad government agreed to let U.N. investigators gather the evidence required to determine what sorts of chemicals were used, how they were delivered, and by whom. Without such an investigation, the general public has little information other than dreadful YouTube videos posted by rebels and activists from the Eastern Ghouta region. Get beyond initial revulsion, though, and it becomes clear that those videos provide extremely ambiguous clues about “the precise chemical agents used, their delivery systems or the perpetrator.”

As the New York Times reported, “visual evidence uploaded to YouTube makes it clear that a large number of civilians were killed on Wednesday, including women, children and the elderly. What remained unclear was how they died, and whether they were victims of a conventional chemical agent, like sarin or mustard gas, or if their deaths might have been caused by the use of a weaker agent in a confined space. Video shared online shows graphic images of dozens of dead people, including women and a large number of young children, including babies in diapers, most of whom were said to have suffocated.” Note that suffocation is not a primary symptom of sarin (which causes convulsions and vomiting) or mustard (which causes blistering). Suffocation instead points to “a weaker agent in a confined space,” such as a toxic industrial chemical or chlorine, perhaps in schools or buses. The conspicuous absence of vomit on the floors or clothing makes sarin or any other nerve gas an extremely unlikely culprit.

The White House nevertheless claims little doubt about the delivery mechanism (small rockets rather than confined spaces), which is why they have little doubt about the perpetrator. “U.S. spy agencies . . . concluded that the type of rocket used was solely in the possession of regime forces, not the opposition.” That is inconclusive. If U.S. spy agencies actually possess such rockets, not just photos supplied by the opposition, why weren’t the rockets examined to determine the agent used? Since the same rockets are used to deliver conventional explosives, their mere existence (even if discovered at the correct time and place) is insufficient to prove they were filled with illegal chemicals. Moreover, rockets and other weapons from regime forces could have been seized by the opposition in battle, as typical spoils of war.

For more of the article go to the web link above.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

My point in that post is something I hear from some of my gentile friends.

Many have the belief that Jews only care about fellow Jews and the non-Jews can go to hell.

The attitude of people making that claim is that Jews can go to hell. It's hypocrisy.
The fact is, although there were notable individual exceptions, by and large most people did NOT help us during the Holocaust.  The lesson is not that gentiles have something wrong with them, the lesson is stop expecting their help.

I have heard this from several people, and while I always point to the fact that Israel has provided support and help to many nations, the impression that the Jewish people only care about Jews seems to me to be a prevalent attitude.

So if an inaccurate attitude is prevalent, that means I have to compromise my values and distort the Torah in order to constantly remain vigilant in attempting to combat that attitude?
Or are you saying you agree that the attitude is actually true, and since its not inaccurate, we have to pretend that its not true?

I can't agree with either of these approaches - which one is actually yours?

As for gentiles "caring" so deeply about the supposed genocide in Syria, are you aware of how many gentiles there are all over the internet saying that the US shouldn't get involved (genocide be damned) ?  I see it all over youtube, twitter, article comments, etc.   So, do their opinions count too?  Or do only the opinions of gentiles who have unfair criticisms to level at Jews count?   I would say the majority of people, Jew or gentile, don't give a cr.ap about Syria, and rightfully so.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Syria is in a civil war.  Both sides are evil.  They are fighting over political hegemony and control over the country's levers of power.  Both sides are killing each other and often in brutal ways.    That didn't change 5 days ago (if chemical weapons were truly introduced into the battle by one of the sides), and it won't change if the US or the British get involved, as they now seem likely to do.

The idea of characterizing this battle as "genocide" is just playing into the hands of the US administration and British govt who are using the language of genocide purely for political purposes, to justify their impending entry into these affairs.   Both govt's want to be involved in deciding the outcome in Syria, and both know that their populace is extremely unlikely to support their colonialist intentions but are more likely to acquiesce if they can convince their people that they are acting on moral or humanitarian grounds.   That is why they accuse one side of committing genocide against the side which they now intend to help.   I'm sorry but anyone who cannot see this is simply a fool.   The language out of MK Ariel and others in the Israeli regime is simply a propaganda effort aimed at providing justification and cover (essentially it's an act of tuchis-kissing) to their political "allies" or overlords in the US govt in the hopes that the political favor will be reciprocated with favoritism or some other type of help sent Israel's way or Ariel's way in the future by the US administration (but I doubt any such help will be given!).   A well-known term for such a person is "useful idiot."

But by all meas, continue to tug at people's heartstrings with claims of genocide and holocaust when this is nothing like the holocaust, it's not even clear there was a genocide at all, and on top of all that, we don't even know which side utilized chemical weapons.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

One last thing I want to add is that I am sick and tired of people comparing national disputes and political rivalries with what happened in the Holocaust!  These are unrelated things.   
This is the comparison that nazis make because they seek to belittle and minimize the holocaust, whether overtly or subconsciously, or both.   For example, they compare with the holocaust Israel's national dispute with Fakestinians who wish to uproot the regime of Jews and take over the country to be their own land, and they also make this comparison in order to equate Jews with Nazis thereby assuaging their own holocaust-guilt and at the same time discrediting Israel in a propaganda war.   
But more importantly, and more obscenely, this comparison is spitting on the grave of every holocaust victim.   There was no plan of Jews to take over Germany, they did not lead a civil war effort or a revolution, they did not bomb or attack Germans, and certainly not the rest of Europe either.  If anything, Jews wanted to be accepted as the best possible Germans, and assimilation (or at least an attempt at it) was rampant.  The holocaust was unprovoked racial and religious extermination.    A present-day civil war over control of a country cannot be compared with this.  Mass casualties in a bombing campaign (example, Dresden bombing was not a holocaust against Germans) cannot be compared with this.    If a 5th column population tries to ignite a revolution and political upheavel with violent means, it is NOT a HOLOCAUST for the regime to respond in kind and preserve their hegemony using reciprocal violence.   

Please, stop spitting on the graves of holocaust victims.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

  Muman about returning lost objects you only quoted partial laws. You forget to mention the different sages such as the Meiri who say that in a society like in a town where gentiles return lost objects a Jew is compelled and must return a lost object back to a gentile. Now that is compulsion by law. On the other hand in a society where lost objects are not returned a Jew is not compelled to return a lost object of a gentile BUT throughout the Talmud it is highly praised to do such an action and is a Kiddush Hashem. The only difference is that one is not required by the letter of the law. It all comes down to which society one is in. It is like an "eye for an eye" soo to speak but in the positive sense.

[Yerusha]

Rashi on this explains that all of this already happened.
 

There is a Torah principle that prophecies can be repeatedly fulfilled/partly fulfilled over millenia eg that some opinions have Daniel 9-12 as referring to the wars of Alexander the Great, the Hasmoneans etc, does not contradict & is simultaneously true with those later meforshim who say they refer to the wars of the Anti-Moshiach Armilus in the future. That Lubavitch and others hold that Gog & Magog has already been fulfilled by WW2 does not contradict a future invasion of Eretz Yisrael. That 19th c Malbim says that Yeshaya 19 etc is yet to be fulfilled does not contradict 11th c Rashi.

[muman613]

  Muman about returning lost objects you only quoted partial laws. You forget to mention the different sages such as the Meiri who say that in a society like in a town where gentiles return lost objects a Jew is compelled and must return a lost object back to a gentile. Now that is compulsion by law. On the other hand in a society where lost objects are not returned a Jew is not compelled to return a lost object of a gentile BUT throughout the Talmud it is highly praised to do such an action and is a Kiddush Hashem. The only difference is that one is not required by the letter of the law. It all comes down to which society one is in. It is like an "eye for an eye" soo to speak but in the positive sense.

Shalom Tag,

So do we, here in America, live in a society where returning lost items is the law? Not according to most where I live where the motto 'Finders Keepers, Losers Weepers' seems to be the common way of dealing with lost items.

Even though this is the case, as I posted above, it is meritorious for a Jew to return them due to the issues of 'Kiddush Hashem' and also 'The Ways of Peace'.

[muman613]

One last thing I want to add is that I am sick and tired of people comparing national disputes and political rivalries with what happened in the Holocaust!  These are unrelated things.   
This is the comparison that nazis make because they seek to belittle and minimize the holocaust, whether overtly or subconsciously, or both.   For example, they compare with the holocaust Israel's national dispute with Fakestinians who wish to uproot the regime of Jews and take over the country to be their own land, and they also make this comparison in order to equate Jews with Nazis thereby assuaging their own holocaust-guilt and at the same time discrediting Israel in a propaganda war.   
But more importantly, and more obscenely, this comparison is spitting on the grave of every holocaust victim.   There was no plan of Jews to take over Germany, they did not lead a civil war effort or a revolution, they did not bomb or attack Germans, and certainly not the rest of Europe either.  If anything, Jews wanted to be accepted as the best possible Germans, and assimilation (or at least an attempt at it) was rampant.  The holocaust was unprovoked racial and religious extermination.    A present-day civil war over control of a country cannot be compared with this.  Mass casualties in a bombing campaign (example, Dresden bombing was not a holocaust against Germans) cannot be compared with this.    If a 5th column population tries to ignite a revolution and political upheavel with violent means, it is NOT a HOLOCAUST for the regime to respond in kind and preserve their hegemony using reciprocal violence.   

Please, stop spitting on the graves of holocaust victims.

kwrbt, get off it... You are guilty of the very things you accuse others of doing. Claiming that I put words in others mouths when you yourself just did the very thing to me. I did not spit on the graves of the Holocaust victims my friend. By suggesting that we should be more sensitive to the plight of others I am standing on the Torah principles.

I could address several examples where the Torah implores us to stand up against the wrongdoing of others. It is wrong to murder, it is wrong to take the life of innocent people (not guilty of a death penalty crime), it is wrong to stand idle while others are spilling blood.

One lesson of the story of Jonah is that Jonah was sent by Hashem to go instruct the nation of Nineveh to repent. Jonah did not want to do so because in his prophetic vision he knew that the people of Nineveh would one day rise against the Jewish people, thus he would be assisting those who wanted to kill us. But Hashem wanted Jonah to deliver the message of Teshuva so badly that he would have Jonah die by drowning in the sea for not delivering it.

Another interesting lesson from Jonah is that according to some midrashim and sages the Pharoah of Egypt who oppressed the Jews during the Exodus actually survived the Sea of Reeds and became the King of Nineveh. How could the most evil man in History (up to that point) have been allowed to make Teshuva? It seems to me that we can learn a lot from this Yom Kippur portion of the Prophets...

http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-category/jewish-texts/?p=2683
Pharaoh in Ninveh

Can you tell me the story of Pharaoh ruling over the city of Nineveh & its source?

A hint to the idea that Pharaoh did not die at the splitting of the Reed Sea can be found in Exodus 14:28. The verse states that the water covered over the Egyptians, “v’lo nish’ar bahem od echad.” The plain meaning of this verse is that not even one person remained. The Midrash, in Pirkei D’Rabbi Eliezer, says that the verse can be read to mean “up until, but not including one person (i.e. Pharoah), was left.” The Midrash continues to note that Pharoah became king of Nineveh.

Additionally, the commentary Ba’al Ha’turim points points out the following linguistic similarity: In Exodus 14:31 it says, “...And they [the Jewish people] believed in the Lord…”; and in Jonah 3:5 it says, “And the people of Nineveh believed in G-d….” Both verses use the word “Va’yaminu”—and they believed. This points us to the Midrash quoted above, and explains that the people of Nineveh were brought to belief in G-d by Pharaoh, when he told them of the wonders that occurred in Egypt and in the Red Sea.

The implications of this Midrash are truly astounding! The fact that someone like Pharoah, who time and again refused to recognize the power of G-d, could repent and teach a whole city about the truth of G-d, is a remarkable lesson in the strength of repentance.

[muman613]

I would also like to clear up some issues which seem to be getting confused...

1) I do not support an American strike on the Syrians.
2) In general I believe that it is OK for the Syrian regime to exterminate the Al-Queda and Muslim Brotherhood and Hezbolla operatives in the country.
3) My involvement in this thread has been simply to point out that when a dictator resorts to WMD use against civilian population I believe someone must speak out against it.

I do pray for the sparing of the innocent lives in Syria. Obviously in my definition innocent means that they do not harbor hatred for Israel, Hashems people.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

בס''ד

When Muslim Nazis slaughter Muslim Nazis, all sane Jews rejoice.

Praying for "innocent" Syrians is like praying for "innocent" Germans during the holocaust. The only difference between the Muslim Nazis and the German Nazis is that G-d has prevented the Muslims from succeeding in carrying out another holocaust against us.

The Jews in this generation are sick. They need a national couch. After over 100 years in which the Muslims have sought to exterminate the Jews in the Holy Land, we have Jews who pray for their would-be destroyers.

Hashem miraculously gets rid of some of our enemies by getting them to kill each other, and we have Jews who are upset about this. How disgusting.

[muman613]

Chaim,

Are you talking about me? I hope you are not because you seem to be suggesting that I am praying for our enemies. I surely am not.

There were INNOCENT GERMANS and there were Germans and other non-Jews who did a lot to help the Jewish people. Not all Germans were Nazi monsters. I hope you realize that saying that all Germans are guilty of the Holocaust is not factually true.

You have even said that there are good German members of JTF. Should they not be offended for your saying that there were no innocent Germans during the Holocaust?

[muman613]

So I also assume it is wrong to pray for the Coptic Christians because they are not our blood, and the church has oppressed us for many centuries... So I should not feel anything for the Christians being killed in egypt...

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

Chaim,

Are you talking about me? I hope you are not because you seem to be suggesting that I am praying for our enemies. I surely am not.

There were INNOCENT GERMANS and there were Germans and other non-Jews who did a lot to help the Jewish people. Not all Germans were Nazi monsters. I hope you realize that saying that all Germans are guilty of the Holocaust is not factually true.

You have even said that there are good German members of JTF. Should they not be offended for your saying that there were no innocent Germans during the Holocaust?

בס''ד

Almost all Germans were Nazis. Very few Germans were innocent. What you are writing now is holocaust revisionism.

We have one member of the forum from Germany is a good person. There are exceptions to the rule.

I am not referring to Americans of German descent. They are sometimes several generations removed from Germany and so they are far more American than German.

But what the German people as a whole did to the Jews was the worst crime in human history and can never be forgotten or forgiven.

There were INNOCENT GERMANS and there were Germans and other non-Jews who did a lot to help the Jewish people.

Germans did a lot to help the Jewish people?! Are you kidding? You are completely distorting history. You obviously know nothing about what happened in Nazi Germany. The handful of Germans who tried to help Jews out of 80 million Germans is a joke.

Not all Germans were Nazi monsters.

Almost all Germans were Nazi monsters. Almost all supported Hitler after he seized power. Hitler was by far the most popular leader in German history.

[muman613]

I agree that a majority of Germans were immensely evil for allowing such barbaric decimation of the Jewish people, and the other races and peoples who were oppressed.

But my point, which basically is the point made by Abraham our father, that there were some who did save Jews (Schindler is one example, Raul Wallenberg is another one) even at the risk of their own families. There is the concept of Righteous Among Nations and there are numerous examples of Germans who did try to help Jews. Just a couple weeks ago I heard from a Holocaust Survivor (who was in Aushwitz) that he was assisted by a righteous gentile in Germany... The righteous ones deserve the prayers of the Jewish people. At least this is my opinion...

[muman613]

Another story of a righteous German gentile:

http://www.aish.com/ho/p/49082441.html

The Leica is the pioneer 35mm camera. It is a German product -- precise, minimalist, and utterly efficient. Behind its worldwide acceptance as a creative tool was a family-owned, socially oriented firm that during the Nazi era acted with uncommon grace, generosity and modesty. E. Leitz, Inc., designer and manufacturer of Germany's most famous photographic product, saved the company's Jews.

And Ernst Leitz II, the steely-eyed Protestant patriarch who headed the closely held firm as the Holocaust loomed across Europe, acted in such a way as to earn the title, "The Photography Industry's Schindler."

As soon as Adolf Hitler was named chancellor of Germany in 1933, Ernst Leitz II began receiving frantic calls from Jewish associates, asking for his help in getting them and their families out of the country. As Christians, Leitz and his family were, of course, immune to Nazi Germany's Nuremberg laws, which restricted the movement of Jews and limited their professional activities.

To help his Jewish workers and colleagues, Leitz quietly established what has become known among historians of the Holocaust as "The Leica Freedom Train," a covert means of allowing Jews to leave Germany in the guise of Leitz employees being assigned overseas.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

בס''ד

Wallenberg was Swedish. And he had virtually no help from his fellow Swedes when he sought to save Hungarian Jews.

There were very, very few Schindlers.

there are numerous examples of Germans who did try to help Jews.

This is a complete lie. You are now repeating what the Germans want us to believe to try to "cleanse" their vile history.

I see that you are now searching for examples to try to prove that there were many good Germans. The fact is the Germans fanatically and almost universally supported Hitler.

[muman613]

בס''ד

Wallenberg was Swedish. And he had virtually no help from his fellow Swedes when he sought to save Hungarian Jews.

There were very, very few Schindlers.

This is a complete lie. You are now repeating what the Germans want us to believe to try to "cleanse" their vile history.

I see that you are now searching for examples to try to prove that there were many good Germans. The fact is the Germans fanatically and almost universally supported Hitler.

I agree with you that Hitler was supported by the majority of Germans. I am not arguing about that. I am saying that there are examples of righteous Germans who deserve our prayers, nothing else about Germans.

By extension I am suggesting that there are innocent syrians who do not hate Jews. It is these whom I have labelled 'innocent' for whom my sentiments are with.

I understand the entire collective responsibility thing. This was one of the lessons regarding the wiping out of the city of Shechem because of the action of Chamor. Indeed the innocent will be destroyed along with the wicked when the decree is delivered. I understand this, and yet I hold out hope that the innocent will be spared.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Muman, your (deliberate?) obtuseness is infuriating.  Thankfully, I am a calm person and have pretty decent control over my temper, so I didn't smash any inanimate objects upon reading your post.

kwrbt, get off it... You are guilty of the very things you accuse others of doing. Claiming that I put words in others mouths when you yourself just did the very thing to me. I did not spit on the graves of the Holocaust victims my friend.

What words did I put in your mouth?  What words?
You DID equate one side of a Syrian civil war with victims of the Holocaust.  And I accused THAT EQUATION as being an insult to every holocaust victim.  Why?  Because by comparing them with people fomenting political rebellion and provoking violent reciprocation (things which holocaust victims did NOT do), you are essentially blaming holocaust victims for what was in reality an unfair victimization.   Because both sides of the Syrian civil war are guilty of crimes, and both sides deserve (at least in part) to incur the wrath of the opposing side based on their actions taken against the other side.    So how can you possibly say with a straight face that holocaust victims are in any way similar to this scenario?

As I said before, it is rational for the Syrian regime to react to violence with violence to preserve itself.   When a regime puts down a violent rebellion, it is NOT a holocaust.

By suggesting that we should be more sensitive to the plight of others I am standing on the Torah principles. 

But you didn't just implore us:  "Be more sensitive to the plight of others."   You compared and equated holocaust victims with moslem brotherhood jihadis and syrian rebels and syrian nazi so-called civilians.  And that is what I took issue with. That is not a Torah principle.   Equating, as you have done here, things that are different, makes a mockery of human intellect.

And since you are claiming I put words in your mouth, then just so you don't forget what you actually said, I'll quote you directly right now.  This is what you replied to me in this thread when I said that I want the most possible Syrians to perish in the Syrian civil war:
"

So I suppose we should have never expected the non-Jews to have helped us during the Holocaust. No wonder nobody did anything and let 6 million Jews die in that churban.

"

With silly accusations out of the way, let's continue.

I could address several examples where the Torah implores us to stand up against the wrongdoing of others.

Well luckily for me, I didn't claim that people shouldn't stand up against the wrongdoing of others.
(I wonder, what do you mean by "stand up" exactly?)

It is wrong to murder,

Well luckily for me, I didn't claim that it is not wrong to murder.

it is wrong to take the life of innocent people (not guilty of a death penalty crime),

Well luckily for me, I didn't claim that it is not wrong to take the life of innocent people (didn't you just say the same thing by saying murder?)

it is wrong to stand idle while others are spilling blood.

Well luckily for me, I didn't claim it is right to stand idle "while others are spilling blood."  (But still, hopefully you realize that you have misquoted the verse).

One lesson of the story of Jonah is that Jonah was sent by Hashem to go instruct the nation of Nineveh to repent. Jonah did not want to do so because in his prophetic vision he knew that the people of Nineveh would one day rise against the Jewish people, thus he would be assisting those who wanted to kill us. But Hashem wanted Jonah to deliver the message of Teshuva so badly that he would have Jonah die by drowning in the sea for not delivering it.   

With the number of incongruous things you equate, you sound like a reform rabbi.   Why don't we also bring up "love your fellow like yourself" and "love Hashem your God with all your heart all your soul and all your possessions" to justify insulting the memory of holocaust victims?    Afterall, if we have to love Hashem with all our hearts, we have to love Syrians too, and therefore they are the same as holocaust victims, right?     The story of Jonah and the pesukim I just referred to have nothing to do with genocide or chemical warfare in Syria which themselves have nothing to do with the holocaust.

Another interesting lesson from Jonah is that according to some midrashim and sages the Pharoah of Egypt who oppressed the Jews during the Exodus actually survived the Sea of Reeds and became the King of Nineveh. How could the most evil man in History (up to that point) have been allowed to make Teshuva? 

Your question doesn't make sense.  Everyone is "allowed" to do teshuvah.   Why would anyone not be allowed to do sincere teshuvah?
Meanwhile on planet earth, we don't go around assuming that every criminal beast and animal HAS ALREADY DONE TESHUVAH when they haven't.    Especially not rodfim, nazis, and enemies of our people.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Muman, your (deliberate?) obtuseness is infuriating.  Thankfully, I am a calm person and have pretty decent control over my temper, so I didn't smash any inanimate objects upon reading your post.

What words did I put in your mouth?  What words?
You DID equate one side of a Syrian civil war with victims of the Holocaust.  And I accused THAT EQUATION as being an insult to every holocaust victim.  Why?  Because by comparing them with people fomenting political rebellion and provoking violent reciprocation, you are essentially blaming holocaust victims for what was in reality an unfair victimization.   Because both sides of the Syrian civil war are guilty of crimes, and both sides deserve (at least in part) to incur the wrath of the opposing side based on their actions taken against the other side.    So how can you possibly say with a straight face that holocaust victims are in any way similar to this scenario?

As I said before, it is rational for the Syrian regime to react to violence with violence to preserve itself.   When a regime puts down a violent rebellion, it is NOT a holocaust.

But you didn't just implore us:  "Be more sensitive to the plight of others."   You compared and equated holocaust victims with moslem brotherhood jihadis and syrian rebels.  And that is what I took issue with. That is not a Torah principle.   Equating, as you have done here, things that are different, makes a mockery of human intellect.

And since you are claiming I put words in your mouth, then just so you don't forget what you actually said, I'll quote you directly right now.  This is what you replied to me in this thread when I said that I want the most possible Syrians to perish in the Syrian civil war:
""

With silly accusations out of the way, let's continue.
Well luckily for me, I didn't claim that people shouldn't stand up against the wrongdoing of others.
(I wonder, what do you mean by "stand up" exactly?)
Well luckily for me, I didn't claim that it is not wrong to murder.Well luckily for me, I didn't claim that it is not wrong to take the life of innocent people (didn't you just say the same thing by saying murder?)

Well luckily for me, I didn't claim it is right to stand idle "while others are spilling blood."  (But still, hopefully you realize that you have misquoted the verse).

With the number of incongruous things you equate, you sound like a reform rabbi.   Why don't we also bring up "love your fellow like yourself" and "love Hashem your God with all your heart all your soul and all your possessions" to justify insulting the memory of holocaust victims?    Afterall, if we have to love Hashem with all our hearts, we have to love Syrians too, and therefore they are the same as holocaust victims, right?     The story of Jonah and the pesukim I just referred to have nothing to do with genocide or chemical warfare in Syria which themselves have nothing to do with the holocaust.

Your question doesn't make sense.  Everyone is "allowed" to do teshuvah.   Why would anyone not be allowed to do sincere teshuvah?
Meanwhile on planet earth, we don't go around assuming that every criminal beast and animal HAS ALREADY DONE TESHUVAH when they haven't.    Especially not rodfim, nazis, and enemies of our people.

SHUT UP FOR ONCE!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

SHUT UP FOR ONCE!

Gee, that's such a sensible comment which adds value and insight to this conversation in droves.    How can we thank you for your contributions?

If you disagree with something I said then challenge my rationale by stating your own view.  Otherwise, what you have done instead with the above is absolutely worthless.

[muman613]

KWRBT,

I love you but you seem to lack the ability to read what is written.

My statement, which I explained ad-nauseum in this thread, is that Jews have been considered 'clannish' and of caring only for Jews. Often it is asked why the nations of the world did not do more to save the Jews. If we can shut out the suffering of others without any regret for the loss of life we cannot ever ask why they don't do anything to help us.

I am not going to argue with you point for point, because it is pointless.

But I stand by what I said, you can agree or disagree, that is your right.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Gee, that's such a sensible comment which adds value and insight to this conversation in droves.    How can we thank you for your contributions?

If you disagree with something I said then challenge my rationale by stating your own view.  Otherwise, what you have done instead with the above is absolutely worthless.

You're such a nice fellow, I feel for you... I'm sorry I'm not a genius like you!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

KWRBT,

I love you but you seem to lack the ability to read what is written.

My statement, which I explained ad-nauseum in this thread, is that Jews have been considered 'clannish' and of caring only for Jews. Often it is asked why the nations of the world did not do more to save the Jews. If we can shut out the suffering of others without any regret for the loss of life we cannot ever ask why they don't do anything to help us.

Once again you are equating the "suffering" of your Syrian nazi lover-boys with the victimization of Jews in the holocaust.    Shame on you.

I am not going to argue with you point for point, because it is pointless.

Pointless because you are wrong and misguided so what can you possibly say in response when I criticize your absurd opinion and your stance of moral equivalence (which obviously is NOT the ethics of Judaism but rather the "ethics" of modern liberal politics)?

But I stand by what I said, you can agree or disagree, that is your right.

You don't consider the fact that you are insulting the memory of holocaust victims?  You just simply "stand by it?"

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

You're such a nice fellow, I feel for you... I'm sorry I'm not a genius like you!

After screaming "SHUT UP" at me like a little girl, how do you expect me to be nice in my reply?