MK Uri Ariel of Bayit Yehudi Vs. the Jewish prayer book

[edu]

I am not an expert in the Sephardic version of the Jewish prayer book but in at least the Ashkenazik version, we say the following prayer on the Sabbath after the Torah reading.
Artscroll translation:
Father of compassion. Who dwells on high, in His powerful compassion may He recall with compassion the devout, the upright, and the perfect ones; the holy congregations who gave their lives for the Sanctification of the Name - who were beloved and pleasant in their lifetime and in their death were not parted [from G-d].They were quicker than eagles and stronger than lions to do their Creator's will and their Rock's desire. May our G-d remember them for good with the other righteous of the world. May He, before our eyes, exact retribution for the spilled blood of his servants, as it is written in the Torah of Moses, the man of G-d: 'O nations, sing the praise of His people'. And by your servants, the prophets, is written saying: 'Though I cleanse [the enemy] - their bloodshed I will not cleanse when Hashem dwells in Zion'. And in the Holy Writings it is said: "Why should the nations say, 'Where is their G-d?' Let there be known among the nations, before our eyes, revenge for your servants spilled blood". And it says: 'For the Avenger of blood has remembered them; He has not forgotten the cry of the humble'. And it says: 'He will judge the corpse-filled nations, He will crush the leader of the mighty land. From a river along the way he shall drink therefore he will proudly lift his head.
The prayer begs that we see with our eyes the vengeance against our enemies.
But what does MK Uri Ariel say:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/171283

“On this day, although it is a day of great joy, I cannot refrain from mentioning what is happening in the north in our neighbor, Syria,” said Ariel, referring to the reports of a deadly chemical attack by regime troops outside of Damascus.

“Of all people, we, who cried out, and have been asking to this day, 'how could the world have been silent?' – We, as people; we, as Jews, cannot remain silent in the face of genocide, no matter who it is and where it is. And I say to ourselves – first of all, to ourselves, as Jews; as citizens of Israel; as a minister in the government of Israel, there will not be another genocide. We will not allow it,” he said.

[muman613]

I agree with Ariel on this issue. The issue is that those who were killed are not the enemy. Surely we rejoice when the glory of Hashem is revealed with the destruction of the wicked. But can it be said that the innocent women and children who were killed in this horrific attack were the enemies of Israel?

This was not the hand of Hashem which killed these innocent people. This was not the glory of G-d which was revealed when Assads wicked forces decided to kill his people. I stand 100% against those who hate Hashem and his chosen nation, but I do not believe that those who died in this chemical weapons attack deserved to die.

If they were muslim brotherhood leaders and members I would rejoice. But this is not the case.

I believe we have a duty to say that it is wrong to kill innocent children. I don't believe that we can say that all Syrians are Amalek, whom we have a duty to utterly destroy, and we will rejoice that Hashems glory will be revealed. But as I said I do not believe that Assad is acting righteous by killing them.

[muman613]

Needless to say that I don't agree that we should prevent the genocide of all people, especially those who are obviously Amelekian in their outlook.

[muman613]

Why do you think the Torah commands us to not hate the Egyptian in our hearts? Even though Egypt was one of the worst antisemitic places on the planet and enslaved us for 200+ years. The Torah clearly doesn't want us to hate the Egyptian because we lived in Egypt and because of Hakat Hatov we must not hate all Egyptians as a result of having been strangers in their land. Should we hate all Syrians even though there were thriving Jewish communities in Syria?

http://www.torah.org/learning/ravfrand/5758/kiseitzei.html

"You shall not hate an Edomite, for he is your brother; and you shall not hate an Egyptian, for you were a stranger in his land." [Devorim 23:8]. Three generations after converting they are allowed to marry into the Jewish people.

Rashi points out that the Egyptians were not righteous people - we suffered greatly at their hands. Why then do we let them marry into our nation? This teaches us, Rashi says, that it is worse to cause a person to sin than it is to kill him.

Midyan hired Bilaam and caused the Jewish people to have illicit relations with the daughters of Moab. As a result of causing the Jewish people to sin, Moab deserved a worse fate than the Egyptians did for actually killing Jewish people. "For one who kills a person, takes him out (only) from this world; whereas one who corrupts causes him to be totally wiped out (even from the world to come)".

The way the Torah deals with one who causes others to sin is stricter than the way it deals with any other type of transgression. The classic example of one who causes someone else to sin is the Meisis (the one who attempts to convince others to worship idolatry) [Devorim 13:7-12]. In unprecedented treatment, the Torah tells us not to have mercy upon the Meisis. Even though usually Beis Din always tries to find leniencies for an accused, here we are told to 'throw the book at him'. He requires no warning and we are allowed to entrap him by hiding witnesses and so forth. The reason is because he tried to make people sin, to take them away from G-d, to take them off the right track.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I agree with Ariel on this issue. The issue is that those who were killed are not the enemy. Surely we rejoice when the glory of Hashem is revealed with the destruction of the wicked. But can it be said that the innocent women and children who were killed in this horrific attack were the enemies of Israel?

Where do you get it from that members of the syrian nation are not our enemies? Do you believe the chemical attacks targeted only women and children specifically?  No it was simply an attack on a largepopulace.  Largescale attacks always hit everyone including some women and children.  The women who together with the men indoctrinate the children as the next generation who will fight jihqd against israel, future terrorists definitely are our enemies.  The more syrians who perish the better.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Why do you think the Torah commands us to not hate the Egyptian in our hearts? Even though Egypt was one of the worst antisemitic places on the planet and enslaved us for 200+ years. The Torah clearly doesn't want us to hate the Egyptian because we lived in Egypt and because of Hakat Hatov we must not hate all Egyptians as a result of having been strangers in their land. Should we hate all Syrians even though there were thriving Jewish communities in Syria?

Egypt didn't fight war against the nascent Jewish commonwealth.  Syria is currently at war with the Jews.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Also, doesn't that have to do with individual egyptians who sojourn in eretz yisrael?  Not the original nation and country which the prophets warn not to ally with....

[muman613]

So I suppose we should have never expected the non-Jews to have helped us during the Holocaust. No wonder nobody did anything and let 6 million Jews die in that churban.

[muman613]

Also, doesn't that have to do with individual egyptians who sojourn in eretz yisrael?  Not the original nation and country which the prophets warn not to ally with....

The commandment allowed the 3rd-4th generation of Egyptians to marry into the Jewish people.

[muman613]

Egypt didn't fight war against the nascent Jewish commonwealth.  Syria is currently at war with the Jews.

I was not aware there was a 'war' with syria to this day. But it appears that the hostilities have never been resolved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Syria_relations

During Syrian civil war[edit source | editbeta]
In January 2012, the IDF Chief of Staff, Benny Gantz stated that Israel would be willing to take in Alawite refugees, if the situation deteriorated for them in Syria, as a result of a revolution.[4]

In November 2012, the Syrian Government called Israel's actions against the Palestinian National Authority during the Operation Pillar of Cloud, "barbaric, reprehensible crimes" and called on the international community to pressure Israel into halting its strikes.[5]

On 3 November, 2012, three Syrian tanks entered the Golan Heights, a demilitarized zone. It was the first time since the Yom Kippur War ended in 1973. Israel complained to the UN peacekeepers in the area.[6][7] There have also been several cross-border shooting incidents in the Golan Heights since the war in Syria erupted.[8]

On 30 January 2013, war planes were reported to have attacked deep within Syrian territory - an alleged Israeli air force operation. The United States believed the target was a convoy carrying sophisticated antiaircraft weaponry outside Damascus that was going to be given to the Hezbollah Shiite militia in Lebanon, but Syrian authorities denied this.[9] On 5 May 2013, Syrian state media reported "Israeli airstrikes" targeting military positions in Damascus, following bombing in Rif Dimashq governorate. They reportedly struck a research center and caused casualties. The US president, Barack Obama, commented that Israel "has to guard against the transfer of advanced weaponry to terrorist organizations like Hezbollah."[10]

US officials said that Israel carried out a strike on 5 July against supplies of P-800 Oniks missiles in Latakia, Syria. The strike was reportedly carried out by a Dolphin-class submarine.[11]

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

This is a big mess Obamo started, and will lead to WW3. Our Biggest enemy Russia, Iran, ect. Is on the side of Assad. We are on the side of the same people that want to impose Sharia law on us, and are killing innocent Christians. And killed thousands of our people. This is a ticking time bomb! What can we do? We either stay out of it, or we go in full force and get as many innocent people as we can, and then nuke the place...

[muman613]

This is a big mess Obamo started, and will lead to WW3. Our Biggest enemy Russia, Iran, ect. Is on the side of Assad. We are on the side of the same people that want to impose Sharia law on us, and are killing innocent Christians. And killed thousands of our people. This is a ticking time bomb! What can we do? We either stay out of it, or we go in full force and get as many innocent people as we can, and then nuke the place...

Indeed O has messed this situation up incredibly. But Israel must be prepared to handle anything syria can throw at her.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

So I suppose we should have never expected the non-Jews to have helped us during the Holocaust. No wonder nobody did anything and let 6 million Jews die in that churban.

Huh?   That makes no sense and has nothing to do with what I wrote.   Sounds like a purely emotional outburst.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The commandment allowed the 3rd-4th generation of Egyptians to marry into the Jewish people.

Exactly.   So why would there be any connection to present-day Syria the nazi country who has a policy of destroying the Jews?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I was not aware there was a 'war' with syria to this day. 

How are you not aware of this?   Do you live under a rock?   Syria, with the help of Iran, directly aids Hezbollah in its war against Israel.   They are also known to aid and arm Hamas.

[edu]

Muman613 please reread Bamidbar (Numbers) CHAPTER 31.
I would also suggest you read Ramban's commentary why Moshe (Moses) was angry about who the Israelites initially kept alive after the war.
I would also suggest you read what the Rambam and the Chafetz Chaim have to say about the commandment of Lo Tichanem.
I would also suggest you read the English translation of Rabbi Kahane's Ohr Haraayon, the Jewish Idea.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

So I suppose we should have never expected the non-Jews to have helped us during the Holocaust. No wonder nobody did anything and let 6 million Jews die in that churban.

 Soo you blaming the Jews for this?

[Yerusha]

Ultimately there is going to be peace in the Middle East, and the Egyptians and Syrians will repent:

"In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian will come into Egypt and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians will serve with the Assyrians.

In that day Israel will be one of three with Egypt and Assyria—a blessing in the midst of the land,  25 whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying, “Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance.” (Yeshaya 19)

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Isaiah Chapter 19 יְשַׁעְיָהוּ


1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and cometh unto Egypt; and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at His presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt within it. 2 And I will spur Egypt against Egypt; and they shall fight every one against his brother, and everyone against his neighbour; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom. 3 And the spirit of Egypt shall be made empty within it; and I will make void the counsel thereof; and they shall seek unto the idols, and to the whisperers, and to the ghosts, and to the familiar spirits. 4 And I will give over the Egyptians into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts. 5 And the waters shall fail from the sea, and the river shall be drained dry, 6 And the rivers shall become foul; the streams of Egypt shall be minished and dried up; the reeds and flags shall wither. 7 The mosses by the Nile, by the brink of the Nile, and all that is sown by the Nile, shall become dry, be driven away, and be no more. 8 The fishers also shall lament, and all they that cast angle into the Nile shall mourn, and they that spread nets upon the waters shall languish. 9 Moreover they that work in combed flax, and they that weave cotton, shall be ashamed. 10 And her foundations shall be crushed, all they that make dams shall be grieved in soul. 11 The princes of Zoan are utter fools; the wisest counsellors of Pharaoh are a senseless counsel; how can ye say unto Pharaoh: 'I am the son of the wise, the son of ancient kings'? 12 Where are they, then, thy wise men? And let them tell thee now; and let them know what the LORD of hosts hath purposed concerning Egypt. 13 The princes of Zoan are become fools, the princes of Noph are deceived; they have caused Egypt to go astray, that are the corner-stone of her tribes. 14 The LORD hath mingled within her a spirit of dizziness; and they have caused Egypt to stagger in every work thereof, as a drunken man staggereth in his vomit. 15 Neither shall there be for Egypt any work, which head or tail, palm-branch or rush, may do. 16 In that day shall Egypt be like unto women; and it shall tremble and fear because of the shaking of the hand of the LORD of hosts, which He shaketh over it. 17 And the land of Judah shall become a terror unto Egypt, whensoever one maketh mention thereof to it; it shall be afraid, because of the purpose of the LORD of hosts, which He purposeth against it. {S} 18 In that day there shall be five cities in the land of Egypt that speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called the city of destruction. {S} 19 In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the LORD. 20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and He will send them a saviour, and a defender, who will deliver them. 21 And the LORD shall make Himself known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day; yea, they shall worship with sacrifice and offering, and shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and shall perform it. 22 And the LORD will smite Egypt, smiting and healing; and they shall return unto the LORD, and He will be entreated of them, and will heal them. {S} 23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria; and the Egyptians shall worship with the Assyrians. {S} 24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, a blessing in the midst of the earth; 25 for that the LORD of hosts hath blessed him, saying: 'Blessed be Egypt My people and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel Mine inheritance.' {S

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1021.htm

{S} 16 For thus hath the Lord said unto me: 'Within a year, according to the years of a hireling, and all the glory of Kedar shall fail; 17 and the residue of the number of the archers, the mighty men of the children of Kedar, shall be diminished; for the LORD, the God of Israel, hath spoken it.' {S}

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Ultimately there is going to be peace in the Middle East, and the Egyptians and Syrians will repent:

"In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian will come into Egypt and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians will serve with the Assyrians.

In that day Israel will be one of three with Egypt and Assyria—a blessing in the midst of the land,  25 whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying, “Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance.” (Yeshaya 19)

 Rashi on this explains that all of this already happened.

  On that day there shall be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and Assyria shall come upon Egypt, and Egypt shall come upon Assyria, and Egypt shall serve with Assyria.       כג. בַּיּוֹם הַהוּא תִּהְיֶה מְסִלָּה מִמִּצְרַיִם אַשּׁוּרָה וּבָא אַשּׁוּר בְּמִצְרַיִם וּמִצְרַיִם בְּאַשּׁוּר וְעָבְדוּ מִצְרַיִם אֶת אַשּׁוּר:
there shall be a highway: And there shall be a paved road by which they will always go from Egypt to Assyria.
    
and Assyria shall come upon Egypt: Jonathan renders: And the Assyrians shall wage war with the Egyptians.
    
24. On that day, Israel shall be a third to Egypt and to Assyria; a blessing in the midst of the land.       כד. בַּיּוֹם הַהוּא יִהְיֶה יִשְׂרָאֵל שְׁלִישִׁיָּה לְמִצְרַיִם וּלְאַשּׁוּר בְּרָכָה בְּקֶרֶב הָאָרֶץ:
Israel shall be a third to Egypt and to Assyria: for a blessing, since there was no prominent nation in the world at that time like Egypt and like Assyria, and the Jews were humble in the days of Ahaz and in the days of Hoshea the son of Elah. And the prophet states that, through the miracle that will be performed for Hezekiah, Israel’s name will be greatly magnified, and they will be as prominent as one of these kingdoms in regards to blessing and greatness.
    
25. Which the Lord of Hosts blessed them, saying, "Blessed is My people Egypt, and the work of My hands Assyria, and My heritage Israel."       כה. אֲשֶׁר בֵּרֲכוֹ יְהֹוָה צְבָאוֹת לֵאמֹר בָּרוּךְ עַמִּי מִצְרַיִם וּמַעֲשֵׂה יָדַי אַשּׁוּר וְנַחֲלָתִי יִשְׂרָאֵל:
Which… blessed them: [lit. him,] i.e., Israel.
    
Blessed is My people: Israel, whom I chose for Myself as a people when they were in Egypt.
    
and the work of My hands: I showed them with the mighty deeds I performed wondrously against Assyria, and through those miracles they will repent and be as though I just made them anew, and they will be My heritage, Israel. Jonathan paraphrased this in a similar manner.

[edu]

Quote from Muman613

So I suppose we should have never expected the non-Jews to have helped us during the Holocaust. No wonder nobody did anything and let 6 million Jews die in that churban.

We have to stop getting our values by blindly trying to do the exact opposite of the Nazis.
So if the Nazis defined Jews as anyone with a Jewish grandfather, secular zionists say we too have to define being Jewish as anyone with a Jewish grandfather (a definition that would include even anti-zionist Secretary of State John Kerry). With this in mind they have imported tens of thousands of Russian Gentiles into Israel, further eroding the true Jewish majority in the land.
What is really proper to do is to ignore what the Nazis did and base our values on Torah values.
So if for example, the Torah says that we should not define someone with a Jewish father or grandfather but a non-Jewish mother as a Jew, we use Torah definitions and not Nazi definitions.
If the Torah says, do not have compassion over the plight of evil Gentiles, in particular when they belong to an enemy nation that is at war at us, we go by this and not by knee-jerk reactions of trying to figure out how to be the opposite of the evil Nazis.

[edu]

Quote from Muman613

So I suppose we should have never expected the non-Jews to have helped us during the Holocaust. No wonder nobody did anything and let 6 million Jews die in that churban.

During all the years of the State of Israel the state has bent over backwards to try to do everything under the sun to get the nations of the world to like us. But nevertheless the United Nations always has biased and lopsided votes against Israel (except on very rare occasions when the U.S.A. trying to please pro-zionist voters puts extremely heavy pressure on the other nations to change their usual voting patterns). This is surely an indication that no how liberal we might try to be we can't function with the expectation that the non-Jews are going to help us out. Usually they won't and even when they do, it will be for their own internal reasons and not because they are impressed by our compassion upon Syrians.
On a deeper level, the Torah says that we are a nation that ideally should dwell alone Bamidbar (Numbers) 23:9 and Rabbi Kahane claims we should even initiate movements in that direction. See also the prophetic work of Michah 5:6.
On a still deeper level, it is Jewish expansion in the land of Israel that will get the Gentiles to be on our side (not compassion on Syrians or Sudanese migrants). This is in accordance with Kol Hator written by a disciple of the Vilna Gaon. We see in Yishayahu {Isaiah} chapter 54 verse 2 and 3 that the prophet describes  Jewish expansion in Israel. This leads to G-d creating a situation in verse 5 "The L-rd of the whole earth is he called".
That is to say for spiritual reasons the Gentiles will start to support us.
One example of this is the huge shift in Gentile support for us that came in the wake of the fantastic success and expansion in the wake of the 6-day war.
A success that wicked or cowardly governments have been trying to undo which contrary to their expectations has led to the weakening of support for the Jewish state.

[muman613]

My point in that post is something I hear from some of my gentile friends.

Many have the belief that Jews only care about fellow Jews and the non-Jews can go to hell. I have heard this from several people, and while I always point to the fact that Israel has provided support and help to many nations, the impression that the Jewish people only care about Jews seems to me to be a prevalent attitude.

We know that even the Jews at the time did not do what they could do during the Shoah but non-Jews don't see it that way. So too with other mitzvot (such as Lashon Hara) where the law concerns Jews relationship to other Jews. I had a long argument with friends who said that since it is not a violation of Lashon Hara to speak about a non-Jew this was indicative of the 'clannish' nature of the Jew.

So too with the mitzvah of returning lost items... While the law specifically discusses a Jew returning a lost item to a Jew I often (correctly or incorrectly) believe it is best to return the lost items of a non-Jew also. Some sages (I will try to find which) say this is correct in order to keep the peace with the non-Jewish nations.

 

[muman613]

Sorry for the digression but here is mention of the merit of returning a lost item to a non-Jew:


http://www.torah.org/advanced/weekly-halacha/5764/kiseitzei.html

Although the basic halachah does not require returning the item of a non-Jew [or even of a Jew who can be halachically classified as a rasha le'hachis, intentionally and deliberately wicked(6)], it is proper to do so in order to sanctify Hashem's Name - kiddush Hashem. If failing to return the item may cause a desecration of Hashem's Name, a chillul Hashem, the finder must return it.(7) If one finds a lost object on Shabbos in an area where carrying is forbidden, he may not pick it up(8.) Even if it is found in an area where carrying is permitted but the item is muktzeh, many poskim(9)hold that one should not pick it up.(10)