Kahanist Singles > Jewish Singles
Worthwhile?
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
http://dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=586&txtSearch=touching%20women
Its the Rambam saying its FORBIDDEN. -
Also I would like to ask why do you seem to bash Haredim, and anyway I cant trush people who allways say the Rambam allows this or that without bringing the source, as in this case which you can see is the opposite.
Please click on the link and listin/ or read, it says its forbidden From the Torah, and not hassidut that you might think.
jdl4ever:
I know what the Rambam says better than the Rabbi who wrote that article does. Don't trust these articles, you got to look up the primary source yourself as R' Kahane taught. This is one of the reasons I poke fun at the Cheredim a lot since many don't use primary sources and therefore get confused all the time. It is quite the opposite of what you claim, that article did not quote the primary source but I'm going to quote the source! Here is the Rambam where it is taken from.
הלכות איסורי ביאה פרק כא
א כל הבא על ערווה מן העריות דרך אברים, או שחיבק ונישק דרך תאווה ונהנה בקירוב בשר--הרי זה לוקה מן התורה: שנאמר "לבלתי עשות מחוקות התועבות" (ויקרא יח,ל); ונאמר "לא תקרבו לגלות ערווה" (ויקרא יח,ו), כלומר לא תקרבו לדברים המביאין לידי גילוי ערווה. [ב] והעושה דבר מחוקות אלו, הרי הוא חשוד על העריות.
I translate "Anyone who lives with a forbidden sexual relationship via the genitals, or he held close and kissed the way of lust and benefited from the encounter of the flesh, he gets lashes from the Torah: as it says etc...
So the Rambam says that the only type of touching that is forbidden is lustful sexual like touching such as sexual kissing. But simple touching is clearly not forbidden as per the Rambam. If he wished to forbid just hugging or simple kissing and hand shaking than he would have stated a hand shaking example, instead of a specific detailed description lustful kissing or as the gentiles call oral sex (he didn't just say kissing, he said "or he held and kissed the way of lust and benefited from the encounter of the flesh"). Many recent Rabbis are more stringent than the Rambam for some reason and rule that as long as some enjoyment occurs in the touching it is forbidden, as that article you wrote stated. Perhaps they read the Rambam differently than the simple reading and think since he wrote "and benefited" that benefit is all that is required to make it forbidden. Personally, I don't see how their opinion can be read in the Rambam and I disagree with their opinion since the Rambam to me is very clear on this issue. If you want to follow their ruling then fine, but I follow the Rambam's ruling.
Not only that but I've been told the Ramban is even more lenient and considers such a kissing example only a Rabbinical commandment since he thinks it is an asmachta but I don't have a Ramban so I can't quote the source with certainty.
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
Its the way Maran understandings the Rambam - Maran is the author of the Shulhan Aruh,- which is the basic book of law for most Jews.
jdl4ever:
--- Quote from: Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim on November 21, 2007, 12:05:12 PM ---What rabbis rule it is okay to kiss on the cheek?
I'm a man and I can say that kissing on the cheek can be lustful too. Chazal were men and knew how men think and feel.
--- End quote ---
You didn't read my post where I quoted the Rambam verbadum and translated him. We were discussing if the Rambam permits touching women and regular kissing on the cheek. We were not discussing what most Rabbis think of this issue, but were discussing if there are great Rabbis of old who permit touching women and if it is the relm of Judaism those Rabbis who permit this. If you read the Rambam, he is very clear that only real sex and oral sex is forbidden, all other forms of touching are permitted. There is only one way to understand the Rambam as if he would have thought that shaking hands is forbidden, he would have menchaned the most lenient example of shaking hands and surely anything more intimite than that would be forbidden. The fact that he only said specifically that oral sex is forbidden, leaving out anything else, it is obvious that he permits the less intimate forms of touching.
Now, the Rambam and Ramban (who is even more lenient) are not the only commentators and there are those who have stricter opinions. As for the Cheredim, my understanding is that most prohibit any contact at all for the reason you gave, but their belief is based on different commentators as the Rambam does not believe it is forbidden from the Torah or Rabbinically for you to have enjoyment from touching women, as long as it is not sexual or sexual like touching. Yukutiel wrote that R' Meir Kahane Zs'l would go with him to the Israeli beaches to stop Jewish girls from marrying arabs. I'm sure that they saw not modestly dressed girls there. Now, the regular religious Jews (Misnagdim, Young Israel types or Dati types) go both ways depending on who you talk to. I know my family and many others have the Tradition that grandparents hug the grandchildren so we obviously have the tradition of the Rambam.
Ari:
Although I'm still somewhat curious, I probably won't go to one of these events. I still have a little time to weigh the pros and cons before the so-called Matzo Ball. I'll let you guys know about a final decision. A JTF dating site, if it could be put together is a pretty good idea. Thanks for the input. O0
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