Author Topic: Secular Zionism - Israel`s founders - shocking video, from shofar.net / amnon yi  (Read 15074 times)

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Offline q_q_

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Here is a shocking video on secular zionism.



careful though, it may bring a tear or two to your eyes.

 It should load eventually
if it starts off full screen, you may want to press ESCAPE to make it small screen, then when it starts, make it full screen.  Or just wait, have faith, it will load!  It is a shocking and very sad video. 






Offline Dexter

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Herzl thought in his early life that converting to Christianety will be the sulotion for "The Jewish Problem". After "Dreyfus affair" he changed his mind and came to the idea of a "Jewish state" or "State for the Jews".
Objecting religiouse regime is very legitimate in my opinion, especiely in the 20th century.

This movie is very tendentious in my opinion.
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline Dexter

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They also give some pictures of so-called Herzl handwrites, but, it's in Hebrew...Herzl didn't know to write in Hebrew. This movie is full of lies, period.
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline Dr. Dan

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Dexter is right.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline q_q_

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all the facts in that video are quotes with sources.

you cannot say they are "lies" if they just use a translation into hebrew. 

so, they were not his handwritten notes. That is a minor thing if his handwritten notes really do say that, just in a language readers will not understand.

Offline Dexter

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all the facts in that video are quotes with sources.

you cannot say they are "lies" if they just use a translation into hebrew. 

so, they were not his handwritten notes. That is a minor thing if his handwritten notes really do say that, just in a language readers will not understand.
Milions of bilions of Nazi articals use "sources". This movie is completly false, it was prooven in Hebrew but I can't find a lot about it in English.
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline q_q_

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all the facts in that video are quotes with sources.

you cannot say they are "lies" if they just use a translation into hebrew. 

so, they were not his handwritten notes. That is a minor thing if his handwritten notes really do say that, just in a language readers will not understand.
Milions of bilions of Nazi articals use "sources". This movie is completly false, it was prooven in Hebrew but I can't find a lot about it in English.

You suggest that sources are irrelevant since nazi articles use sources.  Giving you license now to ignore the sources quoted in the video. 

You can now tell academics, that sources count for nothing, because nazi articles also use sources, and they are lies.

You should know that it is the way sources are used that make or break the integrity of an article or documentary.

A straight out quote from a man`s biography is a good source to know about a man`s views. Some of this is quite well known anyway.  Especially the bit that you refer to.

It is quite well known amongst well informed religious zionists that Herzl - a secular zionist - wanted jews to convert to christianity - as a solution to anti-semitism. And he described it with glee.  That was the source that you questioned. And it is correct.


Offline Dexter

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I already said that herzl suggested that Jews will convert to Christianety:
A. Nothing is antisimetic in that suggestion.
B. Herzl changed his mind later.

Herzl also wanted that the Jewish will be in Uganda, that we would speak German etc', this movie is nonsense and is telling a lot of lies.

Lets start shortly:
*The quote of Mendelson "Be Jewish in your house and a Man outside it" don't mean that Jews aren't human, that's nonsense and just bull$hit. It means that you should'nt have a definion as "Jewish" so you could be "fine" with the gentile, be just "a man".

*The quote of Josef Haim Brenner is so called antisimetic qoute, nonsense, he is talking about the disporal Jew, the wimp that fear from the gentiles so much. JDL was org. that created to defend that disporal Jews that Josef Haim Brenner talked about.

I am not going to watch the movie again beacuse it's very long. But just note how 99% is out of contenst.
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline q_q_

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I already said that herzl suggested that Jews will convert to Christianety:
A. Nothing is antisimetic in that suggestion.


nothing is anti-semitic / self hating, about a jew whose goal is that all jews become christian.

Nothing is anti-semitic about a jew who says that a simple christian is greater than a jewish rabbi?

Nothing is anti-semitic about a man who thinks that only as christians can jews be free and proud. 

He hated judaism.  He hated the religious jew.
 


B. Herzl changed his mind later.

Herzl also wanted that the Jewish will be in Uganda, that we would speak German etc', this movie is nonsense and is telling a lot of lies.


<sarcasm>
Oh, if he wanted a jewish state in Uganda, that proves he is no anti-semite.
</sarcasm>

Lets start shortly:
*The quote of Mendelson "Be Jewish in your house and a Man outside it" don't mean that Jews aren't human, that's nonsense and just bull$hit. It means that you should'nt have a definion as "Jewish" so you could be "fine" with the gentile, be just "a man".


funny to see you defend that one.  That is not what it means.

I live in Britain, a variation of that was passed down, one of my great grandfathers.  It was to be a Jew in the home, and a gentleman outside.   

There is a bit of a bad implication there. But I sympathise with that statement.  Even nowadays I hear Orthodox jews say they do not want to wear a tallit outdoors (e.g. on shabbat when no eruv), because it flaunts their jewishness in the non-jews faces.    I would hope that jews nowadays know that anti-semites will hate us regardless. But I understand this concern, as a mechanism against anti-semitism.

This is not a major point in the video.

Notice that the next person or the one after that, they interview , covesr Jabotinsky. about 26min in. 
And he says that Jews who refuse to cut their beards should not be allowed to vote.
Don`t defend that, please. I know you don`t have a beard, but have some self respect. Sorry if I am too tough, I know you are only 11 ;-)


*The quote of Josef Haim Brenner is so called antisimetic qoute, nonsense, he is talking about the disporal Jew, the wimp that fear from the gentiles so much. JDL was org. that created to defend that disporal Jews that Josef Haim Brenner talked about.

I am not going to watch the movie again beacuse it's very long. But just note how 99% is out of contenst.

The JDL empowered diaspora jews to fight anti-semites. 

This anti-semitic slime is saying that diaspora jews are subhuman. And that they deserve anti-semitism.

You cannot in your right mind, compare that to the JDL.  Which taught Jewish Pride.  (regardless of where the jew lived).





Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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I saw the video before, it is true, im sorry for the state worshippers who might be offended, but the truth is the truth.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline q_q_

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I saw the video before, it is true, im sorry for the state worshippers who might be offended, but the truth is the truth.

That suggests a bit, that those who are not "state worshippers" will not be suprised.

I saw this video this year or last year. After I knew of the Rabin conspiracy, and prob after Amona.   I was far from a "state worshipper".  My image of the state of israel had already been shattered and reformed. There isn`t much ill behaviour that could suprise me, and most news I see is not news, it is just recycled stuff. But I found this video was very moving,  and in parts, quite shocking.

I did have a high opinion of Jabotinsky, but I was almost as stunned as the head of betar when he was given a quote from jabotinsky.  Many people on this forum will find this video of interest.  It is pretty much 100% quoting sources, naming sources. 

It is a very upsetting video, perhaps as upsetting as schindler`s list, but I don`t like that film, I do not want to compare this to that.    And this is a far more practical film since it applies to today.   

Don`t worry though, it is not as shattering as the Amona footage.  But it is very sad. And it is very important to know about.



 

Offline Dexter

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In the wimpy behavior won't you expect that the strong will take advantage on tham ?

As I said, almost everything is out of contest, what Jabutinsky said wasn't. But, in case you didn't note, you can't think he wanted that in the future because he never said it again. Especiely when he came up whit his new Zionism.
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline kahaneloyalist

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q_q, Rav Amnon Yitzhak wants to make Jews return to the Torah, in order to do that he destroys their previous belief in Secular Zionism. Sadly he uses out of context quotes or opinions that people changed to do it.
"For it is through the mercy of fools that all Justice is lost"
Ramban

Offline q_q_

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this video is not really an Amnon Yitzchak video.  Fine, it is on his website, but for a start.. In all the other videos, he talks .  In this one, he is not even in it.  I don`t think he had anything to do with this one.

I do not like his stuff, I have seen many of his other videos and I can see he uses very clever to and fro philosophical arguments to confuse people into agreeing with him.  But this video is nothing like the others.

Really...  I have viewed many of his other videos, and seen his thing.  This video a totally different thing. The only thing it has to do with Amnon Yitzchak is that it is on his website.

This video does not cut interviews or quotes like he does.  Infact, mentioning amnon yitzchak just confuses the issue.

This video is a fantastic documentary



« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 07:02:08 AM by q_q_ »

Offline Dexter

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this video is not really an Amnon Yitzchak video.  Fine, it is on his website, but for a start.. In all the other videos, he talks .  In this one, he is not even in it.  I don`t think he had anything to do with this one.

I do not like his stuff, I have seen many of his other videos and I can see he uses very clever to and fro philosophical arguments to confuse people into agreeing with him.  But this video is nothing like the others.

Really...  I have viewed many of his other videos, and seen his thing.  This video a totally different thing. The only thing it has to do with Amnon Yitzchak is that it is on his website.

This video does not cut interviews or quotes like he does.  Infact, mentioning amnon yitzchak just confuses the issue.

This video is a fantastic documentary




It's his, he and his men made it for him.
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline q_q_

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this video is not really an Amnon Yitzchak video.  Fine, it is on his website, but for a start.. In all the other videos, he talks .  In this one, he is not even in it.  I don`t think he had anything to do with this one.

I do not like his stuff, I have seen many of his other videos and I can see he uses very clever to and fro philosophical arguments to confuse people into agreeing with him.  But this video is nothing like the others.

Really...  I have viewed many of his other videos, and seen his thing.  This video a totally different thing. The only thing it has to do with Amnon Yitzchak is that it is on his website.

This video does not cut interviews or quotes like he does.  Infact, mentioning amnon yitzchak just confuses the issue.

This video is a fantastic documentary




It's his, he and his men made it for him.

so amnon yitzchak is a big fat liar, and anybody that makes a video that is OKed by him, is a big fat liar too.

Let`s be a bit more sophisticated, ok?


 

   
« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 11:51:56 AM by q_q_ »

Offline Dexter

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this video is not really an Amnon Yitzchak video.  Fine, it is on his website, but for a start.. In all the other videos, he talks .  In this one, he is not even in it.  I don`t think he had anything to do with this one.

I do not like his stuff, I have seen many of his other videos and I can see he uses very clever to and fro philosophical arguments to confuse people into agreeing with him.  But this video is nothing like the others.

Really...  I have viewed many of his other videos, and seen his thing.  This video a totally different thing. The only thing it has to do with Amnon Yitzchak is that it is on his website.

This video does not cut interviews or quotes like he does.  Infact, mentioning amnon yitzchak just confuses the issue.

This video is a fantastic documentary




It's his, he and his men made it for him.

so amnon yitzchak is a big fat liar, and anybody that makes a video that is OKed by him, is a big fat liar too.

Let`s be a bit more sophisticated, ok?


Amnon Yitzhack is a liar, he lies avout many things. But hey, what do you know about him ? He's famouse here in Israel about his lies.
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline q_q_

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Amnon Yitzhack is a liar, he lies avout many things. But hey, what do you know about him ? He's famouse here in Israel about his lies.

His only "part" in this video is having it on his website.   Despite your claims that his guys made it for him (YOUR LIES!!) I even have my doubts that his guys made it for him, the host of this video does not wear a kippa.

The israeli press lied about Kahane too, israelis thought he was a maniac.  (they did not have youtube or the israeli equivalent in those days)

Amnon yitzchak`s style can be criticised, but just saying "he is a liar", and that any video on his site is lies, regardless of how well it documents itself with sources, and how well it uses sources, is ridiculous.

You started off more honestly, dealing with the issues from the small amount of the video that you watched. I responded. You left it.  Then you tried excuses to get out of it, but you made the "mistake" of stating your criticism of the content.  You left my response, unable to deal with it.

So you try another excuse.  Sources, you say, are irrelevant, because anybody can quote sources, any nazi site.  So, I responded to that one.

Why though, don`t you go back to where you stated your criticisms, and look at my response, and try to respond?

It should be very easy for you. You say that the video has already been proven to be LIES !




 

Offline Dexter

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Amnon Yitzhack is a liar, he lies avout many things. But hey, what do you know about him ? He's famouse here in Israel about his lies.

His only "part" in this video is having it on his website.   Despite your claims that his guys made it for him (YOUR LIES!!) I even have my doubts that his guys made it for him, the host of this video does not wear a kippa.

The israeli press lied about Kahane too, israelis thought he was a maniac.  (they did not have youtube or the israeli equivalent in those days)

Amnon yitzchak`s style can be criticised, but just saying "he is a liar", and that any video on his site is lies, regardless of how well it documents itself with sources, and how well it uses sources, is ridiculous.

You started off more honestly, dealing with the issues from the small amount of the video that you watched. I responded. You left it.  Then you tried excuses to get out of it, but you made the "mistake" of stating your criticism of the content.  You left my response, unable to deal with it.

So you try another excuse.  Sources, you say, are irrelevant, because anybody can quote sources, any nazi site.  So, I responded to that one.

Why though, don`t you go back to where you stated your criticisms, and look at my response, and try to respond?

It should be very easy for you. You say that the video has already been proven to be LIES !




 
Hahaha!!! THIS VIDEO WAS CREATED BY HIS ORGANIZION!!!!!!!! IT IS A FACT!! He himself spreaded this movie in diffrent places in Israel under his name. He is anti-Zionist just as Neturei Karta.

We don't know about his lies because the media tells us, we listen his lies alone. Not only the seculer are against him because he is a liar, also the National Religious are. They think he is a true Jewish Mission that tells a lot of lies and he is also anti-Zionist.

Ever read the books that he is using as sources ? I don't think so. Tomarrow or very soon I'll search about this so-called sources. But I never heard of most of tham and probably they are all ficatiob.

Tell me, are you working for him ?

Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline q_q_

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We don't know about his lies because the media tells us, we listen his lies alone. Not only the seculer are against him because he is a liar, also the National Religious are. They think he is a true Jewish Mission that tells a lot of lies and he is also anti-Zionist.

Ever read the books that he is using as sources ? I don't think so. Tomarrow or very soon I'll search about this so-called sources. But I never heard of most of tham and probably they are all ficatiob.

Tell me, are you working for him ?



I do not have anything to do with Amnon Yitzchak.  I said my criticism of Amnon Yitzchak already, and that the criticism does not apply to any part of this video.


Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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sure dexter, Rav Amnon is a lier  ::) . You have no proof, and are just name calling. Also we shoulsnt forget that you dont even claim to belive in Judaism so your opinion of the great Rav is irrelevent.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Dexter

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sure dexter, Rav Amnon is a lier  ::) . You have no proof, and are just name calling. Also we shoulsnt forget that you dont even claim to belive in Judaism so your opinion of the great Rav is irrelevent.
Yes, Amnon Yitzhak is a liar, and the fact I don't belief in Judaism have nothing to do with it. I will give you some examples of his lies:
*He claimed that the fact that coal was found in Antarctica proves that the ancient coal origin isn't of old forests. When people said that in the past Antartica was in the the equator, means that there was trees on it, he said it's a lie and that most scientist don't believe it. Well, that is a lie.
*That movie

Amnon Yitzhak said in the past that
"There are two big criminals in the history of the Jewish people, Herzl and Hitler."
"The Holocaust was a punishment because of the enlightenment age" (Even tough almost a half of the Jews were Hassidic)
*In 1997 he opened a "Attraction and Humor evening", there he did "the ascent of the soul" ritual for the solider that were killed in 1996.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 01:14:54 PM by Dexter »
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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All lies. YES the holocaust was becuase of the Haskalah movement, and becuase of the assimilation that started in Germany. (and the reform movements etc.).
 About the soldiers- he did address that in one of his videos, and it was all lies from the media. The media allways makes up stories and lies against him and unfortunatly many fools like you belive them.
 
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Dexter

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All lies. YES the holocaust was becuase of the Haskalah movement, and becuase of the assimilation that started in Germany. (and the reform movements etc.).
 About the soldiers- he did address that in one of his videos, and it was all lies from the media. The media allways makes up stories and lies against him and unfortunatly many fools like you belive them.
 

What lies ? non of this was lies.

You claim to know why the holocaust happend ? You aren't G-d and you can't know what he did.
And no, about the solider it isn't lies. The family itself respind to it. And, you are the fool over here because you actually defend him.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 02:06:14 PM by Dexter »
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline q_q_

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sure dexter, Rav Amnon is a lier  ::) . You have no proof, and are just name calling. Also we shoulsnt forget that you dont even claim to belive in Judaism so your opinion of the great Rav is irrelevent.

I didn`t really want to turn this into a discussion of amnon yitzchak,  as the expense of the contents of the video. 
Dexter was going to deal with the contents of the video..

Obviously one can provide good evidence that "Amnon Yitzchak is a liar". The shows, that make up all but one of his videos, involve him sitting in front of people, making a presentation.   When he does "science" ones, and convinces people, I would expect him to not have good science. He is a non scientist talking to non scientists, about science. And when he gets into his philosophical to and fro discussion, it is the same flawed concept.

And at one point in one of his videos, I really felt very sick, and could not believe he had said what he said. 

On the other hand, there are wonderful , incredible scenes, where a woman comes to him crying that she cannot conceive, and the arab women around her are having many children.  And rav amnon yitzchak , told her to perform the mitzva of covering her hair, and blessed her, and a year later (9 months + 3 months), she conceived. And he is at the bris-circumcision.     

If he is a "great rav" , maybe in that he makes many people religious, and he puts on a good show, and at best, you might think he is a miracle worker!  But what sefarim(torah books) has he written? 

I really did not want to divert this thread into a discussion all about amnon yitzchak , since as I have argued, he is not relevant to the content of this video.   Dexter was going to comment on the contents of the video. He had started , and I responded to that, and he gave up and tried to look for excuses. Don`t give him more excuses.

Proving that amnon yitzchak is a liar or is not a liar, is irrelevant.  I really do not want to repeat why.  I already explained it to Dexter and he agreed to deal with the content. Then you come along and bring it up.