Author Topic: My letter to Sarah. (Please make this a sticky thread for 2 weeks)  (Read 15208 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline q_q_

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3819
Re: My letter to Sarah. (Please make this a sticky thread for 2 weeks)
« Reply #75 on: December 04, 2007, 12:25:02 PM »
True story, but that is a dangerous and illogical road..

For one thing, there are the scientific hoaxes done by muslims, with scientists allegedly claiming to have been convinced. Muslims excel at these hoaxes. This is not a hoax, but one would have to distinguish them.  Here is an article on the muslim one.  http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/DGolden/touting_science.htm

Of the 3 popular books Gerald Shroeder put out first. I like 2 of them.   I understand that the third was basically about intelligent design. Apparently that was the one that convinced the renowned aethist Anthony Flew.

But so what..

And his belief is not so logically founded anyhow..

"
 In his letter of Jan. 2, 2005, Flew says that if the “so confident, atheist polemicist Richard Dawkins” tells him that Schroeder is wrong, he will admit that Schroeder is wrong. But he assumes that Dawkins accepts Schroeder’s arguments, since Dawkins “made no reference to your article.”
.....
TWO YEARS LATER, Flew’s doubts have disappeared, and the philosopher has a reinvigorated faith in his theistic friends. In his new book, he freely cites Schroeder, Haldane and Varghese
"

Of shroeder`s popular first 3 books
He read Shroeder`s intelligent design book.
I have read Shroder`s other 2 books , they are very good, but details in the science has come under some criticism..
Not necessarily by aethists..
Rabbi Prof Dr Dovid Gottlieb, a brilliantly logical, serious rabbi. Prof philosophy, PhD mathematical deduction, Wrote a critique..
http://www.dovidgottlieb.com/comments/CommentsGenesisBigBang.htm
Of course, this does not prove anything, we would have to see Shroeder`s response.. And either way, if shroder is right or wrong, it is irrelevant.. It is a bad idea to rest belief in G-d on such a weak foundation.. as to say "Oh, this great aethist turned into a theist", so it must be logical.
Shroeder has a degree from MIT, and I think has become a rabbi, but his science is questioned by other scientists, like orthodox jewish professor natan aviezer, and as a rabbi, he is not well known or renowned. What torah books or lectures has he written or given.    I don`t think of this about Flew or even Shroeder is relevant to proving G-d.

If one finds intelligent design convincing, then fine..
that is more logical than just relying on an aethist turned theist.



Offline mord

  • Global Moderator
  • Platinum JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 25853
Re: My letter to Sarah. (Please make this a sticky thread for 2 weeks)
« Reply #76 on: December 04, 2007, 12:52:43 PM »
No i agree the   Atheist turned slightly less then deist [i would'nt call him a diest because now he beleives in a power he never sais G-D] still i think Schroeder does bring some interesting thoughts to the discussion.No scientist can prove G-D exists that is only Emunah[faith]
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
Shot at 2010-01-03

Offline q_q_

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3819
Re: My letter to Sarah. (Please make this a sticky thread for 2 weeks)
« Reply #77 on: December 04, 2007, 01:27:43 PM »
actually, according to the extremely logical rabbi I mentioned, Emunah means Trust.

Which is like Belief/faith and acting on that belief/faith.

He sees that by looking at all occurrences of the word in the torah.

He does not see it as a leap of faith.  He says there is always "an if" , what if the world was created 5 seconds ago.. What if your parents are not who they claim to be - they just picked out somebody that looked like you..  We cannot know anything beyond any theoretical doubts.  (infact, when proving somebody guilty, in america, they say do so `beyond reasonable doubt`, you could always find doubts - but are they reasonable!)  

He disagrees with arguments of intelligent design. But he thinks the evidence is that judaism is true. And that that is not a leap of faith..  But I don`t think jews are meant to go around trying to convince gentiles that judaism is true.

note- when I did jury service, the british lawyers ask the jury "are you sure".. maybe only american ones you have to be "beyond reasonable doubt".. But i think it amounts to the same thing.  Another thing to bare in mind, was we sentenced a guy for stealing.. But the law was, that he had to know he was stealing. The decider was that police testified that he was hiding away when they came, they found him in a cupboard..
In court, he denied that he was hiding in a cupboard.  That, combined with his bad attitude, made us sure he was lying, and that he knew he was stealing..     
Fact is.. it is possible that he only hid because he thought he might lose a future case, and he did not want police hassle, and he still felt he was not stealing.  Infact, the illiterate black muslim hilariously told the policeman "I know the law, I`ve had 20  years experience!!!!"

the other case I sat in, an asian muslim.. this one was the claimant.. (the victim- allegedly).  He was telling his story.. How he is a window cleaner and these guys (mostly black) kidnapped him and tried to get him to give them £10,000..  After being beaten terribly, he called his girlfriend to give them all he had.  She gave them his precious rolex watch that he says he bought from an ex girlfriend for £300.  The kidnapper realises it is fake. He throws it down and beats the guy further.    As he gives his testimony, it turns out that he knew the kidnappers.. they were not strangers at all.. He had smoked pot with them in his car in the past.. He had been caught with them, driving a car with stolen wheels.. All these things,, he had denied. So he just was not credible. The lawyer defending him said he won`t do it. Case thrown out of court.   Tax payers money spent on 4 lawyers, one for each of the criminals who the claim is against, and for the lawyer of the "victim", and on the judge and for the jury, for days.
At one point.. the lawyer for one of the criminals, the one white one, said "is it possible that my client did not kick you, he just walked from one end of the van to the other in the dark, and tripped over you?" .  He said "yes, that`s possible".  That was it!! other lawyers were pissed.

Maybe this compares to the mohammed`s satanic verses incident!  He tries to convince the pagans, so mohammed said you can worship certain pagan gods.   He was obviously poked about that, so he later said that it is wrong, and satan had got him to say that!  Then there is the abrogation, so he could justify making up the rules as he went along not being bound by what he decided was law in the past.   Then there is the 1 hour marriage.. The marrying and divorcing little children, aisha that 6 year old. The fact that he married an older rich woman then once he had amassed wealth from her, he married a child. This does reflect badly on his character and thus his claims..  Nevertheless, I think the fundemantal thing is no positive evidence.. Secondary thing is islam`s claims do not hold up.. e.g. about it being a continuation of the torah..  Then maybe, that he was an unethical pervert.

western values on what is ethical would condemn some things in the bible too, like killing amalek..

the capital punishments in the torah are prob not worse than the electric chair. Death was instant.  e.g. stoning was strapping the person up and dropping him from a height onto a rock.  So it is not as bad as islammic countries, where the crowd all join in throwing stones shouting allah akbur, and the woman is not dead for ages, and blood comes through the cloth.. and they keep throwing the stones, (I saw a video from an iranian dissident website) ..   Besides the fact that in judaism, the cpaital punishment only applies  if the sanhedrin are sitting in the court of the temple.. (we have no temple, and no recognised sanhedrin). And if  2 witnesses, and the guy has to agree to be killed(so must be quite a righteous person!)!! And he has to be warned beforehand.. and if they sentence more thna one person in like 50 or 70 years, they are considered a bloodthirsty court. So it is more of a deterrent.. Still though, even as a deterrent, capital punishment, even if instantaneous, for breaking a law of G-d does not fit into western values.









« Last Edit: December 04, 2007, 02:11:26 PM by q_q_ »

Offline christians4jews

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1030
Re: My letter to Sarah. (Please make this a sticky thread for 2 weeks)
« Reply #78 on: December 06, 2007, 04:21:49 AM »
No offence to you lot, but get to the real heart of it.....


Sarah, do you agree with this verse, allah says hes all knowing and all wise, so if you are going to be a muslim, you either must agree withthis verse in the quran and leave this forum as you are a nazi, or renounce islam....

sura 5.51. "O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust "

I think you are lying....

Offline q_q_

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3819
Re: My letter to Sarah. (Please make this a sticky thread for 2 weeks)
« Reply #79 on: December 06, 2007, 11:37:12 AM »
No offence to you lot, but get to the real heart of it.....


Sarah, do you agree with this verse, allah says hes all knowing and all wise, so if you are going to be a muslim, you either must agree withthis verse in the quran and leave this forum as you are a nazi, or renounce islam....

sura 5.51. "O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily G-d guideth not a people unjust "

I think you are lying....

I would not be so harsh..

But,

this is relevant
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=5&tid=14148

it defines people of the book as enemies of islam. And says not to take them as friends.

and it also specifies "those that commit shirk"   (i.e. christians)

for the sake of completeness ..
consider Sheikh Palazzi`s comments on that verse
http://www.amislam.com/pundit13.htm
He is a sunni muslim.. and a zionist.  I have an extremely high opinion of him. He is better than all the people in the knesset.
But that is not that relevant.  And, as Iceyyy once said, one does not understand/interpret the verses with ones own mind, but with the tafsir - which is the meaning of the quran..  And as investigateislam said, one does not do it with arabic dictionaries.  The Tafsir is the meaning..





 
« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 11:42:28 AM by q_q_ »

Offline Raulmarrio2000

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1957
Re: My letter to Sarah. (Please make this a sticky thread for 2 weeks)
« Reply #80 on: December 06, 2007, 08:44:13 PM »
We all know she doesn't think that, but islam does (or dhimitude/slavery). The point is that if she disagrees with this, she CAN'T be a muslim.

She said she doesn't agree with the killing of innocent people but I don't think I read any post saying she doesn't think non-Muslims will go to hell or it's possible for them to earn a place in Heaven. And also, Sarah, when Muhammad insults infidels calling them apes, devils dogs and pigs (hey guys type in devils dogs pigs and koran in google and JTF is the first search result  :) ) and deaf dumb and blind do you agree with this?

Sarah does not need to say it. Islam is clear that Jews, Christians, Sabbeans (and Parsis also, according to some Muslims) have a good place in Heaven and nothing to Fear on the Day of Final Judgement if they pray and give charity. The big problem is that most Muslims will forcebly convert a pagan and then, if he wants to choose another religion, he is in danger. They have also made Jews's lives miserable during their rule in Arab countries. And of course, if they can convert a Jew, they'll do it and then he is in danger if he leaves!!!! But no Muslim has ever said a non-Muslim goes to Hell. Only some Christians say it: If you are not baptized you suffer eternally. However I have heard very few, if any, Muslim who respects Israel.
Anyway, Sarah is a teen, please don't press on her. Let her grow up and decide for herself. I dislike the way she is treated here.
And it's not true that a Muslim is forbidden to befriend Jews or Christians, he is only discouraged from seeking their protection in times of need or danger. So don't storm Sarah anymore.

Offline JR-Obilic

  • Senior JTFer
  • ****
  • Posts: 283
Re: My letter to Sarah. (Please make this a sticky thread for 2 weeks)
« Reply #81 on: December 07, 2007, 12:35:29 AM »
There is no point trying to convince this girl of something if she doesn't believe in it herself.  To believe she must develop a personal relationship with god.  If she wants to be a sheep, then let her drift.

Sarah, read the 10 Commandments... That's a good start.  Then picture the world as it would be if everyone lived according to them.  If you agree with all of them, then you shouldn't be a Muslim because your current religion clearly contradicts those values both in text and in action.
All or nothing.