Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: Dexter on December 26, 2007, 06:58:26 AM ---
--- Quote ---D) The Herem of Rabbenu Gershom was never accepted in Eretz Yisrael, therefore any Jew living there can take a second, third, or even a hundredth wife with no problem according to Halakha. Public knowledge of this would radically change the culture of Galuth Judaism and is therefore suppressed.
--- End quote ---
Intresting. I thought that the Yemenite Jews were the only Jews who didn't accepted that Herem about polygamy, could you provide a source ?
--- Quote ---E) The Hebrew spoken today whether modern, Sefardic, or Ashkenazic is full of errors. The true pronunciation is well know because Rav Saadya Gaon detailed it 1100 years ago. The fact that VERY few Jews follow the correct pronuncitation and instead feel the need to be loyal to whatever mistakes were common in the country of his great-grandfather's birth is a tragedy.
--- End quote ---
The Yemenite pronunciation is the most accurate and original one.
--- End quote ---
The Entire Sefardic and Mizrahi world rejected the Herem of Rabenu Gershom and polygamy was universal in the Mizrahi world.
And true, the Yemenite pronunciation is the most accurate although it has three mistakes. There is no Jimel in Hebrew so pronouncing a Gimel as a J sound is wrong and and the Quf should be pronouced exactly as it is in Aramaic and Arabic not as a G like the Yemenites do and the Holem should be an O not an UI. Otherwise their pronunciation is flawless.
I have recently switched from my Ashkenazi pronunciation to the correct one and I suggest that all Jews do the same. In fact, the Torah requires it of them.
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on December 26, 2007, 08:47:56 PM ---
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on December 25, 2007, 10:43:02 PM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on November 29, 2007, 08:31:21 PM ---Judea, I disagree about the Sefaradim and Askenazim thing. Personally I wouldnt like their to be an assimilation between myself with other grops (even within Judaism). I respect the different Jewish cultures and groups and wouldnt want anyone dictating to me how I should practice and live life outside my tradition and cultural background. This reminds me of the fact that for a long time Askenazim contolled many of the Yeshivas and their mentality and Halahot is passed on to the Sefaradim who attend.
Before you jump on me and say that this causes disunity, etc, you should know that each tribe of Israel lived in its own border, and the land was organized and devided into families where it ended up that you live closer to people who are more related to you, and have the same culture as you.
Im Bukharian Sefaradi and proud of it, and wouldnt like that identity to disappear.
--- End quote ---
Tzvi, pretending that the country in the Galuth where your great grandfather or my grandfather used to live is the same as the Tribes of Israel does not make it so.
I'm Polish and Russian Ashkenazi and I would like both my Ashkenazi and your Sefaradi identity to disappear so that we can be one nation again. Not a bunch of confused people each continuing to define themselves and Ashkenazi and Sefaradi and opposed to our true identity. Yehudhi.
That is our only identity.
Yehudhi.
Give up the Galuth, Tzvi.
It's not good for you.
--- End quote ---
Our ashkenazi and Sefaradi traditions go way back, and include not just customs (which I have heard from rabbi bar hayyim, can drop off rain off a raincoat if moving). But they include pronounciation.
Suppose people trade in their ashkenazi and Sefaradi differences(customs and pronounciation i guess). We cannot trade them in for the original, before the split, since we do not have the original.
It would be wrong for ashkenazim and Sefaradim to trade their customs for Ashkefadi. It is no better than what they had before. It would probably be a confused inconsistent mishmash.
We should not trade our pronounciation for the "Modern hebrew" pronounciation. That is just east european secular zionists throwing away their heritage by adopting a largely Sefaradi pronounciation, but not getting the details right, because they, those socialists, wanted to get rid of judaism anyway.
A solution may be what Rabbi Bar Hayyim has done.. to adopt a pronounciation which is probably like or equal to, yemenite.. Or based on descriptions from rav saadya gaon. To research what one thinks is the most correct pronounciation. And regarding customs, he, based on jewish sources, throws them off and adopts the ones of the place he lives - israel.
Though although they go way back. If rabbi bar hayyim is developing minchag eretz yisroel, then it is very easy for him to suggest adopting it!!!
--- End quote ---
Thanks for the plug,
Listen, if we don't drop these divisive minhagim, we will never coalesce and unify as one nation. This must happen, we cannot exist in Israel for very long disunified in this manner.
And who cares how old a minhag is?
When European Jewry left Europe, their minhagim ceased to be relevant.
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
Actually I heard from Rav Zamir Cohen that the Yeminite Pronounciation is the most correct one, and specifically the Jimmel. (it was mentioned in one of his lectures, hes a big Rabbi In israel who is actually launching T.V. broadcast of lectures to Israel T.V. sets.)
q_q_:
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on January 02, 2008, 10:36:57 PM ---
Thanks for the plug,
--- End quote ---
are you rabbi bar hayyim? ;-)
--- Quote ---Listen, if we don't drop these divisive minhagim, we will never coalesce and unify as one nation. This must happen, we cannot exist in Israel for very long disunified in this manner.
And who cares how old a minhag is?
When European Jewry left Europe, their minhagim ceased to be relevant.
--- End quote ---
different minhagim are not causing the disunity that causes problems today. The problem in israel is between Jews and anti-jews.
Sephardim and Ashkenazim get on fine for the most part. Apart from some ashkenazim that sort of see sephardim as arabs!(though that is usually a joke i think) And some sephardim who think they have some kind of perfect judaism, and they are the real jews, and that jews from europe are not.
But for the most part, relations are fine, there is marriage between them. Infact, Rav Binyamin Kahane ztl hyd married a sephardi girl - Talia. One needn`t look far.. And my sephardi friend`s sister married an ashkenazi.. It is very common. The ashkenazi led the service the sephardi way, ashkenazim came to the shul, it was very nice.
"Misnagdim" often look at Chassidim as following a different religion, but we don`t have such problems from it. As long as reform are around, the orthodox stick together!
Regarding pronounciation.
Can Rabbi Bar Hayyim prove beyond doubt that his pronounciation is correct and others wrong. Or is it only a likelyhood thing?
Does he think he is pronouncing it exactly like Rav Saadya Gaon ? And how do we know that Rav Saadya Gaon`s tradition of pronounciation is better than the yemenites?
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
qq is right, bad division does not come from the Torah, but because of the secular entity. Having and maintaining different Minhagim is like having a river (the Torah) with different streams (Askenazi, Sefardi, Yeminite, etc.). Thier were allways differeces between the tribes and also every family. Judaism is not communism where everybody has the same responsibility and way of doing. For example in the Temple the Kohanim have their job's, the Leviim theirs and the Israelites (regular Jews) their own. Everything should remain the way it is as long as it is in the confines of Torah. Making these Mahloket right now would only be counter productive becuase each group (rightfully so) will say that their tradition should be followed.
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