Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State
q_q_:
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on January 02, 2008, 11:20:28 PM ---qq is right, bad division does not come from the Torah, but because of the secular entity. Having and maintaining different Minhagim is like having a river (the Torah) with different streams (Askenazi, Sefaradi, Yeminite, etc.). Thier were allways differeces between the tribes and also every family. Judaism is not communism where everybody has the same responsibility and way of doing. For example in the Temple the Kohanim have their job's, the Leviim theirs and the Israelites (regular Jews) their own. Everything should remain the way it is as long as it is in the confines of Torah. Making these Mahloket right now would only be counter productive becuase each group (rightfully so) will say that their tradition should be followed.
--- End quote ---
I am not saying that all streams of orthodoxy are equally correct, just that it`s not the main problem, and we really do not have the tradition in perfect form as it was at sinai, or even as it was in talmudic times. And if people took this idea seriously, then there would be more Rabbi David Bar Hayyims, and each would come up with his own idea of what is closest to the original.
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on January 02, 2008, 10:49:54 PM ---Actually I heard from Rav Zamir Cohen that the Yeminite Pronounciation is the most correct one, and specifically the Jimmel. (it was mentioned in one of his lectures, hes a big Rabbi In israel who is actually launching T.V. broadcast of lectures to Israel T.V. sets.)
--- End quote ---
Well, Rav Saadia Gaon says specifically that there is no J sound in Hebrew so I would trust him over Rabbi Zamir Cohen.
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on January 02, 2008, 11:03:13 PM ---
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on January 02, 2008, 10:36:57 PM ---
Thanks for the plug,
--- End quote ---
are you rabbi bar hayyim? ;-)
--- Quote ---Listen, if we don't drop these divisive minhagim, we will never coalesce and unify as one nation. This must happen, we cannot exist in Israel for very long disunified in this manner.
And who cares how old a minhag is?
When European Jewry left Europe, their minhagim ceased to be relevant.
--- End quote ---
different minhagim are not causing the disunity that causes problems today. The problem in israel is between Jews and anti-jews.
Sefaradim and Ashkenazim get on fine for the most part. Apart from some ashkenazim that sort of see Sefaradim as arabs!(though that is usually a joke i think) And some Sefaradim who think they have some kind of perfect judaism, and they are the real jews, and that jews from europe are not.
But for the most part, relations are fine, there is marriage between them. Infact, Rav Binyamin Kahane ztl hyd married a Sefaradi girl - Talia. One needn`t look far.. And my Sefaradi friend`s sister married an ashkenazi.. It is very common. The ashkenazi led the service the Sefaradi way, ashkenazim came to the shul, it was very nice.
"Misnagdim" often look at Chassidim as following a different religion, but we don`t have such problems from it. As long as reform are around, the orthodox stick together!
Regarding pronounciation.
Can Rabbi Bar Hayyim prove beyond doubt that his pronounciation is correct and others wrong. Or is it only a likelyhood thing?
Does he think he is pronouncing it exactly like Rav Saadya Gaon ? And how do we know that Rav Saadya Gaon`s tradition of pronounciation is better than the yemenites?
--- End quote ---
First of all, you are in a dream world. There is fierce hatred on both sides. I have met alot of Ashkenazim who despise Sefaradim and plenty of Sefaradim who hate Ashkenazim. They do not get along fine together. Every single city has both an ashkenazic and sephardic beth din, in direct contradiction of what the Torah states. That in and of itself is a sign of complete disunity.
And no need to put intermarriage between Ashkenazi and Sefaradi as some sort of sign of goodwill. I am married to a sefardic girl. I wouldn't have it any other way. But that is no proof of unity.
There is deep disuinity in the Jewish people as a result of the Galuth. We need to wipe the Galuth off of us and we can start off by changing minhagim that are only in existence because of the Galuth.
Ashkenazi and Sefaradi are NOT different tribes they are different place where we were exiled to because of our sins.
That is NOT SOMETHING TO CELEBRATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tzvi, that is not something that a Yehudhi should say he hopes never goes away.
Tzvi, when you say that you hope your identity as a Bukharian never goes away, that means that you hope the Galuth never goes away.
What a terrible thing to say!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And Yes, Rav Bar Hayim can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that his is correct based on Rav Saadia Gaon, Rabbi Yaakov Emden and Rashi.
Yes, sir.
Rav Saadia Gaon should be trusted because he is one of the only poseqim who goes into it in depth. and the yemenite pronunciation is almost identical to it.
OdKahaneChai:
No one can say that his pronounciation is the only legitamate one. Ashkenazi pronounciation and Sefardi pronounciation are both based on legitamate Poskim. One should follow what his fathers followed.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta link=topic=12520.msg153817#msg153817 --- And Yes, Rav Bar Hayim can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that his is correct based on Rav Saadia Gaon, Rabbi Yaakov Emden and Rashi.
Yes, sir.
Rav Saadia Gaon should be trusted because he is one of the only poseqim who goes into it in depth. and the yemenite pronunciation is almost identical to it.
--- End quote ---
for a start..
I heard that every letter is meant to be distinct.
According to Rabbi Bar Hayyim,
Regarding the BGDKFT letters (the 6 letters with hard and soft pronounciations. bet,gimel,daled,kaf,peh,taf)
What is the difference between Taf without a dot, and Daled without a dot. I heard that they are both meant to be "th" like "the" or "seth".
And if it is not Gimmel and Jimmel, then what is a gimmel without a dot pronounced like?
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