Honest question for JTF supporters and leadership

[dejavu]

I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same. That I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

If you wish to argue semantics then i guess that you would be correct but with this reasoning i have never said the pledge of allegiance to the flag and meant it.  Do you think that there should be a religious test to hold a position in the military.  Is my ability to defend the values of the people within the country somehow lessened by the fact that i do not believe in your god or for that fact any god?

In all honesty i don't believe that this part should be in the Oath however it is a tradition and for that reason i said it willingly.  The part of the oath that i believe is meaningful is the part where i swear to support and defend the constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic.  As far as i am concerned right now the biggest enemy to the constitution of the United States is the President himself through ignorant laws such as the patriot act and the military commissions act which are a direct slap in the face to the constitution.  While i was still a Marine i obeyed my orders and i kept my personal beliefs to myself however i am no longer a part of the marines much because of the fact that i do not believe that any of our elected officials have ever taken this oath seriously short of Dr. Ron Paul who is the one voice fighting for the constitution. 

[Kiwi]

If you wish to argue semantics

Once a Marine is always a Marine, you are never anything else. The Marines I served beside were great men. And to bring any military field into a bad light is totally unacceptable.

White Nationalism is not allowed within the US Marine Corps.

If you have served which I greatly believe you haven't, you would know this. You would also know that you  can't hide beliefs in the service.

[dejavu]

what do you mean by white nationalism.  I have not made one comment in this entire forum to the fact that the whites are in any way a superior race.  In fact i believe i have typed exactly the opposite.  I am proud I was a Marine however i cannot in good conscience say that i believe that the direction that we are going in this country is the correct one.  I firmly believe that the constitution is quickly becoming a forgotten document.  As far as hiding your beliefs in the service at the time i did not have to because i was in complete support of the initial push into Afghanistan which is when i was in the service.  As far as Iraq is concerned we have no place going over there.

Exactly what comments have i made on this forum that would warrant being called a white nationalist because in all honesty that is rather offensive.

[Rubystars]

As for evolution and the big bang theory i disagree that they can exist with the messages in Judeo-Christian religions because according to the current doctrine of intelligent design everything is exactly as it was intended to be and the world started when G-d decided for it to.

I believe that in most instances that God works through natural processes or through people to do His work.

The big bang theory is a slap in the face to religion because it states that the world was created in an explosion.

An explosion? That's just not true. The Big Bang has NOTHING to do with any explosion. You sound like a Carl Baugh or Hovind-ite creationist saying things like that.

According to the first day of creation the earth was already there in its current form... It mentions nothing of the creation of earth only that the earth was there and it got lit up.

And before that the earth was without form, and void. That goes along with the Hadean era quite well.

Also, could you please explain why the Bible says "let the earth bring forth?"

You are correct infact that darwin was actually a Christian when he came up with the theories of evolution but that does not change the fact that they are not accepted as part of intelligent design which is the current creationist doctrine.

I'm not a creationist or an ID advocate.

In fact "intelligent design" is not actually just a belief that the universe was designed intelligently. It's a belief that you can scientifically demonstrate divine intervention or a need for such. I don't believe that you can scientifically establish anything supernatural as the supernatural is by its nature not measurable. I'm a theistic evolutionist, NOT an intelligent design advocate. I do believe the universe was intelligently designed, but I don't think you can scientifically establish that.

I know that may be a bit confusing, but I've been a part of the EvC debate for some time now and I recognize a large distinction between the two philosophies.

Also the reason that  brought up my religious beliefs into the argument is because it is a jewish website and we are talking about Israel which is considered a holy land to their religion and therefore it is extremely relevant.  Although it is relevant i did not want it to be the focus of the argument because it takes away from the larger problem.

Even if you don't believe in the Bible, I think common sense would cause someone to lean more toward Israelis than Palescumians. I've spoken to nonreligious people who would agree with many things Chaim says regarding Israel.

[dejavu]

Also the reason that  brought up my religious beliefs into the argument is because it is a jewish website and we are talking about Israel which is considered a holy land to their religion and therefore it is extremely relevant.  Although it is relevant i did not want it to be the focus of the argument because it takes away from the larger problem.

Even if you don't believe in the Bible, I think common sense would cause someone to lean more toward Israelis than Palescumians. I've spoken to nonreligious people who would agree with many things Chaim says regarding Israel.

I'm fairly tired of the religious debate so i am only going to respond to this section of your response.  In my heart i do lean towards the Israelis over the Palestinians because i do typically believe that the Israel is typically defending themselves rather than being the aggressor.  Now the problem that I have is that despite how i feel towards either side it is not a fight for Americans to be involved in.  It is a fight between Israel and their Muslin neighbors and by getting involved we only make it worse for everyone.  We take away Israels sovereignty and ability to make its own decisions, we cause more hatred towards the US for the Muslims, and we sacrifice American taxpayer money and soldiers.

All and all we hurt Israel the most by getting involved.

[Kiwi]

what do you mean by white nationalism.  I have not made one comment in this entire forum to the fact that the whites are in any way a superior race.  In fact i believe i have typed exactly the opposite.  I am proud I was a Marine however i cannot in good conscience say that i believe that the direction that we are going in this country is the correct one.  I firmly believe that the constitution is quickly becoming a forgotten document.  As far as hiding your beliefs in the service at the time i did not have to because i was in complete support of the initial push into Afghanistan which is when i was in the service.  As far as Iraq is concerned we have no place going over there.

Exactly what comments have i made on this forum that would warrant being called a white nationalist because in all honesty that is rather offensive.

You support Ron Paul he is a white nationalist. If you support a WN then you have WN ideas. Guilt by association.

Iraq was a necessary evil, a step that we had to take, and the benefits to the people questionable at best. But the future for them was never bright anyway. Now with the reconstruction team working there the future for the country at least is better than it was. Give or take a few hundred camel spiders of course. Afghanistan we have no choice. Iran well we will see.

[Kiwi]

Oh I forgot you found me calling you a WN offensive, well I think we are even then, I find your attitude towards God offensive too. 

[dejavu]

Guilt by association... i will respectfully disagree then.

As for RP being a white nationalist, i have heard this website say things to this effect repeatedly; however, i have yet to see any actual evidence to it other than the fact that he has received a small monetary donation from a WN group.  He has received money from a lot of people, the only thing that he has not received any money from is the typical lobbyist that sully our electoral process.

I am sure if you look at every group that any other candidate has been receiving donations from you will find that there are people that you don't agree with donating money as well. 

[Kiwi]

 

Would you like to try that one again 

He fully supports StørmFrønt, VNN and Not to mention the defunked National Alliance. NA I don't think were in the business of selling Girl Guide cookies no were they 

[Dr. Dan]

Also the reason that  brought up my religious beliefs into the argument is because it is a jewish website and we are talking about Israel which is considered a holy land to their religion and therefore it is extremely relevant.  Although it is relevant i did not want it to be the focus of the argument because it takes away from the larger problem.

Even if you don't believe in the Bible, I think common sense would cause someone to lean more toward Israelis than Palescumians. I've spoken to nonreligious people who would agree with many things Chaim says regarding Israel.

I'm fairly tired of the religious debate so i am only going to respond to this section of your response.  In my heart i do lean towards the Israelis over the PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazis because i do typically believe that the Israel is typically defending themselves rather than being the aggressor.  Now the problem that I have is that despite how i feel towards either side it is not a fight for Americans to be involved in.  It is a fight between Israel and their Muslin neighbors and by getting involved we only make it worse for everyone.  We take away Israels sovereignty and ability to make its own decisions, we cause more hatred towards the US for the Muslims, and we sacrifice American taxpayer money and soldiers.

All and all we hurt Israel the most by getting involved.

Amen! You finally said something that this movement advocates!!!

[Ambiorix]

Also the reason that  brought up my religious beliefs into the argument is because it is a jewish website and we are talking about Israel which is considered a holy land to their religion and therefore it is extremely relevant.  Although it is relevant i did not want it to be the focus of the argument because it takes away from the larger problem.

Even if you don't believe in the Bible, I think common sense would cause someone to lean more toward Israelis than Palescumians. I've spoken to nonreligious people who would agree with many things Chaim says regarding Israel.

I'm fairly tired of the religious debate so i am only going to respond to this section of your response.  In my heart i do lean towards the Israelis over the PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazis because i do typically believe that the Israel is typically defending themselves rather than being the aggressor.  Now the problem that I have is that despite how i feel towards either side it is not a fight for Americans to be involved in.  It is a fight between Israel and their Muslin neighbors and by getting involved we only make it worse for everyone.  We take away Israels sovereignty and ability to make its own decisions, we cause more hatred towards the US for the Muslims, and we sacrifice American taxpayer money and soldiers.

All and all we hurt Israel the most by getting involved.

Amen! You finally said something that this movement advocates!!!

That's ± the JTF stand on Israel - USA.

[dejavu]

Would you like to try that one again 

He fully supports StørmFrønt, VNN and Not to mention the defunked National Alliance. NA I don't think were in the business of selling Girl Guide cookies no were they 

Its called evidence... show me something to this effect.

[Lisa]

Dejavu, if Ron Paul disagrees with what StørmFrønt stands for, he would have returned that money, just as any decent person would do.  And his being against lobbyists is irrelevant here.  He can talk all he wants.  Actions speak louder than words. 

[Ambiorix]

That's exactly what I think.
StørmFrønt is anti-semitic.
By accepting donations from Stormfronters, he is endorsing anti-semitism.

[JTFFan]

That's exactly what I think.
StørmFrønt is anti-semitic.
By accepting donations from Stormfronters, he is endorsing anti-semitism.

StørmFrønt/Whorefront is an anti-semetic, dreck form with people with their own racial agenda's.

[dejavu]

I would take their money too... the less money that is in their hands the more that he can use to further his campaign.  Oh wait thats right i am not a decent person either... 

I guess i will stick with my beliefs as well that his voting record > everything.

[Lisa]

I would take their money too... the less money that is in their hands the more that he can use to further his campaign.

 

That's a lame rationalization, Dejavu.  He could have easily said, I don't agree with what StørmFrønt stands for, therefore I am returning this money.  That would have shown him to be principled.  And that would have gotten him respect from others who might not have considered him to begin with.  But by accepting that money he's quietly saying he accepts what they stand for.  Why is that so hard for you to understand?

[dejavu]

I would take their money too... the less money that is in their hands the more that he can use to further his campaign.

 

That's a lame rationalization, Dejavu.  He could have easily said, I don't agree with what StørmFrønt stands for, therefore I am returning this money.  That would have shown him to be principled.  And that would have gotten him respect from others who might not have considered him to begin with.  But by accepting that money he's quietly saying he accepts what they stand for.  Why is that so hard for you to understand?

Wait wait wait...  he does accept what they stand for.  That is part of what this country was built on.  Freedom of speech.  They are allowed to say whatever they want to but just because he accepts it in no way says he supports it.  I mean i just went to the StørmFrønt website something which i doubt many of you have done to see why they support him and this is what i found.

[Lisa]

Dejavu,

Nazi is an acronym for National Socialism, and there is nothing right wing about that.  So as far as I'm concerned the people at whorefront can go on acting all right wing, but that still doesn't change a thing. They are correctly known for being rabid anti-semites and Nazis who would kill all the Jews if they could get away with it.  Anyone with with half a brain would know that just by looking at their home page.  And I repeat, any decent person would avoid them like the plague, and that means not taking money from them.

[JTFFan]

Dejavu,

Nazi is an acronym for National Socialism, and there is nothing right wing about that.  So as far as I'm concerned the people at whorefront can go on acting all right wing, but that still doesn't change a thing. They are correctly known for being rabid anti-semites and Nazis who would kill all the Jews if they could get away with it.  Anyone with with half a brain would know that just by looking at their home page.  And I repeat, any decent person would avoid them like the plague, and that means not taking money from them.

NS, Nazi, Whorefront are left-wing organizations if they were right-wing they wouldn't have their own personal Nationalist/socialist-NS agenda's, and do the righteous good or deed.

[dejavu]

I didnt call them right wing, what i said is that they do not support him because he is a white nationalist.  Also they confirm the obvious that he is not a socialist.  And yes i know that the Z in nazi is for socialist.  Did you even read what was in the picture i posted?

[Muck DeFuslims]

At one of the ugliest neo-Nazi sites on the web, Vanguard News Network, the leader of the American National Socialist Workers Party says Ron Paul Lies About Lack Of Involvement With White Nationalists.

Ron Paul Lies About Lack Of Involvement With White Nationalists

Comrades:

I have kept quiet about the Ron Paul campaign for a while, because I didn’t see any need to say anything that would cause any trouble. However, reading the latest release from his campaign spokesman, I am compelled to tell the truth about Ron Paul’s extensive involvement in white nationalism.

Both Congressman Paul and his aides regularly meet with members of the StørmFrønt set, American Renaissance, the Institute for Historic Review, and others at the Tara Thai restaurant in Arlington, Virginia, usually on Wednesdays. This is part of a dinner that was originally organized by Pat Buchanan, Sam Francis and Joe Sobran, and has since been mostly taken over by the Council of Conservative Citizens.

I have attended these dinners, seen Paul and his aides there, and been invited to his offices in Washington to discuss policy.

For his spokesman to call white racialism a “small ideology” and claim white activists are “wasting their money” trying to influence Paul is ridiculous. Paul is a white nationalist of the StørmFrønt type who has always kept his racial views and his views about world Judaism quiet because of his political position.

I don’t know that it is necessarily good for Paul to “expose” this. However, he really is someone with extensive ties to white nationalism and for him to deny that in the belief he will be more respectable by denying it is outrageous — and I hate seeing people in the press who denounce racialism merely because they think it is not fashionable.

Bill White, Commander
American National Socialist Workers Party

UPDATE at 12/19/07 5:52:00 pm:

Charges for the Tara Thai restaurant show up on page listing DISBURSEMENTS FOR RON PAUL 2008 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN COMMITTEE.


UPDATE at 12/19/07 6:50:25 pm:

More corroboration of the neo-Nazi’s claim: Extremist Group Announces Speech by Congressman.

The Robert A. Taft Club, a group headed by a man with a network of racist connections, has announced that a U.S. congressman, Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas), will address the group this Thursday at a restaurant in Arlington, Va.

[igo]

Hi Rubystars.

I hope you are doing well.

I believe that in most instances that G-d works through
natural processes or through people to do His work. 

What do you mean by natural processes?

An explosion? That's just not true. The Big Bang has
NOTHING to do with any explosion. You sound like a Carl Baugh
or Hovind-ite creationist saying things like that.

What was the Big Bang then if it wasn't an explosion? And by the
way, you may not realize it, but you are using what is called an
ad hominem argument. An ad hominem is when an individual
attacks the man, not the argument (a personal attack). When
you can't defeat the message, take a shot at the messenger.
I highly regard Kent Hovind, that man is a great defender of the
Judeo-Christian faith, and one of the top Creation Scientist's in
the world. YES, I am fully aware of his troubles and the attacks
against him by the non-believing athiest crowd. Let's stick to
the arguments and forget about other people. What was the
Big Bang if it wasn't an explosion?

And before that the earth was without form, and void.
That goes along with the Hadean era quite well.

Care to elaborate? The Bible and Hadean era are related how?

In fact "intelligent design" is not actually just a belief
that the universe was designed intelligently. It's a belief that
you can scientifically demonstrate divine intervention or a
need for such.

That's not necessarily true. The definition of ID can be best
summarized as a theory that holds that “certain features” of
living and nonliving things were designed by an “intelligent cause”
as opposed to being formed through natural causes. The ID
concept does not name the intelligent cause.

I don't believe that you can scientifically establish anything
supernatural as the supernatural is by its nature not measurable.
I'm a theistic evolutionist, NOT an intelligent design advocate. I do
believe the universe was intelligently designed, but I don't think you
can scientifically establish that.

Well, I think you can scientifically prove creation and a young earth.
Polonium Halos is one example. Irreducible Complexity is another.
But, let me say this first, either the universe was designed, or it came
about by random chance. These are the only options. I mean, seriously.
These are the only two real options. Now evolution really is one of the
most stupid ideas in the history of the world, there is absolutely no
proof of it. If there is any proof, please give me your best evidence.
Your very best example.

Even if you don't believe in the Bible, I think common sense
would cause someone to lean more toward Israelis than Palescumians.
I've spoken to nonreligious people who would agree with many things
Chaim says regarding Israel.

I would agree. Interesting, Israel ceased to be a free nation about
2500 years ago, beginning with the first attack by Nebuchadnezzar
in 586 BC. The cities of Israel were demolished and the people of Israel
were taken captive, many as slaves. The final blow was in the year 70
when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Jewish people were
scattered among the nations.

But, G-d promised them He would bring them back to their land, He
said, "I will cause them (the Jewish people) to return to the land that
I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it." Jeremiah 30:3

"I will plant them (Jewish people) upon their land, and they shall
no more be torn up out of their land, which I gave them, says the
Lord your G-d." Amos 9:15

‘For I will take you from among the nations and gather you out of
all lands, and will gather you into your own land’. Ezekiel 36:24.

References concerning the regathering of Israel are numerous!

G-d had promised that the impossible would happen.

And it happened on May 14, 1948 - when the Jews declared
independence for Israel as a united and sovereign nation for
the first time in 2500 years! The Jewish people are once again
back in their homeland – Israel.

Welcome home!!


The Bible Predicts the Future


If G-d provides a miracle for you like this, why won't you
believe Him when He says He created the world in 6 literal,
24-hour days, and rested on the 7th. The Bible's simplest
interpretation is for a young earth creation account.

[Kiwi]

That's exactly what I think.
StørmFrønt is anti-semitic.
By accepting donations from Stormfronters, he is endorsing anti-semitism.

StørmFrønt/Whorefront is an anti-semetic, dreck form with people with their own racial agenda's.

Not everyone there is like that *cough* 

[Kiwi]

Dejavu,

Nazi is an acronym for National Socialism, and there is nothing right wing about that.  So as far as I'm concerned the people at whorefront can go on acting all right wing, but that still doesn't change a thing. They are correctly known for being rabid anti-semites and Nazis who would kill all the Jews if they could get away with it.  Anyone with with half a brain would know that just by looking at their home page.  And I repeat, any decent person would avoid them like the plague, and that means not taking money from them.

NS, Nazi, Whorefront are left-wing organizations if they were right-wing they wouldn't have their own personal Nationalist/socialist-NS agenda's, and do the righteous good or deed.

WHoa SF is not left wing, oh boy it is as right wing as it gets.