Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Woman as Rabbis(or preists for the Gentiles)
takebackourtemple:
--- Quote from: jdl4ever on November 24, 2006, 01:53:12 PM --- I take offense to you calling European traditions cult like.
--- End quote ---
My goal is to save Israel and not to appease everyone. I'm sorry that you and probably millions of others are offended, but I strongly believe that we have been corrupted by our antisemitic enemies in Europe. I'm sure bad things have been done by our Arab enemies to the Sephardic even though they appear to be closer to the real Judiasm. Am I? I admit that I'm far from being a saint, but I hold strong that our experience in Europe has corrupted us and to return to real Judiasm we need to get rid of this corruption.
Chaim had mentioned on one of his shows, that Europeans are superior. I believe this is the case genetically, but spiritually all merit that we have comes from Israel. Chaim also mentioned how Europe should suffer because of all the evil that they have done to the Jews.
--- Quote from: jdl4ever on November 24, 2006, 01:53:12 PM --- My grandparents come from Europe and when they were in their towns, they practiced authetic Judaism for a thousand years until they were driven out by the nazis.
--- End quote ---
Did they move to Israel? Did they stand up to the Nazis? If they did, I'm proud of them. If they did not, I'm not. My great grandparents fall into the second category.
--- Quote from: jdl4ever on November 24, 2006, 01:53:12 PM --- There is nothing more pure to judaism than the traditions of your european ancestors since what they practiced is what Judaism is all about and was relatively unchaned for about a thousand years since they were relatively isolated in their communities.
--- End quote ---
We did not dress as 18th century polish antisemites in the temple days. The prayer Ashray does not have an entry for the letter tes. Don't tell me the religion has been unchanged. The dress and the language are two suspicians that Chaim has confirmed for me. It is too bad he is not a rabbi, because I see him as the most ideal Jew that I can think about.
--- Quote from: jdl4ever on November 24, 2006, 01:53:12 PM --- It is the reform and conservative Jews who messed things up and maybee the Chassidim had a little to do with it as well.
--- End quote ---
We agree here, but I am not against a jewish group that follows the biblical religion, but has different rabbinical laws.
--- Quote from: jdl4ever on November 24, 2006, 01:53:12 PM --- Also I think you are not educated in the oral law.
--- End quote ---
I thought I already stated that. The problem is that every time I try to study religion, the rabbis try to impose Yiddish on me and then I give keep giving me. I will take your advise and pick up a book on Mishna. I thank you for it.
For the time being, I have not yet been presented with an answer to my questions based on the written torah.
kahaneloyalist:
if they are trying to impose Yiddish on you you are going to the wrong rabbis......you need to remember that there are 70 paths within the Torah to Hashem. If you want to learn the purest Hebrew and Jews who follow the Torah without fear of the Goyim learn with the Taimanim. Or even better go to the Zilberberg Yeshiva in Yerushalayim it a kahanist yeshiva with very high learning standards
jdl4ever:
Takebackour temple, tradition is the essense of Judaism and I am shocked that because one or two things have been corrupted in the exile, you chose to reject your sacred traditon. What other nation has been in existance as long as Judaism has and retained its tradition for 3400 years? One or two things that may have changed do not make any difference. (Yes, the exiled should have been more agressive returning to Israel but you can't blame them on this since this debate started in Ezra's time by the Yeminites and was continued in the Talmud so they were just following the texts so you can't blame them. Plus, once a Jewish state is established I don't think it is required for those living abroad to return and I have some biblical sources for this although our great leader R' Kahane holds diffrently) Firstly, I do not know what you are talking about when you say that European Jews wear 18th century garb. I or my ancestors did not do that. I think you are referring to the Chassidim, so ask them this and don't accuse the Misnagdim such as myself of doing this since we do not wear Chassidik 18th century garments. YOU who do not follow the oral law are accusing US of not being true Jews? It is the other way around. First, go to your grandparents or elders and absorb your traditions and then do some studying of the Torah and you will find out what authentic Judaism is about!
Secondly, Yiddish has been the major language of Jewry for 950 years, almost as long as hebrew was spoken by the Jewish people as the main language (Hebrew was the main language after the Torah was given for 1100 years until the first exile and then Aramaic was the main language and hebrew was secondary). Therefore do not mock Yiddish, since sown into that language are the traditions of your ancestors and many ancient stories and melodies come from Yiddish.
Thirdly, Chaim is an Askenazic European Jew since his father was a polish Jew. R' Kahane was also of European Askenazic decent (Why are all the great Kahanists Askenazic Misnagdim?). This should show you what kind of people us Misnagdim are. Also if you mock the Europeans you are mocking the Sephardim since they were also in exile for the same length of time.
Also you should know that my grandparents worked their whole lives but know more Torah than the average Kollel student since nothing compares to the teaching methods of old Europe where Torah was the way of life. Also both of my grandparents speak fluent Hebrew PURELY since they learned it before Israel was founded so it is the pure hebrew unaltered by the secular state. Someone who spoke modern hebrew and lived in Israel for a short time had a conversation with my grandfather in Hebrew (who is 95 years old now but very sick) and he was SHOCKED at how pure his hebrew was and how biblical it sounded. So before you mock such giants, you should know who you are mocking. You have no clue the sacrifice that the previous generations suffered for us so you should think before making fun at such people who you would not be able to handle 10% of the tests that they went through. Would you have risked your life to raise Frum children in the soviet union, would you have kept your faith after almost being killed by fleeing the nazis and serving in the Russian army in WWII. Would you have hired a secret Rabbi to teach your son Torah in the Soviet Union under then penelty of being shipped off to Siberia and killed? I think not, you arrogent son of a gun. Why don't you speak with my grandparents and find out what true Jews are really about. BTW, my grandparents went where ever they got in to. But my grandfather's aunt WALKED to Israel from Europe in the early 1900's and their decendants are there today.
jdl4ever:
--- Quote from: kahaneloyalist on November 24, 2006, 04:31:14 PM ---if they are trying to impose Yiddish on you you are going to the wrong rabbis......you need to remember that there are 70 paths within the Torah to Hashem. If you want to learn the purest Hebrew and Jews who follow the Torah without fear of the Goyim learn with the Taimanim. Or even better go to the Zilberberg Yeshiva in Yerushalayim it a kahanist yeshiva with very high learning standards
--- End quote ---
I agree that you should stay away from most of the Galut Yeshivot since I too had bad experiences with some of them.
LeChayim:
takebackourtemple,
First of all, no need to apologize. That’s what (I presume) this forum is all about – sharing ideas, disagreements, etc.
Allow me to disagree with you once more. It is not the Oral Law that has been corrupted by the European cult philosophy. For that matter, I disagree with you that there is a European cult philosophy. Some European Jews, though not all, have corrupted Halachah by injecting their own thoughts into it, and claiming it to be Torah. But...
A) The Oral Law is not easily corrupted, because it has been solidly codified in the form of the Gemara, and various other works over the past two thousand years. Various “more-frum-than-the-Torah” Jews may claim certain things as Halachah, but we can almost always refer to the Oral Law (or a trustworthy authority) to verify.
B) Much of the corrupting (perhaps most) occurred in the post European era, when “Rabbis” started popping up on every street corner, thus creating a competition, in who’s the most religious.
C) This corrupting is not limited to Ashkenazic/European Jews.
D) The most corruption of Jewish Law was and is committed by the Reform and Conservative movements, who falsely call what they practice Judaism.
E) European Jews (while in Europe) had the greatest likelihood of keeping Judaism authentic, because they were not allowed to live among the Gentiles.
And as long as you prefer “Jew” to “Yid,” you might find it ironic that the word “Yid” is far closer to the original “Yehudi,” which was Europeanized to form “Jew.”
Do not be ashamed of the heritage of your ancestors during their stay in Europe (I don’t believe in referring to it as European heritage). Many Jews did many great things while in Europe. Need I remind you that many giants of our history lived in Europe?
I think what you’re trying to say is a lot of stuff has been made up, and disguised as Judaism, and I agree that sometimes it’s hard to tell what’s authentic, and what’s not. Here’s a tip: If the Orthodox believe in it, and the Reform don’t, chances are, it’s authentic.
On another note... What tells you that Sephardim appear to be closer to the real Judaism? I agree with Chaim that the Europeans should suffer for what they’ve done to us. But that doesn’t mean European Jews have strayed from Judaism more than Sephardic Jews.
You ask did they (jdl4ever’s European grandparents) move to Israel? Many European Jews did. Ask also how many Sephardic Jews went to Israel during the Expulsions?
Did they stand up to the Nazis? Many did. And like you, I am not proud of the fact that so many didn’t. How many Sephardim would have?
You’re right, we did not dress as 18th century Polish anti-Semites in the Temple days. We also didn’t dress like Arabs. As long as we’re on the topic, we didn’t congratulate each other with “mabrook,” and we didn’t worship the hand of Fatima.
Btw, the Ashrei prayer is from Psalm 145 – verbatim. It doesn’t have an entry for a “nun” (and the Ashkenazim didn’t add one).
Language? I lived in an Ashkenazic community where many spoke Yiddish. I disagree with it. It is a language developed and necessitated by the galut. But it is not a European language per se. On the other hand, I have also lived in a Sephardic community, where they almost exclusively speak Arabic, and they cling to that as their heritage.
My point is the galut has done a number on us all. Ashkenazic, Sephardic, Yemenite, even (perhaps especially) Israelis. Obviously, if you are a “Kahanist” (i.e., Torah believing) Jew, you must realize that. But there are many good Jews coming back to our Jewish senses. A major step is to stop identifying ourselves and each other by the venue of our exile. A Jew is a Jew is a Jew. And don’t delude yourself that one is better and the other is worse. A lot of good Jews were Sephardim. A lot of good Jews were Ashkenazim. It’s hard to tell, because you’d never hear them speaking in those terms.
Back to the female “rabbis”…
The Torah does not state explicitly, that women cannot be Rabbis. But the closest thing to a Rabbi at the time (an authority appointed to address questions on religious law) was limited strictly to men (Exodus 15:25-26).
Additionally, you must keep in mind that the personalities in the Talmud were the foremost experts on Jewish law. Whatever they said was based on their vast understanding of the Torah. And they ruled unequivocally that (a)women are not bound by positive commandments dependent on time, and (b) one who is not bound by a commandment cannot be appointed to carry it out on another’s behalf.
So, this is not a question of tradition. It is law. This is not a reference directly from the written Torah. But without the Oral Law, the Torah is indecipherable.
I believe the reason the female “rabbis” you have encountered are all irresponsible, is because the act of becoming a female “rabbi” can only be done by someone irresponsible. On the one hand she wants to be in an authoritative religious position, and yet on the other hand, she defies the religion itself by taking the position. That’s irresponsible.
Yes, the all Powerful Omnipotent G-d can give a woman this choice, if He wants to. But being an honest and perfect G-d, He doesn’t change what He wrote in the Torah. Thus, He doesn’t offer choice, even though He has the ability to do so.
Yes, people can earn a better place. Preferable doesn’t always mean better. And it must always be within the bounds of the Torah.
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