Are Gentiles allowed to live in The Land of Israel ?

[Dexter]

Numbers 32:52
Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:

[OdKahaneChai]

Two things:

1. The 7 nations were idol worshippers, and, obviously, did not follow the Sheva Mitzvot B'nei Noach - so they were not allowed to live in the land.
2. How many Caananites or Jebusites do you see today?

Any Gentile who follows the 7 Laws is allowed to live in Eretz Yisrael, but has no real "citizenship" status.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

According to Ramban- no, not in todays age, because their is no Jubilee year. According to other opinions even if yes, they have to follow the 7 laws of Noah, but their are also other rules that apply, ex- cant go to Jerusalem.

[Raulmarrio2000]

Even when Noahides are allowed to live in Israel, it only applies to exceptional cases, when they already happen to be there, a slave who escaped opression and sought assylum in Israel, etc. You cannot claim the right to Alyiah just for being a Noahide. If not, all mankind ( who are supposed to become Noahides in an ideal world) would be Israeli reesidents!!!!!!

[jdl4ever]

I read that Rambam and disagree with all of you.  As long as someone obeys the 7 laws of Noah they may live in the Land of Israel.  They are protected by the state but have no official citizen status and must pay taxes  and work for the government without pay when they request their assistance in building the Temple and public projects ("Mas").  Idol worshippers are not allowed in Israel according to Jewish Law and must be driven out of the land.

[Dominater96]

I think its a Machloket Rambam, Raavad, though not sure. They both say of course he cant live in the country, but i think Rambam says that he cant even pass over in travel. Not sure about this, gotta review.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I would actually like some reference or quote when someone says that this or that Rabbi said this or that (greatly because this happened many times before where its said that this Hacham said this or that but it turns out not to be the case, especially when people claim the Rambam saying something.- all im saying is that the argument or proof is better with something backing it up, like a quote or reference.)

[newman]

Only gentiles who are noachide chassid and make a formal pledge to obey the 7 Laws of Noah (thus becoming a Ger Toshav) can live in the Land of Israel. No practicing christian, hindu, muSSlim etc.

[kahaneloyalist]

Check out Rambam Hilchot Melachim Perek Vav

[Dexter]

Check out Rambam Hilchot Melachim Perek Vav

I read it and it say non about gentiles living in EY.

[jdl4ever]

I would actually like some reference or quote when someone says that this or that Rabbi said this or that (greatly because this happened many times before where its said that this Hacham said this or that but it turns out not to be the case, especially when people claim the Rambam saying something.- all im saying is that the argument or proof is better with something backing it up, like a quote or reference.)

You are a smart man, never accept anything that someone says without him bringing proof to what he is saying.  I'll bring you the Rambam where it from.

הלכות מלכים ומלחמות פרק ו

א  אין עושין מלחמה עם אדם בעולם, עד שקוראין לו לשלום--אחד מלחמת הרשות, ואחד מלחמת מצוה:  שנאמר "כי תקרב אל עיר, להילחם עליה--וקראת אליה, לשלום" (דברים כ,י).  אם השלימו, וקיבלו שבע מצוות שנצטוו בני נוח עליהן--אין הורגין מהן נשמה; והרי הן למס, שנאמר "יהיו לך למס--ועבדוך" (דברים כ,יא).

ב  קיבלו עליהן המס, ולא קיבלו העבדות, או שקיבלו העבדות, ולא קיבלו המס--אין שומעין להם:  עד שיקבלו שניהם.  והעבדות שיקבלו--היא שיהיו נבזים ושפלים למטה, ולא ירימו ראש בישראל, אלא יהיו כבושים תחת ידם; ולא יתמנו על ישראל, לשום דבר בעולם.

[Dominater96]

Rabbi Kahane talks about in his shiur at YU on www.kahane.org

[Dexter]

I would actually like some reference or quote when someone says that this or that Rabbi said this or that (greatly because this happened many times before where its said that this Hacham said this or that but it turns out not to be the case, especially when people claim the Rambam saying something.- all im saying is that the argument or proof is better with something backing it up, like a quote or reference.)

You are a smart man, never accept anything that someone says without him bringing proof to what he is saying.  I'll bring you the Rambam where it from.

הלכות מלכים ומלחמות פרק ו

א  אין עושין מלחמה עם אדם בעולם, עד שקוראין לו לשלום--אחד מלחמת הרשות, ואחד מלחמת מצוה:  שנאמר "כי תקרב אל עיר, להילחם עליה--וקראת אליה, לשלום" (דברים כ,י).  אם השלימו, וקיבלו שבע מצוות שנצטוו בני נוח עליהן--אין הורגין מהן נשמה; והרי הן למס, שנאמר "יהיו לך למס--ועבדוך" (דברים כ,יא).

ב  קיבלו עליהן המס, ולא קיבלו העבדות, או שקיבלו העבדות, ולא קיבלו המס--אין שומעין להם:  עד שיקבלו שניהם.  והעבדות שיקבלו--היא שיהיו נבזים ושפלים למטה, ולא ירימו ראש בישראל, אלא יהיו כבושים תחת ידם; ולא יתמנו על ישראל, לשום דבר בעולם.

That's about war with gentiles, not about gentiles that may live in EY.

[jdl4ever]

The same applies to both.  If a nation of Gentiles are allowed to live in the land of Israel if they obey the 7 Noahide Laws and meet the requirements of Avdut and Mas then certainly a few may live among us.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

The same applies to both.  If a nation of Gentiles are allowed to live in the land of Israel if they obey the 7 Noahide Laws and meet the requirements of Avdut and Mas then certainly a few may live among us.

I dont know too much Hebrew, but is he talking about a Milhemet Reshut (non-obligatory war) or Mitva?, also maybe one can say that in this situation, where non-Jews are already living their and accept the 7 laws and its allowed, but what about in the situation where they come from abroad, who says that it is allowed? (anyway im just throwing ideas and thoughts, not a Halahic Psak Din.).  I just know that The Ramban says the opposite- becuase today their is no Jubille in affect.

[Dexter]

The same applies to both.  If a nation of Gentiles are allowed to live in the land of Israel if they obey the 7 Noahide Laws and meet the requirements of Avdut and Mas then certainly a few may live among us.

So gentiles will be slaves and noachides ?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I don't think you are understanding it correctly. The word "slaves" in ancient Hebrew is more like servents and not the type of slaves that we think of today. But gentiles (as Jews) would have to be servents for the King and state. Meaning that their would be national service that people are required to serve the state. (either army, or other work, I believe since back then they weren't takin to the army, they had to do national labor and send their young ones to do national work. In a way just like some Religious women do because having Women in the army isn't allowed by judaism.

[jdl4ever]

Dexter, Avdut doesn't literally mean slavery in this context, it is used as a general term of "service" meaning that they are bound to government service when it is requested from them.  For example, if we need people to build roads some may be called up for a few days to assist the government with or without pay in return for them living there.  That's what it Avdut means in this context.  Or they may have to serve in the army or assist in building the Temple or something similar to this.

[Dexter]

I don't think you are understanding it correctly. The word "slaves" in ancient Hebrew is more like servents and not the type of slaves that we think of today. But gentiles (as Jews) would have to be servents for the King and state. Meaning that their would be national service that people are required to serve the state. (either army, or other work, I believe since back then they weren't takin to the army, they had to do national labor and send their young ones to do national work. In a way just like some Religious women do because having Women in the army isn't allowed by judaism.

Dexter, Avdut doesn't literally mean slavery in this context, it is used as a general term of "service" meaning that they are bound to government service when it is requested from them.  For example, if we need people to build roads some may be called up for a few days to assist the government with or without pay in return for them living there.  That's what it Avdut means in this context.  Or they may have to serve in the army or assist in building the Temple or something similar to this.

So the Jews weren't realy slaves in Egypt ?
It means exectly the same both in acient Hebrew and moderen Hebrew.

[kahaneloyalist]

Avdut can mean slavery or service depending on the context, when the Jews were in Egypt it was slavery, for the Goyim living in Israel its service.

Also JDL building the Beit HaMikdash was a strictly Jewish project, Goyim werent even allowed to be involved

[Dexter]

Avdut can mean slavery or service depending on the context, when the Jews were in Egypt it was slavery, for the Goyim living in Israel its service.

Also JDL building the Beit HaMikdash was a strictly Jewish project, Goyim werent even allowed to be involved

Could you provide a source for that claim ? I know Hebrew very well and the word doesn't mean slavery or service depending on the context, it means slavery only.
Rambam says clearly to make the gentiles slaves after you win tham.

[jdl4ever]

Dexter, you are not familiar with Biblical Hebrew.  Avodah is used for service frequently in the Torah.  See Bamidbar Korach 18:6-7 and Bamidbar Bahalotcha 8:24-25.

[Dexter]

Dexter, you are not familiar with Biblical Hebrew.  Avodah is used for service frequently in the Torah.  See Bamidbar Korach 18:6-7 and Bamidbar Bahalotcha 8:24-25.

I am very familiar with Biblical Hebrew, there are only few words from the acient/Biblical Hebrew that have diffrent meaning in moderen Hebrew (e.g. Goyim, Goyim means in Biblical Hebrew "Nations" and in Moderen/Chazal's one it means "non-Jews"), Avadim is not one of tham.

There is a diffrent between Avoda and Avdut, Ovdim and Avadim etc'.  Avoda means worship/work and avdut means slavery, Avadim means slaves. The words sounds samilliar but they have diffrences by meanings.

[newman]

Dexter, hebrew is a very consice language. It has less than half the words English has. A lot depends on context. Eg: Merkeva means chariot but also tank depending on context.

[Dexter]

Dexter, hebrew is a very consice language. It has less than half the words English has. A lot depends on context. Eg: Merkeva means chariot but also tank depending on context.

As I said, Slavery is not one this words.
Merkava is a name of a tank after a chariot and it doesn't mean Tank, "tanks" we just say "tankim" and Tank we say "Tank" (Ta-nk, not Te-nk).