ultra-Orthodox Jews against Isarel. What does Chaim say?

[judeanoncapta]

'Nuff said.

[judeanoncapta]

My great grandparent's Rabbi was the previous Satmur Rebbe 2 Rebbe's back and they took his advice by staying in Hungary and were killed in some concentration camp.  I don't need to read the guy's Sefarim.

Why do you have a Satmar Rav?

He doesn't.

His great-grandparents did.

[jdl4ever]

Actually the Rabbi of my Synagague for 20 years is Satmur but he doesn't admit to it if you ask him, he prefers to be left unclassified and he sends his kids to a Vishnitz Yeshiva.  I asked him about R' Kahane and the Rabbi responded by saying that if R' Kahane would have been successful in Israel, it would have been a much better place so he isn't a true Satmur.  He also speaks positively about Israel and doesn't like the fight between the two Satmur Rabbis going on and implied they are not acting like real Rabbis so he's probably a self hating Satmur. He's still a bit crazy and says some crazy things and his speeches don't make sense most of the time.   I go to the Synagague since it is the closest Askenazi one to my house.  I only follow the Rabbi on simple Halacha and learn with him but ignore the guy when he says crazy things.  When I get married in the future I'm moving and finding a better Rabbi.  Basically he's the Rabbi of the Synagague I go to but I don't follow him except for simple Halacha.

There tend to be two types of Chassidim, those that adhere to their Rabbi very strongly and reject any other sect's Rabbis and their opinions.  Then there are some who happen to belong to a certain sect but love Chassidism in general and study other Chassidic Rabbi's works as well as their own Rabbi and try to follow Chassidism in general by taking into account the different opinions of the other sects and following some beliefs that other sects follow but their sect doesn't if they like the other sect's opinion on that area and believe this achieves a greater understanding of Chassidism than following only one set of opinions.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

The last line is."The Hasmoneans overpowered the greeks and saved Israel and the Kingship was restored to Israel for over two hundred years."

That doesn't prove anything. + the Hoshmonaim were fighting to have Judasim against the greeks and the HELLINISTS who were fighting agains't the Torah.

[jdl4ever]

It proves plenty.  The Rambam is saying that having a wicked Kingdom of Israel is better than having no state and being subjugated by foreigners such as the Greek-Syrians.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

It proves plenty.  The Rambam is saying that having a wicked Kingdom of Israel is better than having no state and being subjugated by foreigners such as the Greek-Syrians.

No thats what YOU are saying, that sentence doesn't prove this. If he wanted to say what you are saying then he would have said it exactly like that.
  Where, anywhere in Torah (Written and Oral) does it say to praise the wicked? In fact the opposite, we have to Hate the wicked, allthought at the same time try to get them back on the proper path. 
(read my signature below, and what King David says- infact he says this a lot in Tehillim).

[jdl4ever]

Well, if the Rambam thought like the Satmurs, he would have said that Chanukah shouldn't be celebrated since we fought against the occupiers of Israel before the Massiah and brought a wicked kingdom to Israel in the near future. 

[judeanoncapta]

It proves plenty.  The Rambam is saying that having a wicked Kingdom of Israel is better than having no state and being subjugated by foreigners such as the Greek-Syrians.

Thank you.

For your dead on analysis.

[judeanoncapta]

It proves plenty.  The Rambam is saying that having a wicked Kingdom of Israel is better than having no state and being subjugated by foreigners such as the Greek-Syrians.

No thats what YOU are saying, that sentence doesn't prove this. If he wanted to say what you are saying then he would have said it exactly like that.
  Where, anywhere in Torah (Written and Oral) does it say to praise the wicked? In fact the opposite, we have to Hate the wicked, allthought at the same time try to get them back on the proper path. 
(read my signature below, and what King David says- infact he says this a lot in Tehillim).

No, Tzvi.

The Rambam makes it very clear what he means.

[judeanoncapta]

Well, if the Rambam thought like the Satmurs, he would have said that Chanukah shouldn't be celebrated since we fought against the occupiers of Israel before the Massiah and brought a wicked kingdom to Israel in the near future. 

Ha!!!!!!!!!!

So true.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Actually, when Hannukah happened, the kingdom was rightious, but later it became corrupt and did bad things.
 And about Rambam- you are acting like a christian missionary, who first makes an opinion and then brings some text and formulates that thinks of that texts from the first opinion. Rambam does not, I repeat does not say that having a wicked kingdom is a good thing, nor does he praise the wicked (which would be a Torah violation).

[jdl4ever]

Then he would have said "and they brought 50 years of righteous leadership of Israel" or something like that, not 200 years since that includes the wicked kingdoms.

[Dr. Dan]

great conversation!! i'M enjoying this!

[judeanoncapta]

Actually, when Hannukah happened, the kingdom was rightious, but later it became corrupt and did bad things.
 And about Rambam- you are acting like a christian missionary, who first makes an opinion and then brings some text and formulates that thinks of that texts from the first opinion. Rambam does not, I repeat does not say that having a wicked kingdom is a good thing, nor does he praise the wicked (which would be a Torah violation).

I didn't want to say this because I don't want to hurt your feelings but, tzvi, if you knew the hebrew you would see the context and see that the Rambam was saying precisely what jdl4ever and I are saying.

[judeanoncapta]

Actually, when Hannukah happened, the kingdom was rightious, but later it became corrupt and did bad things.
 And about Rambam- you are acting like a christian missionary, who first makes an opinion and then brings some text and formulates that thinks of that texts from the first opinion. Rambam does not, I repeat does not say that having a wicked kingdom is a good thing, nor does he praise the wicked (which would be a Torah violation).

The kings may have been righteous, however a kingdom made up of Cohanim cannot stand forever; it is forbidden.

That's the irony, a forbidden halakically untenable kingdom and yet the Rambam clearly praises it.

[judeanoncapta]

Then he would have said "and they brought 50 years of righteous leadership of Israel" or something like that, not 200 years since that includes the wicked kingdoms.

Right, it even includes Herod and Agrippas who were not halakhically Jewish and calls them Malkhuth Yisrael.

[judeanoncapta]

great conversation!! i'M enjoying this!

Glad to hear it.

[MassuhDGoodName]

There are indeed solid grounds for those Orthodox practitioners who believe that we are to await the Moshiach's Reign, at which time he is to redeem us and rebuild the 3rd Temple in Jerusalem.

Rabbi Kahane himself, when asked publicly to comment on these various groups of Jews who disavow Zionism, replied "I certainly can not find fault with their Torah."

The fact that the Labor Zionists won out in governing the State of Israel, and their outlook was entirely secular to the point of actually being atheistic, has added fuel to the arguments of the "rejectionists"; for the State is not actually a "Jewish" State...it is rather "A State full of Jews".

Rather than spend endless hours debating the nuances of Torah pro and con, I will simply state my personal opinion:
I prefer the State of Israel to be a modern state based on Torah and Jewish history.  In spite of its obvious shortcomings, I believe that because the Land has again returned to Jewish ownership as we had hoped and prayed for 2000 years, there no longer can be those who reject returning to it.  The reborn Land of Israel is obviously a Divine Miracle, and we have no choice but to accept it.  It should be noted that there were those in Pharoah's Egypt who opted not to follow Moses, and I'm sure they must have felt their reasons for staying behind were good ones.  It's up to us to remake the State as best we can.  Moshiach will clean up the unfinished business when he arrives.  It is not reasonable to expect a 60 year old country which has fought five wars since its rebirth to have had the luxury of normal development.  "What you sees, is what you gets".

[judeanoncapta]

Chaim, now that your'e on the forum, please tell us what you think of Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews.

[Dr. Dan]

Chaim, now that your'e on the forum, please tell us what you think of Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews.

you may want to post a new thread asking him... or change the title of this thread

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

"We have to concider them the enemy for all intents and purposes "

 Noam Federman.


Look I never said reject the land. The land is perfect and the Torah is perfect. But the state could be a vehicle or an obsticle. Sometimes its the first, but in gneral its the later, expecially now where they dont even pretend to want to settle the land (and wish to give away Jewish land). -Unfortunatly thats the only time that some Jews understand who an enemy is, when they want to give land away, but what about all the other crimes? How can anyone look away from that, just because they were zionistic at one point.

[OdKahaneChai]

He mans that soon you'll join the rest of us and not consider yourself Charedi any more  .  I used to think I was Charedi when I was a little kid in Yeshiva but shortly realized that they were wrong on almost everything and tried to uproot my traditions and brainwash me into a blind mindless follower. 

I used to think of myself as Chareidi, after all, I live in Boro Park.

But after learning the Satmar Rebbe's seforim in depth(more than any Satmar Chassid has anyway) and comparing it to the teachings of Rabbi Daweedh Bar Hayim, I don't consider myself a Hareidi at all.

There is no question that Hareidi Rabbis have no idea what G-d wants to see occur in this world.

Wow, thank you for that completely fallacious generalization.

[Dominater96]

Many of the gedolai hador of the last 50 years accepted the state, and we just have to look at them to lead us. The Satmars and the NK are a tiny minority. Hacham Ovadia Yosef, Rav Shach, Rav Mordechai Eliyahu, Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik, Rav Shlomo Goren, Rav Kook, Rabbi Kahane, etc. have accepted the state, but a couple of Talmedei Hachamim reject it so we follow? No, we look at the Gedolei Hador, and even though we may not agree with them on everything (land concessions) they still are the gedolei hador, and should be treated as so. I once heard that someone asked Rabbi Kahane who they should Psak by in Halacha. He answered them hacham Ovadia Yosef on everything besides matters relating giving away land etc.

[OdKahaneChai]

Many of the gedolai hador of the last 50 years accepted the state, and we just have to look at them to lead us. The Satmars and the NK are a tiny minority. Hacham Ovadia Yosef, Rav Shach, Rav Mordechai Eliyahu, Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik, Rav Shlomo Goren, Rav Kook, Rabbi Kahane, etc. have accepted the state, but a couple of Talmedei Hachamim reject it so we follow? No, we look at the Gedolei Hador, and even though we may not agree with them on everything (land concessions) they still are the gedolei hador, and should be treated as so. I once heard that someone asked Rabbi Kahane who they should Psak by in Halacha. He answered them hacham Ovadia Yosef on everything besides matters relating giving away land etc.

Did Rav Kahane follow follow Sephardi Halacha and Minhagim?  If I remember correctly, his father was originally from Tzfat, but I don't know if he was Sephardi...

[kahaneloyalist]

Many of the gedolai hador of the last 50 years accepted the state, and we just have to look at them to lead us. The Satmars and the NK are a tiny minority. Hacham Ovadia Yosef, Rav Shach, Rav Mordechai Eliyahu, Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik, Rav Shlomo Goren, Rav Kook, Rabbi Kahane, etc. have accepted the state, but a couple of Talmedei Hachamim reject it so we follow? No, we look at the Gedolei Hador, and even though we may not agree with them on everything (land concessions) they still are the gedolei hador, and should be treated as so. I once heard that someone asked Rabbi Kahane who they should Psak by in Halacha. He answered them hacham Ovadia Yosef on everything besides matters relating giving away land etc.

Did Rav Kahane follow follow Sefaradi Halacha and Minhagim?  If I remember correctly, his father was originally from Tzfat, but I don't know if he was Sefaradi...

Rabbi Kahane zt'l was Ashkenazi, and I think he said to follow Rav Mordechai Eliyahu, not Rav Ovadia

Actually, when Hannukah happened, the kingdom was rightious, but later it became corrupt and did bad things.
 And about Rambam- you are acting like a christian missionary, who first makes an opinion and then brings some text and formulates that thinks of that texts from the first opinion. Rambam does not, I repeat does not say that having a wicked kingdom is a good thing, nor does he praise the wicked (which would be a Torah violation).

The kings may have been righteous, however a kingdom made up of Cohanim cannot stand forever; it is forbidden.

That's the irony, a forbidden halakically untenable kingdom and yet the Rambam clearly praises it.

This is a disagreement between the Rambam and tha Ramban, the Ramban, forbids any line but that of David HaMelech from ruling, the Rambam, rules any Jew who is from 2 Jewish from birth parents may be king. Hilchot Melachim, first Perek