ultra-Orthodox Jews against Isarel. What does Chaim say?

[Khazan]

I was wondering if there are any posts or archived videos of Chaim talking about the ultra-orthodox sect of Judaism that is against the state of Israel.  I forget what they are called, but they are a branch of Haredi that argue that Israel/Jews aren't allowed to have a state.  Given that Chaim and other right-wing orthodox Jews evoke religion, these people also evoke religion to augment their claims.  Is there any grain of salt to what they have to say?  I think they're called "NETUREI KARTA," they also visited the Iranian president. 

Is it in fact in violation of the Torah for Jews to have a modern state? 

[ramen]

i dunno does anybody know.

[judeanoncapta]

I was wondering if there are any posts or archived videos of Chaim talking about the ultra-orthodox sect of Judaism that is against the state of Israel.  I forget what they are called, but they are a branch of Haredi that argue that Israel/Jews aren't allowed to have a state.  Given that Chaim and other right-wing orthodox Jews evoke religion, these people also evoke religion to augment their claims.  Is there any grain of salt to what they have to say?  I think they're called "NETUREI KARTA," they also visited the Iranian president. 

Is it in fact in violation of the Torah for Jews to have a modern state? 

No, in fact it is a commandment of the Torah to conquer and live in the land.

That is impossible without creating a state. So a state is mandated by the Torah.

The people who say differently are fools who don't understand the Torah at all.

They misinterpret one small passage in the Talmudh and beleive that thos can wipe out the entire Tanakh and the rest of what the Talmudh says on the subject.

They are fools. But they get alot of attention because they look and act so Jewish that you are shocked that they are a bunch of Muslim loving cretins.

I actually know a Neturei Karta member. He is a lunatic.

[judeanoncapta]

And actually Chaim was asked this question many times on ASK JTF over the years. It would take hours if not days to listen to enough show to find when he answered those questions.

[Khazan]

What verse in the Talmud?  I think the Naeturei Karta believe the messiah must come first before there is an Israel.  Is that the thing in the TAlmud, or is that in the TAnack?  They aren't the Lubavitch was the messiah bunch were they? 

[jdl4ever]

What verse in the Talmud?  I think the Naeturei Karta believe the messiah must come first before there is an Israel.  Is that the thing in the TAlmud, or is that in the TAnack?  They aren't the Lubavitch was the messiah bunch were they? 

That is not found in the Tanach, but only if you misinterpret one passage of the Talmud.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Theirs the 3 oaths- which actually weren't and aren't Halacha (binding as law, for the majority of poskim) , but even if it was , it was breached by the nations. In brief
- ( Ketuvot 111a ) - Im quoting from Rabbi Kahane's book Ore Harayon chapter 26 (the whole chapter is on this).
       " What are the 3 oaths? G-d made Israel swear not to go up to the Land en masse; [Rashi: "together, by force"] and not to rebel against the nations, and He made the nations swear that they would not subjugate Israel too much. "

[jdl4ever]

I like that you added that it isn't Halachah to begin with even if the nations didn't breach their oath since it is merely one opinion quoted in the Talmud and the accepted law by the ancient commentaries didn't accept this opinion for obvious reasons (it is directly against the simple reading of the Torah).

[judeanoncapta]

Theirs the 3 oaths- which actually weren't and aren't Halacha (binding as law, for the majority of poskim) , but even if it was , it was breached by the nations. In brief
- ( Ketuvot 111a ) - Im quoting from Rabbi Kahane's book Ore Harayon chapter 26 (the whole chapter is on this).
       " What are the 3 oaths? G-d made Israel swear not to go up to the Land en masse; [Rashi: "together, by force"] and not to rebel against the nations, and He made the nations swear that they would not subjugate Israel too much. "

Nice to see you are longer flirting with Hareidi ideology, Tzvi.

[judeanoncapta]

I like that you added that it isn't Halachah to begin with even if the nations didn't breach their oath since it is merely one opinion quoted in the Talmud and the accepted law by the ancient commentaries don't accept this opinion for obvious reasons.

Of course it is not Halakha.

How could a misswath Ase d'oraitha be thrown in to the Garbage on the basis of a Midrash?

[Khazan]

Was this the verse then ( Ketuvot 111a )?  If it's in the Talmud, isn't it Halacha?  Or is it just that this particular passage is being misconstrued by the Karta, therefore, this is just their opinion on a talmudic passage, and not Halacha (law)?   

[jdl4ever]

Was this the verse then ( Ketuvot 111a )?  If it's in the Talmud, isn't it Halacha?  Or is it just that this particular passage is being misconstrued by the Karta, therefore, this is just their opinion on a talmudic passage, and not Halacha (law)?   

Both are correct.  They are misinterpreting the simple meaning of the verse in the Talmud and to begin with it is not the Halacha.  Not everything found in the Talmud is the Law, and there are frequently Rabbis who have different opinions in the Talmud.  What is considered Halacha is after a long argument the Talmud proves one opinion correct and says "the Halacha is like person X".  Or the Talmud says later on a rule that the Halacha is like person X in most cases but these few cases the law is like opinion Y.  Or if the Talmud doesn't say out right what the Halacha is the ancient commentaries state what is the accepted opinion of the Talmud. 

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

The Talmud writes the different opinions so that later on someone doesn't come up with his own opinion and "proof" of why something should be done differently. They Talmud brings up that proof and shows you how its not according to what you think becuase, a, b , c and d.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Theirs the 3 oaths- which actually weren't and aren't Halacha (binding as law, for the majority of poskim) , but even if it was , it was breached by the nations. In brief
- ( Ketuvot 111a ) - Im quoting from Rabbi Kahane's book Ore Harayon chapter 26 (the whole chapter is on this).
       " What are the 3 oaths? G-d made Israel swear not to go up to the Land en masse; [Rashi: "together, by force"] and not to rebel against the nations, and He made the nations swear that they would not subjugate Israel too much. "

Nice to see you are longer flirting with Hareidi ideology, Tzvi.

What do you mean?

[jdl4ever]

He mans that soon you'll join the rest of us and not consider yourself Charedi any more  .  I used to think I was Charedi when I was a little kid in Yeshiva but shortly realized that they were wrong on almost everything and tried to uproot my traditions and brainwash me into a blind mindless follower. 

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I dont concider myself Haredi and never did. I actually first read and was more in the state of mind from Rabbi Kahane's books. But the Torah is the Torah and one has to follow it. Anyway the way they label someone in Israel (the media) is just by their looks, and not by the Knowledge and Yirat Shamayim one has.

[judeanoncapta]

He mans that soon you'll join the rest of us and not consider yourself Charedi any more  .  I used to think I was Charedi when I was a little kid in Yeshiva but shortly realized that they were wrong on almost everything and tried to uproot my traditions and brainwash me into a blind mindless follower. 

I used to think of myself as Chareidi, after all, I live in Boro Park.

But after learning the Satmar Rebbe's seforim in depth(more than any Satmar Chassid has anyway) and comparing it to the teachings of Rabbi Daweedh Bar Hayim, I don't consider myself a Hareidi at all.

There is no question that Hareidi Rabbis have no idea what G-d wants to see occur in this world.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

First of all, learning about all the crimes commited by the secular agains't the Torah and agains't the Jewish people, who can blame any Jew not wanting to do anything with the State?

[jdl4ever]

My great grandparent's Rabbi was the previous Satmur Rebbe 2 Rebbe's back and they took his advice by staying in Hungary and were killed in some concentration camp.  I don't need to read the guy's Sefarim.

[judeanoncapta]

My great grandparent's Rabbi was the previous Satmur Rebbe 2 Rebbe's back and they took his advice by staying in Hungary and were killed in some concentration camp.  I don't need to read the guy's Sefarim.

Good, because none of the Satmars do either.

Otherwise they would realize that their Rebbe was a fool.

[judeanoncapta]

First of all, learning about all the crimes commited by the secular agains't the Torah and agains't the Jewish people, who can blame any Jew not wanting to do anything with the State?

Because the second and first Jewish commonwealths had evil kings who did MUCH worse than the early zionists. And yet the Rambam praises their kingdom, tzvi.

This is because the Rambam is smart.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

First of all, learning about all the crimes commited by the secular agains't the Torah and agains't the Jewish people, who can blame any Jew not wanting to do anything with the State?

Because the second and first Jewish commonwealths had evil kings who did MUCH worse than the early zionists. And yet the Rambam praises their kingdom, tzvi.

This is because the Rambam is smart.

You would have to state a proof and text from the Rambam.

[judeanoncapta]

First of all, learning about all the crimes commited by the secular agains't the Torah and agains't the Jewish people, who can blame any Jew not wanting to do anything with the State?

Because the second and first Jewish commonwealths had evil kings who did MUCH worse than the early zionists. And yet the Rambam praises their kingdom, tzvi.

This is because the Rambam is smart.

You would have to state a proof and text from the Rambam.

הִלְכּוֹת חֲנֻכָּה פֵּרֶק ג
א  בְּבַיִת שֵׁנִי כְּשֶׁמָּלְכוּ יָוָן, גָּזְרוּ גְּזֵרוֹת עַל יִשְׂרָאֵל, וּבִטְּלוּ דָּתָם, וְלֹא הִנִּיחוּ אוֹתָם לַעְסֹק בַּתּוֹרָה וּבַמִּצְווֹת; וּפָשְׁטוּ יָדָם בְּמָמוֹנָם, וּבִבְנוֹתֵיהֶם; וְנִכְנְסוּ לַהֵיכָל, וּפָרְצוּ בּוֹ פְּרָצוֹת, וְטִמְּאוּ הַטְּהָרוֹת.  וְצַר לָהֶם לְיִשְׂרָאֵל מְאוֹד מִפְּנֵיהֶם, וּלְחָצוּם לַחַץ גָּדוֹל, עַד שֶׁרִחַם עֲלֵיהֶם אֱלֹהֵי אֲבוֹתֵינוּ, וְהוֹשִׁיעָם מִיָּדָם.  וְגָבְרוּ בְּנֵי חַשְׁמֻנַּאי הַכּוֹהֲנִים הַגְּדוֹלִים, וַהֲרָגוּם וְהוֹשִׁיעוּ יִשְׂרָאֵל מִיָּדָם; וְהִעְמִידוּ מֶלֶךְ מִן הַכּוֹהֲנִים, וְחָזְרָה מַלְכוּת לְיִשְׂרָאֵל יָתֵר עַל מָאתַיִם שָׁנָה--עַד הֶחָרְבָּן הַשֵּׁנִי.

Here it is.

Read it and weep.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Someone would have to translate.

[judeanoncapta]

The last line is."The Hasmoneans overpowered the greeks and saved Israel and the Kingship was restored to Israel for over two hundred years."

The Kingdom of Israel?!??!?!

Two hundred years?!?!?!?!

Think who he is including as Kingdom of Israel.

Alexander yannai, Antipater, Herod.

Some of the most evil kings in Israels history. Just as bad if not worse than today's leftists.

He includes them as Kingdom of Israel because he is smart enough to realize that any Jewish state is better than no Jewish state.