Does Everything Happen For A Reason?

[Dr. Dan]

So all the great Rabbis are idolators? What about Maran from the Shulhan Aruh- which is the outline for Jews to keep the laws, he was an idolator also? - What about The Holy Ari- who lived in his time and their were associated who not only believed in gilgulim- but was able (because he reached such a high spiritual level) to see people and things (rocks, animals,etc.) and tell who they were and what they need correction in. Are they all liers according to you?
 Also in the Talmud their is a hint- which says that if a person would see who he eats, he wouldn't be able to eat (or something like that, didnt have the quote exactly, but I can point out if you request, where I got that from).

Gd forbid any of them be idolators.

But please directly quote (in English that interesting quote about eating...)

http://www.torahanytime.com/rav_daniel_cohen.html
Practical Essence of Tikkun
 I sent it to you before, but its in this Shiur.

cut and paste the talmudic quote...

 Listin to the dvrai Torah and you will come across it. I dont want to right now, im listining to something else.

I don't have time to listen something an hour and half long...dont' you have the Talmud laying around at home?

I remember learning it specifically their. I dont know which page in the Talmud it is in. But that shiur is a very great shiur about this subject and other things (highly recommended), The Rav does mention many of the misunderstandings that you and JDL have in this subject, so check it out. An hour is not that much time, you have time being on this forum arguing, you can also listin to that.

you don't understand Tzvi..no offense to the guy..he's very boring...

 For how long did you listin? You dont understand, thats its a very good lesson, I know in the beginning he is talking about correcting oneself, and the satan fights hard to make Jews not to listin to it, but if you just fight that and go agains't it, then you will learn a lot and have joy by listining. - + you ask how can this or that, but if you want to start to understand then you have to learn Torah, so I request that you listin to this lecture.
 http://www.torahanytime.com/rav_daniel_cohen.html
 "Practical Essence of Tikkun"
 Also Im posting it again for other Jews to see and G-d willing (also according to their will, and wanting to do a Mitzva Gedola), learn.

I'm telling you..not my cup of tea with this type of speaker...i have zoned out time and time again...

[OdKahaneChai]

One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point 

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.

Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...

Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last.  Second of all, how is it "poetry"?  You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...

no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...

And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..

Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..

But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"?  That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject.  Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?

[jdl4ever]

OK I'm going to [censored] a lot of people here but that's what I do best.  The concept of Gilgul came from reincarnation which originated from Buddism which is clear cut idolatry and could not be further away from Judaism.  The reason why this non Judaic concept of "Gilgul" became so popular is that it provides easy answers to something that really has no simple answer and is therefore attractive to lay people especially those who don't have the patients to uncover difficult areas of the Torah, and need instant answers.  It even became popular to Rabbis for this very reason.  If anyone asks you "why does G-d punish innocent people" just tell them that in their previous life they did something bad and are being punished for it, how very easy and convenyent.  When a million Jews are killed and the Jewish people are in distress and search for answers, this convenyent answer gave them what they were seeking, a simple answer to their problems.  When the Kabalah movement came along it seemed to fit into the Kabalah framework very well since it was a new esoteric idea that they can make up a story and attribute to it being some secret that some Rabbi 1000 years ago taught but was forgotten and some angel reintroduced it.  This is probably what really happened according to jdl4ever.

[Dr. Dan]

One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point 

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.

Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...

Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last.  Second of all, how is it "poetry"?  You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...

no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...

And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..

Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..

But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"?  That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject.  Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?

Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

OK I'm going to shove off a lot of people here but that's what I do best.  The concept of Gilgul came from reincarnation which originated from Buddism which is clear cut idolatry and could not be further away from Judaism.  The reason why this non Judaic concept of "Gilgul" became so popular is that it provides easy answers to something that really has no simple answer and is therefore attractive to lay people especially those who don't have the patients to uncover difficult areas of the Torah, and need instant answers.  It even became popular to Rabbis for this very reason.  If anyone asks you "why does G-d punish innocent people" just tell them that in their previous life they did something bad and are being punished for it, how very easy and convenyent.  When a million Jews are killed and the Jewish people are in distress and search for answers, this convenyent answer gave them what they were seeking, a simple answer to their  problems.  When the Kabalah movement came along it seemed to fit into the Kabalah framework very well since it was a new esoteric idea that they can make up a story and attribute to it being some secret that some Rabbi 1000 years ago taught but was forgotten and some angel reintroduced it.  This is probably what really happened according to jdl4ever.

 "according to jdl4ever" - Both you and dan are taking from your feelings and according to you. - I dont have to write furthur.

[Dr. Dan]

OK I'm going to shove off a lot of people here but that's what I do best.  The concept of Gilgul came from reincarnation which originated from Buddism which is clear cut idolatry and could not be further away from Judaism.  The reason why this non Judaic concept of "Gilgul" became so popular is that it provides easy answers to something that really has no simple answer and is therefore attractive to lay people especially those who don't have the patients to uncover difficult areas of the Torah, and need instant answers.  It even became popular to Rabbis for this very reason.  If anyone asks you "why does G-d punish innocent people" just tell them that in their previous life they did something bad and are being punished for it, how very easy and convenyent.  When a million Jews are killed and the Jewish people are in distress and search for answers, this convenyent answer gave them what they were seeking, a simple answer to their  problems.  When the Kabalah movement came along it seemed to fit into the Kabalah framework very well since it was a new esoteric idea that they can make up a story and attribute to it being some secret that some Rabbi 1000 years ago taught but was forgotten and some angel reintroduced it.  This is probably what really happened according to jdl4ever.

 "according to jdl4ever" - Both you and dan are taking from your feelings and according to you. - I dont have to write furthur.

such a cop out..only proves further that we are right and you are wrong...and you don't have the stomach to see things from our points of view...
so sad that you are this closed minded.  Such a shame that a Jew would feel this way and live in his own darkness.
You can't idolize rabbis your whole life...

Wise men and fools have the same end....Therefore, wisdom can come from any one person, foolish or wise.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

OK I'm going to shove off a lot of people here but that's what I do best.  The concept of Gilgul came from reincarnation which originated from Buddism which is clear cut idolatry and could not be further away from Judaism.  The reason why this non Judaic concept of "Gilgul" became so popular is that it provides easy answers to something that really has no simple answer and is therefore attractive to lay people especially those who don't have the patients to uncover difficult areas of the Torah, and need instant answers.  It even became popular to Rabbis for this very reason.  If anyone asks you "why does G-d punish innocent people" just tell them that in their previous life they did something bad and are being punished for it, how very easy and convenyent.  When a million Jews are killed and the Jewish people are in distress and search for answers, this convenyent answer gave them what they were seeking, a simple answer to their  problems.  When the Kabalah movement came along it seemed to fit into the Kabalah framework very well since it was a new esoteric idea that they can make up a story and attribute to it being some secret that some Rabbi 1000 years ago taught but was forgotten and some angel reintroduced it.  This is probably what really happened according to jdl4ever.

 "according to jdl4ever" - Both you and dan are taking from your feelings and according to you. - I dont have to write furthur.

such a cop out..only proves further that we are right and you are wrong...
so sad that you are this closed minded. 

Wise men and fools have the same end....so there is nothing new under the sun.

     . I thought you would understand that I was saying that others here were bringing proof from the guidence of those who are much more knowledgeabe then us, but you were bringing your feelings and your personal interpretation, like reformists.
  - and no, wise men (the truly Wise- who learn and follow the ways of G-d/ His Torah.) and the ignorant/ Reshaim dont have the same end. Or are you saying that you dont belive in the World to Come and the fact that their will be Judgement their.

[OdKahaneChai]

One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point 

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.

Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...

Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last.  Second of all, how is it "poetry"?  You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...

no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...

And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..

Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..

But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"?  That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject.  Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?

Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.

I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?

[Dr. Dan]

OK I'm going to shove off a lot of people here but that's what I do best.  The concept of Gilgul came from reincarnation which originated from Buddism which is clear cut idolatry and could not be further away from Judaism.  The reason why this non Judaic concept of "Gilgul" became so popular is that it provides easy answers to something that really has no simple answer and is therefore attractive to lay people especially those who don't have the patients to uncover difficult areas of the Torah, and need instant answers.  It even became popular to Rabbis for this very reason.  If anyone asks you "why does G-d punish innocent people" just tell them that in their previous life they did something bad and are being punished for it, how very easy and convenyent.  When a million Jews are killed and the Jewish people are in distress and search for answers, this convenyent answer gave them what they were seeking, a simple answer to their  problems.  When the Kabalah movement came along it seemed to fit into the Kabalah framework very well since it was a new esoteric idea that they can make up a story and attribute to it being some secret that some Rabbi 1000 years ago taught but was forgotten and some angel reintroduced it.  This is probably what really happened according to jdl4ever.

 "according to jdl4ever" - Both you and dan are taking from your feelings and according to you. - I dont have to write furthur.

such a cop out..only proves further that we are right and you are wrong...
so sad that you are this closed minded. 

Wise men and fools have the same end....so there is nothing new under the sun.

     . I thought you would understand that I was saying that others here were bringing proof from the guidence of those who are much more knowledgeabe then us, but you were bringing your feelings and your personal interpretation, like reformists.
  - and no, wise men (the truly Wise- who learn and follow the ways of G-d/ His Torah.) and the ignorant/ Reshaim dont have the same end. Or are you saying that you dont belive in the World to Come and the fact that their will be Judgement their.

If judgement is to come later then why do you think you are like Gd to judge others to be like you?

And quit skirting the subject...I win this argument and you cop out of it..

and now you think that I might not make it to the world to come...

Poor soul

Don't wise men and fools return to their maker?  Don't both of our bodies decompose the same way once we are dead? we end up in the same place physically...

Wisdom can be learned from the fool...And one can be made a fool from someone wise...

[OdKahaneChai]

OK I'm going to shove off a lot of people here but that's what I do best.  The concept of Gilgul came from reincarnation which originated from Buddism which is clear cut idolatry and could not be further away from Judaism.

How can you say such a thing when the concept in even discussed in the Gemara?  Is the Talmud Buddhism?

[Dr. Dan]

One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point 

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.

Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...

Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last.  Second of all, how is it "poetry"?  You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...

no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...

And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..

Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..

But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"?  That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject.  Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?

Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.

I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?

It's poetry...

It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!

It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.

Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse."  The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.

Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).

[jdl4ever]

I am getting frustrated with this pointless argument since Tzvi is not arguing.  Having a Torah argument means arguing using logic and Torah to prove your point, then bringing a counter argument to try and disprove me.  It doesn't mean playing the "Rabbi game" that the Charedim play to cop out of arguing and that is what is going on.  Clearly apparent to anyone who ever learned a little Talmud, that we don't turn a blind eye to the minority opinion stated by even just one Rabbi against the entire Sanhedrin.  The Talmud considers the opinions of the minority seriously and attempts to prove/disprove them against the majority.  Every Torah opinion must be examined and considered with an open mind even if it is the minority and you must make a Torah decision as to which opinion you think is correct.  So spare me this silly "Rabbi game".  Just because something happens to be the majority opinion does not make it correct.  Don't we remember that 20 years ago R' Kahane Zs'l was the minority opinion that most Rabbis called nuts? 

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

1- When was I judging? If anything, if I did (im not sure), but is to tell and I can (as any other Jew who can and should do it according to the Torah- which is a positive commandment) What is the right path, and that we have to follow the Torah, or the Torah says a,b, c and d.
2-  you didn't win anything, stop fooling yourself, what did you win?
3- Did I say that specifically? You just said that, stop making judgement agains't yourself.
4- Our bodies might all decompose, but "we" are our souls. Not the body.

[Dr. Dan]

OK I'm going to shove off a lot of people here but that's what I do best.  The concept of Gilgul came from reincarnation which originated from Buddism which is clear cut idolatry and could not be further away from Judaism.  The reason why this non Judaic concept of "Gilgul" became so popular is that it provides easy answers to something that really has no simple answer and is therefore attractive to lay people especially those who don't have the patients to uncover difficult areas of the Torah, and need instant answers.  It even became popular to Rabbis for this very reason.  If anyone asks you "why does G-d punish innocent people" just tell them that in their previous life they did something bad and are being punished for it, how very easy and convenyent.  When a million Jews are killed and the Jewish people are in distress and search for answers, this convenyent answer gave them what they were seeking, a simple answer to their  problems.  When the Kabalah movement came along it seemed to fit into the Kabalah framework very well since it was a new esoteric idea that they can make up a story and attribute to it being some secret that some Rabbi 1000 years ago taught but was forgotten and some angel reintroduced it.  This is probably what really happened according to jdl4ever.

 "according to jdl4ever" - Both you and dan are taking from your feelings and according to you. - I dont have to write furthur.

such a cop out..only proves further that we are right and you are wrong...
so sad that you are this closed minded. 

Wise men and fools have the same end....so there is nothing new under the sun.

     . I thought you would understand that I was saying that others here were bringing proof from the guidence of those who are much more knowledgeabe then us, but you were bringing your feelings and your personal interpretation, like reformists.
  - and no, wise men (the truly Wise- who learn and follow the ways of G-d/ His Torah.) and the ignorant/ Reshaim dont have the same end. Or are you saying that you dont belive in the World to Come and the fact that their will be Judgement their.

I just want to add that Chaim himself would never end an argument with someone on the basis that you are trying to...so again, you are copping out..you know I'm right and you don't want to admit to it because simply i'm a periodontist and not a Gadolim.

[jdl4ever]

OK I'm going to shove off a lot of people here but that's what I do best.  The concept of Gilgul came from reincarnation which originated from Buddism which is clear cut idolatry and could not be further away from Judaism.

How can you say such a thing when the concept in even discussed in the Gemara?  Is the Talmud Buddhism?

It is NOT discussed in the Talmud.

[OdKahaneChai]

One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point 

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.

Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...

Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last.  Second of all, how is it "poetry"?  You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...

no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...

And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..

Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..

But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"?  That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject.  Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?

Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.

I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?

It's poetry...

It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!

It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.

Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse."  The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.

Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).

But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."

OK I'm going to shove off a lot of people here but that's what I do best.  The concept of Gilgul came from reincarnation which originated from Buddism which is clear cut idolatry and could not be further away from Judaism.

How can you say such a thing when the concept in even discussed in the Gemara?  Is the Talmud Buddhism?

It is NOT discussed in the Talmud.

I apologize.  It does not DIRECTLY state it.  In 105a it says (something to the effect of) that Bilam is Lavan.  This is understood as (I believe Targum Yonasan says this also) that Bilam was a Gilgul of Lavan.

[Dr. Dan]

1- When was I judging? If anything, if I did (im not sure), but is to tell and I can (as any other Jew who can and should do it according to the Torah- which is a positive commandment) What is the right path, and that we have to follow the Torah, or the Torah says a,b, c and d.
2-  you didn't win anything, stop fooling yourself, what did you win?
3- Did I say that specifically? You just said that, stop making judgement agains't yourself.
4- Our bodies might all decompose, but "we" are our souls. Not the body.

1. you have been judging even indirectly.
2. i won because you refuse to argue because i'm not a rabbi..argue with me as if i'm a normal person with opinions and with your opinoins..don't cop out...very bad.
3. look at 1
4. we have souls, but in teh world to come, don't we return to our decomposed bodies and rise?

listen, it might be written that the world to come might come about...fine...but really we don't know for sure on a worldly basis if this will happen...it's faith really..

however, what we do know is that when we die our body returns to dust..the fool dies the same way as a wise person..that's what we definitely know..that's my point.  We have the same end.

and you have yet to refute that wisdom can be acquired from a fool...and that the following the wise blindly can make one into a fool.  You make it seem that you understand what these gadolim are saying becuase you are just as high as them...perhaps you don't understand them correctly and now you look like a fool...

[Dr. Dan]

One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point 

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.

Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...

Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last.  Second of all, how is it "poetry"?  You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...

no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...

And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..

Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..

But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"?  That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject.  Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?

Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.

I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?

It's poetry...

It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!

It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.

Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse."  The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.

Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).

But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."

ummm...that's all you have?  you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point. 

Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home?  Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

OK I'm going to shove off a lot of people here but that's what I do best.  The concept of Gilgul came from reincarnation which originated from Buddism which is clear cut idolatry and could not be further away from Judaism.  The reason why this non Judaic concept of "Gilgul" became so popular is that it provides easy answers to something that really has no simple answer and is therefore attractive to lay people especially those who don't have the patients to uncover difficult areas of the Torah, and need instant answers.  It even became popular to Rabbis for this very reason.  If anyone asks you "why does G-d punish innocent people" just tell them that in their previous life they did something bad and are being punished for it, how very easy and convenyent.  When a million Jews are killed and the Jewish people are in distress and search for answers, this convenyent answer gave them what they were seeking, a simple answer to their  problems.  When the Kabalah movement came along it seemed to fit into the Kabalah framework very well since it was a new esoteric idea that they can make up a story and attribute to it being some secret that some Rabbi 1000 years ago taught but was forgotten and some angel reintroduced it.  This is probably what really happened according to jdl4ever.

 "according to jdl4ever" - Both you and dan are taking from your feelings and according to you. - I dont have to write furthur.

such a cop out..only proves further that we are right and you are wrong...
so sad that you are this closed minded. 

Wise men and fools have the same end....so there is nothing new under the sun.

     . I thought you would understand that I was saying that others here were bringing proof from the guidence of those who are much more knowledgeabe then us, but you were bringing your feelings and your personal interpretation, like reformists.
  - and no, wise men (the truly Wise- who learn and follow the ways of G-d/ His Torah.) and the ignorant/ Reshaim dont have the same end. Or are you saying that you dont belive in the World to Come and the fact that their will be Judgement their.

I just want to add that Chaim himself would never end an argument with someone on the basis that you are trying to...so again, you are copping out..you know I'm right and you don't want to admit to it because simply i'm a periodontist and not a Gadolim.

Maybe I dont understand what you mean, but im not Chaim, and yes you are only a periodontist, not someone who basis himself on arguments and proof from the Torah and our Sages, and yes the Gadolim are definitly more reliable then me and you because they learn Torah most of their time, and recieve their information from their Rebbe, where you are only making an opinion, based on nothing. + believe me im being kind in only saying this.
 - If you want an opinion then why the 1 billion Muslims aren't right, they also have an opinion, or others, they also come with an opinion. Those with True Knowledge come with Tradition and learn from tradition, and not just a baseless opinion (how much more so coming from those on very low level).

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

you know what, okay im not going to continue, if you want to believe so, you won,  , congradulations. My only hope is that you stop living in your illusion and ignorance.
 I would suggest that you start opening up the books, or listining to tapes, cd's or online. Also maybe you choose the wronge profession, you should have been a lawyer (G-d forbid, im only joking, I dont wish to curse you), good night.

[Dr. Dan]

OK I'm going to shove off a lot of people here but that's what I do best.  The concept of Gilgul came from reincarnation which originated from Buddism which is clear cut idolatry and could not be further away from Judaism.  The reason why this non Judaic concept of "Gilgul" became so popular is that it provides easy answers to something that really has no simple answer and is therefore attractive to lay people especially those who don't have the patients to uncover difficult areas of the Torah, and need instant answers.  It even became popular to Rabbis for this very reason.  If anyone asks you "why does G-d punish innocent people" just tell them that in their previous life they did something bad and are being punished for it, how very easy and convenyent.  When a million Jews are killed and the Jewish people are in distress and search for answers, this convenyent answer gave them what they were seeking, a simple answer to their  problems.  When the Kabalah movement came along it seemed to fit into the Kabalah framework very well since it was a new esoteric idea that they can make up a story and attribute to it being some secret that some Rabbi 1000 years ago taught but was forgotten and some angel reintroduced it.  This is probably what really happened according to jdl4ever.

 "according to jdl4ever" - Both you and dan are taking from your feelings and according to you. - I dont have to write furthur.

such a cop out..only proves further that we are right and you are wrong...
so sad that you are this closed minded. 

Wise men and fools have the same end....so there is nothing new under the sun.

     . I thought you would understand that I was saying that others here were bringing proof from the guidence of those who are much more knowledgeabe then us, but you were bringing your feelings and your personal interpretation, like reformists.
  - and no, wise men (the truly Wise- who learn and follow the ways of G-d/ His Torah.) and the ignorant/ Reshaim dont have the same end. Or are you saying that you dont belive in the World to Come and the fact that their will be Judgement their.

I just want to add that Chaim himself would never end an argument with someone on the basis that you are trying to...so again, you are copping out..you know I'm right and you don't want to admit to it because simply i'm a periodontist and not a Gadolim.

Maybe I dont understand what you mean, but im not Chaim, and yes you are only a periodontist, not someone who basis himself on arguments and proof from the Torah and our Sages, and yes the Gadolim are definitly more reliable then me and you because they learn Torah most of their time, and recieve their information from their Rebbe, where you are only making an opinion, based on nothing. + believe me im being kind in only saying this.
 - If you want an opinion then why the 1 billion Muslims aren't right, they also have an opinion, or others, they also come with an opinion. Those with True Knowledge come with Tradition and learn from tradition, and not just a baseless opinion (how much more so coming from those on very low level).

ok..let's go back to what we were arguing about...

things happen for a reason...you say yes, Gd is involved in everything and you add that Gadolim can judge that certain things which are natural (like weather) are related to whether or not people sin..

I say yes, Gd is involved with everything, but mortals..Gadolim or not, we must be careful on how we connect such things. We can speculate, we can learn how to be better people..but we cannot definately say that Gd did such and such because He was angry and wanted to punish everyone.  You just can't think for Gd...nor can Gadolim even though they might be wiser and better at it..it still doesn't make it right.

You accepted the reasoning based on the innocent who perish in these instances as reincarnates and you submitted this lovely prayer as evidence.

I countered that this is a metaphor

and now you want to say that I'm not a rabbi and therefore my opinion doesn't count..so now you refuse to argue with me further...
I say, that's a cop out.

And then you submit that rabbis are wiser than periodontists on the matter of Torah. I definately agree with that. However, you aren't a rabbi either nor are you wise enough to understand it to the same degree as the Gadolim...

So my answer to you is..let's talk about this as human beings and quit this "I have to talk to my rabbi and see what he says because I don't know nor don't want to think for myself.n  I need someone to tell me what to do and how to live my life rather than figure out what's right for me."

[Dr. Dan]

you know what, okay im not going to continue, if you want to believe so, you won,  , congradulations. My only hope is that you stop living in your illusion and ignorance.
 I would suggest that you start opening up the books, or listining to tapes, cd's or online. Also maybe you choose the wronge profession, you should have been a lawyer (G-d forbid, im only joking, I dont wish to curse you), good night.

Tzvi, you are but just a child...all i can say is that I definitely got to you...that's all that counts..

[OdKahaneChai]

One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point 

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.

Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...

Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last.  Second of all, how is it "poetry"?  You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...

no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...

And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..

Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..

But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"?  That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject.  Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?

Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.

I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?

It's poetry...

It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!

It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.

Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse."  The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.

Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).

But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."

ummm...that's all you have?  you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point. 

Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home?  Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...

First of all, I'm not married yet. 

Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.

[Dr. Dan]

One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point 

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.

Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...

Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last.  Second of all, how is it "poetry"?  You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...

no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...

And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..

Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..

But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"?  That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject.  Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?

Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.

I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?

It's poetry...

It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!

It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.

Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse."  The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.

Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).

But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."

ummm...that's all you have?  you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point. 

Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home?  Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...

First of all, I'm not married yet. 

Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.

my answer is in the example I gave:

I am so hungry (literal)

that i can eat a horse (allegory)

you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

"and now you want to say that I'm not a rabbi and therefore my opinion doesn't count..so now you refuse to argue with me further... "

 What I was saying to you is that what you are basing yourself on is an opinion based on your feelings and not based on the Torah. You are bringing your limited opinion, while the Torah is a different subject, this discussion isn't about politics where you can bring your own opinion and preference, this is the Torah which is Divine is is recieved and not interprteted according to ones desires and feelings. if a murderer or even a Shab-t desecrator would state something with things that is in the Torah is one thing, you are not even doing that, but only stating your feelings and everything said to you is only bouncing of you and not going into your head.