Does Everything Happen For A Reason?

[Dr. Dan]

"and now you want to say that I'm not a rabbi and therefore my opinion doesn't count..so now you refuse to argue with me further... "

 What I was saying to you is that what you are basing yourself on is an opinion based on your feelings and not based on the Torah. You are bringing your limited opinion, while the Torah is a different subject, this discussion isn't about politics where you can bring your own opinion and preference, this is the Torah which is Divine is is recieved and not interprteted according to ones desires and feelings. if a murderer or even a Shab-t desecrator would state something with things that is in the Torah is one thing, you are not even doing that, but only stating your feelings and everything said to you is only bouncing of you and not going into your head.

Once again, you refuse to argue my point...instead you send your rabbi in to argue with me...No Tzvi, I want to argue with you...not your rabbi.

heheh 3000 posts...

[OdKahaneChai]

One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point 

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.

Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...

Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last.  Second of all, how is it "poetry"?  You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...

no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...

And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..

Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..

But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"?  That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject.  Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?

Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.

I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?

It's poetry...

It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!

It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.

Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse."  The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.

Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).

But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."

ummm...that's all you have?  you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point. 

Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home?  Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...

First of all, I'm not married yet. 

Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.

my answer is in the example I gave:

I am so hungry (literal)

that i can eat a horse (allegory)

you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.

No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse."  There is no reason for the "switch."

[Dr. Dan]

One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point 

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.

Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...

Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last.  Second of all, how is it "poetry"?  You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...

no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...

And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..

Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..

But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"?  That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject.  Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?

Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.

I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?

It's poetry...

It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!

It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.

Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse."  The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.

Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).

But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."

ummm...that's all you have?  you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point. 

Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home?  Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...

First of all, I'm not married yet. 

Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.

my answer is in the example I gave:

I am so hungry (literal)

that i can eat a horse (allegory)

you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.

No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse."  There is no reason for the "switch."

There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!

You just proved my point with that...

[Dexter]

Everything happens becuase of G-d. G-d has to approve everything, even something tiny, how much more soo when someone dies. BUT maybe you can counter argue and say that G-d took away his chein currently, so what happens (the bad expecially) is because G-d's grace isn't currently upon us (to a large extent, like its supposed to be and will be in the near Future when we merit it).

So people don't have free will and what I am saying right now is because of God ?

[Dr. Dan]

Everything happens becuase of G-d. G-d has to approve everything, even something tiny, how much more soo when someone dies. BUT maybe you can counter argue and say that G-d took away his chein currently, so what happens (the bad expecially) is because G-d's grace isn't currently upon us (to a large extent, like its supposed to be and will be in the near Future when we merit it).

So people don't have free will and what I am saying right now is because of G-d ?

We have free will...just sometimes we try so hard to get things to work and it doesn't work..that's where Gd might be intervening.


Anyway, why is this thread here?  it should be put back in the general discussion section

[Dr. Dan]

Thank you Ari for moving it back here. I think eventually if it gets really religious you can put it back on the Torah section. I'm trying to get Tzvi to not have his rabbis argue with me..I want Tzvi, himself, to argue with me.  It builds character..

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Thank you Ari for moving it back here. I think eventually if it gets really religious you can put it back on the Torah section. I'm trying to get Tzvi to not have his rabbis argue with me..I want Tzvi, himself, to argue with me.  It builds character..

Im going to stop arguing with you (Bli Neder) becuase you refuse to listin. You are acting like a lawyer and a missionary where you defend your position just because you choose it originally without being open. Anything said to you, you just continue to interpret it according to your needs. Good luck in understanding the truth, because with your attitude you will never learn.

[Dr. Dan]

Thank you Ari for moving it back here. I think eventually if it gets really religious you can put it back on the Torah section. I'm trying to get Tzvi to not have his rabbis argue with me..I want Tzvi, himself, to argue with me.  It builds character..

Im going to stop arguing with you (Bli Neder) becuase you refuse to listin. You are acting like a lawyer and a missionary where you defend your position just because you choose it originally without being open. Anything said to you, you just continue to interpret it according to your needs. Good luck in understanding the truth, because with your attitude you will never learn.

Cop out...that's all I have to say..you have refuted everything you have said and YOU are the one who refuses to listen...

btw...listen is spelled "listen" and not listin...learn how to spell.


and you call ME the missionary...LOLOLOL...just like an Arab..everything you claim me to be, you actual are...

[Hail Columbia]

Thank you Ari for moving it back here. I think eventually if it gets really religious you can put it back on the Torah section. I'm trying to get Tzvi to not have his rabbis argue with me..I want Tzvi, himself, to argue with me.  It builds character..

No, I moved it back here.

[Dr. Dan]

Thank you Ari for moving it back here. I think eventually if it gets really religious you can put it back on the Torah section. I'm trying to get Tzvi to not have his rabbis argue with me..I want Tzvi, himself, to argue with me.  It builds character..

No, I moved it back here.

don't think it will matter for long. Tzvi chickened out...Apparantly he thinks I'm a missionary for I don't know which religion...oddly enough he tries to send out all of the links and videos of his own style of theology...I just want him to learn to think for himself to be a better person for the future...but I guess my logic is too much for him...closemindedness is a bad thing.

I tend to notice this with a lot of Bukharians...

[Dr. Dan]

Fascinating..i hear crickets...

[Sarah]

Not any more, I squished them.

I became confused after a couple of posts, what is the difference between what you and Tzvi ben roshel are saying?

[OdKahaneChai]

One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point 

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.

Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...

Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last.  Second of all, how is it "poetry"?  You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...

no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...

And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..

Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..

But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"?  That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject.  Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?

Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.

I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?

It's poetry...

It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!

It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.

Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse."  The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.

Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).

But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."

ummm...that's all you have?  you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point. 

Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home?  Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...

First of all, I'm not married yet. 

Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.

my answer is in the example I gave:

I am so hungry (literal)

that i can eat a horse (allegory)

you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.

No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse."  There is no reason for the "switch."

There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!

You just proved my point with that...

My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively?  It's not something the Rabbis would do.

[Dr. Dan]

Not any more, I squished them.

I became confused after a couple of posts, what is the difference between what you and Tzvi ben roshel are saying?

really not much

if you look at a couple posts before, you'll see me summarizing what my argument is...we got off on a tangent about reincarnation and he refuses to argue with me because I use my personal logic and experience and not a rabbi's personal logic and experience.

I dont' want to argue with any rabbi..I want to argue with Tzvi and I want him to think for himself...You can't just live on someone else's advice your whole life!

[Dr. Dan]

One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point 

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.

Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...

Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last.  Second of all, how is it "poetry"?  You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...

no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...

And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..

Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..

But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"?  That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject.  Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?

Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.

I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?

It's poetry...

It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!

It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.

Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse."  The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.

Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).

But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."

ummm...that's all you have?  you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point. 

Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home?  Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...

First of all, I'm not married yet. 

Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.

my answer is in the example I gave:

I am so hungry (literal)

that i can eat a horse (allegory)

you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.

No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse."  There is no reason for the "switch."

There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!

You just proved my point with that...

My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively?  It's not something the Rabbis would do.

now you are speculating whether or not the rabbis would do this just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism...

I don't buy it.

it's allegory..not literal...

and if it were literal, how can anyone assume that innocent children who die are reincarnations of something else in the past?

It's too much of a floater...Reincarnation is as real as a blizzard in the jungles of Africa in the middle of the equator as a volcano in the middle of Manhattan..Ha! I even think a volcano in the middle of Manhattan is more real than reincarnation!

[Sarah]

Wouldn't reincarnation be a bit of an odd idea in following ressurection..........when people are promised a good eternal life, they come back to the same planet?

What about the Day of Judgement? Isn't that a Jewish belief, shouldn't the world and all humans end on that day?

I don't believe in it.

[OdKahaneChai]

One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point 

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.

Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...

Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last.  Second of all, how is it "poetry"?  You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...

no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...

And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..

Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..

But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"?  That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject.  Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?

Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.

I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?

It's poetry...

It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!

It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.

Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse."  The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.

Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).

But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."

ummm...that's all you have?  you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point. 

Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home?  Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...

First of all, I'm not married yet. 

Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.

my answer is in the example I gave:

I am so hungry (literal)

that i can eat a horse (allegory)

you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.

No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse."  There is no reason for the "switch."

There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!

You just proved my point with that...

My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively?  It's not something the Rabbis would do.

now you are speculating whether or not the rabbis would do this just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism...

I don't buy it.

it's allegory..not literal...

and if it were literal, how can anyone assume that innocent children who die are reincarnations of something else in the past?

It's too much of a floater...Reincarnation is as real as a blizzard in the jungles of Africa in the middle of the equator as a volcano in the middle of Manhattan..Ha! I even think a volcano in the middle of Manhattan is more real than reincarnation!

You're basically saying to thousands of Rabbis from the past 2,000 years, "You're silly - you're wrong."  Whether you agree with it or not, you at least have to admit that there's something behind it...

And no, the Rabbis did not put that in there "just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism."  They are saying it just like any other fact.  It is an entirely literal passage.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Something along this subject, and was mentioned much earlier. (I was told earlier, and I do listin to Rabbis who do mention many things, many times intertwined within the lessons (bringing together the different levels and learning from Torah) but this is something I just came across.

"The ban against studying Kabbalah was lifted by the efforts of the sixteenth century Kabbalist Rabbi Avraham Azulai (1570-1643).

I have found it written that all that has been decreed Above forbidding open involvement in the Wisdom of Truth [Kabbalah] was [only meant for] the limited time period until the year 5,250 (1490 C.E). From then on after is called the "Last Generation", and what was forbidden is [now] allowed. And permission is granted to occupy ourselves in the [study of] Zohar. And from the year 5,300 (1540 C.E.) it is most desirable that the masses both those great and small [in Torah], should occupy themselves [in the study of Kabbalah], as it says in the Raya M'hemna [a section of the Zohar]. And because in this merit King Mashiach will come in the future – and not in any other merit – it is not proper to be discouraged [from the study of Kabbalah]. (Rabbi Avraham Azulai)"

[Dr. Dan]

One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point 

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.

Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...

Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last.  Second of all, how is it "poetry"?  You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...

no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...

And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..

Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..

But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"?  That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject.  Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?

Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.

I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?

It's poetry...

It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!

It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.

Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse."  The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.

Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).

But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."

ummm...that's all you have?  you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point. 

Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home?  Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...

First of all, I'm not married yet. 

Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.

my answer is in the example I gave:

I am so hungry (literal)

that i can eat a horse (allegory)

you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.

No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse."  There is no reason for the "switch."

There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!

You just proved my point with that...

My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively?  It's not something the Rabbis would do.

now you are speculating whether or not the rabbis would do this just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism...

I don't buy it.

it's allegory..not literal...

and if it were literal, how can anyone assume that innocent children who die are reincarnations of something else in the past?

It's too much of a floater...Reincarnation is as real as a blizzard in the jungles of Africa in the middle of the equator as a volcano in the middle of Manhattan..Ha! I even think a volcano in the middle of Manhattan is more real than reincarnation!

You're basically saying to thousands of Rabbis from the past 2,000 years, "You're silly - you're wrong."  Whether you agree with it or not, you at least have to admit that there's something behind it...

And no, the Rabbis did not put that in there "just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism."  They are saying it just like any other fact.  It is an entirely literal passage.

I disagree with you...but that's how we will have to leave it...To me, it's allegory...to you it's literal..whatever makes you happy...

But I do know that some rabbis write and say things deliberately..even if it is allegory.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point 

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.

Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...

Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last.  Second of all, how is it "poetry"?  You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...

no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...

And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..

Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..

But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"?  That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject.  Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?

Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.

I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?

It's poetry...

It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!

It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.

Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse."  The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.

Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).

But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."

ummm...that's all you have?  you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point. 

Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home?  Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...

First of all, I'm not married yet. 

Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.

my answer is in the example I gave:

I am so hungry (literal)

that i can eat a horse (allegory)

you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.

No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse."  There is no reason for the "switch."

There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!

You just proved my point with that...

My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively?  It's not something the Rabbis would do.

now you are speculating whether or not the rabbis would do this just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism...

I don't buy it.

it's allegory..not literal...

and if it were literal, how can anyone assume that innocent children who die are reincarnations of something else in the past?

It's too much of a floater...Reincarnation is as real as a blizzard in the jungles of Africa in the middle of the equator as a volcano in the middle of Manhattan..Ha! I even think a volcano in the middle of Manhattan is more real than reincarnation!

You're basically saying to thousands of Rabbis from the past 2,000 years, "You're silly - you're wrong."  Whether you agree with it or not, you at least have to admit that there's something behind it...

And no, the Rabbis did not put that in there "just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism."  They are saying it just like any other fact.  It is an entirely literal passage.

I disagree with you...but that's how we will have to leave it...To me, it's allegory...to you it's literal..whatever makes you happy...

But I do know that some rabbis write and say things deliberately..even if it is allegory.

Thats why you need the guidence of a Rav (in person, video leactures or books). If not then you can consider anything you like as being allegorical or a metaphor, etc. everytime you disagree with you, or dont understand why it is true. According to this thinking "do not murder" can mean anything you want to belive it to mean.

[Dr. Dan]

One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point 

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.

Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...

Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last.  Second of all, how is it "poetry"?  You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...

no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...

And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..

Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..

But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"?  That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject.  Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?

Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.

I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?

It's poetry...

It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!

It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.

Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse."  The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.

Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).

But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."

ummm...that's all you have?  you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point. 

Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home?  Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...

First of all, I'm not married yet. 

Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.

my answer is in the example I gave:

I am so hungry (literal)

that i can eat a horse (allegory)

you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.

No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse."  There is no reason for the "switch."

There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!

You just proved my point with that...

My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively?  It's not something the Rabbis would do.

now you are speculating whether or not the rabbis would do this just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism...

I don't buy it.

it's allegory..not literal...

and if it were literal, how can anyone assume that innocent children who die are reincarnations of something else in the past?

It's too much of a floater...Reincarnation is as real as a blizzard in the jungles of Africa in the middle of the equator as a volcano in the middle of Manhattan..Ha! I even think a volcano in the middle of Manhattan is more real than reincarnation!

You're basically saying to thousands of Rabbis from the past 2,000 years, "You're silly - you're wrong."  Whether you agree with it or not, you at least have to admit that there's something behind it...

And no, the Rabbis did not put that in there "just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism."  They are saying it just like any other fact.  It is an entirely literal passage.

I disagree with you...but that's how we will have to leave it...To me, it's allegory...to you it's literal..whatever makes you happy...

But I do know that some rabbis write and say things deliberately..even if it is allegory.

Thats why you need the guidence of a Rav (in person, video leactures or books). If not then you can consider anything you like as being allegorical or a metaphor, etc. everytime you disagree with you, or dont understand why it is true. According to this thinking "do not murder" can mean anything you want to belive it to mean.

Tzvi, we aren't talking about murder...which is black and white..

we are talking about reincarnation which is not a Jewish concept of fact especially according to many many many learned rabbis...

Like i said to Odekahanechai...If you want to believe in reincarnation fine...i dont' believe in it and don't put me down because i dont' believe in it...TO me the belief of reincarnation is a form of idolatry...I dont' want to be anywhere near that since Gd might punish me on the day of Judgement...But if you feel safe with it, fine with me...

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

One of the places in the Siddur where what we read before we go to sleep. "Kirat Shema Al Hamita" the second paragraph.
 The problem that some of you have here is that you dont follow the advice and guidence of Rabbanim. - So everything you say is your opinion and not coming from a legitimit source (the  Torah, and the sages).

Ok let's have some fun here..this is great stuff:

the second paragraph is as follows...translated from the Orot Sefardic Weekday Siddur (yes I happen to have one of these )

Master of the universe!  I hereby forgive and pardon anyone who has angered or incensed me, or has sinned against me, whether against my body, my property, my honor, or anything else that is mine, whether unwillingly or willingly whether unknowingly or knowingly, whether with speech or with action, whether in this incarnation or any other incarnation; I hereby forgive and pardon any Israelite, and let no person be punished on my account.  May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, and G-d of my forefathers, that I not sin again; and any sins that I have already committed before You, erase in Your bountiful compassion, but not by means of suffering or serious illness. May they find favor the utterances of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart before you,  Hashem, my Rock and and my Redeemer (Ad--ai tzooree vigohalee).

Ok, what's this prayer, first off about?  It's about unconditional forgiveness so that we not sleep all stressed out about what someone might have done to us.  The incarnation part does not prove that it exists or not...It's an emphasis that no matter what, even if Heaven and earth were to collide tonight, I will forget about the wrongs that were done to me...

To  your second point about not following the advice of my rabbanim..I do listen and heed my rabbanim.. Fact is some rabbanim contradict each other... Doesn't mean one or the other is wrong.  However, I have a right to question my rabbanim and other rabbanim to understand the way they are thinking rather than just say whatever they say and that I simply understand to mean goes...perhaps we aren't understanding what they mean sometimes. Maybe the way some of them are expressing themselves is a little inaccurate...language barrier...maybe they think faster than they speak...so my point is, for some people, whatever the rabbanim say goes..for others, they question...There is nothing wrong with questioning.

 You asked about reincarnation being mentioned in the Siddur, and you yourself proved the point 

Tzvi, did you even bother reading my commentary on it?  read my commentary...just because it is written as a beautiful poem doesn't mean it exists.

Why would it be mentioned if it doesn't exist?

it's mentioned to make an emphasis in this lovely poem on how we should forgive and forget before we go to sleepy...where it's even placed in this poem as one of the last things just comes to show the emphasis of how we should be at peace before bedtime..This by no means that literally reincarnation really exists..You can't take certain things literally sometimes...especially poetry...

Ok, first of all, it's the very first thing in Kiryas Shema, not the last.  Second of all, how is it "poetry"?  You state, quite simply and quite literally, that you forgive every Jew for anything he did to you, physically or through speech... in this incarnation or another... etc...

no no no and no...IT's not the very first thing..the first thing is forgive anyone who has angered me..It's' the last thing mentioned before one begins to ask for forgiveness...

And no, not literally...the first parts are literal...when one mentions something impossible like reincarnation, it's an emphasis of for example, as i had written, that even if one were to konw that heaven and earth were to collide the next day, that you should forgive that person and not curse them or hold a grudge..

Got it?! That's what this passage means...No way no how reincarnation..

But who are you to say that Reincarnation is "impossible"?  That is not grounds to dissmiss the subject.  Why would the text, all of a sudden, switch from its literal meaning to allegory?

Who's to say that (pardon me) that my penis will not fall off and turn into a vagina? Anything can happen... Come on, spare me this silly argument...You are dismissing my rationale that "Oh, who's to say?" Well, by your argument, anything can happen...even Jesus being reincarnated and being the messiah..yes..and Gd becoming a human..sure He's all powerful he can take form of a human...so spare me with this silly argument of yours.

I think you know what I meant - who are you, even when very many, if not the majority, of Rabbis today believe in the concept, to dissmiss it as, "Oh - that's impossible"?

It's poetry...

It's like me saying...I promise that I will keep my teeth so clean that you can eat a ham sandwich off of it!

It's not meant to be literal simply that ham sandwiches are not kosher, but that the sandwich is much larger than teeth.

Or, it's like saying, "I'm so hungry I can eat a horse."  The emphasis on horse is describing, not in a literal translation that you would actually eat a horse (also not kosher), but that you are so hungry that this metaphor of eating this horse even though not kosher is showing how hungry you are.

Thus, by stating that you woudl even forgive the reincarnated person is a metaphor that by no means whwatsoever will you hold a grudge against anyone..just like being so hungry you would eat a horse (once again not kosher).

But it doesn't say, "even in another incarnation," it says, "in this incarnation or another incarnation."

ummm...that's all you have?  you proved nothing with that...and furthermore you missed my whole point. 

Odkahanechai, I'm so hungry, I can eat a horse... My friend, are you now going to actually feed me a horse in your kosher home?  Hopefully not...you might serve me some rice and kosher chicken cooked by your lovely wife...

First of all, I'm not married yet. 

Second of all, you still haven't answered why the text would all of a sudden switch from literal to allegory.

my answer is in the example I gave:

I am so hungry (literal)

that i can eat a horse (allegory)

you're allowed to do that in the HEbrew and English language...It is not written that though shalt not include allegory with literal in poetry.

No, it would be like saying, "I'm so hungry, I could eat a hamburger, french fries, and a horse."  There is no reason for the "switch."

There is a reason for that switch..actually it sounds better than my original argument of just eating a horse..thanks!

You just proved my point with that...

My point is, do you realize how silly it sounds to begin a sentence literally and then end it figuratively?  It's not something the Rabbis would do.

now you are speculating whether or not the rabbis would do this just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism...

I don't buy it.

it's allegory..not literal...

and if it were literal, how can anyone assume that innocent children who die are reincarnations of something else in the past?

It's too much of a floater...Reincarnation is as real as a blizzard in the jungles of Africa in the middle of the equator as a volcano in the middle of Manhattan..Ha! I even think a volcano in the middle of Manhattan is more real than reincarnation!

You're basically saying to thousands of Rabbis from the past 2,000 years, "You're silly - you're wrong."  Whether you agree with it or not, you at least have to admit that there's something behind it...

And no, the Rabbis did not put that in there "just to prove the reincarnation is part of Judaism."  They are saying it just like any other fact.  It is an entirely literal passage.

I disagree with you...but that's how we will have to leave it...To me, it's allegory...to you it's literal..whatever makes you happy...

But I do know that some rabbis write and say things deliberately..even if it is allegory.

Thats why you need the guidence of a Rav (in person, video leactures or books). If not then you can consider anything you like as being allegorical or a metaphor, etc. everytime you disagree with you, or dont understand why it is true. According to this thinking "do not murder" can mean anything you want to belive it to mean.

we are talking about reincarnation which is not a Jewish concept of fact especially according to many many many learned rabbis...

Not true, show me the many? - All the Sefardim automatically are not included. All the Hassidim not included. The Lithuanians not included (they might not teach a lot of Kabbalah but they do mention it once in a while and if you ask they do say that this is a valid teaching, something that is written extensivly in one of the Gates of the Holy Ari, written by Rav Chaim Vital).  So besides that who is left? -reform and secular? (and maybe a few independent modern orthodox, who just weren't introduced to those topics).

[jdl4ever]

Nope, there are Orthodox Jews such as myself who don't accept the Zohar since it was a forgery to begin with and it contains polytheism.   The Yeminites are the largest group that doesn't accept it.  Tzvi, it is you who needs to be enlightened and start looking into what R' Kahane said about not being a blind follower but actually thinking about the Torah on your own.
   

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Nope, there are Orthodox Jews such as myself who don't accept the Zohar since it was a forgery to begin with and it contains polytheism.   The Yeminites are the largest group that doesn't accept it.  Tzvi, it is you who needs to be enlightened and start looking into what R' Kahane said about not being a blind follower who  but actually thinking about the Torah on your own.
   

No offense but who are you? You are not a Rav, and dont have a Rav. What you said is untrue, their was a Yeminite leader who said he doesn't accept (dont forget that they were disconnected from the rest of World Jewry), but most Yeminites do accept it. Also dont forget that the biggest Yeminite Rav is Rav Amnon Yitzhak, who does mention lessons from the Zohar, and also reincarnation (I rememer reading an essay where he describes what happened to Rav Akiva before he was Rabbi Akiva, etc).  And if you want to mention Rav Kahane, at least his son mentions lessons taken from the Zohar and other Holy Books. 
 the reformers also preach "enlightment" aka the Haskalah movement, and we see what a disaster they have created.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Correction- Rav Kahane also mentions some thing from the Zohar,

 Check- Or' Hara'ayon (in English) pages- 906, 516, 900, 144 and 319