Intermarriage Banning Poll + Lecture

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I think this was sort of a unique situation. I could be wrong and may not have the story correct...

But didn't an enemy (was it Baalam?) send a gaggle of Midianite hookers to get dolled up and tempt the men of Israel?

I think maybe this case would be different from one where a Jew and non-Jew met regularly.

The specific set up of the Midianite women in the Pinchas story was from the beginning a plot to kill Jews.

 Yes you are right, but still its something that is allways Disgusting in G-d's eyes, even one encounter. And the Halacha Technically is that if someone is having sex with a non-Jewish women, at the exact time (not before or later), one can barge in and kill both of them, BUT the person who can do this is only someone who is like Pinhas who is Zealous for G-d, someone who is completly connected to G-d and is Zealous for G-d, and just like G-d is disgusted by this so is he (no one here is on that level, BUT we can see what G-d thinks about this act).

[Dr. Dan]

I think this was sort of a unique situation. I could be wrong and may not have the story correct...

But didn't an enemy (was it Baalam?) send a gaggle of Midianite hookers to get dolled up and tempt the men of Israel?

I think maybe this case would be different from one where a Jew and non-Jew met regularly.

The specific set up of the Midianite women in the Pinchas story was from the beginning a plot to kill Jews.

 Yes you are right, but still its something that is allways Disgusting in G-d's eyes, even one encounter. And the Halacha Technically is that if someone is having sex with a non-Jewish women, at the exact time (not before or later), one can barge in and kill both of them, BUT the person who can do this is only someone who is like Pinhas who is Zealous for G-d, someone who is completly connected to G-d and is Zealous for G-d, and just like G-d is disgusted by this so is he (no one here is on that level, BUT we can see what G-d thinks about this act).

yah..that's not going to happen anytime soon in our lifetime....thank goodness...

[Maccabi]

Ok.

Let's say we're living in the land of Israel.

We've annihilated many nations in GoguMagog, we've recaptured the borders of Biblical Israel, burned out the idols from the land and reinstated the Sanhedrin.

In this case I think there would be much less incentive for Jews to intermarry.

Then I think you could possibly ban intermarriage and institute harsh penalties in the land of Israel, only because non-Jewish men and women traveling there would have to abide by Jewish law.

But this isn't exactly the case - We've been nationally defiled (well maybe not defiled, but certainly not in top form) for thousands of years - of course some Jews are tired of this and want to intermarry.  Even Torah arguments say Hashem didn't mean for the exile to be this bad.

It's not like the Sea just split, we're on the other side thanking Hashem for great miracles, and some guy runs off with a non-Jewish woman. 

It's more like we've been through a lot, more than some people can bear psychologically, and they want something a little less heavy, something fun and bright and happy.

So I think we have to have some compassion for the Jewish men who have intermarried. Especially when there are valid Torah arguments that Hashem didn't intend for the exile to be this harsh.

I might be in favor of allowing Jewish men to bring non-Jewish wives into Israel as long as the wives convert...And I'm not even sure it should be like a super-rigorous process.  I guess they should learn Torah - but if they aren't against the idea of one G-d and aren't very attached to their other religion (like if they aren't practicing), then maybe we shouldn't hold them to a super high standard of perfection. 

They (the converted wives) should enjoy Judaism, but they shouldn't feel like a rabbi is watching them constantly, and that if they miss one little thing, then they aren't a worthy convert. As long as they aren't worshiping idols and are doing some Judaism, maybe they should be ok?

I guess my point is, if the non-Jewish woman isn't really involved in any other religion (the way some Jews are secular today), maybe they are sort of like a blank slate, and their conversion shouldn't be too hard.

I will check out the lecture and post my opinions if they change.

 

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I think this was sort of a unique situation. I could be wrong and may not have the story correct...

But didn't an enemy (was it Baalam?) send a gaggle of Midianite hookers to get dolled up and tempt the men of Israel?

I think maybe this case would be different from one where a Jew and non-Jew met regularly.

The specific set up of the Midianite women in the Pinchas story was from the beginning a plot to kill Jews.

 Yes you are right, but still its something that is allways Disgusting in G-d's eyes, even one encounter. And the Halacha Technically is that if someone is having sex with a non-Jewish women, at the exact time (not before or later), one can barge in and kill both of them, BUT the person who can do this is only someone who is like Pinhas who is Zealous for G-d, someone who is completly connected to G-d and is Zealous for G-d, and just like G-d is disgusted by this so is he (no one here is on that level, BUT we can see what G-d thinks about this act).

yah..that's not going to happen anytime soon in our lifetime....thank goodness...

Why thank goodness? Either way, the person who does this will have his soul cut off forever (unless he does REAL tishuva (with all the proper steps and never does it again + he will still experience some amount of suffering (just as a Shabbat desecrator) even in this world. Even for one act - not only "marriage".

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Ok.

Let's say we're living in the land of Israel.

We've annihilated many nations in GoguMagog, we've recaptured the borders of Biblical Israel, burned out the idols from the land and reinstated the Sanhedrin.

In this case I think there would be much less incentive for Jews to intermarry.

Then I think you could possibly ban intermarriage and institute harsh penalties in the land of Israel, only because non-Jewish men and women traveling there would have to abide by Jewish law.

But this isn't exactly the case - We've been nationally defiled (well maybe not defiled, but certainly not in top form) for thousands of years - of course some Jews are tired of this and want to intermarry.  Even Torah arguments say Hashem didn't mean for the exile to be this bad.

It's not like the Sea just split, we're on the other side thanking Hashem for great miracles, and some guy runs off with a non-Jewish woman. 

It's more like we've been through a lot, more than some people can bear psychologically, and they want something a little less heavy, something fun and bright and happy.

So I think we have to have some compassion for the Jewish men who have intermarried. Especially when there are valid Torah arguments that Hashem didn't intend for the exile to be this harsh.

I might be in favor of allowing Jewish men to bring non-Jewish wives into Israel as long as the wives convert...And I'm not even sure it should be like a super-rigorous process.  I guess they should learn Torah - but if they aren't against the idea of one G-d and aren't very attached to their other religion (like if they aren't practicing), then maybe we shouldn't hold them to a super high standard of perfection. 

They (the converted wives) should enjoy Judaism, but they shouldn't feel like a rabbi is watching them constantly, and that if they miss one little thing, then they aren't a worthy convert. As long as they aren't worshiping idols and are doing some Judaism, maybe they should be ok?

I guess my point is, if the non-Jewish woman isn't really involved in any other religion (the way some Jews are secular today), maybe they are sort of like a blank slate, and their conversion shouldn't be too hard.

I will check out the lecture and post my opinions if they change.

 

 I was reading your post and wanted to write a lot, but then you said something smart in the last sentence, and you are smart for doing that. When you finish I would expect you to remove your above post.

[Dr. Dan]

I think this was sort of a unique situation. I could be wrong and may not have the story correct...

But didn't an enemy (was it Baalam?) send a gaggle of Midianite hookers to get dolled up and tempt the men of Israel?

I think maybe this case would be different from one where a Jew and non-Jew met regularly.

The specific set up of the Midianite women in the Pinchas story was from the beginning a plot to kill Jews.

 Yes you are right, but still its something that is allways Disgusting in G-d's eyes, even one encounter. And the Halacha Technically is that if someone is having sex with a non-Jewish women, at the exact time (not before or later), one can barge in and kill both of them, BUT the person who can do this is only someone who is like Pinhas who is Zealous for G-d, someone who is completly connected to G-d and is Zealous for G-d, and just like G-d is disgusted by this so is he (no one here is on that level, BUT we can see what G-d thinks about this act).

yah..that's not going to happen anytime soon in our lifetime....thank goodness...

Why thank goodness? Either way, the person who does this will have his soul cut off forever (unless he does REAL tishuva (with all the proper steps and never does it again + he will still experience some amount of suffering (just as a Shabbat desecrator) even in this world. Even for one act - not only "marriage".

Ok good..as long as one gets to live...

Gd is merciful...so should people, especially Jews.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I think this was sort of a unique situation. I could be wrong and may not have the story correct...

But didn't an enemy (was it Baalam?) send a gaggle of Midianite hookers to get dolled up and tempt the men of Israel?

I think maybe this case would be different from one where a Jew and non-Jew met regularly.

The specific set up of the Midianite women in the Pinchas story was from the beginning a plot to kill Jews.

 Yes you are right, but still its something that is allways Disgusting in G-d's eyes, even one encounter. And the Halacha Technically is that if someone is having sex with a non-Jewish women, at the exact time (not before or later), one can barge in and kill both of them, BUT the person who can do this is only someone who is like Pinhas who is Zealous for G-d, someone who is completly connected to G-d and is Zealous for G-d, and just like G-d is disgusted by this so is he (no one here is on that level, BUT we can see what G-d thinks about this act).

yah..that's not going to happen anytime soon in our lifetime....thank goodness...

Why thank goodness? Either way, the person who does this will have his soul cut off forever (unless he does REAL tishuva (with all the proper steps and never does it again + he will still experience some amount of suffering (just as a Shabbat desecrator) even in this world. Even for one act - not only "marriage".

Ok good..as long as one gets to live...

Gd is merciful...so should people, especially Jews.

 (I dont want to sound annoying) but, is that all that matters? That person will be cut off, FOREVER, and all that matters is if he will get to live life here? (allthought who says that he wont also get punished in this world, either way eternity is much more important then this world which isn't the blink of an eye compared to ETERNITY.
 And in this case Pinhas was given the noble Peace prize (what would have been for his time- but literally the "covenent of Peace") for his great act, and that was concidered true mercy.

[Dr. Dan]

I think this was sort of a unique situation. I could be wrong and may not have the story correct...

But didn't an enemy (was it Baalam?) send a gaggle of Midianite hookers to get dolled up and tempt the men of Israel?

I think maybe this case would be different from one where a Jew and non-Jew met regularly.

The specific set up of the Midianite women in the Pinchas story was from the beginning a plot to kill Jews.

 Yes you are right, but still its something that is allways Disgusting in G-d's eyes, even one encounter. And the Halacha Technically is that if someone is having sex with a non-Jewish women, at the exact time (not before or later), one can barge in and kill both of them, BUT the person who can do this is only someone who is like Pinhas who is Zealous for G-d, someone who is completly connected to G-d and is Zealous for G-d, and just like G-d is disgusted by this so is he (no one here is on that level, BUT we can see what G-d thinks about this act).

yah..that's not going to happen anytime soon in our lifetime....thank goodness...

Why thank goodness? Either way, the person who does this will have his soul cut off forever (unless he does REAL tishuva (with all the proper steps and never does it again + he will still experience some amount of suffering (just as a Shabbat desecrator) even in this world. Even for one act - not only "marriage".

Ok good..as long as one gets to live...

Gd is merciful...so should people, especially Jews.

 (I dont want to sound annoying) but, is that all that matters? That person will be cut off, FOREVER, and all that matters is if he will get to live life here? (allthought who says that he wont also get punished in this world, either way eternity is much more important then this world which isn't the blink of an eye compared to ETERNITY.
 And in this case Pinhas was given the noble Peace prize (what would have been for his time- but literally the "covenent of Peace") for his great act, and that was concidered true mercy.

Yes all that matters is this life...not eternity..

I'm not into any religion that emphasizes on after lives...so if you want to practice your religion that way, be my guest...

[Maccabi]

well, I watched the video.

I'm not going to delete my other post, but I have taken the rabbi's words it into consideration and I take it somewhat seriously. A lot of what Rabbi Mizrachi said was pretty powerful.

I don't want to mislead any Jews to think it's ok.  If I am mistaken in my beliefs than I hope that it is I and I alone who suffer and I don't want to mislead anyone.

Honestly, this stuff just messes with my mind way too much.  It seems sadistic to be tempted day in, day out by beautiful goyas and then be told that being with just 1 for 1 second is cut off for eternity.  This is not my favorite aspect of Judaism

Maybe it will be easier if I move to Israel.

Also, in regards to my last post - I know all or most of the Jews that died during this exile died to sanctify G-d. Just want to clarify that, but I think if you look at some of the sexual deviance among Jews today, it can be attributed to a horrible exile that was too much mentally...Like it has warped things so extremely that I find it hard to be too judgmental towards fellow Jews who couldn't take it anymore and wanted to assimilate. 

I mean, the biggest reason for massive intermarriage is probably the holocaust.  Let's not say that intermarriage is the 'silent holocaust' - what a bunch of bologna - the two things aren't even comparable in my opinion.  One probably led to another.  I wonder what the statistics are? How many Jews intermarried and at what rate before the Holocaust, and how many intermarried and at what rate afterwards?

Also, are there any other stories in the Bible of Jews being punished for relations with Goyas?  I mean it must have happened thousands of times...If it were such a huge sin, why would there only be the one mention of it, and under the circumstances where the goyas were sent as an act of war?

Also, why did the Rabbi immigrate from Israel to the USA? I am suspicious of Rabbis teaching the most hardcore aspects of Judaism who don't live in Israel (except for Chaim who literally can't go). Don't get me wrong, he is a great speaker, and I enjoy his method of teaching (maybe he is in USA to help diaspora Jews), but if you are going to preach that touching a women means you're cut off, you should probably at least be living in Israel.

Any thoughts?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

well, I watched the video.

I'm not going to delete my other post, but I have taken the rabbi's words it into consideration and I take it somewhat seriously. A lot of what Rabbi Mizrachi said was pretty powerful.

I don't want to mislead any Jews to think it's ok.  If I am mistaken in my beliefs than I hope that it is I and I alone who suffer and I don't want to mislead anyone.

Honestly, this stuff just messes with my mind way too much.  It seems sadistic to be tempted day in, day out by beautiful goyas and then be told that being with just 1 for 1 second is cut off for eternity.  This is not my favorite aspect of Judaism

Maybe it will be easier if I move to Israel.

Also, in regards to my last post - I know all or most of the Jews that died during this exile died to sanctify G-d. Just want to clarify that, but I think if you look at some of the sexual deviance among Jews today, it can be attributed to a horrible exile that was too much mentally...Like it has warped things so extremely that I find it hard to be too judgmental towards fellow Jews who couldn't take it anymore and wanted to assimilate. 

I mean, the biggest reason for massive intermarriage is probably the holocaust.  Let's not say that intermarriage is the 'silent holocaust' - what a bunch of bologna - the two things aren't even comparable in my opinion.  One probably led to another.  I wonder what the statistics are? How many Jews intermarried and at what rate before the Holocaust, and how many intermarried and at what rate afterwards?

Also, are there any other stories in the Bible of Jews being punished for relations with Goyas?  I mean it must have happened thousands of times...If it were such a huge sin, why would there only be the one mention of it, and under the circumstances where the goyas were sent as an act of war?

Also, why did the Rabbi immigrate from Israel to the USA? I am suspicious of Rabbis teaching the most hardcore aspects of Judaism who don't live in Israel (except for Chaim who literally can't go). Don't get me wrong, he is a great speaker, and I enjoy his method of teaching (maybe he is in USA to help diaspora Jews), but if you are going to preach that touching a women means you're cut off, you should probably at least be living in Israel.

Any thoughts?

Yea, dont worry about the Rabbi (their are reasons also, if you really want to know personally about him, then contact him either in person in Queens, or by phone (PM me if you really care),
 All what should matter for you, and also for anyone here who has sined in this aspect is to right away make a complete turn. The fact that it got to you is good, but as you know from the video which brought the sources, etc. that this is a VERY serious thing. What needs to be done right afterwards is for one (whoever that is) is to do serious Tishuva, and with Tishiva hope and pray that the sins are forgiven. And anyway, moving to Israel has nothing to do with this particular Tishuva process. If one conducts these acts with non-jewish girls here what would make them stop and not pollute the Jewish girls in Israel also? 
 The first step is to stop immediatly and completly since one now knows the seriousness of the sin.(and also learn right away the right steps to do Tishuva, if at least one cares about themselves.

[Dr. Dan]

watching the video.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

So, cheating is allowed? even if its .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000001 %  ?
 beacause if we say no, and the child (who is a mamzer) might be offended?
 Stop making your own rules, and "being nice" , lets stick to the rules of G-d and not be reform.

" voted that it should be banned. Intermarriage is insane especially when you realize that all the generations of jews before you have been cut off with your offspring"

Generations before you cut off?  What are you referring to?

In addition, your previous post referred to a potential child of intermarriage as a mamzer.  But this is not what is defined as a mamzer.  A Jewish child born to a non-Jewish father (ie the mother was Jewish and the father not Jewish) is not a mamzer.

I watched the video and loved it.  Rabbi Mizrachi is very interesting.  I also enjoy his speaking style and pronunciation.  His accent is almost identical to that of a great rabbi I learned with this summer.   

This is a hypothetical question but... Is there a distinction between touching of a Jewish girl vs. touching a non Jewish girl.  Is it worse because it is with a non Jew?  Or are you pretty much toast either way? 

What about a case of one of those 'R&C' Jews that was 'raised Jewish' but isn't really halachically Jewish, but at the time you had no idea, having met them at some Jewish function or what have you.  Are you liable for having engaged in unseemly behavior with a Jewish girl or with a nonJewish girl, and do these punishments or the ramifications of these behaviors differ at all?  In addition, if you fall to temptation but are sincere in your shame over the incident or sincere in your convictions that it was wrong and that you were simply weak, is it very difficult to engage in proper teshuvah?  It seems the punishments are quite harsh for us for even the slightest of infractions (yes, I know this is a severe transgression, but really what aveirah isn't severe?  It seems they all are. The idea of getting "cut off" for a mistake is scary indeed.)

[Dr. Dan]

i saw the video too. I also enjoyed listening to him. I might not agree with the way he goes about his thing, but still a definitive teacher to add to my list.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

So, cheating is allowed? even if its .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000001 %  ?
 beacause if we say no, and the child (who is a mamzer) might be offended?
 Stop making your own rules, and "being nice" , lets stick to the rules of G-d and not be reform.

" voted that it should be banned. Intermarriage is insane especially when you realize that all the generations of jews before you have been cut off with your offspring"

Generations before you cut off?  What are you referring to?

In addition, your previous post referred to a potential child of intermarriage as a mamzer.  But this is not what is defined as a mamzer.  A Jewish child born to a non-Jewish father (ie the mother was Jewish and the father not Jewish) is not a mamzer.

I watched the video and loved it.  Rabbi Mizrachi is very interesting.  I also enjoy his speaking style and pronunciation.  His accent is almost identical to that of a great rabbi I learned with this summer.   

This is a hypothetical question but... Is there a distinction between touching of a Jewish girl vs. touching a non Jewish girl.  Is it worse because it is with a non Jew?  Or are you pretty much toast either way? 

What about a case of one of those 'R&C' Jews that was 'raised Jewish' but isn't really halachically Jewish, but at the time you had no idea, having met them at some Jewish function or what have you.  Are you liable for having engaged in unseemly behavior with a Jewish girl or with a nonJewish girl, and do these punishments or the ramifications of these behaviors differ at all?  In addition, if you fall to temptation but are sincere in your shame over the incident or sincere in your convictions that it was wrong and that you were simply weak, is it very difficult to engage in proper teshuvah?  It seems the punishments are quite harsh for us for even the slightest of infractions (yes, I know this is a severe transgression, but really what aveirah isn't severe?  It seems they all are. The idea of getting "cut off" for a mistake is scary indeed.)

If your referring to me, no I didnt say that is a mamzer, I was specific, re-read the post (I said is she cheated and then produced a mamzer).
 "generations cut off before you" was said by Dan.

 You toast either way, because you not allowed to touch a Jewish girl before marriage either way, becuase their is the issue of nidda. (and definitly not have any relations with either of them).

- If you fell in the past, and now know the seriousness of the issue ( I belive you have a chance), but if one did these things and is expected to fall again, then what can I say - for sure 100% his Tishuva would be much harder to achive and their is a Passuk (dont have it in front of me) that says that G-d will personally prevent one who says that he will sin and then later will do Tishuva.
 If one knows that they are weak, then make the proper barriers for oneself. Dont go clubbing, and other places where you know that the liklyhood is that you can fall.  Also continue learning Torah daily, and have G-d in your mind at all times possible.

[Maccabi]

whatever Tzvi.

do you also think jacking off is worse than murder?

Tell me Tzvi...In your estimation, do you think having relations with a goya is worse than homosexuality?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

whatever Tzvi.

do you also think jacking off is worse than murder?

Tell me Tzvi...In your estimation, do you think having relations with a goya is worse than homosexuality?

I dont know for both. I didn't hear an answer for either questions.

[Maccabi]

If someone says the worst thing you can do is be with a goya then that implies that it is worse than homosexuality. In his lecture, I believe he says that it (relations with gentile) is worse than anything.  See if you can find it in the first five minutes of the video.

Awaiting your response.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

If someone says the worst thing you can do is be with a goya then that implies that it is worse than homosexuality. In his lecture, I believe he says that it (relations with gentile) is worse than anything.  See if you can find it in the first five minutes of the video.

Awaiting your response.

 If he said that, then you got your answer, why do you need to ask me, if you got your answer.

[Dr. Dan]

If someone says the worst thing you can do is be with a goya then that implies that it is worse than homosexuality. In his lecture, I believe he says that it (relations with gentile) is worse than anything.  See if you can find it in the first five minutes of the video.

Awaiting your response.

well, the rabbi is implying that nobody practices homosexuality.

[Maccabi]

I am not 100% sure he said this (or maybe I didn't hear it right or I misunderstood) and I want you to confirm.

It's part of the logic process.

Is it not a valid question?

I'm making an argument here to defend Jewish men because I think they should be allowed to have Goyas if the women convert at the time of marriage.  Especially since we've been in Galut 2,000 years and circumstances are extenuating. 

I'm in favor of extreme leniency on this particular issue.

I want to know, if this lecturer that you are using for your argument thinks that it would be preferable, or less of a sin for a Jewish man to do a homosexual act, than to hook up with a goya according to his understanding of Torah.

Look, I know that it may be a disgusting question...But I think it is a valid and perfectly important question and if it can't be answered straightforwardly, then I will disregard your arguments on the topic.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

   Your not allowed to do this and your not allowed to do that, which is worse I am not personally able to answer, if you care ask the Rabbi, he will tell you your answer, but dont try to bait me to answer something and then you say see this or that, or look the other thing is worse, so I can justify doing what my lusts want. - I didn't hear him address that particullarly, BUT he did say that a Jew having relations with a goya is worse then for him to have with his mother.
 The galut does not justify anything, and has nothing to do with anything. If someone is really having a problem let them find a Jewish women, marry her properly and then enjoy himself, but allowing or justifying something that is EVIL should never be done. If one has done this, he should be ashamed and their is no mitzva to confess this type of sin publicly or even worse to try to justify it.

[Dr. Dan]

  Your not allowed to do this and your not allowed to do that, which is worse I am not personally able to answer, if you care ask the Rabbi, he will tell you your answer, but dont try to bait me to answer something and then you say see this or that, or look the other thing is worse, so I can justify doing what my lusts want. - I didn't hear him address that particullarly, BUT he did say that a Jew having relations with a goya is worse then for him to have with his mother.
 The galut does not justify anything, and has nothing to do with anything. If someone is really having a problem let them find a Jewish women, marry her properly and then enjoy himself, but allowing or justifying something that is EVIL should never be done. If one has done this, he should be ashamed and their is no mitzva to confess this type of sin publicly or even worse to try to justify it.

Actually, thank you for clarifying that part..it seemed confusing to me what he was implying..

So he was saying, just to clarify, that A jewish man to go with a goya, Gd forbid, is worst than he with his mother, Gd forbid...

I mean, that's a demented Jewish logic...however, I do see his point.

No one in their right mind can ever even consider having relations with his mother...it's sick and no physical normal body could ever do such a thing...so that ever happening is impossible for any decent human being...What the rabbi seems to emphasize is that it is even sicker and more disgusting than incest to be with someone of a different religion.

I don't quite agree with him with that type of logic. However, it's a fence that he is building and it is a legitimate in my eyes.

I mean if i had kids one day, Gd willing, I would raise fear in their heads with this same logic so that they never would consider being with a goya...just create that sick image of incest and that going with a goya is much much worse!

[Kiwi]

damn you..you moved it here again!

LOL they are keeping you on your toes Doc 

[Dr. Dan]

damn you..you moved it here again!

LOL they are keeping you on your toes Doc 

It's a great topic for everyone to learn from...

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

damn you..you moved it here again!

LOL they are keeping you on your toes Doc 

It's a great topic for everyone to learn from...

ooooo. You learned a lot I see. Glad you are joining up with your Sefardic heritige.