Chaimfan's Response To Rubystar's Ask JTF Question

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Thanks for answering all my questions so far Chaim

I was curious if any Christians can be considered by Jews to be righteous Gentiles, because most Jews I've spoken to have told me that Christians are idol worshippers and because of this they can not be considered to be "righteous Gentiles" even if they do righteous things or help Jews. I was wondering how you believed about this topic.

Rubystars, I can save you a question. Chaim does NOT consider Christians to be idolaters in any way, and believes that Christians and other righteous Gentiles will go to heaven. Most Jews do not think this way either--it is an extreme minority that is typified by the people on sites such as revava.org that believe in this. Chaim has always welcomed Christians and all other pro-Israel Gentiles into the movement, just as Rabbi Kahane (zt"l) did. Jews generally believe that any person who abides by the seven Noahide Laws (do not steal, do not kill, do not commit adultery, do not eat the meat of live animals, worship G-d, etc.) is righteous and "saved".

[Rubystars]

Most Jews do not think this way either--it is an extreme minority that is typified by the people on sites such as revava.org that believe in this.

Most Jews I've spoken to believe this way, although some have told me that they don't consider Christians to be idolaters in the same way that someone worshipping a statue would be.

Chaim has always welcomed Christians and all other pro-Israel Gentiles into the movement, just as Rabbi Kahane (zt"l) did. Jews generally believe that any person who abides by the seven Noahide Laws (do not steal, do not kill, do not commit adultery, do not eat the meat of live animals, worship G-d, etc.) is righteous and "saved".

One of the Noahide laws is about idolatry. While I don't believe in committing sexual immorality or eating limbs off of live animals, etc. I do worship Jesus as part of the G-d head, which means that to some Jews, I'm considered to be an idol worshipper, putting me in automatic violation of the rule against idolatry.

In fact the friend who introduced me to JTF believes that Christians are idolaters, but we're still friends with one another.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Most Jews I've spoken to believe this way, although some have told me that they don't consider Christians to be idolaters in the same way that someone worshipping a statue would be.
One of the Noahide laws is about idolatry. While I don't believe in committing sexual immorality or eating limbs off of live animals, etc. I do worship Jesus as part of the G-d head, which means that to some Jews, I'm considered to be an idol worshipper, putting me in automatic violation of the rule against idolatry.

In fact the friend who introduced me to JTF believes that Christians are idolaters, but we're still friends with one another.

Well, I can't tell you who these "most Jews" are, except to tell you that Chaim and Yacov do NOT feel this way, and that the Torah does not teach this. If some rabbinical authorities have decided this, that is their belief, and not a tenet of Judaism. Chaim won't tell you any differently than I have. I have never felt like I have been viewed as an idolater in any way.

[Rubystars]

Well, I can't tell you who these "most Jews" are, except to tell you that Chaim and Yacov do NOT feel this way, and that the Torah does not teach this. If some rabbinical authorities have decided this, that is their belief, and not a tenet of Judaism. Chaim won't tell you any differently than I have. I have never felt like I have been viewed as an idolater in any way.

That's wonderful. Thanks for letting me know. I might edit my question later this week to ask a slightly different question. Thanks C.F.

[newman]

Just because somebody is (technically) an idollator doesn't mean they won't go to heaven.

While christianity may be considered 'technical' idolatry by Jews, the majority of Rabbis agree that 'the righteous of ALL nations have a place in the world to come'. That means righteous hindus, buhdists, christians etc.

The main thing is to adhere to the 7 Laws of Noah. G_d will not condemn somebody who has kept those laws EXCEPT the one regarding idolatry because of his up-bringing and culture. How can a peasant in a village in India be expected to reject hinduism without help?

[KansasJew]

I can sum it up in one sentence........

If your a Jew be an excellent Jew and if your a Christian be an excellent Christian.

[newman]

I can sum it up in one sentence........

If your a Jew be an excellent Jew and if your a Christian be an excellent Christian.

And if you're a muSSlim, you're doomed.

[OdKahaneChai]

Thanks for answering all my questions so far Chaim

I was curious if any Christians can be considered by Jews to be righteous Gentiles, because most Jews I've spoken to have told me that Christians are idol worshippers and because of this they can not be considered to be "righteous Gentiles" even if they do righteous things or help Jews. I was wondering how you believed about this topic.

Rubystars, I can save you a question. Chaim does NOT consider Christians to be idolaters in any way, and believes that Christians and other righteous Gentiles will go to heaven. Most Jews do not think this way either--it is an extreme minority that is typified by the people on sites such as revava.org that believe in this.

This is actually not true.  The vast majority of Rabbis hold that Christianity is, in fact, idolatry.  Chaim follows the Meiri, who is in the extreme minority.  Just to clear things up...

And most of the people on Revava are good people.  Ha'ivri, I do not want to say any Loshon Hora about...

[Dr. Dan]

I'll add that for a Jew to say this is not doing this in the spirit of Jeramiah who considered a righteous religion one in which someone was merciful, walked with Gd, and a third thing that I can't  remember.

[Lisa]

I've read that Maimonides wrote somewhere that teaching Christians the Torah is fine, and that they're not pagans since they accept our Tanach/Torah.  Now if I remember correctly, he was against teaching the Torah to moosies, being that it would be futile, or something to that effect. 

[OdKahaneChai]

I've read that Maimonides wrote somewhere that teaching Christians the Torah is fine, and that they're not pagans since they accept our Tanach /Torah.  Now if I remember correctly, he was against teaching the Torah to moosies, being that it would be futile, or something to that effect. 

Rambam holds that, threatened by death, one can convert to Islam, but not Christianity, because Islam is not idolatry whereas Christianity is.  This is the majority opinion.

[Lisa]

So who was against teaching Tanakh to Muslims?

[newman]

I've read that Maimonides wrote somewhere that teaching Christians the Torah is fine, and that they're not pagans since they accept our Tanach /Torah.  Now if I remember correctly, he was against teaching the Torah to moosies, being that it would be futile, or something to that effect. 

I suspect that was for the following reasons:

1/ christians maintain that the Tanach is right and correct but 'G-d changed his mind about the status of Jews'.

2/ muSSlims on the other hand believe the Tanach to be 'a perversion' and that 'Adam and Eve, Moses etc were all muSSlims, the real tanach taught iSSlam' etc etc.

Clearly it would be a waste of time teaching the Tanach to the sheep humpers as they regard it as false.

[OdKahaneChai]

So who was against teaching Tanakh to Muslims?

One shouldn't teach Tanach to any Goyim, I don't know what the Rambam says about this, though.

[newman]

So who was against teaching Tanakh to Muslims?

One shouldn't teach Tanach to any Goyim, I don't know what the Rambam says about this, though.

It's the Talmud Jews aren't allowed to teach the Goyim. The whole purpose of Jews existance is to bring Torah (and ethical mono-theism) to the goyim.

[Rubystars]

1/ christians maintain that the Tanach is right and correct but 'G-d changed his mind about the status of Jews'.

That would be those Christians who hold to a doctrine known as replacement theology, but not all Christians.

Oh, and it's really nice to see everyone's opinions and discussion on the topic. I hope everyone remains friendly to one another in this thread. I enjoy learning about different religions and this is giving me some good insight about the different opinions within Judaism when it comes to idolatry and what that entails.

[KansasJew]

Someone wishing to learn from the Jewish People. They watch us and learn from our examples in how we live in our community and how we interact with the world around us. They can ask questions and we can explain why we do what we do.

Not by direct study from scriptures.

[Rubystars]

It's the Talmud Jews aren't allowed to teach the Goyim. The whole purpose of Jews existance is to bring Torah (and ethical mono-theism) to the goyim.

I knew I had heard that somewhere. When I asked Chaim about it though, he said there weren't any restrictions and he doesn't know why the guy got upset when I asked about it. So now I'm a bit confused.  

[newman]

Someone wishing to learn from the Jewish People. They watch us and learn from our examples in how we live in our community and how we interact with the world around us. They can ask questions and we can explain why we do what we do.

Not by direct study from scriptures.

Yeah that's with regard to the Talmud.

I've never heard anybody say that Jews cannot teach Tanach to goyim.

In fact, there is an orthodox-run institute in Israel where christians go to learn Tanach.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Most Jews I've spoken to believe this way, although some have told me that they don't consider Christians to be idolaters in the same way that someone worshipping a statue would be.
One of the Noahide laws is about idolatry. While I don't believe in committing sexual immorality or eating limbs off of live animals, etc. I do worship Jesus as part of the G-d head, which means that to some Jews, I'm considered to be an idol worshipper, putting me in automatic violation of the rule against idolatry.

In fact the friend who introduced me to JTF believes that Christians are idolaters, but we're still friends with one another.

Well, I can't tell you who these "most Jews" are, except to tell you that Chaim and Yacov do NOT feel this way, and that the Torah does not teach this. If some rabbinical authorities have decided this, that is their belief, and not a tenet of Judaism. Chaim won't tell you any differently than I have. I have never felt like I have been viewed as an idolater in any way.

In the gemara....
It's a machloikes.  I definitely wouldn't advise it for a goy but it's certainly not for me or anyone else to judge if there was no real decision by the rabbis (I'm not sure what they ruled, I haven't learned that gemara).  One thing IS for certain that for a JEW to worship x-ianity or yashka, it WOULD DEFINITELY be idolatry. 

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

- Jews dont have a responsibility to telling the nations that their religions are false (unless a Prophet ex- Jonah), unless it serves a purpose to the Jews or unless a missionary or someone else wanting to convert Jews, then it could be shown  and proven etc. BUT one thing that I dont agree is besides Jews becoming other religions and cults, is to also approve of them or say that non-Jews should follow religion X Y or Z, or statements such as - America should become an X country, or something similar to that.

[Dexter]

C.F. Jews do believe Christians are idol worshippers, the Rambam also confirms it.

[ASHISH]

What about hindus

[Lisa]

Dexter, I believe that Jews are the ones not aloud to believe in the whole concept of a Trinity.  I don't think most rabbis of today go around telling their congregations who is and who is not an idol worshipper.  Nor should we care about that.  We live and let live, and hope others do the same for us.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

C.F. Jews do believe Christians are idol worshippers, the Rambam also confirms it.

Evidence?