Moshiah (Add on to what Judea was saying)

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

THE RAMBAN: "THE MOSHIACH WILL BE SO WHEN HE DOES WHAT HE IS  SUPPOSED TO DO AND NOT WHEN SOMEONE SAYS THAT HE IS MOSHIACH"

THE DAY IN WHICH MOSHE RABBENU WAS BORN HE WAS NOT THE REDEEMER, AND HE HAD NOT ARRIVED, BUT WHEN HE CAME TO PHAROH ON THE COMMAND OF HASHEM AND SAID TO HIM: “SEND MY PEOPLE…” THEN THE REDEEMER HAD COME. AND ALSO THE MOSHIACH, WHEN HE COMES TO THE RULERS OF THE WORLD AND SAYS TO THEM: “SEND MY PEOPLE…” THEN MOSHIACH WILL HAVE COME. AND UNTIL THAT DAY HE HAS YET TO COME, AND HE IS NOT MOSHIACH AT ALL. FOR KING DAVID, THE DAY HE WAS BORN HE WAS NOT MOSHIACH, BUT WHEN SHMUEL ANOINTED HIM, HE BECAME MOSHIACH. AND ON THE DAY THAT ELIYAHU WILL ANOINT MOSHIACH ACCORDING TO HASHEM’S COMMAND, THEN HE WILL BE CALLED MOSHIACH.   RAMBAN, MILCHEMET HASHEM [VIKUACH HA RAMBAN] SIMAN 24

(just one, you can also go to www.Israel613.com  - in the categories of "Lubavitch", "False Moshiachs"and a few others, that cover this.

[Lubab]

THE RAMBAN: "THE MOSHIACH WILL BE SO WHEN HE DOES WHAT HE IS  SUPPOSED TO DO AND NOT WHEN SOMEONE SAYS THAT HE IS MOSHIACH"

THE DAY IN WHICH MOSHE RABBENU WAS BORN HE WAS NOT THE REDEEMER, AND HE HAD NOT ARRIVED, BUT WHEN HE CAME TO PHAROH ON THE COMMAND OF HASHEM AND SAID TO HIM: “SEND MY PEOPLE…” THEN THE REDEEMER HAD COME. AND ALSO THE MOSHIACH, WHEN HE COMES TO THE RULERS OF THE WORLD AND SAYS TO THEM: “SEND MY PEOPLE…” THEN MOSHIACH WILL HAVE COME. AND UNTIL THAT DAY HE HAS YET TO COME, AND HE IS NOT MOSHIACH AT ALL. FOR KING DAVID, THE DAY HE WAS BORN HE WAS NOT MOSHIACH, BUT WHEN SHMUEL ANOINTED HIM, HE BECAME MOSHIACH. AND ON THE DAY THAT ELIYAHU WILL ANOINT MOSHIACH ACCORDING TO HASHEM’S COMMAND, THEN HE WILL BE CALLED MOSHIACH.   RAMBAN, MILCHEMET HASHEM [VIKUACH HA RAMBAN] SIMAN 24

(just one, you can also go to www.Israel613.com  - in the categories of "Lubavitch", "False Moshiachs"and a few others, that cover this.

Yes but also see Rambam Hilchos Melachim where the Rambam speaks approvingly about Rabbi Akiva calling Bar Kochba Moshiach even before he completed his mission.

The Rambam in hilchos melachim sets out criteria for a chezkas moshiach and a vadai moshiach. When someone has chezkas moshiach status we can call them Moshiach like Rabbi Akiva did with the force of a chazaka.

[MassuhDGoodName]

With this discussion, I am reminded of the tale handed down from the East European shtetl:

It was the custom in the shtetl for the Jewish community to appoint someone born with a mental retardation, or some other affliction, to a full-time position; sitting atop the village gates, in waiting for the arrival of the Moshiach.

This guardian watchman would then have the honor of announcing to the community the arrival of Moshiach.

One day, some Jews in the shtetl were walking along, and turning to the watchman, asked of him, "So...Tell me, how do you like your job of waiting for the arrival of Moshiach?"

To which the watchman replied, "It's steady work!"

[q_q_]

Yes but also see Rambam Hilchos Melachim where the Rambam speaks approvingly about Rabbi Akiva calling Bar Kochba Moshiach even before he completed his mission.

The Rambam in hilchos melachim sets out criteria for a chezkas moshiach and a vadai moshiach. When someone has chezkas moshiach status we can call them Moshiach like Rabbi Akiva did with the force of a chazaka.

can you define the hebrew words and give references?

I see in hilchot melachim..
But rabbi akiva was -wrong- in thinking bar kochba was moshiach. And as he soon discovered.  Bar kochba was not moshiach.

RAMBAM talks about presuming somebody is moshiach.. But it is a presumption..
A wrong presumption.

I just read here that he was renamed from bar kochba to bar kozibah (son of deceit!)  (though I have heard he was a wicked man, so that may be part of it... He did kick a rabbi!)
http://www.cyberessays.com/History/95.htm

[q_q_]

And regarding another point you made in an askjudea thread.. That RAMBAM says that if he is killed he is not the messiah.. Thus implying that if he dies a natural death it does not prove he isn`t..

The RAMBAM in ch11, says talks about the presumed messiah fighting the wars of G-d.. So it almost goes without saying that if he fails, it would be because he is killed..   There are those that died naturally, but still are not hte messiah.  Shabbetai Tzvi , he actually tried to fight hte wars of G-d.. He died naturally.. He is not the messiah.

RAMBAM says that if he does not succeed to this degree, or he is killed, then he is definitely not the messiah.

He does not say "if he does not succeed to this degree in this lifetime" !!

By your reasoning  almost many rabbis could be the messiah, or rather, described as messiah or presumed to be the messiah..  Because they keep the mitzvot, and succeed in some small way, in repairing the world, and if they do something to promote the noachide laws.

Aish HaTorah also make alot of people frum..  So does that Amnon Yitzchak fellow. 

So, The lubavitcher rebbe also did alot to promote the noachide laws.. and now we have small numbers of noachides (most non jews have not even heard of them.. most jews even!).

IMO.. if it is the case that every generation has a potential moshiach who gets the role if we deserve it. Then Rabbi Meir Kahane ZTL HYD, was the best candidate. If anybody was fighting the wars of G-d, it was him. He attended the first conference of bnai noach and spoke to gentile audiences.. Obviously, he was not.. And/Or we did not merit it.

Moshiach won`t be coming for a --long-- time.. because I reckon that for moshiach to come, we need a man on the level of rabbi kahane, or higher. If he could not do it, then it must be almost impossible to bring it soon. Nobody can at the moment.. And if jews did not merit it then.. then I don`t see us doing much more that would merit it now. As I understand it, he is meant to come by the year 6000. So over 200 years.  I would place a bet that it won`t be in the next hundred.  (as a 6 year old kid I would guess that he would come the next week! we were told he cannot come on friday, so I used to think "ah, darn, he cannot come today!"). Infact, I was always quite optimistic about him coming soon.. until I learnt about rabbi kahane ztl hyd. and the fact that he was murdered.. in the USA of all places.  I did once ask a rabbi if he is meant to come by 6000. HE said "no. jealousy will end in 6000. The world will end in 7000" !!!

In the words of Clint Eastwood "Marvellous" !

[mord]

Theres always a Mashiach he does'nt know it,if the generation has the Zachus he will come

[Lubab]

Yes but also see Rambam Hilchos Melachim where the Rambam speaks approvingly about Rabbi Akiva calling Bar Kochba Moshiach even before he completed his mission.

The Rambam in hilchos melachim sets out criteria for a chezkas moshiach and a vadai moshiach. When someone has chezkas moshiach status we can call them Moshiach like Rabbi Akiva did with the force of a chazaka.

can you define the hebrew words and give references?

I see in hilchot melachim..
But rabbi akiva was -wrong- in thinking bar kochba was moshiach. And as he soon discovered.  Bar kochba was not moshiach.

RAMBAM talks about presuming somebody is moshiach.. But it is a presumption..
A wrong presumption.

I just read here that he was renamed from bar kochba to bar kozibah (son of deceit!)  (though I have heard he was a wicked man, so that may be part of it... He did kick a rabbi!)
http://www.cyberessays.com/History/95.htm

It's true Rabbi Akiva had the wrong guy, but his (R' Akiva's) behavior until Bar Kochba was proven to be a false Messiah is cited by the Rambam with approval because a Chezkas moshaich maintains that presumption until he is invalidated by one of the Rambam's two criteria for invalidation (being killed, or failing in his mission).

Until one of those two things happen we are supposed to be believing that Moshaich can come today, and we should naturally be sensitive to a potential Moshiach should one arise especially if he has met the criteria for a chezkas moshiach.

The section I am reffering to is in Chapter 11 (don't have the book in front of me so I don't know the halacha #) but basically the Rambam cites the fact that Rabbi Akiva used to call Bar Kochba Moshiach and he goes on to use this practice by Rabbi Akiva as proof for his law that Moshiach need not perform any miracles to be proven to be Moshiach.

So we see the Rambam using this behavior as PROOF of his halacha. He clearly approved of Rabbi Akiva's behavior even though in the end Rabbi Akiva turned out to have the wrong guy.

If anyone is interested in an in depth analysis of Hilchos Melachim as it relates to Chabad Messianism I would recommend a few books written on the topic in hebrew by Rabbi Sholom Ber Wolpo called "Yechi Hamelech" and "Yechi Hamelach HaMoshiach".

There he gives the most in depth analysis that I think you will find anywhere.

 

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

TO OUR GOOD FRIENDS OF CHABAD LUBAVITCH:
WHAT A GREAT WORK YOU DO ON BEHALF OF ALL JEWS. YOU ARE ALWAYS INVOLVED IN GREAT ACTS OF KINDNESS TOWARDS THE JEWISH PEOPLE, BRINGING THEM CLOSER TO TORAH AND MITZVOT

THERE IS NO ONE ELSE THAT DOES AS MUCH KINDNESS AS YOU DO, FOTUNATE IS YOUR LOT

NEVERTHELESS  BE WARNED ABOUT SOME TROUBLING DEVELOPMENTS WHICH YOU SHOULD BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT

YOU ARE MAKING THE REBBE INTO A FALSE MESSIAH AND WHO KNOWS WHAT ALL THIS WILL LEAD TO?

PLEASE LEARN HOW TO LOOSE, IF THE REBBE IS JUST THE REBBE, IS THAT NOT ENOUGH FOR YOU?

LET HASHEM DECIDE WHO THE MOSHIACH IS, BE PATIENT, BECAUSE NOBODY KNOWS YET WHO THE MOSHIACH WILL BE

From www.Israel613.com  - Also many more (if I post, I would be accused of hatred, etc, but you can check it out yourself). Anyway their is no proof that Rabbi Shnerson was Moshiah, besides the fact that he and his followers presumed he was, since he was their leader, until he died, so then many still stayed with that opinion. 

[Lubab]

TO OUR GOOD FRIENDS OF CHABAD LUBAVITCH:
WHAT A GREAT WORK YOU DO ON BEHALF OF ALL JEWS. YOU ARE ALWAYS INVOLVED IN GREAT ACTS OF KINDNESS TOWARDS THE JEWISH PEOPLE, BRINGING THEM CLOSER TO TORAH AND MITZVOT

THERE IS NO ONE ELSE THAT DOES AS MUCH KINDNESS AS YOU DO, FOTUNATE IS YOUR LOT

NEVERTHELESS  BE WARNED ABOUT SOME TROUBLING DEVELOPMENTS WHICH YOU SHOULD BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT

YOU ARE MAKING THE REBBE INTO A FALSE MESSIAH AND WHO KNOWS WHAT ALL THIS WILL LEAD TO?

PLEASE LEARN HOW TO LOOSE, IF THE REBBE IS JUST THE REBBE, IS THAT NOT ENOUGH FOR YOU?

LET HASHEM DECIDE WHO THE MOSHIACH IS, BE PATIENT, BECAUSE NOBODY KNOWS YET WHO THE MOSHIACH WILL BE

From www.Israel613.com  - Also many more (if I post, I would be accused of hatred, etc, but you can check it out yourself). Anyway their is no proof that Rabbi Shnerson was Moshiah, besides the fact that he and his followers presumed he was, since he was their leader, until he died, so then many still stayed with that opinion. 

Who wrote this and how did they decide we are making the Rebbe into a "false Messiah". Can he back that up with facts sources and information, or does he just like to throw these terms around?

FYI: Only lately have people given Chabad credit for their kiruv work. Not too long ago people were also calling Chabad heretics for putting tefillin on with "goyim". We are always ahead of the times. First people protest, then they call us names...eventually they copy us and say it was their idea.

This cycle has gone on for a long time.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Lubab go on that site, on the left hand side go down and click on Lubavitch, also on False Moshiachs, their are many things written their both in Hebrew and English.
 Either way it cant be proven that he was the Moshiah, and the whole thing has to do with "my Rebbe", people just cant accept the fact that the Moshiach can come within anywhere from Israel and not particullarly from their group or sect. 
 Their is no proof, and the fact that one did "good things for the Jewish people", that can be said about a lot of people. 1 can argue that yeshu did the same, so therefor? or Shabti svi, or the many other false messiah's.

Also about kiruv work. 1 question for you. Why are their chabad houses in religious neighborhoods? If the people are allready religious, why is their a need for a Chabad kiruv organization?

[Lubab]

Also about kiruv work. 1 question for you. Why are their chabad houses in religious neighborhoods? If the people are allready religious, why is their a need for a Chabad kiruv organization?

To spread the teachings of Chassidus!

[judeanoncapta]

I would suggest that you all listen to this shiur about the connection between Chabad Messianism, Shabbetai Tzvi and Christianity.


habadjewish messianism.mp3 - 14.64MB

It is very enlightening.

[q_q_]

There are some lubavitchers that consider the Rebbe to be the messiah, and a more extreme group within that that actually think he is G-d!!

The yechi statement tends to be said by those that believe he is the messiah.. The ones that think he is G-d tend to say some sentence with the word Borainu in it..

In order that nobody is misled.. And please correct me if I am wrong lulav.. Do you think he is the messiah?   It seems like you might...

By the way..
If you say he is, then by that reasoning, many others could just as easily be the messiah too.
By your criteria..
Including moshe  rabbaynu could be him!!! He also taught the torah and the noachide laws, and died a natural death.

From a kabbalistic perspective, it is possible that the soul of some great rabbi could return as moshiach.. But that does not mean that that person was moshiach. Just that he will return - as somebody else - as  moshiach..

The RAMBAM does talk about the presumed messiah fighting the wars of G-d.. In chapter 11. That is why I think he said "if he is killed"  rather than "if he dies"  (assuming he does say "if he is killed")...
And anyhow, this is the presumed messiah.. Does not mean he is the messiah..
But if you are using that paragraph "if he is killed" as a loophole, then as I said, it could apply to almost anybody. And you ignore that he did not fight the wars of G-d (wars as RAMBAM describes them in hilchot melachim.. - laws of wars..), are real physical battles/wars.

"The Lubavitcher" was an old rabbi with a grey beard, living in america.. very active guy.. but non violent. Certainly not a bar kochba type guy!! Fighting proper wars!!

[Lubab]

The yechi statement tends to be said by those that believe he is the messiah.. The ones that think he is G-d tend to say some sentence with the word Borainu in it..

In order that nobody is misled.. And please correct me if I am wrong lulav.. Do you think he is the messiah?   It seems like you might...

Yes. I do.

The Rebbe-G-d situation suffers from two problems.

One problem is that some of these people running around are just plain nuts.

 The other problem is that there are legitimate statements by the Chassidic Rebbes that led to these nut's views, which are absolutely holy pure and true..but the second problem is that Chabad hasidic philosophy is written in a certain language. The language of hasidic and often kabbalistic terminology. The vast majority of people don't understand that language, so this can lead to many misunderstandings.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

The yechi statement tends to be said by those that believe he is the messiah.. The ones that think he is G-d tend to say some sentence with the word Borainu in it..

In order that nobody is misled.. And please correct me if I am wrong lulav.. Do you think he is the messiah?   It seems like you might...

Yes. I do.

The Rebbe-G-d situation suffers from two problems.

One problem is that some of these people running around are just plain nuts.

 The other problem is that there are legitimate statements by the Chassidic Rebbes that led to these nut's views, which are absolutely holy pure and true..but the second problem is that Chabad hasidic philosophy is written in a certain language. The language of hasidic and often kabbalistic terminology. The vast majority of people don't understand that language, so this can lead to many misunderstandings.

Exactly, their shouldn't have been in the first place this mess created where some step over the line completly and are in the category of idol-worshippers. I belive that this is one of the reasons why certain Sefardic Kabbalists didn't allow people to have pictures of great Rabbis, in order not to create a statute or a mini-"G-d" out of them.

"The Ben Ish Chai (Rabbi Yosef Chayim of Baghdad, 1835-1909), in Parashat Masei, cites a Kabbalistic tradition forbidding hanging pictures of people in one’s home.  Many people, however, do not follow this practice, and permit hanging photographs. "......
http://dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=1305&txtSearch=pictures

[judeanoncapta]

The yechi statement tends to be said by those that believe he is the messiah.. The ones that think he is G-d tend to say some sentence with the word Borainu in it..

In order that nobody is misled.. And please correct me if I am wrong lulav.. Do you think he is the messiah?   It seems like you might...

Yes. I do.

The Rebbe-G-d situation suffers from two problems.

One problem is that some of these people running around are just plain nuts.

 The other problem is that there are legitimate statements by the Chassidic Rebbes that led to these nut's views, which are absolutely holy pure and true..but the second problem is that Chabad hasidic philosophy is written in a certain language. The language of hasidic and often kabbalistic terminology. The vast majority of people don't understand that language, so this can lead to many misunderstandings.

Exactly, their shouldn't have been in the first place this mess created where some step over the line completly and are in the category of idol-worshippers. I belive that this is one of the reasons why certain Sefardic Kabbalists didn't allow people to have pictures of great Rabbis, in order not to create a statute or a mini-"G-d" out of them.

"The Ben Ish Chai (Rabbi Yosef Chayim of Baghdad, 1835-1909), in Parashat Masei, cites a Kabbalistic tradition forbidding hanging pictures of people in one’s home.  Many people, however, do not follow this practice, and permit hanging photographs. "......
http://dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=1305&txtSearch=pictures

Chabad feels that pictures of the Rebbe are fine even in a shul and even if people will bow down in front of it. See the Zal in Tiferes Bachurim Yeshiva in Morristown. The pictures of five of their Rebbes in the back of the Beis Medrash so each and every Shabbat, they sing Lecha Dodi and then bow to pictures of the Rebbes.

So they think bowing to a picture of one of their Rebbes is fine and Dandy.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

WE ARE SORRY TO WASTE YOUR TIME AND OUR TIME ON THIS MOST UNHAPPY SUBJECT

 NEVERTHELESS IN ORDER TO PROTECT YOU FROM ANOTHER CHAPTER OF FALSE MESSIANISM, WE RECOMMEND THAT YOU INFORM YOURSELVES ABOUT THE TRUE NATURE OF THE LUBAVITCHER REBBE’S LEADERSHIP

 WE STRONGLY RECOMMEND THAT YOU FIRST VISIT THE PAGES OF THE EREV RAV AND THE PAGES ON FALSE MESSIAHS IN ORDER TO BETTER UNDERSTAND THE SITUATION

IT IS SO HARD WHEN SOMEONE IS NICE TO YOU

 IT IS SO HARD WHEN SOMEONE IS NICE TO YOU. IT MAKES YOU THINK THAT THEY REALLY WANT YOUR BENEFIT, AND THAT THEY CARE FOR YOU. WHEN SOMEONE TREATS YOU NICELY, YOU TEND TO LOWER YOUR DEFENSE AND YOU DON’T JUDGE THEIR MOTIVES ANYMORE.

 THIS IS THE WAY OF MISSIONARIES. THEIR GOAL IS TO CONVERT YOU TO THEIR BELIEF. HOW DO THEY ACHIEVE IT? THROUGH KINDNESS AND DECEPTION. THROUGH THEIR UNCOMMON WILLINGNESS TO HELP OTHERS, THEY GAIN THE HEARTS AND MINDS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE WHO ARE LATER CONVINCED OF THE TRUTH OF THE MISSIONARY’S BELIEF.

 ALL THE TECHNIQUES USED BY CHABAD ARE NOT NEW. THEY HAVE BEEN USED BY THE CHURCH TO CONVERT INNOCENT PEOPLE TO BELIEVE IN THE DEAD MESSIAH NAMED J-----.

 REMEMBER: A FRIEND CAN HURT YOU MORE THAN AN ENEMY

 WHEN DEALING WITH SOMEONE YOU PERCEIVE AS A FRIEND, YOU LET DOWN YOUR GUARD. WHY WOULD A FRIEND WANT TO HURT ME OR USE ME? THAT IS WHY FRIENDS CAN HARM MORE THAN ENEMIES.

 IT IS PRECISELY TORAH SCHOLARS WHO CAN DO THE MOST HARM TO JEWS

 THIS IS OBVIOUS. BECAUSE AN IGNORANT PERSON CAN NOT CONVINCE OTHER JEWS OF HIS BELIEF. IT IS HARD FOR A CHRISTIAQN MISSIONARY WHO KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT TORAH TO CONVERT A JEW TO HIS BELIEF.

 BUT SOMEONE WITH VAST KNOWLEDGE IN TORAH AND SECULAR STUDIES, SOMEONE WHO CAN MANIPULATE THE MINDS OF SIMPLE JEWS WHO LONG FOR A BETTER WORLD WITH THE COMING OF THE COMPLETE REDEMPTION AND THE REBUILDING OF THE BEIS HA MIKDOSH, THAT SOMEONE CAN EASILY MANIPULATE THE BELIEFS OF OTHERS. ADD A LITTLE SUPERFICIAL KINDNESS TO IT, AND YOU HAVE A PERFECT FORMULA FOR DECEPTION.

 REMEMBER THE SPIES? REMEMBER KORACH? REMEMBER YEROVAM BEN NEVAT? REMEMBER THE KINGS OF ISRAEL WHO DID EVIL IN HASHEM’S EYES? POWERFUL LEADERS WITH GREAT TORAH KNOWLEDGE AND YET THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR MISLEADING INNOCENT PEOPLE INTO DISOBEYING HASHEM, CAUSING DEATH AND TRAGEDY.

SHABTAI TZVI ALSO MADE A LOT OF JEWS RETURN TO TESHUVA AND THIS IS WHY RABBIS WERE LENIENT WITH HIM IN THE BEGINNING BUT THEY WERE OBVIOUSLY PROVED WRONG LATER

AT THIS POINT, YOU ARE ASKING: BUT WHY WOULD SOMEONE WANT TO BE MESSIAH WITHOUT HASHEM CONSENTING TO IT? WHAT IS THE PURPOSE?

  BUT THE BEST ANSWER MAY BE FOUND IN THE PAGES OF THE EREV RAV. THERE YOU WILL SEE THAT THE SOULS OF THE EREV RAV WILL REINCARNATE BEFORE MOSHIACH’S ARRIVAL IN ORDER TO DEVIATE THE JEWS FROM THE RIGHT PATH.

 JUST AS THE SERPENT DECEIVED CHAVA AND ADAM, AND MADE THEM DISOBEY HASHEM’S COMMAND, SO THE EREV RAV DECEIVE JEWS INTO HERESY SO THAT THEY WILL DISOBEY HASHEM’S COMMANDS.

 JUST AS THE EREV RAV MADE THE GOLDEN CALF IN THE DESERT AT SUCH GREAT HEIGHTS OF THE HOLY PEOPLE OF ISRAEL, SO A FALSE MESSIAH COMES TO CAUSE TROUBLE RIGHT BEFORE THE TIME WHEN FINALLY HASHEM’S NAME WILL BE EXALTED ON EARTH.

 WHAT BETTER WEAPON FOR THE SATAN THAN A SECT OF ORTHODOX JEWS BELIEVING IN A DEAD MESSIAH? CAN YOU IMAGINE WHEN MASHIACH BEN YOSEF ARRIVES AND FINDS A VAST GROUP OF ORTHODOX JEWS DENYING THAT HE IS THE MASHIACH?

 THUS IN ORDER TO SAVE INNOCENT JEWS FROM BEING ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE FENCE WHEN THE REAL MASHIACH COMES [MASHIACH BEN YOSEF AND MASHIACH BEN DAVID] WE HAVE COMPILED ALL THIS INFORMATION FOR YOU TO STUDY IT AND THEN TO SHARE IT WITH OTHERS, FOR IT IS YOUR DUTY AND YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE TO SAVE OTHER JEWS AS WELL.

 AND REMEMBER DO NOT BE DECEIVED BY ACTS OF KINDNESS. THAT IS NOT THE EPITOME OF KINDNESS, BECAUSE WHEN KINDNESS IS DONE FOR ULTERIOR MOTIVES, IT IS NOT CONSIDERED KINDNESS AT ALL.

AND THIS IS PRECISELY THE DEFINITION OF THE RABBIS OF THE EREV RAV AS BROUGHT IN THE ZOHAR HA KADDOSH (BERESHIT 25A): “AND ALL THEIR KINDNESS, THEY DO FOR THEMSELVES”

 OBJECTIVES:

 AFTER REVIEWING THE CONTENTS OF THESE PAGES YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO DISCERN FOR YOURSELF THAT:

 THE LUBAVITCHER REBBE HIMSELF CLAIMED TO BE THE MESSIAH SON OF DAVID

 ALL HIS FOLLOWERS, THE CHASSIDIM OF CHABAD LUBAVITCH BELIEVE THE REBBE WAS AND IS THE MESSIAH AS HE HIMSELF CLAIMED

 THE MAIN GOAL OF CHABAD LUBAVITCH IS TO SPREAD THE BELIEF THAT THE REBBE IS THE MESSIAH.

FOR THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE READY TO HEAR THIS BELIEF THEY WILL SAY IT OPENLY. FOR THOSE NOT READY YET TO HEAR THIS BELIEF, CHABAD PATIENTLY WAITS  FOR THE RIGHT TIME TO REVEAL THE “TRUTH”. MEANWHILE THEY KEEP PRACTICING “ACTS OF KINDNESS” TO GAIN THE HEARTS AND MINDS OF EVERYONE

 A GREAT TRAGEDY IS IN THE MAKING. UNLESS THE REAL MASHIACH COMES VERY SOON, MAJOR PORTIONS OF PRACTICING JEWS WILL IN FACT HAVE CREATED A NEW FORM OF CHRISTIANITY, G-D FORBID

TODAY’S RABBIS THOSE NOT BELONGING TO CHABAD YET, ARE WORRIED WITH THEIR OWN HONOR AND VERY FEW OF THEM CARE ABOUT HASHEM AND HIS TORAH [AS IS BROUGHT IN THE ZOHAR HA KADDOSH, TALMUD, BOOKS OF MUSSAR] THIS IS THE MAIN REASON WHY THE REBBE AND HIS FOLLOWERS FIND VERY LITTLE OPPOSITION TO THEIR MISSION. AS CHABAD GAINS POWER THROUGH ITS WEALTHY DONORS, MORE AND MORE NON CHABAD RABBIS ARE INTERESTED IN BECOMING THEIR FRIENDS, OR EVEN CHABADNICKS THEMSELVES

Not mine but from www.Israel613.com 

[Lubab]

WE ARE SORRY TO WASTE YOUR TIME AND OUR TIME ON THIS MOST UNHAPPY SUBJECT

 NEVERTHELESS IN ORDER TO PROTECT YOU FROM ANOTHER CHAPTER OF FALSE MESSIANISM, WE RECOMMEND THAT YOU INFORM YOURSELVES ABOUT THE TRUE NATURE OF THE LUBAVITCHER REBBE’S LEADERSHIP

 WE STRONGLY RECOMMEND THAT YOU FIRST VISIT THE PAGES OF THE EREV RAV AND THE PAGES ON FALSE MESSIAHS IN ORDER TO BETTER UNDERSTAND THE SITUATION

IT IS SO HARD WHEN SOMEONE IS NICE TO YOU

 IT IS SO HARD WHEN SOMEONE IS NICE TO YOU. IT MAKES YOU THINK THAT THEY REALLY WANT YOUR BENEFIT, AND THAT THEY CARE FOR YOU. WHEN SOMEONE TREATS YOU NICELY, YOU TEND TO LOWER YOUR DEFENSE AND YOU DON’T JUDGE THEIR MOTIVES ANYMORE.

 THIS IS THE WAY OF MISSIONARIES. THEIR GOAL IS TO CONVERT YOU TO THEIR BELIEF. HOW DO THEY ACHIEVE IT? THROUGH KINDNESS AND DECEPTION. THROUGH THEIR UNCOMMON WILLINGNESS TO HELP OTHERS, THEY GAIN THE HEARTS AND MINDS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE WHO ARE LATER CONVINCED OF THE TRUTH OF THE MISSIONARY’S BELIEF.

 ALL THE TECHNIQUES USED BY CHABAD ARE NOT NEW. THEY HAVE BEEN USED BY THE CHURCH TO CONVERT INNOCENT PEOPLE TO BELIEVE IN THE DEAD MESSIAH NAMED J-----.

 REMEMBER: A FRIEND CAN HURT YOU MORE THAN AN ENEMY

 WHEN DEALING WITH SOMEONE YOU PERCEIVE AS A FRIEND, YOU LET DOWN YOUR GUARD. WHY WOULD A FRIEND WANT TO HURT ME OR USE ME? THAT IS WHY FRIENDS CAN HARM MORE THAN ENEMIES.

 IT IS PRECISELY TORAH SCHOLARS WHO CAN DO THE MOST HARM TO JEWS

 THIS IS OBVIOUS. BECAUSE AN IGNORANT PERSON CAN NOT CONVINCE OTHER JEWS OF HIS BELIEF. IT IS HARD FOR A CHRISTIAQN MISSIONARY WHO KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT TORAH TO CONVERT A JEW TO HIS BELIEF.

 BUT SOMEONE WITH VAST KNOWLEDGE IN TORAH AND SECULAR STUDIES, SOMEONE WHO CAN MANIPULATE THE MINDS OF SIMPLE JEWS WHO LONG FOR A BETTER WORLD WITH THE COMING OF THE COMPLETE REDEMPTION AND THE REBUILDING OF THE BEIS HA MIKDOSH, THAT SOMEONE CAN EASILY MANIPULATE THE BELIEFS OF OTHERS. ADD A LITTLE SUPERFICIAL KINDNESS TO IT, AND YOU HAVE A PERFECT FORMULA FOR DECEPTION.

 REMEMBER THE SPIES? REMEMBER KORACH? REMEMBER YEROVAM BEN NEVAT? REMEMBER THE KINGS OF ISRAEL WHO DID EVIL IN HASHEM’S EYES? POWERFUL LEADERS WITH GREAT TORAH KNOWLEDGE AND YET THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR MISLEADING INNOCENT PEOPLE INTO DISOBEYING HASHEM, CAUSING DEATH AND TRAGEDY.

SHABTAI TZVI ALSO MADE A LOT OF JEWS RETURN TO TESHUVA AND THIS IS WHY RABBIS WERE LENIENT WITH HIM IN THE BEGINNING BUT THEY WERE OBVIOUSLY PROVED WRONG LATER

AT THIS POINT, YOU ARE ASKING: BUT WHY WOULD SOMEONE WANT TO BE MESSIAH WITHOUT HASHEM CONSENTING TO IT? WHAT IS THE PURPOSE?

  BUT THE BEST ANSWER MAY BE FOUND IN THE PAGES OF THE EREV RAV. THERE YOU WILL SEE THAT THE SOULS OF THE EREV RAV WILL REINCARNATE BEFORE MOSHIACH’S ARRIVAL IN ORDER TO DEVIATE THE JEWS FROM THE RIGHT PATH.

 JUST AS THE SERPENT DECEIVED CHAVA AND ADAM, AND MADE THEM DISOBEY HASHEM’S COMMAND, SO THE EREV RAV DECEIVE JEWS INTO HERESY SO THAT THEY WILL DISOBEY HASHEM’S COMMANDS.

 JUST AS THE EREV RAV MADE THE GOLDEN CALF IN THE DESERT AT SUCH GREAT HEIGHTS OF THE HOLY PEOPLE OF ISRAEL, SO A FALSE MESSIAH COMES TO CAUSE TROUBLE RIGHT BEFORE THE TIME WHEN FINALLY HASHEM’S NAME WILL BE EXALTED ON EARTH.

 WHAT BETTER WEAPON FOR THE SATAN THAN A SECT OF ORTHODOX JEWS BELIEVING IN A DEAD MESSIAH? CAN YOU IMAGINE WHEN MASHIACH BEN YOSEF ARRIVES AND FINDS A VAST GROUP OF ORTHODOX JEWS DENYING THAT HE IS THE MASHIACH?

 THUS IN ORDER TO SAVE INNOCENT JEWS FROM BEING ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE FENCE WHEN THE REAL MASHIACH COMES [MASHIACH BEN YOSEF AND MASHIACH BEN DAVID] WE HAVE COMPILED ALL THIS INFORMATION FOR YOU TO STUDY IT AND THEN TO SHARE IT WITH OTHERS, FOR IT IS YOUR DUTY AND YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE TO SAVE OTHER JEWS AS WELL.

 AND REMEMBER DO NOT BE DECEIVED BY ACTS OF KINDNESS. THAT IS NOT THE EPITOME OF KINDNESS, BECAUSE WHEN KINDNESS IS DONE FOR ULTERIOR MOTIVES, IT IS NOT CONSIDERED KINDNESS AT ALL.

AND THIS IS PRECISELY THE DEFINITION OF THE RABBIS OF THE EREV RAV AS BROUGHT IN THE ZOHAR HA KADDOSH (BERESHIT 25A): “AND ALL THEIR KINDNESS, THEY DO FOR THEMSELVES”

 OBJECTIVES:

 AFTER REVIEWING THE CONTENTS OF THESE PAGES YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO DISCERN FOR YOURSELF THAT:

 THE LUBAVITCHER REBBE HIMSELF CLAIMED TO BE THE MESSIAH SON OF DAVID

 ALL HIS FOLLOWERS, THE CHASSIDIM OF CHABAD LUBAVITCH BELIEVE THE REBBE WAS AND IS THE MESSIAH AS HE HIMSELF CLAIMED

 THE MAIN GOAL OF CHABAD LUBAVITCH IS TO SPREAD THE BELIEF THAT THE REBBE IS THE MESSIAH.

FOR THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE READY TO HEAR THIS BELIEF THEY WILL SAY IT OPENLY. FOR THOSE NOT READY YET TO HEAR THIS BELIEF, CHABAD PATIENTLY WAITS  FOR THE RIGHT TIME TO REVEAL THE “TRUTH”. MEANWHILE THEY KEEP PRACTICING “ACTS OF KINDNESS” TO GAIN THE HEARTS AND MINDS OF EVERYONE

 A GREAT TRAGEDY IS IN THE MAKING. UNLESS THE REAL MASHIACH COMES VERY SOON, MAJOR PORTIONS OF PRACTICING JEWS WILL IN FACT HAVE CREATED A NEW FORM OF CHRISTIANITY, G-D FORBID

TODAY’S RABBIS THOSE NOT BELONGING TO CHABAD YET, ARE WORRIED WITH THEIR OWN HONOR AND VERY FEW OF THEM CARE ABOUT HASHEM AND HIS TORAH [AS IS BROUGHT IN THE ZOHAR HA KADDOSH, TALMUD, BOOKS OF MUSSAR] THIS IS THE MAIN REASON WHY THE REBBE AND HIS FOLLOWERS FIND VERY LITTLE OPPOSITION TO THEIR MISSION. AS CHABAD GAINS POWER THROUGH ITS WEALTHY DONORS, MORE AND MORE NON CHABAD RABBIS ARE INTERESTED IN BECOMING THEIR FRIENDS, OR EVEN CHABADNICKS THEMSELVES

Not mine but from www.Israel613.com 

Notice. Not one Torah source quoted. Pure defamation. Nothing less, nothing more.

[q_q_]

WE ARE SORRY TO WASTE YOUR TIME AND OUR TIME ON THIS MOST UNHAPPY SUBJECT
<snip>

Lulab has not been trying to convince people that the rebbe is moshiach. He is not fooling people. And all you do is copy and paste articles.  And it looks like it took a while for him saying the rebbe was moshiach to sink in, since you did not respond so negatively initially. When I asked him and he said yes.

You are not getting anywhere with what you are doing.  If you want to debate him, then there are more sensible ways of debating. Like not copy/pasting articles in capital letters.

People are already aware that lulab holds this view, and that it is controversial.. and of course has no basis in the RAMBAM or Talmud or any classical jewish text.. Maybe, maybe, in interpreting some chabad literature..   

Not all Chabad believe the rebbe is the messiah, or anything else, other than a great rabbi. Do not demonise all of chabad. There is a question mark as to what proportion of them believe this..

Ask any rabbi on www.askmoses.com - a chabad site , they are all chabad, and my experience is that they all say the rebbe is not the messiah. I have not asked them all but I have asked many.. There is a theory that some believe it and believe it should be admitted in public. And others believe it and believe it should not be admitted in public. But what can you do.

But it is stupid to just copy/paste nonsense as you do..

Lulab has mentioned - when asked by judea - something about believing some kabbalistic thing about the rebbe being the essence of G-d in a body. And he says it is not to be taken literally.  Personally, I do not really want to know about it.. He only mentioned it when asked..

If you are trying to WARN people, then don`t bother. We know.
If you are trying to DEBATE him, then don`t bother, you are not.

Really, you are being a bit silly.. But I know you intend to warn people..

But note, do not slander the whole Chabad movement..

I personally do not like a particular chabad house near me - they are not messianic btw... I go there because they make it easy to fulfill the mitzva of hearing the megillah.  They read it many many times. At flexible times..And I appreciate that.

[DownwithIslam]

Lubab, why even waste your time answering this little cowards viscous attacks against Lubavitch. He is just agitated because the Lubavitcher Rebbeim were honest, wonderful people who were torutured in Europe because the refused to maser on other jews. Their whole lives were lived in honor and when unlimited amounts of money were placed in the hands of the last lubavitcher rebbe, he never took one penny of it. He simply handed it out to everyone who was willing to come. Lets contrast this with tzvi Ben roshells hero, Mr Ovadia yosef. All the money this man has is stolen. No party in Israel has had more people sent to prison for theft and corruption than mr yosefs shas party. The whore themselves out to traitor regimes while risking their fellow jews lives just so they can collect some more gelt. Rabbi Schneerson said that all jews were special while mr yosef thinks that if an Israeli soldier ever did an aveyra, then he deserves to die. Of course all the jews who died in the holocaust deserved it too accordint to Yosef. Lubab, realize you are talking t someone who has a one track, hateful mind. He is like Rabbi Kotler who publicly attacked Rabbi Schneerson time and time again in a way that he wouldn't even talk to a cleaning woman. I am so sick of these jews who attack everyone who is not like them. Lubab, don't even answer this ideological terrorist anymore becuse none of what he is writing is his own thoughts anyways. He is going to his hateful "torah" sites which are really anti lubavitch cesspools and merely copy and pasting. Mr yosef is not worthy of scrubbing Rabbi Schneersons floors. Their is a reason why lubavitch has people who donate huge amounts of money to them when mr yosef has to whore himself out to smolmert regimes to get some money. Anyone who goes around this forum saying that chabad chasidim who believe in the moshiach train of though need to be excommunicated is just a monster rasha who needs to be removed from our midst and certainly from this forum.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Lubab, why even waste your time answering this little cowards viscous attacks against Lubavitch. He is just agitated because the Lubavitcher Rebbeim were honest, wonderful people who were torutured in Europe because the refused to maser on other jews. Their whole lives were lived in honor and when unlimited amounts of money were placed in the hands of the last lubavitcher rebbe, he never took one penny of it. He simply handed it out to everyone who was willing to come. Lets contrast this with tzvi Ben roshells hero, Mr Ovadia yosef. All the money this man has is stolen. No party in Israel has had more people sent to prison for theft and corruption than mr yosefs shas party. The whore themselves out to traitor regimes while risking their fellow jews lives just so they can collect some more gelt. Rabbi Schneerson said that all jews were special while mr yosef thinks that if an Israeli soldier ever did an aveyra, then he deserves to die. Of course all the jews who died in the holocaust deserved it too accordint to Yosef. Lubab, realize you are talking t someone who has a one track, hateful mind. He is like Rabbi Kotler who publicly attacked Rabbi Schneerson time and time again in a way that he wouldn't even talk to a cleaning woman. I am so sick of these jews who attack everyone who is not like them. Lubab, don't even answer this ideological terrorist anymore becuse none of what he is writing is his own thoughts anyways. He is going to his hateful "torah" sites which are really anti lubavitch cesspools and merely copy and pasting. Mr yosef is not worthy of scrubbing Rabbi Schneersons floors. Their is a reason why lubavitch has people who donate huge amounts of money to them when mr yosef has to whore himself out to smolmert regimes to get some money. Anyone who goes around this forum saying that chabad chasidim who believe in the moshiach train of though need to be excommunicated is just a monster rasha who needs to be removed from our midst and certainly from this forum.

You should be banned from this forum, and also banned as a Jew. Lubab can speak for himself, stop trying to speak for me.

[DownwithIslam]

Lubab, why even waste your time answering this little cowards viscous attacks against Lubavitch. He is just agitated because the Lubavitcher Rebbeim were honest, wonderful people who were torutured in Europe because the refused to maser on other jews. Their whole lives were lived in honor and when unlimited amounts of money were placed in the hands of the last lubavitcher rebbe, he never took one penny of it. He simply handed it out to everyone who was willing to come. Lets contrast this with tzvi Ben roshells hero, Mr Ovadia yosef. All the money this man has is stolen. No party in Israel has had more people sent to prison for theft and corruption than mr yosefs shas party. The whore themselves out to traitor regimes while risking their fellow jews lives just so they can collect some more gelt. Rabbi Schneerson said that all jews were special while mr yosef thinks that if an Israeli soldier ever did an aveyra, then he deserves to die. Of course all the jews who died in the holocaust deserved it too accordint to Yosef. Lubab, realize you are talking t someone who has a one track, hateful mind. He is like Rabbi Kotler who publicly attacked Rabbi Schneerson time and time again in a way that he wouldn't even talk to a cleaning woman. I am so sick of these jews who attack everyone who is not like them. Lubab, don't even answer this ideological terrorist anymore becuse none of what he is writing is his own thoughts anyways. He is going to his hateful "torah" sites which are really anti lubavitch cesspools and merely copy and pasting. Mr yosef is not worthy of scrubbing Rabbi Schneersons floors. Their is a reason why lubavitch has people who donate huge amounts of money to them when mr yosef has to whore himself out to smolmert regimes to get some money. Anyone who goes around this forum saying that chabad chasidim who believe in the moshiach train of though need to be excommunicated is just a monster rasha who needs to be removed from our midst and certainly from this forum.

You should be banned from this forum, and also banned as a Jew. Lubab can speak for himself, stop trying to speak for me.

Look at the above comment Tzvi Ben Roshel made about me. I challenge anyone to deny that his actions are vile.

[Dominater96]

Hacham Ovadia Yosef Shlita
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1270038.stm

http://www.ety.com/HRP/jewishstudies/witofyosef.htm -notice this line-

"Rabbi Yosef, the former Sephardi Chief Rabbi, who recedntly said that Arabs were snakes and should be annihilated, told his followers that he had a dream on Friday.

Rabbi Ben-Zion Mutzafi, one of his followers, said that Rabbi Yosef had told him that in his dream "at the Western Wall plaza and in all of Jerusalem there were only Jews ... There were no non-Jewish foreigners there. They had already been expelled [before the coming of the Messiah]".

Hacham Ovadia has stated that whenever Jerusalem is on the table in negotiations, Shas should pull out immediatly. He isnt all caught up in the politics. People tell him what they want him to hear. Hacham Ovadia is learning torah, and writing about 18 hours a day know, and isnt looking at the politics. It is very possible people are lieing to him.

http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2008/02/is-rabbi-ovadia-yosef-being-told-truth.html

Rabbi Mazuz who is a huge talmid hacham, and someone whom me and people I am friendly with have spoken to, says that Hacham Ovadia is being lied to.

[q_q_]

Ovadia yosef says one thing one day, and another thing the next. He is not a fool. He cannot be trusted.

I remember when he saying saying he should give land, because to acheive peace, overrules everything.  The flaw in what he said was obvious. 

Some time later he said he was against giving land. And around that time, since he was made to look a fool, or leftist, he was angry. So he said the arabs are snakes.

He has also said that holocaust victims (largely ashkenazi) that were murdered, died for sins they committed in a previous lifetime.

And I did read that he is in favour of secret negotiations with arabs. But not public negotiations.   He is very bad.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Ovadia yosef says one thing one day, and another thing the next. He is not a fool. He cannot be trusted.

I remember when he saying saying he should give land, because to acheive peace, overrules everything.  The flaw in what he said was obvious. 

Some time later he said he was against giving land. And around that time, since he was made to look a fool, or leftist, he was angry. So he said the arabs are snakes.

He has also said that holocaust victims (largely ashkenazi) that were murdered, died for sins they committed in a previous lifetime.

And I did read that he is in favour of secret negotiations with arabs. But not public negotiations.   He is very bad.

Actually their is no contradiction. If giving away land will produce peace, their is no problem - According to Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, BUT since it doesn't then we dont give away land.
 Also I remember that the Rav cursed Sharon 1 month before, where all the media again made fun of him, but it came true. He said something like " he will fall (be be struck) and not get up".