can a kohen be the messiah?

[q_q_]

Black Hats aren't from Sinai, but a double covering is.  And a black hat is what most Ashkenazim chose to be their second covering.

Well, I am not arguing AGAINST black hats. Or even that they should be changed.  Anyhow, you suggest there that a black hat can be changed for something else.  That supports my point.

In contrast, we cannot change Ashkenazi or Sefaradi pronounciation for Ivrit pronounciation.

That is my point.

[nikmatdam]

not moshiach ben david... who has to descend from david hamelech on his father's side which is from shevet yehudah...

moshiach ben yosef on the otherhand is a machloket... some argue because of the sinning of shevet ephraim and menashe before the exile of the 10 tribes they lost their oppot. historically to fulfill yosef's role... and a pasuk from psalms... near the end of psalm 78 i think... seems to support that contention... in which case a kohen like rav meir kahane could have been the mby we were waiting for...

there are others who argue no... only that generation lost that right but ultimately mby will descend as does mbd from yehudah... from yosef hatzadik... hope that helps... nik. out...

[OdKahaneChai]

Real Hebrew is Sfardic Hebrew. Do you really think they had Yiddish pronunciations in The Land of Israel, which is a Middle Eastern country?

How do you know?  Were you there?

The fact is that no one can tell anyone else who's following his legitimate customs that his Hebrew is wrong.

Two Sfardim who had become Lubavitch once came to the Rebbe, ZY"A, and asked if they should change their pronunciation of Loshon Kodesh to the Ashkenazic one, as that is what is used by virtually all of Lubavitch.

The Rebbe told them, "No.  You should continue the customs of your fathers."

[q_q_]

Real Hebrew is Sfardic Hebrew. Do you really think they had Yiddish pronunciations in The Land of Israel, which is a Middle Eastern country? The Yiddish pronunciation is a Germanic influence.

Real Hebrew has a gutural ayin and chet and a tet and kuf that most Ashkenazim don't know how to say. I wouldn't go as far to say that a vav is a w and that a gimel without a dagesh is a gh like in Arabic that sounds like a French r. But we have people on this forum that do think that.

What stupidity.. Ashkenazi pronounciation is not yiddish pronounciation.

Yaakuv and Suhkus are yiddish equivalents of the hebrew.
YaaKove and SueKose are ashkenazi

there is no such thing as "yiddish pronounciation", except of yiddish. There are yiddish transliterations of hebrew words, as mentioned. Just like in english there is Joel(Yoel) and Joseph(Yosef).  But yiddish transliterations are not ashkenazi pronounciation of hebrew. As demonstrated

Sefaradi pronounciation pronounces the 2 Tafs, with and without a dot, the same. Certainly wrong.

Ashkenazi pronounciation at least preserved a distinction Taf, Saf (though the S is also made by the letter Sin)

Ashkenazi pronounciation has its problems . But so does Sefaradi.  Sefaradim preserved the consonants a bit better..(e.g. a distinction between alef and ayin, kaf and kuf). Though it did not preserve it for Taf.  And neither ashkenazi or Sefaradi managed to get all 6 of the BGDKFT letters distinguished.

The Teimani Yemenites do distinguish them all.

Sure, ashkenazi pronounciation may have been influenced by yiddish.. The Cholem vowel got particularly varied.  But the Sefaradi pronounciation would probably have been influenced by arabic.(this may not be obvious given the similarities between hebrew and arabic). 

When a Sefaradi davens, it does sound quite similar to the noise that comes out of a mosque.  At the end of the day though, one should not be prejudice against arabic sounding voices! It is hebrew, and he probably hates arabs too!


Ivrit is not Sefaradi hebrew. Ivrit does not distinguish the consonants like ayin aleph, kuf kaf, as the Sefaradim do. (and not doing so is not good)..  And the kamatz is reduced to one sound, and completely the same as patach. Another mistake.

[q_q_]

All ashkenazim (to my knowledge) pronounce kamatz like the o in boris.  This is not some "custom". This is ancient tradition.  This is no reason to throw away divine tradition and exchange it for a man made pronounciation. What kind of nonsense are you talking.. Where is your religious belief that we have a tradition from sinai.

I thought they say it's like an aw sound. Boris is pronounced like a vav without a dot on top.

Just like the so-called gh sound is rrrrrrr (no g).

if aw is meant to be like the o in boris, then yes, it is pronounced like that!

I have seen it written it written that the "aw" sound is "aw" as in father. I see that is not far off. But from what I have heard, it is like the o in boris. Maybe that is what they mean anyway. "father" is a bad example, father is an arrr sound far thur.

In ashkenazi, The Cholem (vav with dot "on top" ), is OHHHHHHHH as in Go, No.
In ashkenazi the Shuruk, (vav with dot "in middle"), is oooooooo like boo, poo, moo, You.


note- vav with dot on top, I always write the dot slightly to the left. Similarly, the vav with dot in the middle, the dot is on the left side. Hebrew does of course go right to left!


I cannot recall a vav with no mark(vowel) at all.  A Vav without a dot on top, could have one in the middle. Or underneath. If underneath, it becomes a vowel-letter,  V (or as JNC has it, W). But that is nothing like the o in boris.  Sefaradim pronounce their Cholem like the o in boris, a vav -WITH - a dot on top. If in the middle it is ooo is in boo. That is not like Boris. I have no idea what you mean when you say vav with no dot on top is like o in boris. That is not the case in ashkenazi or Sefaradi.

[shimon]

Real Hebrew is Sfardic Hebrew. Do you really think they had Yiddish pronunciations in The Land of Israel, which is a Middle Eastern country? The Yiddish pronunciation is a Germanic influence.

Real Hebrew has a gutural ayin and chet and a tet and kuf that most Ashkenazim don't know how to say. I wouldn't go as far to say that a vav is a w and that a gimel without a dagesh is a gh like in Arabic that sounds like a French r. But we have people on this forum that do think that.

What stupidity.. Ashkenazi pronounciation is not yiddish pronounciation.

Yaakuv and Suhkus are yiddish equivalents of the hebrew.
YaaKove and SueKose are ashkenazi

there is no such thing as "yiddish pronounciation", except of yiddish. There are yiddish transliterations of hebrew words, as mentioned. Just like in english there is Joel(Yoel) and Joseph(Yosef).  But yiddish transliterations are not ashkenazi pronounciation of hebrew. As demonstrated

Sefaradi pronounciation pronounces the 2 Tafs, with and without a dot, the same. Certainly wrong.

Ashkenazi pronounciation at least preserved a distinction Taf, Saf (though the S is also made by the letter Sin)

Ashkenazi pronounciation has its problems . But so does Sefaradi.  Sefaradim preserved the consonants a bit better..(e.g. a distinction between alef and ayin, kaf and kuf). Though it did not preserve it for Taf.  And neither ashkenazi or Sefaradi managed to get all 6 of the BGDKFT letters distinguished.

The Teimani Yemenites do distinguish them all.

Sure, ashkenazi pronounciation may have been influenced by yiddish.. The Cholem vowel got particularly varied.  But the Sefaradi pronounciation would probably have been influenced by arabic.(this may not be obvious given the similarities between hebrew and arabic). 

When a Sefaradi davens, it does sound quite simiilar to the nobise that comes out of a mosque.  At the end of the day though, one should not be prejudice against arabic sounding voices! It is hebrew, and he probably hates arabs too!


Ivrit is not Sefaradi hebrew. Ivrit does not distinguish the consonants like ayin aleph, kuf kaf, as the Sefaradim do. (and not doing so is not good)..  And the kamatz is reduced to one sound, and completely the same as patach. Another mistake.

  some sefardim pronounce a taf as a th which is the ancient hebrew way. but the ashkenaz s is closer then the sefardi t.

[OdKahaneChai]

Real Hebrew is Sfardic Hebrew. Do you really think they had Yiddish pronunciations in The Land of Israel, which is a Middle Eastern country? The Yiddish pronunciation is a Germanic influence.

Real Hebrew has a gutural ayin and chet and a tet and kuf that most Ashkenazim don't know how to say. I wouldn't go as far to say that a vav is a w and that a gimel without a dagesh is a gh like in Arabic that sounds like a French r. But we have people on this forum that do think that.

What stupidity.. Ashkenazi pronounciation is not yiddish pronounciation.

Yaakuv and Suhkus are yiddish equivalents of the hebrew.
YaaKove and SueKose are ashkenazi

there is no such thing as "yiddish pronounciation", except of yiddish. There are yiddish transliterations of hebrew words, as mentioned. Just like in english there is Joel(Yoel) and Joseph(Yosef).  But yiddish transliterations are not ashkenazi pronounciation of hebrew. As demonstrated

Sefaradi pronounciation pronounces the 2 Tafs, with and without a dot, the same. Certainly wrong.

Ashkenazi pronounciation at least preserved a distinction Taf, Saf (though the S is also made by the letter Sin)

Ashkenazi pronounciation has its problems . But so does Sefaradi.  Sefaradim preserved the consonants a bit better..(e.g. a distinction between alef and ayin, kaf and kuf). Though it did not preserve it for Taf.  And neither ashkenazi or Sefaradi managed to get all 6 of the BGDKFT letters distinguished.

The Teimani Yemenites do distinguish them all.

Sure, ashkenazi pronounciation may have been influenced by yiddish.. The Cholem vowel got particularly varied.  But the Sefaradi pronounciation would probably have been influenced by arabic.(this may not be obvious given the similarities between hebrew and arabic). 

When a Sefaradi davens, it does sound quite simiilar to the nobise that comes out of a mosque.  At the end of the day though, one should not be prejudice against arabic sounding voices! It is hebrew, and he probably hates arabs too!


Ivrit is not Sefaradi hebrew. Ivrit does not distinguish the consonants like ayin aleph, kuf kaf, as the Sefaradim do. (and not doing so is not good)..  And the kamatz is reduced to one sound, and completely the same as patach. Another mistake.

  some Sefaradim pronounce a taf as a th which is the ancient hebrew way. but the ashkenaz s is closer then the Sefaradi t.

Shimon, anyone who really thinks they know how Loshon Kodesh was spoken in Ancient Israel is fooling himself.

[q_q_]

some Sefaradim pronounce a taf as a th which is the ancient hebrew way. but the ashkenaz s is closer then the Sefaradi t.

that has been said. What is your point?

You were making stupid comments that saying "Dovid" is wrong.   

[shimon]

Real Hebrew is Sfardic Hebrew. Do you really think they had Yiddish pronunciations in The Land of Israel, which is a Middle Eastern country? The Yiddish pronunciation is a Germanic influence.

Real Hebrew has a gutural ayin and chet and a tet and kuf that most Ashkenazim don't know how to say. I wouldn't go as far to say that a vav is a w and that a gimel without a dagesh is a gh like in Arabic that sounds like a French r. But we have people on this forum that do think that.

What stupidity.. Ashkenazi pronounciation is not yiddish pronounciation.

Yaakuv and Suhkus are yiddish equivalents of the hebrew.
YaaKove and SueKose are ashkenazi

there is no such thing as "yiddish pronounciation", except of yiddish. There are yiddish transliterations of hebrew words, as mentioned. Just like in english there is Joel(Yoel) and Joseph(Yosef).  But yiddish transliterations are not ashkenazi pronounciation of hebrew. As demonstrated

Sefaradi pronounciation pronounces the 2 Tafs, with and without a dot, the same. Certainly wrong.

Ashkenazi pronounciation at least preserved a distinction Taf, Saf (though the S is also made by the letter Sin)

Ashkenazi pronounciation has its problems . But so does Sefaradi.  Sefaradim preserved the consonants a bit better..(e.g. a distinction between alef and ayin, kaf and kuf). Though it did not preserve it for Taf.  And neither ashkenazi or Sefaradi managed to get all 6 of the BGDKFT letters distinguished.

The Teimani Yemenites do distinguish them all.

Sure, ashkenazi pronounciation may have been influenced by yiddish.. The Cholem vowel got particularly varied.  But the Sefaradi pronounciation would probably have been influenced by arabic.(this may not be obvious given the similarities between hebrew and arabic). 

When a Sefaradi davens, it does sound quite simiilar to the nobise that comes out of a mosque.  At the end of the day though, one should not be prejudice against arabic sounding voices! It is hebrew, and he probably hates arabs too!


Ivrit is not Sefaradi hebrew. Ivrit does not distinguish the consonants like ayin aleph, kuf kaf, as the Sefaradim do. (and not doing so is not good)..  And the kamatz is reduced to one sound, and completely the same as patach. Another mistake.

  some Sefaradim pronounce a taf as a th which is the ancient hebrew way. but the ashkenaz s is closer then the Sefaradi t.

Shimon, anyone who really thinks they know how Loshon Kodesh was spoken in Ancient Israel is fooling himself.

its actually not foolish defintely any profesor studying ancient semitic languages can teach you the real way to pronounce hebrew. and im sure there a few rabbis who know

[q_q_]

its actually not foolish defintely any profesor studying ancient semitic languages can teach you the real way to pronounce hebrew. and im sure there a few rabbis who know

putting aside the sillyness of your statement.
 
what professors (if any) taught you?
and what rabbis (if any)?

maybe we can all benefit from what *THEY THINK* and agree by clear proofs, is "the way"