Not to be confused with people linking the reform/conservative movement to the shabbetai tzvi who believed in being righteous through sin. There is some basis to that too.. I have read rabbi antelman's "to eliminate the opiate" vol 1 and 2, and I have checked his references, largely "the messianic idea in judaism" by gershom scholem. But really you don't need to speculate or go into that..
Reform, based on what the reform leaders have said themselves. Is just not worth the time of day.
This from David Friedlander - wikipedia
" Friedländer's open letter (Sendschreiben) "in the name of some Jewish heads of families," stated that Jews would be ready to undergo "dry baptism": join the Lutheran Church on the basis of shared moral values if they were not required to believe in the divinity of Jesus and might evade certain Christian ceremonies.
"
And it mentions moses mendellsohn.. Rabbi antelman published his ordination certificate which has sabbeatean codewords.. very odd.
And sabbeteans believed in being righteous through sin. some still exist today (donmeh west website)
But you can see enough just looking at todays reform/liberal/conservative ministers.. As I said, as examples. neuberger , jonathan romain, e.t.c.
They are not sinister sabbateans.. Just idiots, cultural jews with some weak attachment to being jewish.
I've heard a lot and read a lot about this Rabbi Antelman. Do you think he is right about what he says? Was it really a Sabbatean cult? I haven't read the books yet but I would like to look into it. I'm just wondering if he is overly speculative or if he really has solid evidence on his general thesis that the beginnings of Reform and cons movements were sabbatean. I've heard him talk on the israel national radio program and he sounded absolutely convinced of his conclusions... Just wondering what you thought about the quality of evidence.
Alot of his book is guilt by association.. He finds some connections or allegations of connections between a few leading reform ministers, and the sabbatean movement.
Nothing proving that -this was the beginning of the reform/conservative/liberal movement.
Here are some examples.
Regarding a "Rabbi" Weiss for example.. he mentions a book written by a woman that claims he had sex with her over a table, and said some verse. Rabbi antelman - who often consulted with one , maybe two professors that were experts on sabbeteans.. comments that she was not aware but that is a verse said by sabbeteans.. (sabbeans have their own anti torah theology that takes some crazy interpretations of verses in tenach to support them)
He quote gershom scholem`s findings, of some letters, that show that a leading reform/liberal/conservative minister is from a sabbetean family (may have been zecharia frankel)
I actually read an article in a left wing anti religious jewish british paper - "the jewish chronicle".. in an article in the JC , 24th jan 2008.
an article called "The Messiah Of Turkey" Revealing the life and
legacy of shabbetai sevi.
The article discusses the research of mancunian(born in manchester,
britain) writer Aubrey Ross.
Aubrey Ross is quoted in that article as writing or saying "there is even a sabbatean reform movement, and I`ve met 2 sabbateans in london, one of whom is a reform rabbi".
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I mentioned already about moses mendellesohn (not a reform jew himself), but one of the first to teach an assimilated judaism, that undermined belief.. His children converted out of judaism, to christianity.
So.. he has hit on something..
Rabbi antelman also quoted a book, I could not get hold of.. Titled something like "The golden chain".. Which seems to discuss geneologies.
He goes way back,before Karl Marx..
And he shows that you had lots of rabbis. Great rabbis, fighting the sabbetean movement.. Rabbis like Rabbi Yaakov Emden, and others. And then you had sabbetean families. A sabbatean married into that rabbinical family, and it split off...
One side assimilated , and came up with Karl Marx.
The other side stayed true to torah and battling evil.. Rabbi Antelman said that Rabbi Kahane is a descendent of this side of it.. The good side.
Some things he mentions are very odd, and does not prove. He said that Hitler was born on purim / 12 months after purim - to the day..(the significance being that sabbateans would have an orgy on purim, and if you count 3 months to conceive, then 9 months pregnancy, that is 12 months - so purim again). It was something like that anyway.
I emailed rabbi antelman for evidence of the date he mentioned for Hitler`s birth. He said he found Hitler`s birth records in a jewish court, (rabbi antelman says Hitler had a jewish ancestor , I think on his father`s side) He said he didn`t make a copy of the birth records, but another witness to the records is Rabbi (Dubovick?) of Beitar.
So as you can see..
Some of the things he says are well documented.
Some are not well documented.
But even the well documented things just show connections here and there.
No doubt he takes it for granted that the numerous number of connections is evidence of something bigger..
The JC article about the sabbetean movement is big news .. That came years after he published his vol 2. So he clearly was on to something with the many connections he found with sabbeanism and reform leaders. But it`s not firm proof..
His contents is different to chamish, of course. Style is alot better than Chamish`s. is that he has good references, and his book is organised.. Though he does not cover anywhere near as much ground as Chamish.. (and Chamish does document the rabin thing fine)..
By the way..
Chamish , who mentioned how bad the original secular zionists were (prior to revisionist zionists like jabotinsky)
chamish mentions
this book.. Sabbatean Messianism as Proto Secularism .... by this rabbi prof avrum ehrlich. Here is his site discussing his book
http://www.avrumehrlich.net/sabbatean.htm"
And apparently that documents something things better than rabbi antelman`s. Check this out
It is curious that Israel’s first and second Prime Ministers, David Ben Gurion and Moshe Sharett and her second president Yitzchak Ben Zvi had lived and studied in Istanbul and embraced the concept “lehitatmen”, Hebrew for “to become an Ottoman”. Ben Zvi is alleged by some to be descendent of a Sabbatean family . Sharett served in the Ottoman army in WW1. Ben Gurion gave up Russian citizenship for Ottoman citizenship, something many others in Eretz Yisrael were afraid to do. Israeli Presidents Ben Zvi, Zalman Shazar and to a lesser degree Yitzchak Navon became students of Ottomanism. The first two undertook research and wrote important works on Sabbateanism, indicating that the subject touched a nerve with their own identities as Jews who were deeply attached to their traditions, possessing messianic – Zionist aspirations but not religiously observant.
"
So yeah.. there are things going on here.. numerous connections.. very suspicious.
You won`t get signed statements from these people anyway.. And there isn`t firm proof. Just connections.
Don`t throw the evidence out because it is just "connections".. But don`t treat it like solid proof either.
It`s certainly things to bare in mind..
And of course, Ben Gurion is not a hero who if you go behind the scenes becomes a villain. It is well known that in the Altalena incident , he ordered yitzchak rabin to fire at menachem begin and begin`s men, the irgun. Destroyed hte ship too.. Which contained numerous weapons that would have belped in the 1948 war. He just wanted his army the haganah(now known as the IDF), to the run the show, and not the irgun. And he was more than willing to kill jews.
And as mentioned.. you don`t need to go behind the scenes to find out how bad reform/conservative/liberal are.. just listen to their spokesman.. saying they don`t believe in a personal G-d you can pray to.
You won`t convince a skeptic with this sabbatean evidence.. it is scatty and disconnected.. You may not convince yourself either, because the picture is SO incomplete and there is no firm proof or disproof of any big conclusion.. But as I said.. the evidence(there aren`re really any conclusions) are certainly worth baring in mind, and it is cause for suspicion. Even if it is not convincing.
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