Author Topic: Pathetic speech my dumb Satmur ghetto Rabbi gave  (Read 16823 times)

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Offline OdKahaneChai

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Re: Pathetic speech my dumb Satmur ghetto Rabbi gave
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2008, 12:07:40 PM »
I think he would agree with me that he is not saying we can identify amalek.

He is criticising your style .. of mixing psak and drash or midrash, like it is one thing.

I think it is bad.. (mixing midrash with psak implies taking midrash literally, and also, not taking into account that sometimes midrashim can disagree). It is very unacademic, messy thinking. People reading what you write/say will end up mixing up sources and have no textual basis, and that will happen to you too if it hasn`t already.
When did I bring up a Midrash?

And if you claim that this "midrash" is not true, and that we CAN'T identify Amalek today, then how exactly are we supposed to fulfill the Mitzvah?  Once again, I'm quite curious...

i said it was bad to mix pshat and drash or midrash.
meaning.
pshat and (drash or midrash)
you mixed pshat and drash.

you can forget the word midrash.

When and how we fulfill or do not fulfill the mizva of killing amalek, is not the point.
You know very well that WHEN we cannot identify them, we cannot fulfill the mitzva of killing them.
Just as we have mitzot that only be fulfilled in certain conditions. And without those conditions, we cannot fulfill it

Really.. if logic is too much for you then forget it.
And if something else is stopping you from getting it, then admit it and see a psychiatrist.

If you are still curious as to how we should fulfill the mitzva then don`t worry about it.. You don`t at the moment.  And If we ever identify amalek, I`ll make sure you are informed.  I`ll send you a private message on the JTF forum, bearing the good news.
Ok, so it seems that we have a situation here where I'm Machmer, and you're Mekel.  And that's fine.  But don't tell me that I'm wrong.

machmir-strict,    mekel-lenient

It is not a matter of being strict or lenient..

It is a matter of you taking a drash literally.

You seem to think we are fulfilling the mitzva(obligation) of killing amalek, by studying torah or "removing doubts".   

Do you think that torah study is still the way to fulfill the obligation to kill amalek even after we identify them? I am sure you would not claim that.. That would be to the left of lenient!
You JUST told me that we can't identify them!  ::)

One does not deal with terrorists; one does not bargain with terrorists; one kills terrorists.
- Rabbi Meir Kahane ZT"L, HY"D

Offline q_q_

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Re: Pathetic speech my dumb Satmur ghetto Rabbi gave
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2008, 07:25:02 PM »
I think he would agree with me that he is not saying we can identify amalek.

He is criticising your style .. of mixing psak and drash or midrash, like it is one thing.

I think it is bad.. (mixing midrash with psak implies taking midrash literally, and also, not taking into account that sometimes midrashim can disagree). It is very unacademic, messy thinking. People reading what you write/say will end up mixing up sources and have no textual basis, and that will happen to you too if it hasn`t already.
When did I bring up a Midrash?

And if you claim that this "midrash" is not true, and that we CAN'T identify Amalek today, then how exactly are we supposed to fulfill the Mitzvah?  Once again, I'm quite curious...

i said it was bad to mix pshat and drash or midrash.
meaning.
pshat and (drash or midrash)
you mixed pshat and drash.

you can forget the word midrash.

When and how we fulfill or do not fulfill the mizva of killing amalek, is not the point.
You know very well that WHEN we cannot identify them, we cannot fulfill the mitzva of killing them.
Just as we have mitzot that only be fulfilled in certain conditions. And without those conditions, we cannot fulfill it

Really.. if logic is too much for you then forget it.
And if something else is stopping you from getting it, then admit it and see a psychiatrist.

If you are still curious as to how we should fulfill the mitzva then don`t worry about it.. You don`t at the moment.  And If we ever identify amalek, I`ll make sure you are informed.  I`ll send you a private message on the JTF forum, bearing the good news.
Ok, so it seems that we have a situation here where I'm Machmer, and you're Mekel.  And that's fine.  But don't tell me that I'm wrong.

machmir-strict,    mekel-lenient

It is not a matter of being strict or lenient..

It is a matter of you taking a drash literally.

You seem to think we are fulfilling the mitzva(obligation) of killing amalek, by studying torah or "removing doubts".   

Do you think that torah study is still the way to fulfill the obligation to kill amalek even after we identify them? I am sure you would not claim that.. That would be to the left of lenient!
You JUST told me that we can't identify them!  ::)

When A happens, B happens.

Does that mean A happened?






Offline OdKahaneChai

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Re: Pathetic speech my dumb Satmur ghetto Rabbi gave
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2008, 11:39:41 PM »
I think he would agree with me that he is not saying we can identify amalek.

He is criticising your style .. of mixing psak and drash or midrash, like it is one thing.

I think it is bad.. (mixing midrash with psak implies taking midrash literally, and also, not taking into account that sometimes midrashim can disagree). It is very unacademic, messy thinking. People reading what you write/say will end up mixing up sources and have no textual basis, and that will happen to you too if it hasn`t already.
When did I bring up a Midrash?

And if you claim that this "midrash" is not true, and that we CAN'T identify Amalek today, then how exactly are we supposed to fulfill the Mitzvah?  Once again, I'm quite curious...

i said it was bad to mix pshat and drash or midrash.
meaning.
pshat and (drash or midrash)
you mixed pshat and drash.

you can forget the word midrash.

When and how we fulfill or do not fulfill the mizva of killing amalek, is not the point.
You know very well that WHEN we cannot identify them, we cannot fulfill the mitzva of killing them.
Just as we have mitzot that only be fulfilled in certain conditions. And without those conditions, we cannot fulfill it

Really.. if logic is too much for you then forget it.
And if something else is stopping you from getting it, then admit it and see a psychiatrist.

If you are still curious as to how we should fulfill the mitzva then don`t worry about it.. You don`t at the moment.  And If we ever identify amalek, I`ll make sure you are informed.  I`ll send you a private message on the JTF forum, bearing the good news.
Ok, so it seems that we have a situation here where I'm Machmer, and you're Mekel.  And that's fine.  But don't tell me that I'm wrong.

machmir-strict,    mekel-lenient

It is not a matter of being strict or lenient..

It is a matter of you taking a drash literally.

You seem to think we are fulfilling the mitzva(obligation) of killing amalek, by studying torah or "removing doubts".   

Do you think that torah study is still the way to fulfill the obligation to kill amalek even after we identify them? I am sure you would not claim that.. That would be to the left of lenient!
You JUST told me that we can't identify them!  ::)

When A happens, B happens.

Does that mean A happened?
What?

One does not deal with terrorists; one does not bargain with terrorists; one kills terrorists.
- Rabbi Meir Kahane ZT"L, HY"D

Offline q_q_

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Re: Pathetic speech my dumb Satmur ghetto Rabbi gave
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2008, 12:03:22 PM »
When A happens, B happens.

Does that mean A happened?
What?
What What? Where? How?  Did A happen?

« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 12:06:51 PM by q_q_ »

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: Pathetic speech my dumb Satmur ghetto Rabbi gave
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2008, 05:54:28 PM »
Now you are better able to "switch places" with the European Labor Zionists, and perhaps better understand their frustration which grew into contempt for their religious brethren who refused to even consider retaking Eretz Yisrael by force of arms; let alone consider physically moving there to live.

In the 1920's-1930's the European rabbis for the most part counseled and advised their co-religionists to "stay put", "study Torah", "don't fight back", and everything would be fine.

Don't misunderstand my comments above...I'm not excusing the behavior of the Labor Zionists...just pointing out that "when the chips were down" they had to go it alone and not count on Torah miracles to save European Jewry.


Offline q_q_

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Re: Pathetic speech my dumb Satmur ghetto Rabbi gave
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2008, 11:22:41 PM »
Now you are better able to "switch places" with the European Labor Zionists, and perhaps better understand their frustration which grew into contempt for their religious brethren who refused to even consider retaking Eretz Yisrael by force of arms; let alone consider physically moving there to live.

In the 1920's-1930's the European rabbis for the most part counseled and advised their co-religionists to "stay put", "study Torah", "don't fight back", and everything would be fine.

Don't misunderstand my comments above...I'm not excusing the behavior of the Labor Zionists...just pointing out that "when the chips were down" they had to go it alone and not count on Torah miracles to save European Jewry.



They didn`t want religious jews at all..

From the little I have heard.. The religious jews prior to 1948 were turned away when there were immigration limits. And the arabic jews that came later, they were separated from their parents and put on secular kibbutzim.

The original secular zionists were only too happy the religious were staying put and dying. The revisionist secular zionists, like jabotinsky, wanted them to come.

And look what they did with Kahane.  They don`t want militant religious jews, or passive religious jews. They want no religious jews.

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Pathetic speech my dumb Satmur ghetto Rabbi gave
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2008, 11:31:59 PM »
They want Power, no matter what. If it means keeping religious Jews out, then they will. If it means brining in russian amalikites then they will do it. By the way I kinda heard that the doors between Israel and Russia are more open, anyone can come without a visa, or something to that affect. Maybe even get earier citizenship (G-d forbid).
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: Pathetic speech my dumb Satmur ghetto Rabbi gave
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2008, 11:37:41 PM »
"...anyone can come without a visa, or something to that affect..."

Cool!

Chaim can fly to Moscow, and from there to Tel-Aviv!

Or...to Ukraine dressed as a Lubavitcher, and then to Tel-Aviv!


Offline q_q_

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Re: Pathetic speech my dumb Satmur ghetto Rabbi gave
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2008, 11:49:27 PM »
"...anyone can come without a visa, or something to that affect..."

Cool!

Chaim can fly to Moscow, and from there to Tel-Aviv!

Or...to Ukraine dressed as a Lubavitcher, and then to Tel-Aviv!



Satmar would be a better disguise

Offline OdKahaneChai

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Re: Pathetic speech my dumb Satmur ghetto Rabbi gave
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2008, 10:46:24 AM »
"...anyone can come without a visa, or something to that affect..."

Cool!

Chaim can fly to Moscow, and from there to Tel-Aviv!

Or...to Ukraine dressed as a Lubavitcher, and then to Tel-Aviv!


Satmar would be a better disguise
The Israeli government hates all Chassidim, it wouldn't make a difference.

One does not deal with terrorists; one does not bargain with terrorists; one kills terrorists.
- Rabbi Meir Kahane ZT"L, HY"D

Offline q_q_

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Re: Pathetic speech my dumb Satmur ghetto Rabbi gave
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2008, 11:19:40 AM »
"...anyone can come without a visa, or something to that affect..."

Cool!

Chaim can fly to Moscow, and from there to Tel-Aviv!

Or...to Ukraine dressed as a Lubavitcher, and then to Tel-Aviv!


Satmar would be a better disguise
The Israeli government hates all Chassidim, it wouldn't make a difference.

The idea of chaim up as a satmar was not so they would like him.
It is because it is a good disguise. Because satmar is anti zionist.
 
I was going to say he should dress up as neturei karta! But that wouldn`t work - too much media attention!



Offline judeanoncapta

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Re: Pathetic speech my dumb Satmur ghetto Rabbi gave
« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2008, 05:46:24 PM »
   I would like to see all Satmar Rabbis stripped of their Rabinical ordination by a Bait Din. Hopefully the Israeli government does not recognize Satanmar ordination. I think they still don't recognize non-orthodox Rabbis from the Reform and Conservative, but am not 100% sure.
Chas V'Sholom!  The Satmar Rebbe, was one of the Greatest Talmidei Chochomim to ever live, and even though I have some slight halachic differences with them, they are for the most part great Chossidim and Great Talmidei Chochomim.

Note: Correction made by TBOT. The Satmar Rebbe is a YS"Z and not a ZTVK"L.

You have obviously not read either of his major seforim. Al HaGeulah V'Al HaTemura or VaYoel Moshe.

Anyone who has read those seforim could never say that he was one of the Greatest Talmidei Chochomim to ever live. His halakhic logic was goal-based and deeply flawed.
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Offline judeanoncapta

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Re: Pathetic speech my dumb Satmur ghetto Rabbi gave
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2008, 05:50:46 PM »
Now you are better able to "switch places" with the European Labor Zionists, and perhaps better understand their frustration which grew into contempt for their religious brethren who refused to even consider retaking Eretz Yisrael by force of arms; let alone consider physically moving there to live.

In the 1920's-1930's the European rabbis for the most part counseled and advised their co-religionists to "stay put", "study Torah", "don't fight back", and everything would be fine.

Don't misunderstand my comments above...I'm not excusing the behavior of the Labor Zionists...just pointing out that "when the chips were down" they had to go it alone and not count on Torah miracles to save European Jewry.



You make a good point. In fact, one of the greatest tests of faiths for religious holocaust survivors was dealing with the fact that every good loyal frum Jew who listened to the Gedolim, and therefore stayed in Europe, was killed while the most non religious anti-Torah people ignored the counsel of the Gedolim, moved to Israel or America and lived.
Post questions here for the ASK JUDEA TORAH SHOW


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Offline kahaneloyalist

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Re: Pathetic speech my dumb Satmur ghetto Rabbi gave
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2008, 05:56:17 PM »
Lets not forget Rav Kook zt'l was a great proponent of fighitng back, and it was his talmud David Raziel who led the Irgun and against the Arabs and the British
"For it is through the mercy of fools that all Justice is lost"
Ramban

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Pathetic speech my dumb Satmur ghetto Rabbi gave
« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2008, 06:18:06 PM »
Now you are better able to "switch places" with the European Labor Zionists, and perhaps better understand their frustration which grew into contempt for their religious brethren who refused to even consider retaking Eretz Yisrael by force of arms; let alone consider physically moving there to live.

In the 1920's-1930's the European rabbis for the most part counseled and advised their co-religionists to "stay put", "study Torah", "don't fight back", and everything would be fine.

Don't misunderstand my comments above...I'm not excusing the behavior of the Labor Zionists...just pointing out that "when the chips were down" they had to go it alone and not count on Torah miracles to save European Jewry.



You make a good point. In fact, one of the greatest tests of faiths for religious holocaust survivors was dealing with the fact that every good loyal frum Jew who listened to the Gedolim, and therefore stayed in Europe, was killed while the most non religious anti-Torah people ignored the counsel of the Gedolim, moved to Israel or America and lived.

 Soo? Just because one group physically survived while another died physically doesn't show that one group ended up better then the other. If anything the opposite. In one group Jews died in the hands of goyim, which does a lot for a person in the world to come. (many things, like cleanse past sins, and bring someone to a high level because one died for being a Jew), while the other group (some, not all in that category),got everything in this world, for the few good they did, and will truly suffer for eternity. They got their high positions,- incharge of the country, or making millions here and their. - To those whom G-d hates, those who hate G-d, G-d doesn't delay his payment, pays then cash to their face to get ride of them.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline q_q_

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Re: Pathetic speech my dumb Satmur ghetto Rabbi gave
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2008, 02:54:49 AM »
Now you are better able to "switch places" with the European Labor Zionists, and perhaps better understand their frustration which grew into contempt for their religious brethren who refused to even consider retaking Eretz Yisrael by force of arms; let alone consider physically moving there to live.

In the 1920's-1930's the European rabbis for the most part counseled and advised their co-religionists to "stay put", "study Torah", "don't fight back", and everything would be fine.

Don't misunderstand my comments above...I'm not excusing the behavior of the Labor Zionists...just pointing out that "when the chips were down" they had to go it alone and not count on Torah miracles to save European Jewry.



You make a good point. In fact, one of the greatest tests of faiths for religious holocaust survivors was dealing with the fact that every good loyal frum Jew who listened to the Gedolim, and therefore stayed in Europe, was killed while the most non religious anti-Torah people ignored the counsel of the Gedolim, moved to Israel or America and lived.

or Britain, like my great grandfather. His many brothers were murdered.

I am sure many jews trying to get to israel were turned away.

And didn't Rabbi Weissmandl (an anti zionist), do alot, but have his efforts thwarted by labour zionists.. Who said something like.. the jews of europe are dust on the wheels of history.

the solution was moving to a place where the nazis weren't.  Not necessarily zionism. Not necessarily moving to israel..   
This is what concerns me.. At the moment, israel is one of the most dangerous places in the world for jews.

Offline kahaneloyalist

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Re: Pathetic speech my dumb Satmur ghetto Rabbi gave
« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2008, 04:19:31 AM »
Now you are better able to "switch places" with the European Labor Zionists, and perhaps better understand their frustration which grew into contempt for their religious brethren who refused to even consider retaking Eretz Yisrael by force of arms; let alone consider physically moving there to live.

In the 1920's-1930's the European rabbis for the most part counseled and advised their co-religionists to "stay put", "study Torah", "don't fight back", and everything would be fine.

Don't misunderstand my comments above...I'm not excusing the behavior of the Labor Zionists...just pointing out that "when the chips were down" they had to go it alone and not count on Torah miracles to save European Jewry.



You make a good point. In fact, one of the greatest tests of faiths for religious holocaust survivors was dealing with the fact that every good loyal frum Jew who listened to the Gedolim, and therefore stayed in Europe, was killed while the most non religious anti-Torah people ignored the counsel of the Gedolim, moved to Israel or America and lived.

or Britain, like my great grandfather. His many brothers were murdered.

I am sure many jews trying to get to israel were turned away.

And didn't Rabbi Weissmandl (an anti zionist), do alot, but have his efforts thwarted by labour zionists.. Who said something like.. the jews of europe are dust on the wheels of history.

the solution was moving to a place where the nazis weren't.  Not necessarily zionism. Not necessarily moving to israel..  
This is what concerns me.. At the moment, israel is one of the most dangerous places in the world for jews.

"Rabbi" Steven Weiss head of the Reform movement said the dust line not the labor Zionists 
"For it is through the mercy of fools that all Justice is lost"
Ramban

Offline judeanoncapta

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Re: Pathetic speech my dumb Satmur ghetto Rabbi gave
« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2008, 09:48:20 AM »
Now you are better able to "switch places" with the European Labor Zionists, and perhaps better understand their frustration which grew into contempt for their religious brethren who refused to even consider retaking Eretz Yisrael by force of arms; let alone consider physically moving there to live.

In the 1920's-1930's the European rabbis for the most part counseled and advised their co-religionists to "stay put", "study Torah", "don't fight back", and everything would be fine.

Don't misunderstand my comments above...I'm not excusing the behavior of the Labor Zionists...just pointing out that "when the chips were down" they had to go it alone and not count on Torah miracles to save European Jewry.



You make a good point. In fact, one of the greatest tests of faiths for religious holocaust survivors was dealing with the fact that every good loyal frum Jew who listened to the Gedolim, and therefore stayed in Europe, was killed while the most non religious anti-Torah people ignored the counsel of the Gedolim, moved to Israel or America and lived.

or Britain, like my great grandfather. His many brothers were murdered.

I am sure many jews trying to get to israel were turned away.

And didn't Rabbi Weissmandl (an anti zionist), do alot, but have his efforts thwarted by labour zionists.. Who said something like.. the jews of europe are dust on the wheels of history.

the solution was moving to a place where the nazis weren't.  Not necessarily zionism. Not necessarily moving to israel..   
This is what concerns me.. At the moment, israel is one of the most dangerous places in the world for jews.


Only because the Jews have allowed it to get that way. The situation can be changed if we change it. And btw, any safety that you in britain or I in the US enjoy is fleeting and can be taken away at any moment. That is the nature of Galuth, no rest for the weary.
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Offline q_q_

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Re: Pathetic speech my dumb Satmur ghetto Rabbi gave
« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2008, 11:07:20 AM »
Now you are better able to "switch places" with the European Labor Zionists, and perhaps better understand their frustration which grew into contempt for their religious brethren who refused to even consider retaking Eretz Yisrael by force of arms; let alone consider physically moving there to live.

In the 1920's-1930's the European rabbis for the most part counseled and advised their co-religionists to "stay put", "study Torah", "don't fight back", and everything would be fine.

Don't misunderstand my comments above...I'm not excusing the behavior of the Labor Zionists...just pointing out that "when the chips were down" they had to go it alone and not count on Torah miracles to save European Jewry.



You make a good point. In fact, one of the greatest tests of faiths for religious holocaust survivors was dealing with the fact that every good loyal frum Jew who listened to the Gedolim, and therefore stayed in Europe, was killed while the most non religious anti-Torah people ignored the counsel of the Gedolim, moved to Israel or America and lived.

or Britain, like my great grandfather. His many brothers were murdered.

I am sure many jews trying to get to israel were turned away.

And didn't Rabbi Weissmandl (an anti zionist), do alot, but have his efforts thwarted by labour zionists.. Who said something like.. the jews of europe are dust on the wheels of history.

the solution was moving to a place where the nazis weren't.  Not necessarily zionism. Not necessarily moving to israel..   
This is what concerns me.. At the moment, israel is one of the most dangerous places in the world for jews.


Only because the Jews have allowed it to get that way. The situation can be changed if we change it. And btw, any safety that you in britain or I in the US enjoy is fleeting and can be taken away at any moment. That is the nature of Galuth, no rest for the weary.

[warning, non zionist thoughts follow!] of a secular/common sense variety.

(not religious non zionist ones though... I don`t talk to that guy anymore, he knowingly allowed others to lie and manipulate in the paltalk room, just because they agreed with his position.  And he clearly could not answer your RAMBAN claim, and was a sore loser)

I don`t think that the holocaust appeared out of the blue without warning signs.

We don`t have any anti-semitic dictators running for government in britain, like in nazi germany.
Every British government is Tory or Labour, has been for years.

The bulk of the country is concerned not with jews, but with muslims.

Of course, if things change in britain like germany changed, then we are limited in how we can change it. We can only leave. That`s not a bad situation.

Jews got through the holocaust by moving from dangerous land to safe land such as america or britain or israel.

In Israel, I suppose many jews are trapped.. 
Whereas as britain is a member of the EU, we can go anywhere in europe.
(and there is that gemara in ketuvot around 111A, that if you go to israel you are not meant to leave)


Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: Pathetic speech my dumb Satmur ghetto Rabbi gave
« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2008, 11:41:53 AM »
Re:  "...the solution was moving to a place where the nazis weren't.  Not necessarily zionism. Not necessarily moving to israel..."

At its essence, Zionism is the Jewish Movement for National Liberation.

As such, it's purpose was not to move somewhere where there were no Nazis...Zionism preceded the development of Nazism by approximately 70 years.

It's purpose was to restore the Jew in his own Land, and in so doing resurrect the Jew as an independent and sovereign people determining their own destiny, fighting their own wars, laboring as farmers, fishermen, military generals, bus drivers, and yes...even pickpockets and prostitutes arrested by Jewish policemen and incarcerated in Jewish jails; to end once and for all the "Jew of the ghetto" and end "the Jew of the Yeshivah who believes that 'good Jews don't fight'".

As a result of the oppression, persecution, and second class status of the Jew in European history, Zionism formed its core philosophies around those of Socialism, which was a rejection of traditional monarchy/church social inequity, was at the time of Zionism's origins a truly "progressive" ideology, and was viewed by European Jewish youth as a new force which promised 'a better way of life' for Jews than could be expected by remaining in Christian Europe obsessed with Imperialist adventures and Colonial exploitations of Asian and African peoples.

To a great extent it has succeeded beyond its wildest expectations:  The ancient Jewish Homeland is reborn a lush garden of beauty where was once an abandoned and barren land.  Jewish Generals of the IDF command Jewish Brigades comprised of Jews who ended their long 2,000 year Exile from every corner of the globe by making aliyah to Eretz Yisrael.  Jewish agriculturalists have turned the desolate swamps into hothouses, fields full of every vegetable and grain, with advanced scientfic irrigation.  Jewish busdrivers pick up Jewish workers and laborers and drive them into Jewish metropolitan cities, as well as to the eternal capitol city Jerusalem.  Jewish fighter jets emblazoned with the blue Magen David defend the Jewish Nation.

Zionist shortcomings?  Too many to even start listing them.

Jews are now safer and better off than they were in Europe and the USSR?  Without question, yes.

And all of these accomplishments in only 60 years, during which five major wars have been fought against a numerically advantaged enemy!

It is what it is...just like every other country...full of contradictions, disappointments, corruption, problems, as well as much that is beautiful and worthwhile.

Oh yes, forgot to mention...The Jews took their 5000 year old language Hebrew, removed it from the liturgical bookshelf, and revived it as a strong, living, and vital language....Modern Hebrew.

We all know what needs to be done next, but I thought that a post like this might serve to revive our spirits and optimism...The Jewish People are a living Miracle...the envy and the wonder of the entire world!...We live and refuse to perish...Every Empire and nation has fallen...while Israel lives.  We should all count our many blessings and praise G-d for what He has done with us! 







Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: Pathetic speech my dumb Satmur ghetto Rabbi gave
« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2008, 12:13:23 PM »
For the first time in 2000 years, the Jewish People have retaken by force their ancestral homeland, and have made it possible for this current generation to "return home"; to actually make reality the prayers and dreams of millions of Jews since the fall of the Second Temple.

Forget all the rest, as the statement above is all you need to know.

So, Jew, are you going to face your ancestors in The World to Come with pride and honor?

Or, will you be ashamed to face them, because YOU had the opportunity to fulfill 2000 years of Jewish prayers to G-d to allow us to return HOME --and instead chose to remain in Exile because you feared the Arabs more than you loved G-d's Commandment to "TAKE POSSESSION OF THE LAND WHICH I HAVE GIVEN YOU!"


"NEXT YEAR IN JERUSALEM"!

Offline habiru

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Re: Pathetic speech my dumb Satmur ghetto Rabbi gave
« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2008, 12:24:23 PM »
Yoel of Satmar told his followers in hungary to stay put while Hitler was warming up his war machine to invade Hungary. He himself fled and left most of his followers to perish. Draw your own conclusions.

Offline q_q_

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Re: Pathetic speech my dumb Satmur ghetto Rabbi gave
« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2008, 01:09:22 PM »
For the first time in 2000 years, the Jewish People have retaken by force their ancestral homeland, and have made it possible for this current generation to "return home"; to actually make reality the prayers and dreams of millions of Jews since the fall of the Second Temple.

Forget all the rest, as the statement above is all you need to know.

So, Jew, are you going to face your ancestors in The World to Come with pride and honor?

Or, will you be ashamed to face them, because YOU had the opportunity to fulfill 2000 years of Jewish prayers to G-d to allow us to return HOME --and instead chose to remain in Exile because you feared the Arabs more than you loved G-d's Commandment to "TAKE POSSESSION OF THE LAND WHICH I HAVE GIVEN YOU!"


"NEXT YEAR IN JERUSALEM"!

Well for all that poetry..

There you are.

The point is that in the present times, israel is far more dangerous than america or britain..

A religious reason is a good reason to go there.. To fulfill G-d`s whatever the risk.

But it is not safe.. As far as safety is concerned, Israel would have been the perfect solution to the holocaust, but it came too late.

Bravery and religious fervour and perhaps the hope of 2000 years, are reasons to live in israel. (these are the reasons you give). But not safety.

This is why I add comment when those say
"Oh, the gedolim said stay , and jews stayed and died... "
Indeed.. And they would have lived had they moved to israel (or britain or america - or india!). Relatively speaking, israel was safe!

But this is a very different situation, europe is relatively safer than israel, by a mile. (and I mentioned for example, that britain isn`t going to be getting an anti-semitic dictator any time soon)..
And since they are obsessed with muslims at the moment, they aren`t even blaming jews much. It`s very safe compared to israel. And since the holocaust, we are paranoid and know the signs.


Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: Pathetic speech my dumb Satmur ghetto Rabbi gave
« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2008, 05:53:03 PM »
q_q_:  "...But this is a very different situation, europe is relatively safer than israel, by a mile. (and I mentioned for example, that britain isn`t going to be getting an anti-semitic dictator any time soon)..
And since they are obsessed with muslims at the moment, they aren`t even blaming jews much. It`s very safe compared to israel. And since the holocaust, we are paranoid and know the signs..."
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q_q_ ,

I can not change anyone's mind about how "safe" Jews are by living in Israel.

I do know one thing, however, and it is this:

Should Israel cease to exist, the Jewish People might as well march to the Baptismal font and disappear, because nowhere on the planet would be safe for Jews ever again.

My personal belief, is that already there is no longer a safe place for Jews, but only in Israel are there Jews able to take up arms and defend their fellow Jews.

If total destruction is our fate, I much prefer to go down fighting with my fellow Jews, than to be 'rounded up' in the dead of night to be shipped to the camps.

Neither Rabbi Meir Kahane, nor Chaim Ben Pesach, has ever advocated for Jews to pick up and run from country to country, wherever they seem to feel "a little less endangered".

Such was the fate of the Jew in Exile..."the proverbial Wandering Jew"...fulfilling the curse leveled upon the Jews at Mt. Sinai.

If you prefer moving to, or remaining in the UK, or perhaps another country rather than feel unsafe in Israel, I can not persuade you otherwise.

But as the old adage goes, "You can run, but you can't hide."


Offline q_q_

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Re: Pathetic speech my dumb Satmur ghetto Rabbi gave
« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2008, 08:06:00 PM »
q_q_:  "...But this is a very different situation, europe is relatively safer than israel, by a mile. (and I mentioned for example, that britain isn`t going to be getting an anti-semitic dictator any time soon)..
And since they are obsessed with muslims at the moment, they aren`t even blaming jews much. It`s very safe compared to israel. And since the holocaust, we are paranoid and know the signs..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

q_q_ ,

I can not change anyone's mind about how "safe" Jews are by living in Israel.

I do know one thing, however, and it is this:

Should Israel cease to exist, the Jewish People might as well march to the Baptismal font and disappear, because nowhere on the planet would be safe for Jews ever again.

My personal belief, is that already there is no longer a safe place for Jews, but only in Israel are there Jews able to take up arms and defend their fellow Jews.

If total destruction is our fate, I much prefer to go down fighting with my fellow Jews, than to be 'rounded up' in the dead of night to be shipped to the camps.

Neither Rabbi Meir Kahane, nor Chaim Ben Pesach, has ever advocated for Jews to pick up and run from country to country, wherever they seem to feel "a little less endangered".

Such was the fate of the Jew in Exile..."the proverbial Wandering Jew"...fulfilling the curse leveled upon the Jews at Mt. Sinai.

If you prefer moving to, or remaining in the UK, or perhaps another country rather than feel unsafe in Israel, I can not persuade you otherwise.

But as the old adage goes, "You can run, but you can't hide."



Israel does have that advantage that it is a guard against another holocaust. Jews there will not be helpless unarmed, rounded up and murdered..

Nuked maybe, G-d forbid.   But for something like that, jews are essentially unarmed, rounded up, and murdered.