magic in Judaisim

[shimon]

can someone help me understand the use of magic in Judaisim. I know Rambam is opposed to the belief in it and he doesnt believe it exists but then how come the gemara says that illusions are ok but real magic is not so obviously there used to be magic. Also the Gemara brings up many instances of rabbis using magic to bring fruit from one side of the field to Another.So can Lubab or Tzvi Ben Roshel or other chachamim help me with this issue.

p.s The Gemara also says that the ability to do magic is a requirement to be in the sanhedrin, just as being a noble,bearded,g-d fearing, smart is

[Boeregeneraal]

Jews practice magic ?!

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I dont know if "magic" is the right word. It has different meanings one can think of. Technically using a cell phone can be looked upon as magic, or the same with the splitting of the sea. All in all we should firmly place in our hearts and minds that their is One G-d who is incharge of everything. 
 Their is also a prohibition of sorcery and witchcraft, and its a commandment for the Sanhedrin to Judge and execute a witch, so thus their had to be witches and sorcerers for that to happen (their is also a story of it). Their is a level of "power" that the other side has, but just because it exists doesn't mean one is allowed to go and use it, that includes communicating with the dead, deamons etc.
  About the illusions- that means that if you for example see a magic show, you know that it is a card illusion so many hold that it is allowed as long as your not giving the person the thought that they are somewhat devine.
  Also in Torah magic or miracles doesn't prove anything and one cant say im a prophet because one can show you these "magic" miracles or whatever. 
  The Hachamim knew a lot about the secrets of the Torah and since everything is written in it, they were able to know a lot of the information about the nature of the World and the codes to it. For example the smallest student of the Talmud knew how to ressurrect the dead. BUT with that said they rarly used their powers, or (better word) information, because they were G-d fearing. Also they recognized it as coming from G-d, so for example when a very big Rightious person prays for rain, yes G-d many times answered their prayers and immedietly gave rain, but they prayed to G-d for it, and G-d many times says that He listines to the rightious sometimes even agains't His own decree (for example G-d says I will destroy the Jewish nation, and Moshe says no, and G-d listins to him).
  Also with that example you bring, it also proves that "Lo Bishemayim" - not in the heavens. And that miracles dont prove who is right or wrong. Rebbe Eliezer and the Hachamim had an argument in Torah law, and Rebbe Eliezer said if I am right may this tree move from one side to the other, it happened, then he said..... until he said let the walls of this Beit Midrash collapse, while they were collapsing Rabbi Yoshua said go back, so then for a long time the walls were in the middle because of the 2 commands. Then came a heavenly voice that said that Rebbe Eliezers opinion is correct, but then Rebbe Yoshua said, the Torah is not in the heavens and when G-d gave the Torah He said go by the majority of the Hachamim, and he was correct and that is the opinion that was used. 
 About "magic" as requirement to be on Sanhedrin, I dont know, where did you hear that from? (maybe you are speaking about them knowing all the 70 languages?)

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "...Jews practice magic ?!"

Sure!

Haven't you ever seen a Jew pull a rabbit out of his yamulke?

[shimon]

I dont know if "magic" is the right word. It has different meanings one can think of. Technically using a cell phone can be looked upon as magic, or the same with the splitting of the sea. All in all we should firmly place in our hearts and minds that their is One G-d who is incharge of everything. 
 Their is also a prohibition of sorcery and witchcraft, and its a commandment for the Sanhedrin to Judge and execute a witch, so thus their had to be witches and sorcerers for that to happen (their is also a story of it). Their is a level of "power" that the other side has, but just because it exists doesn't mean one is allowed to go and use it, that includes communicating with the dead, deamons etc.
  About the illusions- that means that if you for example see a magic show, you know that it is a card illusion so many hold that it is allowed as long as your not giving the person the thought that they are somewhat devine.
  Also in Torah magic or miracles doesn't prove anything and one cant say im a prophet because one can show you these "magic" miracles or whatever. 
  The Hachamim knew a lot about the secrets of the Torah and since everything is written in it, they were able to know a lot of the information about the nature of the World and the codes to it. For example the smallest student of the Talmud knew how to ressurrect the dead. BUT with that said they rarly used their powers, or (better word) information, because they were G-d fearing. Also they recognized it as coming from G-d, so for example when a very big Rightious person prays for rain, yes G-d many times answered their prayers and immedietly gave rain, but they prayed to G-d for it, and G-d many times says that He listines to the rightious sometimes even agains't His own decree (for example G-d says I will destroy the Jewish nation, and Moshe says no, and G-d listins to him).
  Also with that example you bring, it also proves that "Lo Bishemayim" - not in the heavens. And that miracles dont prove who is right or wrong. Rebbe Eliezer and the Hachamim had an argument in Torah law, and Rebbe Eliezer said if I am right may this tree move from one side to the other, it happened, then he said..... until he said let the walls of this Beit Midrash collapse, while they were collapsing Rabbi Yoshua said go back, so then for a long time the walls were in the middle because of the 2 commands. Then came a heavenly voice that said that Rebbe Eliezers opinion is correct, but then Rebbe Yoshua said, the Torah is not in the heavens and when G-d gave the Torah He said go by the majority of the Hachamim, and he was correct and that is the opinion that was used. 
 About "magic" as requirement to be on Sanhedrin, I dont know, where did you hear that from? (maybe you are speaking about them knowing all the 70 languages?)

thanks alot tzadik here is a translation i got ( look at the last sentence)


According to R. Jose b. Ḥalafta, the members of the Great Bet Din were required to possess the following qualifications: scholarship, modesty, and popularity among their fellow men (Tosef., Ḥag. ii. 9; Sanh. 88b). According to an interpretation in Sifre, Num. 92 (ed. Friedmann, p. 25b), they had also to be strong and courageous. Only such were eligible, moreover, as had filled three offices of gradually increasing dignity, namely, those of local judge, and member successively of two magistracies at Jerusalem (Jose b. Ḥalafta, l.c.). R. Johanan, an amora of the third century, enumerates the qualifications of the members of the Sanhedrin as follows: they must be tall, of imposing appearance, and of advanced age; and they must be learned and must understand foreign languages as well as some of the arts of the necromancer (Sanh. 19a).

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Dan must you purposly try to ruin all civil Torah discussions?  Anyway I thought that preaching other faiths is prohibited on this forum, and I hope your deragatory statements agains't the Zohar, Kabbalah and Hachamim shouldn't be tolerated as well.

[Lisa]

Dan, on this forum we work with good people of all religions.  So mocking other people's religion will not be tolerated here.  That also goes for accusing members of idolatry.  Therefore I'm removing your post.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "...they must be learned and must understand foreign languages as well as some of the arts of the necromancer (Sanh. 19a)."

By this translation into English, it says that the Sanhedrin members must understand foreign languages, and understand (as opposed to practice, which is something entirely different) some of the arts of the necromancer.

A necromancer is someone who practices "spiritualism", as it is known here in the U.S.A. .

In other words, a necromancer is one who makes claims to be able to access the deceased who are now in the spirit world, and in so doing ask them questions on behalf of the living regarding future events, etc. .

"Understanding some arts of the necromancer" would require a judge with the knowledge and abilities to expose the fraudulent methods used by necromancers to profit from the gullible and the bereaved, who often were so full of grief that they lost all sense of reason, hoping for any contacts with those they mourned.

Even more so, the judge able to discern "the arts of necromancy" would also be able to discern genuine prophecy if and when it should manifest itself within Israel, because a prophet was usually considered by those less learned to be "demon possessed" or "insane" when speaking words of prophecy to the public.

The paragraph above is of my own interpretation, and I base it on the facts of our prophets usually finding rejection and persecution by the very people to whom they spoke prophesy.  It would require "the wisdom of Solomon" for judges during that time to be able to distinguish between a true prophet walking the streets barefoot and unkempt, speaking the Word of G-d in a manner unintelligible to most people, vs the innumerable practitioners of the occult arts who traveled the caravan routes earning a living in ancient times by tricking the gullible into paying them "to speak of their future, etc.".

[q_q_]

can someone help me understand the use of magic in Judaisim. I know Rambam is opposed to the belief in it and he doesnt believe it exists but then how come the gemara says that illusions are ok but real magic is not so obviously there used to be magic. Also the Gemara brings up many instances of rabbis using magic to bring fruit from one side of the field to Another.So can Lubab or Tzvi Ben Roshel or other chachamim help me with this issue.

p.s The Gemara also says that the ability to do magic is a requirement to be in the sanhedrin, just as being a noble,bearded,g-d fearing, smart is

I spoke to somebody that agrees with the RAMBAM, he said that when the gemara refers to magic, it means illusions performed as if they are magic.  The RAMBAM would probably say that the magic in egypt was illusion too. (and I think this was actually one of the RAMBAN`s criticisms of the RAMBAM, he said can he seriously say that the torah says the magic done by the egyptians, spoken of in the tenach, was illusion?!!) For particular cases in gemara, this is really a question for a maimonidean.. But they might answer all the same way. "illusion".

Most jews today, are not maimonideans. This is an area where very few jews agree with the RAMBAM.  And they actually struggle to explain how the RAMBAM could held such a position. 

Tzvi is very religious, but he is no chacham.  If you could spell, you might have noticed.    He is very passionate about torah, and so he does know stuff, more every day no doubt.
Lulab must be very knowledgeable, since I think he even said that he has smicha.
Both are very far from being maimonideans. 

[Lubab]

  You call that parody of the New Testament preaching?  Maybe in your case it is sparking some faith because you have a tendency toward idolatry, but most people would not take it seriously because it is making fun of the New Testament and magic.  It's actually the Zohar, Kabbalah, and the Tipshim that advocate them that should not be tolerated.

DanBenNoah obviously knows better than every major Posek of the past 10 generations if he thinks the Zohar and Kabbalah shouldn't be tolerated and he's just called all those generations of great Rabbinic sages "tipshim" (fools). This attack on our great Torah sages should never be allowed here as it is a particularly vile form of anti-semitism.

And make no mistake about it: "one who does not believe in the hidden parts of the Torah publically denies even the revealed parts of the Torah privately." The Vilna Gaon

Translation: You can bet your bottom dollar that this DanBenNoah does not truly belive in the the splitting of the sea, the 10 plauges or even really that G-d gave us the Torah at Sinai. If one denies part of the Torah, he does not really belieive in any of it. We are dealing with a first class heretic who takes great pleasure in bashing our sages of righteous memory. His only saving grace is that he is utterly ignorant of even the basics of Torah which prevents him from being a true heretic in the legal sense of the word.
 

[q_q_]

Jews practice magic ?!

Amongst Kabbalists, there is a belief that "good magic" is possible,  
It`s not really magic.. Some examples,

An evil decree is declared on a town, and a a very righteous chassidic rabbi prays very hard for 20 hours,  and a decree is overturned..  His chassidim ask him what happened.  He says as he prayed his soul went up and he argued in the heavenly court that the judgement be overturned.. And it was overturned.

Or,  a rabbi through his prayer and knowledge of the spiritual realms, managed to figure out why peoples` prayers were not being answered..

There was many chassidic stories like that.  There is a book "Not just stories" by rabbi twersky, that mentions some.    Just stories, and as rabbi twersky says, it is foolish to believe they are all made up, and foolish to believe every detail.

There is a story about the Baba sali(a great kabbalist), which I heard from a guy whose father and grandfather were in iraq at the time..  And he heard it from them.   A muslim was beating a jew,   he shouted out, the baba sali came out mumbled something, and the muslim was hospitalised.

There`s the story of the golem of prague, and now there is even a model of the golem in prague, no doubt for tourism.. But to mark the legend..

But the arizal said.. That for some mystical reason (like , we no longer have the ashes of the red heifer), we are not pure, and we are not allowed to do "practical kabbalah".. this working in the spiritual realms to fix things in the physical world.   So nobody even tries to do it..  You do here stories of prayer , and rabbis knowing things they could not possibly have known.. without divine inspriation.. Rabbis receiving ruach hakodesh. For example, stories involving the chazon ish, or the lubavitcher rebbe, where people have told thme they are seeing a doctor over a tumour, and the rabbi told them there was nothing wrong and not to bother. Or the rabbi told them what doctor to see.  

Ruach HaKodesh, is described by the ramchal, in one of his books.. His works are philosophical and very popular, he claims he received teaching from an angel..

We must remember, as, I think Hillel said, we are a nation of prophets and apprentice prophets.

According to rabbi aryeh kaplan - "handbook of jewish thought", we had "schools" where people trained so as to be receptive of prophecy.. And even the RAMBAM describes the different levels of prophecy - 11 levels - , in "the guide".   Ruach hakodesh is just below the prophecy of the prophets in the bible book of prophets. According to the rambam, in the guide, it is the level that (all?) things in  ketuvuim were written..

Once you believe in G-d and miracles and angels,  You are inherently believing in a mystical realm..   so it is difficult to say there is no magic - if you use a wide definition of magic.

[q_q_]

Danbennoah is effectively a Troll

don`t feed the troll... Don`t let him litter this thread with his garbage.

We have all argued with that idiot danbennoah already.
Don`t do so here since it is at the expense of contributing to this thread.

[Lubab]

Okay q_q.

With regards to the thread.

If someone is very familiar with the inner working of science he can do things that would appear to laymen to be "magic" when in truth they just come from a really good understanding of reality and how it can be manipulated. Since kabbalists are masters of the stages G-d used to create the world they are (as a side effect) truly great scientists as well that could manipulate reality in ways that the secular sceintists haven't yet been able to figure out how to do (but are quickly advancing to be able to do in the near future...). Throughout history good and evil people have had this sort of advanced knowledge. .

But most of what people call magic is "achizat anyaim" which means "catching of the eye" i.e. slight of hand to make you think you experienced something that you really didn't.

[takebackourtemple]

   I think that most of the things that magic claims to be able to do can be done, but I wouldn't hold my breath for it. Something like teleportation which is virtually impossible in our environment has been demonstrated at a molecular level. The odds of a person teleporting? Virtually impossible. As small as it is, there is a mathematical probability for a human being being able to teleport or walk through walls or perform all sorts of impossible things.
   One thing that I will note is that the universe is very complex, and there are many forces that we just cannot comprehend. To call them magic is one of two things, deception or the failure to understand what is really going on.
   In terms of biblical accounts, I believe that what happened really happened and was not slight of hand. When Moshe placed the staff, it was a real staff that turned into a real snake and turned back into a real staff when he picked it back up. I don't know the explanation, but believe that it is possible that hashem rearranged the molecular particles to perform the transformations.

[q_q_]

<snip>In terms of biblical accounts, I believe that what happened really happened and was not slight of hand. When Moshe placed the staff, it was a real staff that turned into a real snake <snip>

sure, I don`t think anybody claims the miracles were slight of hands. The disagreement, between RAMBAM and others, is over any other magic, such as the magic of the egyptians.

[MarZutra]

To MassuhD, that was a fabulous response.  I, specifically, am staying out of this debate/discussion as I know where my weakness lay specifically outside of the purely historical perspective.   

Lubab, have you ever read the book "The Secret Teachings of All Ages" written by a well learned Gnostic and 33rd degree Freemason Manley P. Hall?

Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Teachings-All-Ages-Readers/dp/1585422509/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209603635&sr=8-2

E-book: http://books.google.ca/books?id=FDSab8rWZScC&dq=pdf+%22secret+teachings+of+all+ages%22&pg=PP1&ots=lYgnU119eK&sig=uHoMAxZxbf3vvIW1ykSxlT6B06Q&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=pdf+%22secret+teachings+of+all+ages%22&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail

With your background I feel you will be very interested in this sort of stuff as you will be able to both pick out its molestations and too where they have taken teachings directly from Zohar/kabalah knowledge... 

[Lubab]

   I think that most of the things that magic claims to be able to do can be done, but I wouldn't hold my breath for it. Something like teleportation which is virtually impossible in our environment has been demonstrated at a molecular level. The odds of a person teleporting? Virtually impossible. As small as it is, there is a mathematical probability for a human being being able to teleport or walk through walls or perform all sorts of impossible things.
   One thing that I will note is that the universe is very complex, and there are many forces that we just cannot comprehend. To call them magic is one of two things, deception or the failure to understand what is really going on.
   In terms of biblical accounts, I believe that what happened really happened and was not slight of hand. When Moshe placed the staff, it was a real staff that turned into a real snake and turned back into a real staff when he picked it back up. I don't know the explanation, but believe that it is possible that hashem rearranged the molecular particles to perform the transformations.

As far as walking through walls there really isn't a very good scientific reason why we shouldn't be able to do that as when we look closely at matter at the atomic level we find that it is almost entirely empty space!

[Lubab]

I haven't read that book though I'd love to. I haven't had time to read much of anything.

[q_q_]

   I think that most of the things that magic claims to be able to do can be done, but I wouldn't hold my breath for it. Something like teleportation which is virtually impossible in our environment has been demonstrated at a molecular level. The odds of a person teleporting? Virtually impossible. As small as it is, there is a mathematical probability for a human being being able to teleport or walk through walls or perform all sorts of impossible things.
   One thing that I will note is that the universe is very complex, and there are many forces that we just cannot comprehend. To call them magic is one of two things, deception or the failure to understand what is really going on.
   In terms of biblical accounts, I believe that what happened really happened and was not slight of hand. When Moshe placed the staff, it was a real staff that turned into a real snake and turned back into a real staff when he picked it back up. I don't know the explanation, but believe that it is possible that hashem rearranged the molecular particles to perform the transformations.

As far as walking through walls there really isn't a very good scientific reason why we shouldn't be able to do that as when we look closely at matter at the atomic level we find that it is almost entirely empty space!

the force that holds your molecules together might be a problem!

[Boeregeneraal]

ehm...the way I understand it is this:

H-shem opened the sea. This was NOT 'magic' but the POWER of our loving Father!

I believe that magic is the devils inferior power, and could be seen in the works of the egyptian priests.

What is the Kabbalah?

anyway, just my view of understanding

[takebackourtemple]

   I think that most of the things that magic claims to be able to do can be done, but I wouldn't hold my breath for it. Something like teleportation which is virtually impossible in our environment has been demonstrated at a molecular level. The odds of a person teleporting? Virtually impossible. As small as it is, there is a mathematical probability for a human being being able to teleport or walk through walls or perform all sorts of impossible things.
   One thing that I will note is that the universe is very complex, and there are many forces that we just cannot comprehend. To call them magic is one of two things, deception or the failure to understand what is really going on.
   In terms of biblical accounts, I believe that what happened really happened and was not slight of hand. When Moshe placed the staff, it was a real staff that turned into a real snake and turned back into a real staff when he picked it back up. I don't know the explanation, but believe that it is possible that hashem rearranged the molecular particles to perform the transformations.

As far as walking through walls there really isn't a very good scientific reason why we shouldn't be able to do that as when we look closely at matter at the atomic level we find that it is almost entirely empty space!

the force that holds your molecules together might be a problem!

   You answered it before I could. Crashing into something is electrical reaction. If you run into the wall too fast, you break some of these bonds and splat. I take it that if a particle has enough energy for the bond to be insignificant the particle can pass right through. It would also have to be fast enough that it does not have enough time to intefer with the integrity of the bond.
   I actually had tunneling in mind rather than all the free space. Tunneling is the process where a particle does not have enough energy to make it through a barrier, but manages to anyway. Sort of like using only 10 pounds or force to lift a 100 pound weight.

[Ben Yehuda]

It is interesting that many things that seem or seemed magical ultimately have an explanation in science, but, then again, how does one explain the presence of science? I imagine it was G-d who created science as the framework upon which the universe works.

Anyway I am no Torah scholar, and please excuse my ignorance in these matters.

[q_q_]

It is interesting that many things that seem or seemed magical ultimately have an explanation in science, but, then again, how does one explain the presence of science? I imagine it was G-d who created science as the framework upon which the universe works.

Anyway I am no Torah scholar, and please excuse my ignorance in these matters.

G-d creates the universe continuously, and runs the world in a way consistent with what we know as "nature". runs the world according to logical rules.. So that we can plan/operate/work/do/create things, within the world.
 
I have heard it said that G-d creates the world according to "nature", so as to test us by trying to fool us into thinking that the world runs without him. I don't like that idea though.. and I don't know if it has any basis.. any precedent..

[Ben Yehuda]

It is interesting that many things that seem or seemed magical ultimately have an explanation in science, but, then again, how does one explain the presence of science? I imagine it was G-d who created science as the framework upon which the universe works.

Anyway I am no Torah scholar, and please excuse my ignorance in these matters.

G-d creates the universe continuously, and runs the world in a way consistent with what we know as "nature". runs the world according to logical rules.. So that we can plan/operate/work/do/create things, within the world.
 
I have heard it said that G-d creates the world according to "nature", so as to test us by trying to fool us into thinking that the world runs without him. I don't like that idea though.. and I don't know if it has any basis.. any precedent..

Thanks for your response.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

G-d created "nature" in order for their to be a certain order in the world. Imagine their being gravity today and tomorrow their is no more gravity. Or also to determine the Halachic day a person was born (if lets say the sun would come up randomly everyday) and to know which is the 8th day in order to have the brit Milah. And many more examples,
 And Boere- Splitting the sea for G-d and making the sun come up today in the mouring isn't that much of a difficulty (I need to phrase it better, but you know what I mean). Its not that their is nature and then G-d has to do something "miraculous", but that everything every milli millil (infenito) second runs according to His Will.