Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
magic in Judaisim
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
Dan must you purposly try to ruin all civil Torah discussions? ::) Anyway I thought that preaching other faiths is prohibited on this forum, and I hope your deragatory statements agains't the Zohar, Kabbalah and Hachamim shouldn't be tolerated as well.
Lisa:
Dan, on this forum we work with good people of all religions. So mocking other people's religion will not be tolerated here. That also goes for accusing members of idolatry. Therefore I'm removing your post.
MassuhDGoodName:
Re: "...they must be learned and must understand foreign languages as well as some of the arts of the necromancer (Sanh. 19a)."
By this translation into English, it says that the Sanhedrin members must understand foreign languages, and understand (as opposed to practice, which is something entirely different) some of the arts of the necromancer.
A necromancer is someone who practices "spiritualism", as it is known here in the U.S.A. .
In other words, a necromancer is one who makes claims to be able to access the deceased who are now in the spirit world, and in so doing ask them questions on behalf of the living regarding future events, etc. .
"Understanding some arts of the necromancer" would require a judge with the knowledge and abilities to expose the fraudulent methods used by necromancers to profit from the gullible and the bereaved, who often were so full of grief that they lost all sense of reason, hoping for any contacts with those they mourned.
Even more so, the judge able to discern "the arts of necromancy" would also be able to discern genuine prophecy if and when it should manifest itself within Israel, because a prophet was usually considered by those less learned to be "demon possessed" or "insane" when speaking words of prophecy to the public.
The paragraph above is of my own interpretation, and I base it on the facts of our prophets usually finding rejection and persecution by the very people to whom they spoke prophesy. It would require "the wisdom of Solomon" for judges during that time to be able to distinguish between a true prophet walking the streets barefoot and unkempt, speaking the Word of G-d in a manner unintelligible to most people, vs the innumerable practitioners of the occult arts who traveled the caravan routes earning a living in ancient times by tricking the gullible into paying them "to speak of their future, etc.".
q_q_:
--- Quote from: shimon on April 29, 2008, 09:25:44 PM ---can someone help me understand the use of magic in Judaisim. I know Rambam is opposed to the belief in it and he doesnt believe it exists but then how come the gemara says that illusions are ok but real magic is not so obviously there used to be magic. Also the Gemara brings up many instances of rabbis using magic to bring fruit from one side of the field to Another.So can Lubab or Tzvi Ben Roshel or other chachamim help me with this issue.
p.s The Gemara also says that the ability to do magic is a requirement to be in the sanhedrin, just as being a noble,bearded,g-d fearing, smart is
--- End quote ---
I spoke to somebody that agrees with the RAMBAM, he said that when the gemara refers to magic, it means illusions performed as if they are magic. The RAMBAM would probably say that the magic in egypt was illusion too. (and I think this was actually one of the RAMBAN`s criticisms of the RAMBAM, he said can he seriously say that the torah says the magic done by the egyptians, spoken of in the tenach, was illusion?!!) For particular cases in gemara, this is really a question for a maimonidean.. But they might answer all the same way. "illusion".
Most jews today, are not maimonideans. This is an area where very few jews agree with the RAMBAM. And they actually struggle to explain how the RAMBAM could held such a position.
Tzvi is very religious, but he is no chacham. If you could spell, you might have noticed. He is very passionate about torah, and so he does know stuff, more every day no doubt.
Lulab must be very knowledgeable, since I think he even said that he has smicha.
Both are very far from being maimonideans.
Lubab:
--- Quote from: DanBenNoah on April 29, 2008, 11:21:14 PM --- ;D You call that parody of the New Testament preaching? Maybe in your case it is sparking some faith because you have a tendency toward idolatry, but most people would not take it seriously because it is making fun of the New Testament and magic. It's actually the Zohar, Kabbalah, and the Tipshim that advocate them that should not be tolerated.
--- End quote ---
DanBenNoah obviously knows better than every major Posek of the past 10 generations if he thinks the Zohar and Kabbalah shouldn't be tolerated and he's just called all those generations of great Rabbinic sages "tipshim" (fools). This attack on our great Torah sages should never be allowed here as it is a particularly vile form of anti-semitism.
And make no mistake about it: "one who does not believe in the hidden parts of the Torah publically denies even the revealed parts of the Torah privately." The Vilna Gaon
Translation: You can bet your bottom dollar that this DanBenNoah does not truly belive in the the splitting of the sea, the 10 plauges or even really that G-d gave us the Torah at Sinai. If one denies part of the Torah, he does not really belieive in any of it. We are dealing with a first class heretic who takes great pleasure in bashing our sages of righteous memory. His only saving grace is that he is utterly ignorant of even the basics of Torah which prevents him from being a true heretic in the legal sense of the word.
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